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CYBret

We're Not General Anymore

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Likely done to eliminate the reasoning that the General Forum was a good place for off-topic discussions.

 

oh yea - I LOVE GEOCACHING! ;)

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What an innovative way to fix the problem. Yeah, no one should have anything to complain about now.

 

If this is for Geocaching topics, why do we need any of the other topics now?

 

Good grief. 87227_9300.gif

 

*****

Edited by Jomarac5

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And what are all hte other areas related to? I would guess..........GEOCACHING!

Edited by woodsters

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Can you talk about GPSr's in a non geocaching way or only as they pertain to geocaching?

 

What about ammo cans?

 

[Dangit ;) ...geocaching]

Edited by ChrisCindy

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What does this discussion have to do with Geocaching? Shouldn't it be moved to the newly named Geocaching.com Web Site forum?

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Wellllll, that'll about rap it up for the abject silliness thread then...

 

Geocaching.

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Tattle tale....or is it spelled tell or tail? ;)

 

Geocaching!

 

See we say geocaching so our discussion is indeed about geocaching.

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Will this even appear on the forum? I hope so coz I REALLY don't want a warning or a ban.

 

This is based on personal observation and is a strictly personal analysis of that observation. I speak (write, type) from the aspect of one who has been involved as a moderator of a forum or two.

 

When a forum reaches a point of attracting a large number of contributors it naturally follows that a percentage of those contributors will be of a type who like to challenge 'authority' in one way or another - to go against the grain. These people tend to be the innovative thinkers - the ones who come up with the new and fresh approaches in what ever the subject of the forum may be.

 

By discouraging such people from contributing the forum subject becomes diluted by having the same subjects discussed again and again and again to the point of (yawn) nausia..... (picking on no one, I pick an example purely at random - 'Post a picture of your caching dog' - another, 'Best cache you ever found')

 

These 'authority challengers' are the people who will take this pastime to the next level, all be it that their 'way out' ideas need to be watered down some by the bulk of forum members. The seeds planted by those people are what is required if geocaching is to change. (grow - improve - evolve)

Such people as these are the pushers, the innovators, the fresh thinkers who will keep the concept growing.

 

Were this MY forum, I would be widening the catchment to allow the, so called, off topic discussion that has been requested. This focusing of the forum seems to be a good way to loose input from a valuable resource.

I have found that, because of what brings people to a particular web site to begin with, a commonality of interest, the off topic area becomes a wonderful spawning ground for ideas. These ideas then, naturally, move to the more mainstream areas of the forum where they are discussed, changed, or what ever, for the common good.

 

Many of the acrimonious postings I have seen here in recent times have been about the absence of just such a facility on this forum. While that is no justification in its self to open a new aspect of the forum, I do feel that, together with the thoughts expressed above, it would be reasonable to ask TPTB to give it

another moment of thought.

 

To repeat - this is a strictly personal observation of a situation and is NOT an attack on anyone or any entity.

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Yeah, what he/she said. No, I'm not calling anyone a transvestite, just trying to be gender balanced.

 

Geocaching.

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Were this MY forum, I would be widening the catchment to allow the, so called, off topic discussion that has been requested. This focusing of the forum seems to be a good way to loose input from a valuable resource.

 

I have found that, because of what brings people to a particular web site to begin with, a commonality of interest, the off topic area becomes a wonderful spawning ground for ideas. These ideas then, naturally, move to the more mainstream areas of the forum where they are discussed, changed, or what ever, for the common good.

I have requested and suggested an "off-topic" section be added many times. There's only so many ways to describe how to hide an ammo box.

 

For geocaching, of course. ;)

 

BTW... the new, "friendlier" "rolling eyes" icon doesn't nearly refect the amount of sarcasm it should. And used to.

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My favourite rolling eyes smiley is from the old geocaching.com forums.

 

It looks like this: 87227_9300.gif

 

It's the best geocaching smiley. I like it. I like it a lot.

 

*****

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Excellent post about the geocaching forums bug&snake!

 

Well worth reading a few times.

 

*****

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Excellent post about the geocaching forums bug&snake!

 

Well worth reading a few times.

 

*****

Thanx - that's just the sort of thing that goes through my thoughts while I am out geocaching.....

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I do feel that, together with the thoughts expressed above, it would be reasonable to ask TPTB to give it

another moment of thought.

The moderators and cache approvers discussed this at length and decided not to create an off-topic area.

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Seneca wrote:

What does this discussion have to do with Geocaching? Shouldn't it be moved to the newly named Geocaching.com Web Site forum?

Actually, I think this topic is very well suited for the "Geocaching.com Topics" forum as it is a general discussion about the forums (which are directly related to geocaching), and is not specifically about the geocaching.com website.

 

My quess is that the admins would rather have this topic in the lesser viewed Geocaching.com Web Site forum so that it disappears quicker. I could make reference to 'sweeping' here, but the rug has already been lifted.

 

I sincerely hope that the admins have read Bug&Snake's post carefully and give it the consideration that it deserves.

 

*****

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Jeremy wrote:

The moderators and cache approvers discussed this at length and decided not to create an off-topic area.

Seems like this is something that keeps coming up time and time again by many who would like such an area.

 

Perhaps there a possiblity that the approvers and moderators might be wrong?

 

*****

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Jeremy wrote:

The moderators and cache approvers discussed this at length and decided not to create an off-topic area.

Seems like this is something that keeps coming up time and time again by many who would like such an area.

 

Perhaps there a possiblity that the approvers and moderators might be wrong?

 

*****

BITE YOUR TONGUE!!!!!!!! They have spoken and they are the LAW!!!!!!!!!!!

 

errr, ummmmm........ ;) geoCaching ;)

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Jeremy wrote:

The moderators and cache approvers discussed this at length and decided not to create an off-topic area.

Seems like this is something that keeps coming up time and time again by many who would like such an area.

 

Perhaps there a possiblity that the approvers and moderators might be wrong?

 

*****

I don't think its a question of right or wrong. ;)

 

 

When a forum reaches a point of attracting a large number of contributors it naturally follows that a percentage of those contributors will be of a type who like to challenge 'authority' in one way or another - to go against the grain. These people tend to be the innovative thinkers - the ones who come up with the new and fresh approaches in what ever the subject of the forum may be.

 

By discouraging such people from contributing the forum subject becomes diluted by having the same subjects discussed again and again and again to the point of (yawn) nausia..... (picking on no one, I pick an example purely at random - 'Post a picture of your caching dog' - another, 'Best cache you ever found')

 

These 'authority challengers' are the people who will take this pastime to the next level, all be it that their 'way out' ideas need to be watered down some by the bulk of forum members. The seeds planted by those people are what is required if geocaching is to change. (grow - improve - evolve)

Such people as these are the pushers, the innovators, the fresh thinkers who will keep the concept growing.

 

So basically you are telling me that those who challenge authority are the reason things improve or go to the "next level"

 

My personal experience here is that those who challenge authority are doing so in a negative non-constructive way that benefits nobody.

 

I just can't draw the parallel between challenging authority and being positive.

 

Clue me in please.

 

And those are my personal opinions. ;)

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My personal experience here is that those who challenge authority are doing so in a negative non-constructive way that benefits nobody.

 

I just can't draw the parallel between challenging authority and being positive.

 

Clue me in please.

 

And those are my personal opinions. :)

I know what you're trying to say here, and I respect your opinions. My opinion is that even though some of us (yeah, I'm guilty of it too) have taken a rather sadistically angled approach, but that is sometimes necessary. If not totallly necessary, then it is at least a by-product of being stonewalled (I'll resist from making any carpet references).

 

err, ummmmm...... :P geoCaching :P

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umc wrote:

My personal experience here is that those who challenge authority are doing so in a negative non-constructive way that benefits nobody.

That's a rather erroneous statement.

 

I doubt that anyone here *wants* to be destructive towards this activity that we are all so passionately fond of. In fact, I would bet that the opposite is true. That's a pretty big difference from what you are saying.

 

There are however, plenty here who don't wish to be constrained in either the way they hide/find caches, or express their opinions (many of which are very, very good). Even worse is the amount of feedback that gets ignored or swept under the rug.

 

I also doubt that these same people really appreciate the condescending manner in which the admins of this site regularly reply to questions and concerns.

 

Regarding the first part of your post -- a wrong decision is just that -- wrong. What's even more wrong are those who fail to recognize that the best solution may have been overlooked.

 

*****

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I doubt that anyone here *wants* to be destructive towards this activity that we are all so passionately fond of. In fact, I would bet that the opposite is true. That's a pretty big difference from what you are saying.

 

If the opposite is true then it needs to be done it a positive way, bottom line.

 

 

Regarding the first part of your post -- a wrong decision is just that -- wrong. What's even more wrong are those who fail to recognize that the best solution may have been overlooked.

 

Please re-read what you just typed. A wrong decision is a matter of opinion, if you feel that not having a OT forum is wrong then thats your opinion.

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My personal experience here is that those who challenge authority are doing so in a negative non-constructive way that benefits nobody.

"Humanity has advanced, when it has advanced, not because it has been sober, responsible, and cautious, but because it has been passionate, rebellious, and immature." --Tom Robbins (a writer in Seattle)

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There is a thread and forum already that all the Mods know about where we can go for OT discussions. I don't know how to post a link, but it's calls Abject Silliness. Here's what Keystone Approver has to say on the subject:

 

This topic has a history. In August, when half the first page of the old General Forum was covered with off-topic thread subjects, Jeremy locked all the topics except this one, and encouraged everyone to post here. The Forum Guidelines were introduced a short time later.

 

The moderators have treated this thread as "grandfathered" since Jeremy specifically kept it open and encouraged people to post here if they wanted to post about things having nothing to do with geocaching. I'll continue that policy until I'm told by TPTB to do otherwise.

 

When moderating this thread I check only for compliance with the other Forum Guidelines.... not the Guideline about staying on topic. So far the postings have all been on topic.... abject silliness.

 

--------------------

Keystone Approver, Geocaching.com Volunteer Cache Reviewer and Forum Moderator

"Eschewing Entropy and Ensuring Enthalpy in the Groundspeak Forums"

 

errrrrrr, ummmmmmmmmmm........ :P geoCaching :P

3

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My quess is that the admins would rather have this topic in the lesser viewed Geocaching.com Web Site forum so that it disappears quicker. I could make reference to 'sweeping' here, but the rug has already been lifted.

I think you are partially wrong about this, J5. I think they would rather it not be posted at all. But if it has to be posted, they would probably prefer that it be posted here.

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umc wrote:

If the opposite is true then it needs to be done it a positive way, bottom line.

FINALLY!!! Someone gets it!

 

So let's get going on it then, shall we? Why don't the admins lead the way by stopping this restrictive silliness?

 

*****

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My personal experience here is that those who challenge authority are doing so in a negative non-constructive way that benefits nobody.

 

I just can't draw the parallel between challenging authority and being positive.

 

Clue me in please.

 

And those are my personal opinions. :P

When I made my post I deliberately used the expressions 'a forum' and 'These people tend to be the innovative thinkers'...

Why did I do this - because I did not want to start a discussion that would make it necessary to bring in specific personalities as subjects of argument. I am still reluctant to start a 'personality' discussion as that would be so far from the point of my post. I am also not very keen to start using similes and generalizations having seen how 'snow tires and minnow traps' can take the focus off the point that a poster has tried to make.

 

If you are not able to agree with the concept that I promulgate in my post above then that is perfectly fine. Because of my refusal to bring personalities into it, it is conceptual at best and is only an expression of how I conceive the trends that I have observed recently in the forums. It contained no criticism (real or implied) of any forum member or of TPTB.

 

Personally, I would have welcomed a non-geocaching area on here. Jeremy has posted above and made it clear that this is not up for discussion. For that reason I will probably spend less time on this forum than has been my way in recent months - simply because I like to discuss things other than geocaching - NOT as a protest. I will make use of other forums that I belong to - again, NOT as a protest against this one.

 

I can provide a simile if you wish it - a good one I think - that would illustrate the point that I tried to make in my post above but if the decision of TPTB is final and immutable, as it appears to be, then there is no point.

 

I used this forum to make my post, for my own peace of mind - I had something I wanted to get said. You choose to take a different stand. Both of these things are healthy and to be commended I think. I, and I assume you, are well able to take this and develop it into something that would be long, ugly and would attract all sorts of pointless comment. I think that I made a point that either causes agreement or not. I don't believe that you want to go the long, ugly route - I know I don't. With the decision having been made, 'no off topic area' it would be pointless and against the best interest of the forum in general.

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Sorry umc - I missed out on one of the points you asked me to answer.

"I just can't draw the parallel between challenging authority and being positive."

 

If you mean here, on this forum, then that is conceptual and I can't influence your mind on that but in general, if authority is NEVER challenged then society is in stasis and improvement/change will NEVER happen. Challenge is the life blood of authority - unless that authority is in the form of a dictatorship!

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I just can't draw the parallel between challenging authority and being positive.

 

Clue me in please.

From the Nostalgia Central Website:

 

In December 1955, in Montgomery, Alabama, a black woman named Rosa Parks insisted on sitting in the front of a bus. The segregation laws in America's deep south reserved the front section of public buses for whites (although most bus passengers in Montgomery were blacks and the front section was often almost empty).Rosa Parks was arrested and jailed, which led to mass protests and a boycott of the buses, led by local black minister Martin Luther King...

 

It goes into more detail, but you get the idea. I think there are probably thousands more examples that demonstrate how challenging authority can be positive. One of the more famous ones being The American Revolution.

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To quote one of my favorite movies (which apparently has been the reason for getting threads closed before), "What he have here is a failure to communicate". Jeremy knows of an existing forum specifically and intentionally left open by him from the previous forum pages of which the entire intent is off-topic discussions. I don't know how to post links, so someone help me out. It is called "Abject Silliness". Jeremy, why didn't you just tell the masses about this one and avoid all the hassle? I'm not attacking you, nor am I trying to argue with you, I just am curious. Perhaps you merely overlooked it in your haste to get the travelbug page running smoothly. At any rate, that's where we can go for off-topic discussions.

 

errrr, ummmmmmmm........ :P geoCaching :P

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Sorry umc - I missed out on one of the points you asked me to answer.

"I just can't draw the parallel between challenging authority and being positive."

 

If you mean here, on this forum, then that is conceptual and I can't influence your mind on that but in general, if authority is NEVER challenged then society is in stasis and improvement/change will NEVER happen. Challenge is the life blood of authority - unless that authority is in the form of a dictatorship!

First off, no I'm not up for the "ugly route" :P

 

Second, I guess my point on the above is that you can make improvements and change without challenging authority. I think doing this is viewed in a more positive light vs. the bucking the system approach. Maybe, its me but I know that whenever I've tried bucking the system in life/work outside of here I haven't had positive results and thats why I don't understand this whole "society is in a stasis" idea.

 

These people tend to be the innovative thinkers - the ones who come up with the new and fresh approaches in what ever the subject of the forum may be.

 

I guess this sentence was a sticky point with me too. I guess we can speak outside of the forums and such but to be specific to these forums and this sentence I don't see the authority challengers coming up with "the new and fresh approches..."

 

That probably just because I haven't read those threads. :P

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umc wrote:

That's probably just because I haven't read those threads.

That could very well be.

 

*****

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Sorry umc - I missed out on one of the points you asked me to answer.

"I just can't draw the parallel between challenging authority and being positive."

 

If you mean here, on this forum, then that is conceptual and I can't influence your mind on that but in general, if authority is NEVER challenged then society is in stasis and improvement/change will NEVER happen.  Challenge is the life blood of authority - unless that authority is in the form of a dictatorship!

 

Quote umc----- First off, no I'm not up for the "ugly route" :P -----end quote...

 

Good, I didn't want to go there either, particularly since I don't think that you and I are very far apart on this anyhow.

I don't mean the word 'challenge' to be taken as an 'in yer face' thing, more a stimulation to do better, to improve.....

 

Regardin the 'authority challengers' and a new and fresh approach, my thoughts were along the lines of 'instead of wasting time and effort asking for a place to plant the seeds that may well result in such new and fresh thinking, they would be off doing that thinking - if they had a place to do it!' Even if a worthy idea were to come up only occasionally, it's my own opinion that it would be time and effort well spent.

 

edited coz I made a total mess of the quote feature - hope it is still readable.

Edited by bug&snake

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Whether you agree or disagree, for a long time TPTB wanted discussions in the previously called “General” forum to be restricted to Geocaching. They also wanted discussions regarding the web site and its policies, restricted to the forum previously called “Geocaching.com”. Both of these issues resulted in considerable need for interference by the moderators. I’m surprised that it took them so long to simply change the titles of the forums to more accurately reflect the expected topics for discussion. Making things clear, and unambiguous is the key to communication, and reduces the need for interference by moderators.

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The moderators and cache approvers discussed this at length and decided not to create an off-topic area.

Great -- but it strikes me that you have a very simple way to resolve this issue once and for all -- and possibly end the ongoing discussion about the off topic section. Just start a simple poll of your customers, held at the top of the list for a few days.

 

Do you want the GC forums to have a section called "off topic" for discussion of items not directly related to geocaching, but constrained by the normal rules about not attacking other persons, not posting offensive material, etc...

 

(1) YES

(2) NO

 

++++++++++++++++++++++

 

I see no cons to this type of post, but considerable pros.

 

HM :P

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Give it up. TPTB have stated unequivicly that there will never be an off topic forum. All the complaining, suggestions or polls in the world are not going to change their mind on this issue. There's no way they're going to have a poll on the issue because, regardless of the results, they have no intention of acting on them. It's a waste of everyone's time.

 

Let's face it, Groundspeak is not customer focused - they believe they know better than their customers as to what is good for Groundspeak, geocaching and their customers and that is what they base their business model on. And their business model works because they have a virtual monopoly on geocache listings. They don't need to be customer focused to be successful.

 

Until there is viable competition for Geocaching.com they will continue to hold a virtual monopoly on geocache listings and we, the geocachers, will keep coming here for those listings, regardless of how we feel about Groundspeak. And they know it. You have to give Jeremy and company credit - they've created a great website that will act as the yardstick that all other listing sites will be measured against. It will be a tough, expensive uphill battle for any site who wants to truly compete with them.

 

In other words, they have us all by the short & curlies. So bend over, grab your ankles, and go caching.

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VERY well put, Gorak! I'm in favor of an off-topic area, as well as competitive sites to post caches on, but don't see either of them happening before I log my 100th cache, which, at the rate I'm going will be sometime around 2009.

 

errrrrrrrr, ummmmmmmmmm.................... :P geoCaching :P

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Let's face it, Groundspeak is not customer focused - they believe they know better than their customers as to what is good for Groundspeak, geocaching and their customers and that is what they base their business model on. And their business model works because they have a virtual monopoly on geocache listings. They don't need to be customer focused to be successful.

Absurd.

 

I've seen change after change after change on geocaching.com, in response to requests. I've also seen some requests that have not and will not be implimented. That's how it works. A half dozen people screaming loudly doesn't make an idea good.

 

An off-topic forum is unnecessary. There are ample places elsewhere where goecachers can gather and discuss whatever they wish.

 

An off-topic forum is undesireable. Given the behavior of a few trolls in forums where there are limits in place (I was on-line on Thanksgiving...), I can only imagine the cess pool an off-topic forum would be. Jeremy wishes this to be a site that can be open to families.

 

An off-topic forum is unwise. Either it is unmoderated, in which case it degenerates quickly into a pit where only a few hardcore flamers feel comfortable, or it is moderated, which will simply lead to more whining from the same small group that wish to trash whatever they can. There's no way to win.

 

There's no value that an off-topic forum can add, and plenty it can cost.

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I think you missed the point of my posting, Yumitori. I wasn't advocating the implementation of an off-topic forum. I was commenting on futileness (is that a word?) of continuing to ask for one. As for my opinions on their customer relations, I'll just agree to disagree with you and leave it at that. If you're happy with the status quo, good on you.

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I think you missed the point of my posting, Yumitori. I wasn't advocating the implementation of an off-topic forum. I was commenting on futileness (is that a word?) of continuing to ask for one. As for my opinions on their customer relations, I'll just agree to disagree with you and leave it at that. If you're happy with the status quo, good on you.

In that case, I'll still stand by my first paragraph. Not every idea is a good one, and so will not get implemented. But there's been ample suggestions that have been.

 

Jeremy listens. He just doesn't always agree.

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Speaking of bad ideas, try this one on for size. hehe

 

Have an OT forum be a premium member feature. Maybe even make it a "advanced" premium member feature where not only do you have to be a paying member but you have to pay more for the OT forum usage?

 

What do ya think? It was just a thought, and I was wondering, would it be worth it to those begging for it?

 

Granted its not going to happen but I was just curious since we talk about paying members and non paying members and all that if this would be something worth paying for.

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