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Reasons For Not Allowing Caches...


woodsters

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Of course the discussion has been that people don't want to or don't feel the need to ask permission to place a cache. Reason? The only reason i've seen so far is that they are afraid that a land manager will say no and that psosibly it may affect other cache already there.

 

What reasons have people gotten when land managers said "no"? What were the reasons they gave?

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When I asked to place a temporary cache (1 hour or so) so that I could introduce caching to a group of about 30 middle school kids I was told no because it was littering. I tried to explain that I would remove them in an hour or so and they said no because it was littering. I explained that it wasn't because i wasn't going to leave them and they said no because it was littering. I was going to say something else but the robot just kept saying no because it was littering.

 

These were going to be at the Hot Spring NP which for those that haven't been there is a non wooded, middle of the city park. I was placing magnetic key holders on some signs along the sidewalk and a micro or two under a park bench.

 

It was more of a showing the kids how to use a GPS and using GC to do it.

 

I ended up doing it anyway because well I am an American and we do that type of thing. The kids had a ball. The caches were removed, the park wasn't damaged, everything went well.

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I don't care if the thread goes off topic...that happens...that's for the moderators to decide and whether or not they want to moderate it...

 

Also I didn't imply you Criminal. Maybe I should have stated that some have said they have been told no and also stated that others have stated that they don't want to ask because they may be told no or may cause eviction of other caches already present. Then there is you, who states they just don't want to, because they feel it isn't necessary...

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I guess I'm gonna comment here since the starter doesn't mind an off-topic. i understand and mostly agree with almost all intelligent arguments regarding the whole permisso' thing. My final take is use your own judgement. Thus far my 3 meager cache placements have been done without special permission, and no problems have arisen.

 

However, I have 2 multi-caches I'm in the process of assembling, and these both involve permission.

 

Why the change? The previous 3 are in a public park, along a public trail on privately owned land open to the public, and in community owned property.

 

The stages of these multi's are on: public, private, commercial, city, and historical society lands. All the managers I have thus far contacted are very receptive and excited about the idea. With so many stages being in commonly used areas, and so much work going into the set-up anyway, I prefer to have permission to insure there is no hassle to fellow cachers. I don't feel that others should have to adhere to these steps as well, its My personal choice for handling it. Though for myself and various other cachers, a find requiring diversionary tactics and stealth is really cool, there are many who want to just find the cache. I want these caches to be informative, fun, and problem free for all who search them. Permission seems to me to be a good way of achieving that.

 

My 2 cents worth.

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I've asked 3 places...

 

1) City parks of Leominster- Emailed the director and got a response saying sure that they have heard of geocaching beofre. Said I could place in any city of Leominster park.

 

2) City parks of Fitchburg - Emailed the director and got a response back stating that I could come to a town meeting (month or so away from that time) and present it. Never did as I received permission from the other city. If later I would like to get permission there, then I will contact them again and go to a meeting to present.

 

3) An un-named conservation trust - Contacted via email from their website. Website promotes hiking and etc as well as the brochures at the parking area of the trust I found. There are several lands within the trust and I expressed that I would only place a cache in those that they ok'ed and etc. Received a reply back that they would discuss it at their next meeting. Meeting passed and I waited a couple weeks. Emailed the officer back that replied to me. Said they were thinking about it, but hte fact was that someone before had placed caches there and they considered it litter. That was months ago since my last contact. I take that as a no. Actually it is a no, until otherwise told yes. The problem I have with this one, is that the officer that contacted me promotes their business through this website. Sends a message to me of "we know what geocaching is and it makes us money, but we think that it is littering and won't allow it on lands we manage"...at least that's my first instinct of it....

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Ya know, in retrospect, I HAVE been told "no" before. It was in a park with a dam built by the army corps of Engineers. The park is huge, with a lake (of course) playgrounds, campground, hiking, hunting, fishing, rollerblading, etc.

 

I talked to the park manager, who said they were aware of caching, but at that time the general concensus on Army Corps of Engineers land was no caches. He said he would double check and get back to me. 2 years later. I didn't bother trying to follow up, I was busy placing and finding elsewhere. I just might check on the park again this spring, once my other caches are in place.

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I recently assisted in placing a cache in a State Park. Kentucky State Parks

require permission from the manager of that park. I expected to be shot down actually. The managers response was "It's a State Park and meant to be used, where do you want to put it?". WOW, what a breath of fresh air that was.

 

There is some common sense out there still. I am so glad I took the time to ask now.

Edited by Maxine&Me
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I own seven caches. Of those seven I only asked permission to place one. That one is inside a library.

 

The only other place I have asked permission was on the property of a 150 year old rural church. Permission was denied on the grounds that there has been a lot of vandalism at that particular church in recent years. Of course, I complied with the pastor's wishes.

 

Two months later the church was heavily damaged by arsonists. Three months after that, the church was again attacked by arsonists, and burned to the ground.

 

I'm definitely glad I asked permission for that one. And just as happy that it was denied.

 

Slightly off topic (but still about permission): I tour on my bicycle a lot and camp along the way. I'm what the Aussies call a long-grasser (a stealth camper who camps where he pleases without permission). I've always been very stealthy about this, since most of the time I'm tresspassing.

 

One time (the only time) I found a really cool place to camp but it was very near a house, I approached the land owner and asked permission to camp there. The family in the house was very excited about my colorful lifestyle and not only invited me to stay, but actually helped me set up camp and even invited me into their house for dinner.

 

But guess what? The resident of the house was not the land owner.

 

Just as I was ready to call it a night, a truck pulled up. The real land owner. Now he didn't have a problem with me camping there, but yet another resident (next door to where I was camping) did.

 

The lady in that house was paranoid about vagrants, called the real land owner to see if I had permission and then called the local sheriff. The land owner tipped me off about the law and suggested I start packing. A few minutes later, the sheriff showed up and monitered my activities until I pedaled off, down a lonely gravel road, at midnight.

 

Moral of this story: When obtaining permission to do anything, be sure you ask the right person.

 

2nd moral of this story: Don't ask permission and avoid paranoid people.

 

 

119047_13700.jpg:)

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Two months later the church was heavily damaged by arsonists. Three months after that, the church was again attacked by arsonists, and burned to the ground.

I wonder how much activity like this would be lessened with the presence of geocachers, picnickers, etc on a regular basis. I have used the same arguement about hunters in the backcountry - the more eyes and ears are out there, the less chance some moron has to cause trouble. It is really sad to hear of historical/significant sites being vandalized because TPTB don't have the resources to patrol, yet they won't allow joe citizen to have access to the area.

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Lol. I hear that septic. Wasn't while caching, we were chasing a hot air balloon. Was using the GPSr to plot roads for intercept course though. Finally crossed paths with the Chase crew, and followed them to the landing. Those thiings come down wherever, so they had to ask permission from a landowner. Guy standing in yard of nearest house says, "sure, drive up in that field" NOT the landowner. Real landowner shows up, spewing filth and foul.

 

Not sure of final outcome between balloon owner and landowner, but there were some harsh words !

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Like Criminal, I have never asked for permission, in that all of the caches I have hidden are on publicly accessible lands, where geoacaching is not prohibited and (in my opinion) permission is not required.

 

I do however think the only valid reason for a land manager to prohibit the placement of a typical cache, is that for some reason general public access to the land is restricted/prohibited. Any other reason, would, in my opinion, be petty and meanspirited.

 

I was recently searching for a cache in a bird sanctuary on a regional park. The sanctuary had strict rules posted about staying on the designated paths in order to protect wildlife habitat. (I presume that the rules were reasonably required). The cache was appropriately hidden at the edge of a path. If I was inclined to hide a cache off the path, I would certainly seek permission first, and fully expect that it would be denied, and I would not consider such denial unreasonable.

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Two months later the church was heavily damaged by arsonists.  Three months after that, the church was again attacked by arsonists, and burned to the ground...

I'm definitely glad I asked permission for that one.  And just as happy that it was denied.

 

The real irony of this story is that had the pastor given you permission to place the cache. It is possible because of the increased activity of future cachers, one of them may have caught the arsonist.

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Reasons I've heard.... some good, some bad... some from personal experience as a hider and some in my position as a cache reviewer. Quotes are paraphrased.

 

The bad:

 

1. "There is no excavation allowed on our property." Manager told that caches are not buried. "Your request is denied for the reasons stated previously."

 

2. "This park is close to a chemical factory. As the mayor of this town I would be crazy to allow a box to be placed that could be used in an act of terrorism."

 

3. "There are too many dangers with this activity and our solicitor says we would need to see evidence of liability insurance and a full indemnification agreement."

 

The good:

 

1. "This is a designated wildflower area. We would be happy to allow geocaches in other less sensitive areas of our park."

 

2. "The area you chose near the lake is where some rare and fragile plants are growing. If you move up the hillside 500 feet or so, that would be fine."

 

3. "In view of 9/11, the cache near the dam needs to be removed, but all the other caches in the park are fine."

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Who to ask?

 

This might be a subject to certain countries, but in a lot of countries in the world are there a lot of public areas and also private areas that are open for the public.

 

For example in Sweden, are it almost totally impossible to trespass! It is everybody right to be able to walk everywhere, even on private property!

Is there a fence around the area, and a gate is open - walk in!

 

You can even camp on private property without asking the landowner for permission!!

 

In a lot of the countries in Europe are it like this, and I haven't heard about any cache in Sweden where we have asked for permission to plant a cache.

In some caches can't we tell if it is the city that owns the land, the goverment, or perhaps any of the city's companys. It might be a private company or person, who knows?? ("And, who cares?" was I suppose to write also.)

 

Here in Sweden shouldn't the police react if someone found a box under a stone near an airport... But when you start hiding stuff indoor at a policestation, airport etc, they might be interested in why you hide it there...

 

So all these discussions about getting written permissions before a cache is approved, are strange topics to a lot of the cachers in the world. That is what I think.... Lets say you are in your car, driving at a not populated area. Suddenly you see a really good hidingplace for a cache. It might be in a desert, forest, mountain or something like that. You drop your cache off, check the coordinates, you return back home. You starts writing your cache page, and then geocaching.com requires you to have a written permission for placing a cache there. How shall you contact? Shall you start calling everybody that might own land in that area? "Hi, I'm wondering if you own three square feet of land where there is a big stone on the land, in the middle of a desert, at the coordinates xxx yyy?"

 

My opinion is that if we all place GOOD caches on GOOD places, and the cachers who goes after them are careful so they don't harm the environment and cachesite, there won't be any problems.. But if people starts placing stupid caches in stupid places, that will attract bad attention to the sport of geocaching, then we will have problem...

 

But mainly do I think this is a matter to perhaps certain areas/countries in the world, and don't punish everybody with requirements about permissions and things like don't - to get the cache approved.

 

It might sound crazy to some people that a person might have these kind opinions..

 

(I hope you understand my english, after all is not english my first language...)

 

By the way, this is a part of the "Right of Public Access" in Sweden. The part about "Private Roads and fenced areas"... Read it, it might shock the americans here at the forum:

Signs and fences

 

The right of public access grants everyone the right to be in the Swedish countryside. It is therefore not permitted to put up signs and fences for the purpose of excluding anyone from any area in which the right of public access applies.

 

Right of passage

It is permitted to pass through gates and over fences in order to reach areas to which the right of public access applies. But one must be careful not to damage fences, and to always close gates after passing through. To be on the safe side, close pasture gates even if they are open upon arrival.

 

Signs

Landowners may not put up signs like "Private", "No Camping", etc., near outdoor recreation areas where the right of public access applies. It is also forbidden to put up signs that prohibit walking or cycling on private roads.

 

Exceptions

Landowners are allowed to put up signs that prohibit entry into areas where the right of public access clearly does not apply, such as house grounds, plantations and farmland.

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The NPS Chief Ranger told me that the reason physical caches would not be practical would be because of the environmental regulations. He said he has no problem with allowing geocaches, but thanks to the backlash against man-made objects like the Alaskan oil pipeline the NPS has to do environmental impact studies before allowing any change to the environment.

 

If they want to install a park bench they have to do an environmental assessment study. Prior to permitting an ammobox placement an environmental assessment study would have to be done. They do not have the funds or manpower to conduct these studies.

 

I took it all with a bit of a grain of salt, but it does make sense in a bureaucratic sort of way.

 

~erik~

Edited by erik88l-r
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The only reason i've seen so far is that they are afraid that a land manager will say no and that psosibly it may affect other cache already there.

 

I won't ask unless obviously necessary due to liability. The care of duty is different for invitees to licensees to trespassers legally.

 

Permission moves geocachers from the licensee category to invitee. In CT that adds duty to inspect premises and repair or warn of defects, duty to maintain premise in reasonably safe conditions, duty to warn of defects or dangerous conditions.

 

Without permission liability is limited to that akin to postal carriers, fire fighters or police officers entering property. (May not injure, lay/set traps, no duty owed for obvious conditions, must warn of hidden hazards known).

 

I believe obtaining permission is doing a disservice to the landowners.

 

Enjoy,

 

Randy

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The NPS Chief Ranger told me that the reason physical caches would not be practical would be because of the environmental regulations. He said he has no problem with allowing geocaches, but thanks to the backlash against man-made objects like the Alaskan oil pipeline the NPS has to do environmental impact studies before allowing any change to the environment.

 

If they want to install a park bench they have to do an environmental assessment study. Prior to permitting an ammobox placement an environmental assessment study would have to be done. They do not have the funds or manpower to conduct these studies.

 

I took it all with a bit of a grain of salt, but it does make sense in a bureaucratic sort of way.

 

~erik~

Hmm, maybe offer to write it for them? It's just a bunch of words on paper right?

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NPS Regulations also state --

 

"( c ) Except in emergency situations, prior to implementing or terminating a restriction, condition, public use limit or closure, the superintendent shall prepare a written determination justifying the action. That determination shall set forth the reason(s) the restriction, condition, public use limit or closure authorized by paragraph (a) has been established, and an explanation of why less restrictive measures will not suffice, or in the case of a termination of a restriction, condition, public use limit or closure previously established under paragraph (a), a determination as to why the restriction is no longer necessary and a finding that the termination will not adversely impact park resources. This determination shall be available to the public upon request."

 

I wonder if that one got written?

Edited by geospotter
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What reasons have people gotten when land managers said "no"? What were the reasons they gave?

The only "no" Ive received was when the park managered kicked the request upstairs and their supervisor (one of six in the state's DNR system) turned it down. He had control concerns (ie what would be in the cache, who would find the cache, etc). He did decide I could do it, IF I stayed on site with the cache, and provided liablily insurance for this 'event'. ;)

Eventally, this require was dropped when the supervisor's boss (bureau chief) issued a statment that caching was ok.... :D

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Well I guess then I am persistant, I never got a no.

It took a while to get some yes's but there out there.

I gain permission only when I think that it "might" cause some type of "?'s".

Or there is already a rule that requires it.

I am with Criminal to the point that there are some places you just do not need to ask.I could add a long list of these but it is up to the Individual and what he or she feels to be the"right,or wrong" place to place a cache.

The others, well they speak for themselves.

 

Why I even got Permission from Monticello,Thomas Jeffersons Home,it is all presentation to the powers that be that this is a viable and productive sport.

And your willingness to prove it. :D

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