What Happened When You Asked Permission?

1.3k · November 29, 2003

I'm curious to know how many people have had the unpleasant experience of being penalized for "doing the right thing" and asking permission to place a cache in an area that already contained caches, and had no prior policy against geocaching.

I know there are many cases where this has led to cooperation and a beneficial arrangement with the land managers and cachers alike. No need to repeat those stories here. I'd like to hear examples of cachers asking permission to place caches on public land that already contains caches, and resulted in those caches being removed, and the activity being banned.

If you were the person responsible for (unintentionally) "blowing the whistle" on fellow cachers in your area, how would that make you feel? Good, for "doing the right thing"? Or would you feel guilty for having made caching that much more difficult for your local cachers?

November 29, 2003

...No need to repeat those stories here...

So, you're trying to make a point by ensuring that only one side of the story gets told?

Here's what happened when I asked permission. Not only did I receive permission, they asked when they could hold an Event cache.

1.3k · November 29, 2003

...No need to repeat those stories here...

So, you're trying to make a point by ensuring that only one side of the story gets told?

Here's what happened when I asked permission. Not only did I receive permission, they asked when they could hold an Event cache.

Are you trying to bait me? No, I am not trying to ensure that only one side of a story gets told. The stories of cooperation with land managers abound in these forums. I wanted to have a place where people could share stories about how they felt when after asking permission, it was denied and caches were removed. As this hasn't happened in your case, perhaps you ought to post to one of the threads about cooperative land managers. There are many. If the underlying motive is to derail this thread by posting off topic, because you disagree with my position that permission need not be asked in an area that doesn't require it, then that's just not cool.

2.7k · November 29, 2003

The point is not to have a biased discussion. The positive has been hashed out again and again. Hearing the negative will actually MAKE it a balanced discussion.

I too am curious if this scenario has ever actually happened or is this just a straw man used by those who, for whatever reason, don't get permission before hiding.

Great topic Bloen.

So? Does anyone have any personal knowledge of instances of this happening?

Edited November 29, 2003 by ChurchCampDave

2.1k · November 30, 2003

I asked permission in a place before and was denied. Due to the fact that caches had been placed there before and apparantly they didn't like it and/or considered it litter. So I didn't blow any whistles as there were none there. But a cache owner who previously placed a cache somewhere and didn't ask permission, can not get upset with another cacher if they do ask permission and the other cachers cache is exposed. Unless of course the wannabe cache placer pointed out that there were others there. Did that make since?

1.3k · November 30, 2003

Take, for instance, the ban on caching in NWR lands. How do we know the letter sent to Groundspeak wasn't provoked by a well meaning cacher trying to do what they believed was right? It isn't hard to imagine a scenario wherein they ask permission, the landmaneager denies it, (as someone mentioned it's easiest to deal with new activities that way) and discovers existing caches in the park. They freak out and ban the activity, citing regulations that were created before (and with no knowledge whatsoever of) geocaching.

I, for one, would hate to be the poor person who got caching banned in a park system in my area. I would feel guilty for having "sold out" my fellow cachers, and stupid for believing that in today's paranoid, litigious climate, anyone would take the time to learn about a new activity before taking the easy way out and banning it.

I know that many land manager are open to, and welcoming of, new ways to enjoy the lands under their care, but many others are eager to flex their authority at anything out of the ordinary.

1.3k · November 30, 2003

In response to Woodsters' post:

Yes, I see the logic, but the danger lies in alerting them to caching at all. Even if the person seeking permission doesn't mention the existing caches, the land manager might choose to search the website(s) for caches in their area, now that they know about caching.

2.7k · November 30, 2003

Good point, Woodsters, if you don't ask permission, you don't have much crying room if you are run off- regardless of how you were found out.

Was ban on NWR lands provoked by someone seeking permission?

Until that is definitively answered we still have a straw-man here.

1.3k · November 30, 2003

It isn't hard to imagine a scenario wherein they ask permission, the landmaneager denies it, and discovers existing caches in the park. They freak out and ban the activity, citing regulations that were created before geocaching.
I, for one, would hate to be the poor person who got caching banned in a park system in my area.

Sound to me like the guy who got things banned in your scenario was the guy who didn't ask permission, not the guy who did.

November 30, 2003

I've asked permission four times, but just about every case was in reaction to either a banning of geocaches or a threatened ban - so caches (mine included) had been initially placed w/o asking.

The first case was my state's State Parks. Asking initiated a dialog that resulted in a partial reversal of the ban - caches are allowed only if permitted by the local park manager, though they have to have a padlock on them.

The second case was an NPS adminstered National Recreation Area. "Asking" required submitting an application for a "Special Use Permit" with a $100 processing fee. The permit was approved, but sadly limited to virtual caches. Park management asked that no additional physical caches be placed, but has not demanded that the existing caches be removed. Some have been there for years, but are slowly being archived due to normal attrition.

The third case was a local nature preserve that had threatened to pull the seven caches. After asking nicely the seven were allowed to remain, the park invited our organization to hold GPS/geocaching classes for their middle school summer camp program. We've also used the park facilities for one of our monthly meetings.

In the three cases above "asking" involved making a fairly thorough presentation about the sport and its environmental impact in the specific park. This included a listing of all caches in the park, how long they'd been there, the average time between visits; as well as some CITO information.

The fourth case actually wasn't in response to a ban or threatened ban - I asked the curator of a local natural history museum if I could put a cache on the property. He said "sure". The same person administers the county's larger "regional parks" and he's given his ok to put caches in them, has made several presentations to our geocaching group, has hosted several meetings at his facility.

~erik~

6.5k · November 30, 2003

If you were the person responsible for (unintentionally) "blowing the whistle" on fellow cachers in your area, how would that make you feel? Good, for "doing the right thing"? Or would you feel guilty for having made caching that much more difficult for your local cachers?

Mixed I would guess, but are you interested in the 'how did it make you feel' aspect?? Or the actual happenings??

1.3k · November 30, 2003

Well, both, actually.

2.1k · November 30, 2003

In response to Woodsters' post:
Yes, I see the logic, but the danger lies in alerting them to caching at all. Even if the person seeking permission doesn't mention the existing caches, the land manager might choose to search the website(s) for caches in their area, now that they know about caching.

I didn't realize that Geocaching was secret... I'm sure sooner or later a land manager somewhere will hear about it somehow. I would much rather think that if it was presented to them first from a cacher first of all than that of a second, third, or fourth person wanting to place a cache when all the others before hand never did ask.

If I feel it's right to ask permission to place a cache, which I did, but there were no other caches there in the parks, then I should not be blamed if your cache gets yanked because they went out on their own and found out you hada cache there. Now I don't think it would be right to say well there are "X" amount of caches already there. That's pointing a finger. Just asking about it doesn't mean you are telling on the others. Have you ever introduced someone else to caching while on a trail? Someone see's you looking and poking around and they ask what are you doing, do you say "I can't tell ya"? No usually we, geocachers are friendly and enjoy inviting and involving others in this great sport.

November 30, 2003

I work with a few park systems across the state of Tennessee, as always first contact with them was when they started taking caches out that were placed without permissions. I have never found a park official I didn’t like and have always been able to work things out to where caches could be placed.

Remember you are going into their territory, its not a power trip with them as some may think, they are protecting the parks for my grandchildren and I like that and tell them so. With the success has brought programs where the park systems are placing there own caches , this did not happen overnight. Sometimes it take well over six months to get a program started. Then it will have a snowball effect.

Start off with one park, work with them to get a program set up, don’t walk in and expect them to say yes, you have to educate them on what this sport is all about.

This takes time, be patience , I have never been refused after talking and working with them. Find out about their park conventions and ask about doing a presentation for them.

I work 40 hours a week and cache hunt and talk to parks on weekends, I am not retired and a still had time to find 2000 caches, and yes I do have a life outside of geocaching.

You can do the same, stick with it and it will work………….JOE

1.3k · November 30, 2003

To answer your question, yes, I have answered several questions about caching while in the process of finding them. One instance resulted in me and my partner almost going to jail for searching for "contraband". The other instance, we had a cheerful half hour discussion with a park ranger, who while interested, did not seem interested enough to run out and buy a GPSr. He had no problem with our activities, just was curious about our strange searching behavior.

I would much rather think that if it was presented to them first from a cacher first of all than that of a second, third, or fourth person wanting to place a cache when all the others before hand never did ask.

Are you prepared to make an extensive presentation like the one described in Erik's post above? If asking permission is going to be setting a precedent, then it should only be done in a highly organized fashion. Average joes like you and I need the support of a large, organized group to properly present the sport. Do you feel like waiting months or years while the red tape unrolls, and an area that never required permission in the first place goes under the magnifier with an uncertain outcome?

1.4k · November 30, 2003

Bloencustoms wrote:
If asking permission is going to be setting a precedent, then it should only be done in a highly organized fashion. Average joes like you and I need the support of a large, organized group to properly present the sport.

Are you inferring that no one other than Groundspeak should be talking to land managers and related organizations?

*****

November 30, 2003

I was and still am an average Joe, but would like to think I care about this sport that is so enjoyable for me and others to try to work something out……………..JOE

only been doing it longer

Edited November 30, 2003 by JoGPS

4.8k · November 30, 2003

This has actually been a big concern of mine. I know that in Nebraska there are or have been caches in State Park areas where I would like to place a cache. Some of the local cachers have decided to seek permission in those areas. Well, do I place a cache in a State Park area that already has one without asking and assume it is OK, or do I ask, risking the possibility that they might say no, and hence jeopardize the existing caches? What if I ask in a State Park and they don't like it, which leads to a ban in all State Parks, even ones where we know the individual park manager not only supports caching but is a cacher him or herself (of course I hope he/she would actually help affect things in our favor)? It is a fine line. I know that here in Nebraska, we have gone the "individual park manager" route and have been successful. For example, where we asked, it has not only been allowed but welcomed. But still, we have not asked individually in all parks and not asked the park system as a whole. The scenario previously described worries me. What if we sought a state wide policy? What if it was negative? I suppose the answer is to address it professionally and hope for positive negotiations when/if it happens. For now, we know where individual park managers allow it and I guess we are risk where we don't know (we don't have any negatives yet) but have (at least among several Nebraskache members) been experimenting with asking for permission.

2.1k · November 30, 2003

Are you prepared to make an extensive presentation like the one described in Erik's post above? If asking permission is going to be setting a precedent, then it should only be done in a highly organized fashion. Average joes like you and I need the support of a large, organized group to properly present the sport. Do you feel like waiting months or years while the red tape unrolls, and an area that never required permission in the first place goes under the magnifier with an uncertain outcome?

If I feel strongly enough to place a cache somewhere that it may require me to do so, then I guess I would be prepared for that. Some places it may require that, other places it won't.

I contacted 2 cities here near me about placing caches in their parks. I emailed the Park directors of each city with a spill about geocaching, what it's about and some of the benefits. I gave them the geoacaching.com website address for further understanding of the sport. One city replied back that they would be interested in me presenting it at a meeting of theirs. The other replied back with a yes that it's ok. They so happened to have been hiking and they found one and their friend explained what it was. They were very openminded about it and said it sounded like fun. They (She) told me I was welcome to place caches in the parks and even suggested a particular park. The other place said I could come to the meeting which was like a month away. I never did contact them back to go and do it as it was not worth it to me. I had already received pernission from one city and once I place caches everywhere I want to there and if I feel the need, then I may go back to the other city.

But if someone feels the need to place a cache in a certain place and it means that much to them, then they may wish to go through an "extensive" presentation.

4.5k · November 30, 2003

I once placed a cache in a NRA in Brooklyn not realizing the national regulation against caching. Two months later after I learned about the rule, I contacted the manager who eventualy got back to me. After a short conversation on the phone where I apologized for not realizing the rule at the time, he asked me to remove it. There was some hostility in his voice. When I asked another cacher to remove it for me (so he could log a find), it was gone by the time he got there. That might not have been deliberate - it could have just be plundered as it was in a vulnerable spot.

In another case, at a NY City park, the manager found my cache by accident, posted a log,vcinserted a couple of trail maps in the container and rehid it. Nice guy.

Alan

2.1k · November 30, 2003

Carleen, one approach may be to ask the managers you are already working with and see what they think about hte other parks and the other managers. They may give a heads up and tell you not to even bother. Then again, they may be good friends and they canget the ok for you...

November 30, 2003

...Are you prepared to make an extensive presentation like the one described in Erik's post above?...

Here's how I got around having to make a presentation.

I made a auto-running CD that describes family geocaching, CITO, etc. Before asking permission I drop the CD off at the park and ask that it be forwarded to the manager. A few days later I call to see if they got it (and what they thought).

This accomplishes several things. It allows me to present geocaching in exactly the way I want, and also in a professional manner. When they go to their managers they already have answers (they just give them the CD).

It's a nice little presentation (it even includes cover art for the jewel case). I also added a few pages at TPTB's request. I've used it 4 times and was granted permission every time!

I'd be happy to forward it to you by email if you like.

As for 'was I baiting you?' Nope. I just dislike skewed questions.

2.3k · November 30, 2003

originally posted in On Permission And Pantywastes,

Posted by Jeremy: Nov 28 2003, 09:12 PM

From one of the guys that receives the angry phone calls from land managers who accuse us of placing a container on those lands, please help us out and ask permission.

I hear you, but please try to work with these guys. Hydee and the approvers have all done wonders turning around angry land managers and owners, and so have the regional folks who have worked with their local land agencies. These agencies appreciate the help we give when a troublesome cache ends up on their lands, and it has ultimately contributed to open lands for geocaching (and easy permits).

Personally I've seen that over the past 3 years, what participants have given back to these lands far outweigh the footprint of the individual caches out there. Those less inclined to go outdoors have rediscovered a new way to exercise and awareness of their locale. Their area has benefited from it. I hope this continues.

Edited November 30, 2003 by CO Admin

November 30, 2003

Geospotter,

could you email your presentation to me...I am contemplating a presentation at school and at a local agency! Brand new State Park facility being built 8 miles from my house! Thanks!!

November 30, 2003

Before I get any more requests for the presentation. Woodsters has kindly offered to allow you to download it from his site. Give us a little time to get it transferred and then check for it there. Thanks Woodsters!

2.1k · November 30, 2003

No problemo...I will get it posted on the message board in the Geocaching area, maybe under the downloads section as well...

1.3k · November 30, 2003

Thanks geospotter and woodsters, for your generosity. This might be just the thing "average joes" need to help present the sport in a positive way.

4.5k · November 30, 2003

I'd love to download it too but I'm running 53K modem. How big is the file?

Tks Alan

2.1k · November 30, 2003

it appears to be a large file...i'm on dialup and am still receiving it in my email...

4.8k · November 30, 2003

Carleen, one approach may be to ask the managers you are already working with and see what they think about hte other parks and the other managers. They may give a heads up and tell you not to even bother. Then again, they may be good friends and they canget the ok for you...

Yeah, we have had some of this and are working on where we don't.

It's a nice little presentation (it even includes cover art for the jewel case). I also added a few pages at TPTB's request. I've used it 4 times and was granted permission every time!
I'd be happy to forward it to you by email if you like.

Yeah, could you send that to me? I have a letter that I use and have been working on a CD presentation myself, but I would love to see what others are doing and use it if it will save time.

I also see that Woodsters is making it available for upload and I guess I could always wait for that. Thanks Woodsters!

2.1k · November 30, 2003

Ok...finally got the file downloaded and am now uploading to the server...will probably be at least another 20-30 minutes on it as it's 4.90 MB and that's it zipped....

Thanks for your patience...

November 30, 2003

Let me be the first to say that I am no Spielberg. I'm not a graphic artist and I had not used this particular software before (Macromedia Authorware). So, it's pretty basic. I hope it is as successful for everyone as it has been for me.

Can we now get back to Bloencustom's original topic?

2.1k · November 30, 2003

Ok the file is available ...You can find it at the Geocaching General discussion forum of my message board.

1.2k · November 30, 2003

Are you prepared to make an extensive presentation like the one described in Erik's post above? If asking permission is going to be setting a precedent, then it should only be done in a highly organized fashion. Average joes like you and I need the support of a large, organized group to properly present the sport. Do you feel like waiting months or years while the red tape unrolls, and an area that never required permission in the first place goes under the magnifier with an uncertain outcome?

If I feel strongly enough to place a cache somewhere that it may require me to do so, then I guess I would be prepared for that. Some places it may require that, other places it won't.

Is there any material available from Groundspeak for such a presentation? Perhaps there could be an official presentation, a PPS slide show downloadable for all of us from the Groundspeak site, which each of us could download when talking to authorities and land managers, which we could then individually enhance with personal data about the region or the park inquestion, etc.? And are there statistics available about the size of our community, with some Geographic breakdown?

Edited and added: Oops, I just read that a private presentation was made available. Thank you!

My question about official Groundspeaks material and statistics remains, however!

Edited November 30, 2003 by Shunra

November 30, 2003

This has actually been a big concern of mine. I know that in Nebraska there are or have been caches in State Park areas where I would like to place a cache. Some of the local cachers have decided to seek permission in those areas. Well, do I place a cache in a State Park area that already has one without asking and assume it is OK, or do I ask, risking the possibility that they might say no, and hence jeopardize the existing caches? What if I ask in a State Park and they don't like it, which leads to a ban in all State Parks, even ones where we know the individual park manager not only supports caching but is a cacher him or herself (of course I hope he/she would actually help affect things in our favor)? It is a fine line. I know that here in Nebraska, we have gone the "individual park manager" route and have been successful. For example, where we asked, it has not only been allowed but welcomed. But still, we have not asked individually in all parks and not asked the park system as a whole. The scenario previously described worries me. What if we sought a state wide policy? What if it was negative? I suppose the answer is to address it professionally and hope for positive negotiations when/if it happens. For now, we know where individual park managers allow it and I guess we are risk where we don't know (we don't have any negatives yet) but have (at least among several Nebraskache members) been experimenting with asking for permission.

Being from Nebraka, I've always found the state and county people there to be very reasonable to deal with. By far it is the least power-tripping state I've ever lived in.

If anyone gives you any trouble, just say you have something to do with Nebraska football, and you're golden.

George

6.5k · November 30, 2003

Well, both, actually.

Well, Ill tell you want happened, but not the other part.

Lets see...

There was private owned open to the public nature center and trail, that had removed one cache in the past. So I went to them about getting permmison, the steward was very nice, but wanted to ok the ok. (it turns out the other cache was too close to gully that was having erosion problems). So after playing after playing phone tag, and having to wait a few months finally got final ok and placed it. The same day I submitted my cache, someone else gets another cache listed. After finding the cache to be sure of its location I emailed the placer explaining the history of the area, and how to get permission. They didn't seem interested, but enforcing the rules is not up to me, is it? So I let it go. 3 weeks later the lady from the NC contacts me asking about why there are two caches in there, did I place two? or whats going on? I explained it wasn't mine. Then she asked what should be done (why im supposed to know I still don't understand ). I told I thought she should go find the cache and either remove it and contact them, or if its in an ok place contact them and get the cache oked (they want contact info for cache placers). Im not sure if thats how she went about it or not, but I know the cache stayed in the area, but had to be move to different location.

This other time I went about getting permission for a State Rec Area (managed by the parks). The park manager thought it was alright, but wasn't sure how to 'approve' it. So I have to fill out some paperwork, show her the cache, figure out the locations I would use. Somewhere in there someone placed a cache in the area. I contact them and explain Im working on getting permission to place in the park, and the manager doesn't seem to want any cachs in the park till she gets it all worked out. They respond they didn't know the area needed permission.

Eventally (about 6 months pass from intial contact) the managers boss, a district supervisor, kills the whole thing by requiring any 'even' must have liablity insurance, and that the container can not be upattended at any time (extended weekender at the park???). This pisses me off that the area allowing fishing, hunting, bicycles, hiking, birdwatching, swiming, camping, even horseback riding, but you *cannot* geocache! So I give up the area and go caching elsewhere. Another couple months later, the park manager calls me up, Guess what, she found the other people's cache. After explaining its not mine, and how she could use gc.com to email them, she explains the cache is ok (now), but she needs contact info to ok the cache. Come to find out that the supervisor's boss, the state bureau chief found out about caching, and issuing as statement allowing it, and outlining some guidelines till a permanent policy can be set. So almost a Year later, I finally get to place some caches in the Park.

Btw- those other people declined to fill out the stupid form and go put the cache back

Let me point however, that most of the time getting *permission* has been much much similar and quicker. FYI- My personal take on the getting permission is that I'm not looking so much for a yes/no , but a 'is this spot ok'? If Im told it there should be a pretty good reason, like 'this area is closed to everyone but a couple state biogist", or "the knoll you picked is really an Indian burial mound but we don't tell people this so pot hunters won't come and mess it up..."

One state park, I emailed the manager my request, and he called me like 30minutes later asked a couple questions and said it would be fine as long as I stopped at the office and showed the guy what the container was. (yes, this shocked the S^&* out of me too)

Other times I've mailed or emailed my requests (or after the fact, I've placed here), and gotten replies back oking it. In one case I even got an email from a park ranger saying thanks for letting them know, and requesting I let them know when/if the cache is removed. The odd part, to me anyways, is that I sent that request to a county board not that guy.

Several other times, I have received no reply at all. I don't stay up at night worrying about it, I just wait a couple weeks and went and placed. My letter told them who I was, how to contact me, where the cache was, and of course what caching is. If they aren't concerned about it to say no, Im not going to bug them for a expressed yes or offical reply. They doubtless have more important things to do.

4.8k · November 30, 2003

If anyone gives you any trouble, just say you have something to do with Nebraska football, and you're golden.

With the news I just heard, I suppose I have to approach the right booster. Pro-change and I'm golden. Pro-Solich and I'm out!

21.9k · November 30, 2003

Is there any material available from Groundspeak for such a presentation? Perhaps there could be an official presentation, a PPS slide show downloadable for all of us from the Groundspeak site, which each of us could download when talking to authorities and land managers, which we could then individually enhance with personal data about the region or the park inquestion, etc.? And are there statistics available about the size of our community, with some Geographic breakdown?

To my knowledge, there is no "official" Groundspeak presentation about geocaching. And, this is just my personal opinion, but I think that is a good thing. Groundspeak is in a good position to list geocaches, etc., but not in a good position to be offering materials to the county park system in your area. This work is done best on the state and regional level. Many of the geocaching associations formed out of necessity when confronted with the need to work with the State Parks on a geocaching policy, or to reverse a geocaching ban. In other places, just a few concerned geocachers can get together and work with land managers on a policy to apply in the city parks, county parks or state parks.

There might be a role for Geocaching.com to host more basic information about geocaching, in addition to the FAQ's, listing requirements and other info. already available, and maybe some presentation materials to be used as a starting point. But the materials will work much better if given the personal touch and presented by someone who lives right in the area. Different areas will have different concerns. Here in Pennsylvania we did not address coastal/tidal areas in our geocaching policy but in Florida that would presumably be near the top of the list.

1.3k · November 30, 2003

Thanks Welch, for your enlightening post. It's good to hear the experiences other cachers have had gaining permission for the activity.

2.1k · November 30, 2003

I haven't looked at presentation yet that geospotter sent me to post, but this does remind me of something else. A few years ago a guy that worked at the same place i did, sold Amway products. Of course he tried to get me involved. He gave me this little tiny cd that wabout the size of a credit card and told me to take a look at it. It was really neat. It was an awesome presentation on the company and etc. I think some guru here design such a thing on geocaching in general and sell them.

Once again that presentation that geospotter sent me is on my message board under the General geocaching area...

November 30, 2003

I had to remove two caches after asking permission. I later got permission when the land manager created a geocaching policy.

24.7k · December 1, 2003

Nightstalker took the time to work with the NPS on a virtual and got permission. He also got their input on what should go into the cache. Someone else listed a cache first got it approved in the same area. Nightstalkers cache got listed after he got permission and it also was approved. The other cache owner got peeved and hit the "Archive this cache" button on Nightstalkers cache. And that was that. It got archived.

If Nightstalker didn't bother with permission his would of been listed first and there would of been no issue. NPS politics make virtual cache permission important as a means to open the door to physical caches.

1.3k · December 1, 2003

The only time I actually considered placing a cache in a national park, I made some calls and had a positive discussion with someone involved with the care of the particular park I wished to place it in. He was very helpful, had never heard of caching, and also referred me up the chain of command to his boss, who was on vacation. He was all for the idea of a virtual (Which I don't feel the need to ask permission for) but was not in a position to give me the go-ahead. I might contact him again, and try geospotter's presentation on them. The ultimate goal is to get them to let me place a physical logbook somewhere in the visitor's center. I really don't want to risk going through all the red tape only to place a virtual I didn't need to ask permission for in the first place.

24.7k · December 1, 2003

...I really don't want to risk going through all the red tape only to place a virtual I didn't need to ask permission for in the first place.

That was the main argument against the cache that did get permission.

A VC on public land will be scrutinized for those indian burial mounds, and biologically sensative spots, just as hard as a physical cache would be.

The point to my post was that permission takes time. When push came to shove speed and the argument that "getting permission for a VC is stupid" won out. Enough so that an approved cache with logs was archived by TPTB.

1.3k · December 1, 2003

I'd hate to be the person to make the decision in that case. On the one hand, the well meaning efforts of the person who asked permission are commendable, but OTOH the guy who placed it first didn't really need to ask. It gets harder to decide who is right the longer you examine it.

December 1, 2003

I didn't realize that Geocaching was secret... I'm sure sooner or later a land manager somewhere will hear about it somehow. I would much rather think that if it was presented to them first from a cacher first of all than that of a second, third, or fourth person wanting to place a cache when all the others before hand never did ask.

Or, they could see that they already have x number of caches on their site for y number of years and everything has been fine all along.

Public (collectively owned) land invariably leeds to conflict about who gets to do what with it. Privately owned land does not have this inherent flaw.

1.3k · December 2, 2003

Alright. I have joined up with some other local cachers in an attempt to gain blanket permission to conduct geocaching activities in a local park. Today, one of our members made some phone calls, and spoke with 8 different people as she worked her way up the chain of command. We are expecting a call from them to further discuss geocaching tomorrow. We are attempting to get permission first, to hold a CITO event at the park. We thought this would be the way to hit them with the most beneficial aspect of the sport right away. After speaking to several different people, none of them knew what caching was. Our repeated attempts to explain it only further confused them. At first, they thought we wanted to sign up as volunteer park employees. (Because we mentioned we wanted to pick up trash.) Next, we were referred to the treasurer (or something similar) because of the phonetic similarity between cache, and cash. Finally, they promised to take a look at the website and contact us tomorrow to discuss it further. We intend to invite them to go on a cache hunt at their convenience, to better illustrate what the sport is all about.

Now, if despite our best efforts they decide to ban geocaching from the park, I and several other local cachers will have to remove and archive several caches from the park (we didn't mention any were already there) including one of the oldest ones in the state. You can bet we're going to feel like bad guys for doing so.

If indeed they do see reason and decide to allow caching in the park, I will "eat my words" and do my best to educate land managers in charge of places I wish to hide caches.

December 2, 2003

Good luck, Bloencustoms. (Don't forget to mention 'family activity'.)

1.3k · December 2, 2003

We will. With any luck, we'll be posting a CITO event for mid January.

2.1k · December 2, 2003

Yes, good luck.... along with the family activity and the CITO you already mentioned, it may result to meeting htem in person, take a cache and the gps with you. On your way to the office, drop the cache off on the premises and mark it with your gps. Then show them what it's all about. I wouldn't put any knives or anything in it tohugh...lol

What Happened When You Asked Permission?

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