Jump to content

On Permission And Pantywastes


Criminal
Followers 3

Recommended Posts

Permission has reared its ugly head again and another new cacher has decided he/she has a better way of playing the game. I’ve started a new thread because I will cover this so thoroughly that it will appear, at times, to be off topic.

 

This is what I learned in the Air Force: There are two types of people in the AF (and the world in general). The first believes they can do nothing without explicit permission. They will not act unless they know factually that the act is an approved act. If they have the slightest doubt, they will find someone to ask for permission. The second type of person believes they can do anything unless they are aware of a prohibition specifically against the act. They see the lack of prohibition as implicit permission.

 

The difference between the two is all about freedom. Before I discuss freedom, let me first explain the severe danger of asking permission. People, in general terms, like to avoid conflict, they like their jobs and their lives to be as simple and trouble free as possible. They want routine. They don’t want some anal retentive worry wart to come along and start making demands for permission or authorization to do something they never heard of. So there you go, feeling warm and smug, asking Joe Flunky park employee if you can hide a geocache in a park over which he has some degree of authority. He’s never heard of it, can’t understand even the most eloquent explanation you offer, and will become annoyed. Why? Because you’ve just destroyed his whole sense of routine. Now he has to go find information about an activity he doesn’t comprehend. He knows that if he asks his boss, he’ll sound like a stuttering idiot trying to explain it. What will he do? He will deny your request, because that’s the easiest way to get back to his routine while exposing him to no risk. Before you asked, you had implicit permission at least, and deniability nonetheless. Now you have been specifically prohibited and have effectively given away some of your freedom. Unfortunately, there are any number of whiners and pantywastes who find it impossible to enjoy such a “rouge” game and try to change the game to suite them, instead of changing their own philosophy to agree with the game.

 

And that’s what it’s all about, freedom. I gave 20 years for it, some gave nothing, and others gave everything they could. You didn’t get your freedom from the constitution; rather, that document merely affirms your freedom. If you can’t understand the difference, I’m sorry, I don’t have the time or space here to educate you. Why do you obey laws? Really, ask yourself why you obey the laws? If your answer is, “to avoid punishment” you are not free. You are a slave to the law and slaves are not free. Ask me why I obey laws and I’ll tell you it’s because I believe in the limits imposed to ensure a civilized society. Now here’s the catch, I reserve the right to disobey any law at my whim. Don’t be shocked, because therein lies my freedom; I could break the law, but I have made the free will decision not to. I know how to pick locks, I am comfortable moving about in the dark without external lighting and can do so almost without making a sound, I have knowledge of how certain equipment works and how to circumvent its intent. I choose not to.

 

Sadly, freedom is an addictive drug. I will, without fail, fight tooth and nail against anyone who tries to take even the most miniscule portion of my freedom from me. It’s a very insidious disease. It never strike catastrophically, rather, it sneaks in a little at a time. I don’t and won’t ask permission unless I am aware of a prohibition. I refuse to surrender any of my freedom. Guess what? This philosophy is in full compliance with the guidelines of this site! You are fully expected to obtain permission wherever permission is required. So to the person (now and later) who thinks geocaching.com should require a lengthy procedure to ensure permission is granted before approving a cache, F you. Shut up and enjoy the game. If you cannot enjoy the game, play something else.

 

EDIT: Typo

Edited by Criminal
Link to comment

That was very well expresed. And, therein lies the core of some of the problems we have seen come to the surface in recent times. Some, not all.....

If caching is to remain the fast moving pastime that it was and is then it will be seen by some as being a little 'outlaw' in its implementation. I mean that if we do it the way that Criminal has outlined then this will happen. (understand this, I like Criminals analysis) Now, the problem is this, with the involvement of a commercial organization in the game, things must be seen to be clean and legal. Things that we do as individuals, and get away with, are not so easy to carry off as a commercially identifiable entity. And, this defines the difference in attitude that exists in some fields betwen the cachers and 'The Company'. 'The Company' is not an elected entity that stands in place of the 'body of cachers' and (if required) gets in the face of authority... 'The Company' is a commercial entity, and, as such has the right to set and maintain any and all rules and regulations that it decides are appropriate for this site. If that decision includes the right to post to the forums only through the moderators then so be it. Like it or not, they do have that right. We, the forum members, can ask that this change. They, the site owners, can say 'no'... We, the members, have no rights in this - except for the right to, figuratively, withdraw our labour.....

What then becomes of things of we choose to do this? What changes? Not a lot!

The site will continue with little or no impact felt. The forums will continue with litle or no impact felt. (well, OK, a little - most will think that is to the good)

Bottom line, to make changes to the pass time of geocaching it will require that there be an alternative (a REAL alternative) to this site. In the main, this site serves the community well in almost all ways. If you, as an individual, or as a group coming together, can provide a good and viable alternative then please, please do so. It would be to the good of all, this site included.

 

Excellent post Criminal, good stuff!

Link to comment

Sept1c Tank's post reminded me that I had not yet had an opportunity to test the font size and color features of the new forums. Let me quote a portion of Criminal's post:

 

"This philosophy is in full compliance with the guidelines of this site! You are fully expected to obtain permission wherever permission is required."

 

Yes, these features worked for me.

 

While I am here, I will note that H-E-double hockey sticks in the subtitle of this thread, and the boldfaced capital F towards the end of Criminal's post, are off-color. I have now discharged my moderator duties in regard to that post.

Link to comment

While I agree with much of your post, Criminal, you've left out a huge portion of the definition of freedom (as practiced here in the USA). That is "tolerance", and an important factor of tolerance is "respect".

 

I respect that the land on which I wish to place a cache may be controlled by someone else. I respect that person's authority to govern that land as they see fit. I do not ask for permission as a form of submission, I ask as a form of respect.

 

You are right in that we have the freedom to choose which laws to obey and which to ignore, but we all know that in the choosing there are consequences. Not just personal consequences, but consequences for our society as a whole. I may chose to pick the lock on your home (yes, I, too, have that ability), but my choosing affects you. Your choosing to ignore the laws that you wish, affects me, and everyone else in our society.

 

Some of us are taught respect, some of us learn it on our own, and some of us never seem to grasp the concept.

Link to comment
While I am here, I will note that H-E-double hockey sticks in the subtitle of this thread, and the boldfaced capital F towards the end of Criminal's post, are off-color. I have now discharged my moderator duties in regard to that post.

Well done Keystone Approver - that is moderating! As opposed to censoring I mean.....

Link to comment
While I agree with much of your post, Criminal, you've left out a huge portion of the definition of freedom (as practiced here in the USA). That is "tolerance", and an important factor of tolerance is "respect".

 

I respect that the land on which I wish to place a cache may be controlled by someone else. I respect that person's authority to govern that land as they see fit. I do not ask for permission as a form of submission, I ask as a form of respect.

 

You are right in that we have the freedom to choose which laws to obey and which to ignore, but we all know that in the choosing there are consequences. Not just personal consequences, but consequences for our society as a whole. I may chose to pick the lock on your home (yes, I, too, have that ability), but my choosing affects you. Your choosing to ignore the laws that you wish, affects me, and everyone else in our society.

 

Some of us are taught respect, some of us learn it on our own, and some of us never seem to grasp the concept.

Good points there but I don't see that you are disagreeing with Criminal in ANY way really - just choosing to ignore different laws!

You are both choosing a path and accepting the consequence of that choice.

More power to you!

Link to comment

Anyone else find it interesting that so many people know how to pick locks?

 

I've got some old bike locks in the garage that I can't open for the life of me. ;)

 

On a serious note - I agree with you Criminal. Many times, when you ask permission - the answer's "No"...and the only reason is "Because you asked".

 

A wise person once remarked, it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission.

Edited by HartClimbs
Link to comment

Yes, I KNOW it is off topic a little but CO Admin, as an obvious expert can you please help?

I am writing a business letter to this Ancient Aramaic guy right now and need to say to him "You are a pudding faced, half baked IDIOT!"

I tried Google with no luck. Please translate for me so that I can get this letter on the last camel train out of here before the week end.

Link to comment

Excellent post Criminal! When I was a kid I always walked off the trails in parks simply because it is more interesting than the trail. I never questioned if it was legal or not, I would look for snakes, lizards or wild berries in the summer. It has been a long time since I have done that. Geocaching has brought back those feelings of adventure and to me this is priceless. Unless there is somebody physically present to stop me from this activity I will go where I want, when I want unless it is posted private property . My taxes pay for these public lands and I shouldn't have to ask permission to use them.

Thanks for the chance to rant ;)

J.D.

Link to comment

I thought I'd just post here since it is pretty obvious Criminal is refering to me and this thread:

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=59377

 

I don't care a bit that I've been called a pantywaste. In fact I am a strong beleiver in more freedom on this forum. I do find it amusing that the rules are applied selectively however since the thread has been up for quite a while and at least two of the admin people have even chosen to post on it. I think that that was the point of yesterday's fiasco though - the uneven application of the rules.

 

In any case, I think I understand. It is the official policy of GC.com that all geocaches are to be placed with the land manager's permission. Don't you dare do otherwise. Nudge Nudge Wink Wink.

 

Why not just be honest about it?

 

Les.

Edited by lessenergy
Link to comment
Excellent post Criminal! When I was a kid I always walked off the trails in parks simply because it is more interesting than the trail. I never questioned if it was legal or not, I would look for snakes, lizards or wild berries in the summer. It has been a long time since I have done that. Geocaching has brought back those feelings of adventure and to me this is priceless. Unless there is somebody physically present to stop me from this activity I will go where I want, when I want unless it is posted private property . My taxes pay for these public lands and I shouldn't have to ask permission to use them.

Thanks for the chance to rant ;)

J.D.

Well, if you’re going to bring up the topic about going “off trail” then here’s what I think of that. F the trail! If it’s OK for Bartholomew Bear and Ernie Elk to wander to and fro, eating the plants and wiping their rectums with bunnies, it’s more so for me. I’m just not finding the plants to be of my liking and not having an easy time of catching a bunny

Link to comment
I thought I'd just post here since it is pretty obvious Criminal is refering to me and this thread:

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=59377

 

I don't care a bit that I've been called a pantywaste. In fact I am a strong beleiver in more freedom on this forum. I do find it amusing that the rules are applied selectively however since the thread has been up for quite a while and at least two of the admin people have even chosen to post on it. I think that that was the point of yesterday's fiasco though - the uneven application of the rules.

 

In any case, I think I understand. It is the official policy of GC.com that all geocaches are to be placed with the land manager's permission. Don't you dare do otherwise. Nudge Nudge Wink Wink.

 

Why not just be honest about it?

 

Les.

No, I'm not referring to you directly. You are just the latest in a long line of new players with a better idea. I have no malice towards you as we've never met, and the communication system we use (forum posts) are easily misunderstood.

 

EDIT spelling

Edited by Criminal
Link to comment
In any case, I think I understand. It is the official policy of GC.com that all geocaches are to be placed with the land manager's permission. Don't you dare do otherwise. Nudge Nudge Wink Wink.

 

Why not just be honest about it?

 

The guidelines for placing a cache state:

By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location.

 

Adequate permission does not meant that you MUST obtain permission for each cache you place. It does however, mean that if permission is required you get it. There are many places in the country that do not require permission to place a cache so no permission is need. That is adequate permission for that cache.

 

"Nudge Nudge Wink Wink" all you want, but get the facts straight too

Edited by CO Admin
Link to comment

Lessenergy, your buttery approach to stir up the pot again just keeps leaving a bad taste in my mouth. You stated in another thread that you felt geocaching didn’t have any negative impact to an area, yet your very first post on these forums was about how you didn’t like the idea of caches at all because they were just “out there”. Not a very consistent thread of thoughts. Now you are back trying to dictate policy about permission. Maybe you should look THE BLM MEMO HERE, or AT THIS CACHE, or maybe at some of the many local cache organization websites and read about how cachers everyday are working with local land management agencies, city parks, county parks, and state parks to set policy about cache placement rules and permission. If you really are interested in cache placement policy or this game at all you would actually go find a few caches and contact some local cachers near you about what you can do in your area to promote the sport and to increase the database of areas where caching is allowed with a permit or where we don’t have to ask for permission at all. Join this community, ask what you can do to help, or shut up. But don’t keep coming here saying what’s wrong with us or the game without actually getting involved. Show us you are real and that you are interested in joining our game.

Edited by Navdog
Link to comment
Like it or not, they do have that right. We, the forum members, can ask that this change. They, the site owners, can say 'no'... We, the members, have no rights in this - except for the right to, figuratively, withdraw our labour.....

What then becomes of things of we choose to do this? What changes? Not a lot!

You forgot to mention the withholding of monies spent for premium member fees, and boycotting of sponsors... Nudge, nudge, wink wink...

 

I must concur that there has been a recent tightening of the strictures involved in placing a cache. Even though the Powers That Be (PTB's) in my area have known about caches on their properties for years and are VERY happy with the number of new patrons and our practice of CITO, we are now being required (by the local approver) to get permission for every new cache placed. Keep harassing the PTB's, and they'll get tired of granting 'permission' and just say NO in order to keep us out of their offices.

 

How much of this is 'company' policy, and how much is the approver getting a swelled head? (see how long this post stays up now...)

 

"Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Link to comment
Well, if you’re going to bring up the topic about going “off trail” then here’s what I think of that. F the trail! If it’s OK for Bartholomew Bear and Ernie Elk to wander to and fro, eating the plants and wiping their rectums with bunnies, it’s more so for me. I’m just not finding the plants to be of my liking and not having an easy time of catching a bunny

Hey Criminal - get out of my head and stop stealing my thoughts - wait, no, on second thoughts, keep on keepin' on. You are expressing it all much better than I do.

Power to ya good buddy.....

The woods and wild areas (to my mind) are for the good of all, not some dink who wants to save the possible only place where the lesser striped stink worm lives.

If the worm can't survive my walking off trail a little then, 'Sorry worm'...

OK, I sort of expect a few pokes over that one but I will not be around 'till tonight so replys will have to wait.

Link to comment
I must concur that there has been a recent tightening of the strictures involved in placing a cache. Even though the Powers That Be (PTB's) in my area have known about caches on their properties for years and are VERY happy with the number of new patrons and our practice of CITO, we are now being required (by the local approver) to get permission for every new cache placed. Keep harassing the PTB's, and they'll get tired of granting 'permission' and just say NO in order to keep us out of their offices.

 

How much of this is 'company' policy, and how much is the approver getting a swelled head? (see how long this post stays up now...)

 

"Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

I believe that the process which the cache reviewers follow is summarized in my post over here. If there are land manager policies in effect in the area where you hide a cache (for example, for state parks) then your regional approver will ask about compliance with them. The policy may have been adopted two months ago, so to you it may look like a change in Geocaching.com's position, but it really isn't. And, as stated in my linked post, if there is no policy for the reviewer to check against, there is not a whole lot for the reviewer to do except to assume that all appropriate permissions have been obtained. We are not the ones who grant permission; it is the landowners/land managers who do that. The reviewers check the cache submission against a set of listing requirements. It is an important distinction.

 

The recent restatement of the Requirements/Guidelines for Hiding a Cache was not intended to change any of the rules, but rather just to clarify how the volunteers have been applying them all along.

 

If you are aware of specific issues then please feel free to report them by e-mail to approvers at geocaching dot com, since this thread is about the general subject of obtaining permission.

Link to comment

;)

Yea, like someone would actually pick the lock on Criminal's house..

Armed,? duh! Willing to fire at anything picking a lock on his house? you be the judge...

 

Criminal, do you contract for speaking engagements?

 

I gave 20+ years service, proud of 99.8 % of it. Service to our country comes in many forms and degrees. If we don't like existing laws, we have ways to change or ammend them. Not easy to do, but our freedom makes it possible.

 

I wish geocaching had stayed more 'underground', but alas, here we are. Our IPO is out there. What next, the BIG ARTICLE in OUTSIDE Mag? That would be the kiss of death, IMNSHO.

 

In the meantime I will go off trail, downslope against the switchbacks. Stand in the Sea Oats and continue to ask forgiveness, not permission...

 

I just do things that way :P

Link to comment

I served in the Marine Corps for 4 years. I know a little about freedom too. I also learned a little disipline along the way.

 

I asked permission from the State Parks. I got a no. I persisted and with the help of a bunch of other people the State Parks created a geocaching policy. Now the Arkansas State parks are a geocaching partner. (There is a link somewhere).

 

I caught a lot of flack for my efforts including a considerable amout from [those] who manage this site. I guess they wanted all the credit.

 

I am not surprised that an airforce lifer thinks tresspassing is a suitable practice. They don't normally have to get on the ground with the land owner.

 

[Edited to remove offensive term.]

Edited by Keystone Approver
Link to comment

What a difference from yesterday. Aside from a few scattered Fyou's and the usual misunderstanding, this is a great thread. Criminal, great post. Couldn't have said it better. Keystone, nice subtle moderating.

 

Typically when I hide a cache I will check the park rules. As long as I'm not breaking any of the rules I go ahead and place my cache. If it is not perfectly clear, or it seems like a particularly sensitive area I will discuss it with the management, not necessarily ask permission, but discuss it. Right now I'm working on getting permission to place a cache on National Park Land Property. It is going very well. I have walked the grounds with the manager and talked about an appropriate place to hide the cache. We have mutually agreed on a couple of locations that would not harm the area and have also agreed on other terms to get it approved. Diplomacy goes a long way. The managers like the idea of geocaching on these particular grounds, it will bring more attention to the area which they are in favor of as it is also a tourist attraction.

 

I'll admit I'm not as totally free as Criminal. I still look over my shoulder when placing a cache. Still working on the early childhood guilt complex thing

 

That's not guilt. The looking over your shoulder and having to be stealthy is a big part of what makes the game appealing.

 

Les, Stop being so sensitive. I think you just like to disagree with people. ;)

Link to comment

Here in MD we have hiding guidelines in place for a majority of the state. The MGS has worked hard with park officials to get this procedure implemented. At the heart is respect for the property and a willingness to work together. If permission is required by a county or state park, then you must get it before the cache will be approved. This approval is part of the rules for Maryland. When submitting a new cache, you acknowledge that you have adhered to the rules of the area you are placing the cache.

 

Here is a link to our guidelines:

http://www.mdgps.net/modules.php?name=Parks

Link to comment

Sorry, I cannot join the Criminal Fan Club today. I have a few points I'd like to respond to.

 

Asking permission doesn't have to be a lengthy process. I traded three or four emails and had blanket permission for every park in that town. Other Geocachers don't have to ask now. Some places, it has become a pain to place a cache, others, it's really easy.

 

The idea of "flunky" parks managers is a little insulting to people that have a tough job. Someone has to be the person that maintains the park. If you really feel that person is too far down the totem pole to make a decision, why not go to that person's manager? There is some truth about some land managers- they are power-hungry people that get a thrill out of saying "no".

 

Not asking is your right, but someone else may have to pay the price because you didn't think it necessary to ask before placing a cache.

Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Followers 3
×
×
  • Create New...