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Am I A "freeloader"?


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Just because we don't contribute greenbacks to this site doesn't mean we don't contribute at all!

 

We have been caching for two years now. It all started in New York, when my wife followed a link to another caching website. We didn't have a GPS and went by the maps. We found a few caches without a gps, and even found part two of a cache that we weren't even looking for. Ever since that day, my family has been hooked. We fell in love with N*vicache and found about 60 caches on that site.

Then one day I noticed some log entries in some caches that lead us to this site.

So needless to say we use both sites now.

 

We have moved to Colorado now and are very active geocachers. I believe in caching in and trashing out, trading fair, respecting the land, and have the upmost respect for this site and my fellow cachers. Since we have moved back to Colorado, I have gotten a lot people intersted in geocaching. Like my DAD, sister, and even some of the kid's school teachers. And we mention to them of both sites available. So we do feel like we do our part.

 

Money or no money, Upinyachit IS NO FREELOADER! There are plenty of people that don't contribute money! It doesn't mean they can't be a part of the geocaching community.

 

Duane

Upinyachit

;)

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It has nothing to do with freeloading or whether you contribute anything at all.

 

Management has decided to set up a two tier membership system - free and charged The free part encourages people to get involved in geocaching. It's kind of like get free software but the "lite" version. If you like it, the owners hope you upgrade and buy the full feature version. It's a marketing decision by Geocaching.com At any point they can change their minds and start charging everyone.

Edited by Alan2
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Just because we don't contribute greenbacks to this site doesn't mean we don't contribute at all!

 

We have been caching for two years now. It all started in New York, when my wife followed a link to another caching website. We didn't have a GPS and went by the maps. We found a few caches without a gps, and even found part two of a cache that we weren't even looking for. Ever since that day, my family has been hooked. We fell in love with N*vicache and found about 60 caches on that site.

Then one day I noticed some log entries in some caches that lead us to this site.

So needless to say we use both sites now.

 

We have moved to Colorado now and are very active geocachers. I believe in caching in and trashing out, trading fair, respecting the land, and have the upmost respect for this site and my fellow cachers. Since we have moved back to Colorado, I have gotten a lot people intersted in geocaching. Like my DAD, sister, and even some of the kid's school teachers. And we mention to them of both sites available. So we do feel like we do our part.

 

Money or no money, Upinyachit IS NO FREELOADER! There are plenty of people that don't contribute money! It doesn't mean they can't be a part of the geocaching community.

 

Duane

Upinyachit

;)

I dont see you as a freeloader. You are a fellow cacher.

 

BTW drop by the C.A.C.H.E. Forums they just started up and we could use another voice to get things rolling

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I voted for freeloader. ;):P

 

Personally it does not matter to me either way to an extent I guess. I'm not going to get into some of it since its been beaten to death in threads that have now become locked.

 

One thing that you see rather often is that after someone has been involved for a while that they graduate to a membership. Not always for one reason or another but I think it only seems right to contribute one way or another. You do. So do I in as many ways as I can but thats what works for me. Thats what makes me feel good but at the same time I don't feel I own this place nor do I want to.

 

So, is there a reason for not becoming a "paying" member? Just curious and don't feel obligated to answer.

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I've never looked at folks who don't pay as a freeloader here. It is meant as a free service.

 

I lurked here without registering for a few months until I decided to participate and bought a GPSr. Then I registered, as a paying member, to help support the site because I wanted to. Only later did I start using pocket queries, which are the only real extra feature I use.

 

I hope they keep the free membership. When talking to the Parks people, one of their first questions is "does it cost anything"? Answering "no, other than buying a GPS" always gets me a good response. People are more likely to try this if the service is free. (Although after buying a GPSr, and all the other items you eventually get, $30 is a trifle.)

Edited by DustyJacket
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If you think you're a freeloader, you are. If you don't you aren't. In the old days of BBS'ing people could trade files with an upload download ratio (for x files uploaded you can download x files). It isn't the case with geocaching. Base your decision on your own moral guidelines.

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Just because we don't contribute greenbacks to this site doesn't mean we don't contribute at all!

 

We have been caching for two years now. It all started in New York, when my wife followed a link to another caching website. We didn't have a GPS and went by the maps. We found a few caches without a gps, and even found part two of a cache that we weren't even looking for. Ever since that day, my family has been hooked. We fell in love with N*vicache and found about 60 caches on that site.

Then one day I noticed some log entries in some caches that lead us to this site.

So needless to say we use both sites now.

 

We have moved to Colorado now and are very active geocachers. I believe in caching in and trashing out, trading fair, respecting the land, and have the upmost respect for this site and my fellow cachers. Since we have moved back to Colorado, I have gotten a lot people intersted in geocaching. Like my DAD, sister, and even some of the kid's school teachers. And we mention to them of both sites available. So we do feel like we do our part.

 

Money or no money, Upinyachit IS NO FREELOADER! There are plenty of people that don't contribute money! It doesn't mean they can't be a part of the geocaching community.

 

Duane

Upinyachit

;)

We are a sport that is outgrowing GC.com. The thing we need is a body of players from around the world to set up a system of rules and land use permissions for various areas.

 

The need for this is pressing. Some of us will be able to contribute business or legal skills, others money, others time and effort.

 

Contribute in this way.

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Call it what you will, but if a geocacher has found over 100 caches ( under a 100 still a tad pole ) and does not help out this site for a sport that they obviously enjoy to help pay for the new services, and old, like bandwidth, severs, payroll, lights ect. then yes in my book you are a slacker.

 

When I became a premium member there were no extra services but with the input of funds GC.com was able to bring new features them to us.

 

About every other thread on this site is asking for new services and the other half is complaining about services or the way the site handles things and what they want and don’t have, WHO you think pays the bills for these. Its caring geocachers that would like the best site out there to play this great sport.

 

If you can’t afford the three bucks a month how do you buy gas to go on a cache hunt or even batteries?

 

I think that the Getting Starting Forums should be the only area that a non paying member should be able to post in.

 

This subject has been brought up so many times before either pay or don’t, if you can justify that you support the site in other ways to help you fell better that’s fine but who hid the caches you found and who wears that T shirt you got from the store, nothing in life worth having is free.

 

In my book if you don’t help out with a little cash for the site , you are a slacker…………..JOE

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Sure I'll tell you. Two years ago when I first joined as a non-paying member, some paying members who in my opinion were sycophants went out of their way to try to embarrass non-paying members, calling them names like "freeloader" and "cheap" and heaping abuse of all kind. Their theory was that Groundspeak needed support in the form of "charity" and anyone who didn't pay was a subversive of some kind. Management never stepped in to stop the name calling (boy have things changed now with the moderators!). In fact I believe management encouraged the name calling to up the paying membership by embarrassing non-paying members by allowing the abuse to continue. I'm sure many people payed because they didn't like taking the attacks.

 

But I got an attitude and have refused to become a paying member. I "contribute" by placing caches, posting witty posts, answering questions from newbies and being ironically sarcastic. ;)

 

Most of the name calling has ended and management has become forthright in regularly saying that this is a business with a two tier membership, a position I appreciate them stating.

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Two years ago when I first joined as a non-paying member, some paying members who in my opinion were sycophants went  out of their way to try to embarrass non-paying members, calling them names like "freeloader" and "cheap" and heaping abuse of all kind.

Not true. This topic is basically a rehashing of the same opinions as two years ago. If you want to show the non veterans the previous post, I'm sure it would come up in a search.

 

Some think you're a freeloader if you find a ton of caches and don't contribute financially to support the bandwidth and machines that run the web site. Some feel that you can contribute in other ways, like lobby the local park officials or place your own cache. Either way it is ultimately you as an individual that decides whether you are a freeloader or you aren't.

Edited by Jeremy
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Gee, looks like I spoke too soon. While I was preparing my last post, others including management have jumped in saying the same derogatory things I complained about two years ago. Nothing has changed!

 

Jeremy, your statement is an unvarnished attempt to embarrass non-payers. You ought to be defending non-payers position and asking the namecallers to back off especially in light of the recent moderating rules you have imposed. Instead you're encouraging it. I thought you stopped. If you want everyone to pay, then charge everyone. You cannot have it both ways. As you have said many times before, Groundspeak is a business and does not accept charity. You charge fees. But you also don't charge fees. As I said two years ago, if you need money than show your accounts. All non-profits do that. But if you want to keep your books private, certain you have that right a a for-profit corporation, do that. But don't make it seem like non-payers are immoral. That's just plain wrong.

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A simple search on the term "freeloader" will demonstrate Jeremy's point. Yes, that term had been leveled in the past. But it is not true that management sat idly by and encouraged it. One needs only to read the old posts, which speak for themselves. Jeremy's posts today... that it is a personal decision whether to contribute financially to the site... are 100% consistent with the posts I read in similar threads in the past.

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Forget two years ago. Today, a few posts above is Jeremy calling some members freeloaders, a term ,ost people would call derogatory and a personal attack something against the rules of posting. I guess only management has the right to name call. Where's the moderators when you need them?

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In the old days of BBS'ing people could trade files with an upload download ratio (for x files uploaded you can download x files).

Could you imagine having to have a 1:10 (place:find) ratio? You'd have to blanket a city to hit a thousand.

 

At the moment, I guess I'm at 20%. I've got to work on lowering that.

 

I joined because I felt it was the right thing to do. I run some Internet ventures. One that wa supposed to be big got started with a single Beta site and a flopped marketing campaign. The Beta site switched it's entire business system online and has had it free for three years. With no one paying, it hasn't gotten better. Even with just a percentage (I'm guessing 20%, using the 80/20 rule) contributing cash, the whole community has benefited (i.e. new maps, better site, faster approvals). Without the money, it stays the same as it did at the beginning. You can't get the money without asking.

 

I like what's happened. I'm excited to see it grow even more.

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Forget two years ago.  Today, a few posts above is Jeremy calling some members freeloaders, a term ,ost people would call derogatory and a personal attack something against the rules of posting.  I guess only management has the right to name call.  Where's the moderators when you need them?

Jeremy did not call some members freeloaders above. He wrote

Either way it is ultimately you as an individual that decides whether you are a freeloader or you aren't.

 

As for me, I contribute money because gc.com is a service I use. I pay for the service. I'm only a tadpole and haven't placed any caches, but there are nearly 3000 in this area already. I decided I could contribute by making TBs, which is another way to contribute to Groundspeak too.

Edited by brad.32
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Forget two years ago. Today, a few posts above is Jeremy calling some members freeloaders, a term ,ost people would call derogatory and a personal attack something against the rules of posting. I guess only management has the right to name call. Where's the moderators when you need them?

I must have missed something :) I can see Jeremy's post but I don't see any statement like your describing (i.e. "I think"). It's amazing how two people can read the same thing and come away with different interpretations ;) I don't agree that Jeremy is being "derogatory" at all IMHO.

 

People who contribute time to the sport are the real heroes. Whether it's negotiating with land managers, organizing CITO's or events, or just putting out more caches. It's swell that people fork up the greenbacks to support the site, but the real army of people who contribute their time are the ones that will make this sport grow. :P

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Saying that someone who uses this site without taking out a paid for subscription, is a "freeloader" is, to me, equivalent to saying that Geocaching.com is a freeloader by making free use of all of the caches that people have hidden and posted to this site. Both characterizations are wrong. People hide caches and post them here because they want to - ie its in their own best interests. Geocaching.com doesn't charge to use this site because its in their own best interests.

 

I still find it interesting, how a "paid for" subscription is still characterized by many, including this site as some kind of good deed - as if there is some positive moral value to your subscription. Admin statments found on this site such as "Support Geocaching: Become a Premium Member" and "Your subscription dollars at work..." reinforce the erroneous conception that somehow this site is a charity, and paying for a subscription is the morally right thing to do. The flip side of this sentiment, accordingly must be that not paying is somehow immoral. I did not exercise any moral judgment when I renewed my subscription. It was an economic one - I like pocket queries and was prepared to pay for them.

Edited by seneca
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People who contribute time to the sport are the real heroes. Whether it's negotiating with land managers, organizing CITO's or events, or just putting out more caches. It's swell that people fork up the greenbacks to support the site, but the real army of people who contribute their time are the ones that will make this sport grow. ;)

I couldn't agree more.

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I discovered geocaching this past August. My son and I love discovering caches, finding interesting places to explore, etc. We have bought an arsonal of things to go along with us...cameras, walkingsticks, camera bags to carry everything in, geocache stickers on our car, gps, we've even begun a picture book journal of our adventures...it has become a hobby that has greatly enriched our lives. Geocaching gets us out of the house, away from the TV, and often back into nature. We plan entire days around our cache searches. We take in meals afterwords.

When I first discovered this sight, I was amazed at how well it iwas put together. I can post digital images of our adventures, read all about other players, keep track of my caching, look at and create picture galleries, read and discuss geocaching through forums. I can find caches all over the world from the comfort of my own home. It is a very user friendly sight as well with many other features too numerous to mention here.

I well remember why I decided to pay for the use of this sight. When I realized how much I truly enjoyed this sport, I made a decision to support this site financially. I felt compelled to give back for all I have already received...and I've only done about 25 caches so far! I didn't even care about the better features available for paying members (although I do use the pocket queries!). I cannot imaging the time, energy and money that must be needed/given to keep this sight as professional, current and always expanding and improving as it is. I cannot imagine getting out of caching what I do and not supporting this site financially. It's not like it's $100 a year or anything. On the other hand, I think it's cool that it can be free. I may not have tried it in the beginnning had I had to throw down the cash right away. I would hope people like me who have really taken to this sport (and can afford the $30) support the people who are out there making it possible. I recently told someone about caching and this sight and he said someone must be getting rich doing this! I highly doubt it, but even if they are great! They created a sport me and thosands of others to enjoy, and I really appreciate it! ;)

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.... someone must be getting rich doing this! I highly doubt it, but even if they are great!

From personal observation, this is decidedly not true. Anyone else who has crammed into the back seat of Jeremy's used Saturn for a day of geocaching would probably agree with me.

 

They created a sport me and thosands of others to enjoy, and I really appreciate it! 

Clarification: If by "They" you mean The Powers That Be, "they" did not create the sport. Geocaching sprouted up elsewhere and Jeremy was an early participant. What "They" did do was to create a killer website for facilitating the activity and its phenomenal growth. I think it's important to differentiate between the two.

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A business owner should never even imply that any of his customers are "freeloaders" especially since it was he who set up non-paying membership obviously for business reasons. It should not be part of his vocabulary. By him saying it's up to the member to decide if he's a freeloader, he's using rhetoric to imply that very thing. That's name calling.

 

If he thinks that after 100 caches you should pay, then he should run his business that way and charge. As long as the owner sets the rules the way he sets them, there is no such thing as "freeloading". If he needs additoinal money beasue of business costs, le him raise rates. If he's looking for "charity" he should become a non-profit and show his bookd like any other non-profit. You cannot have it both ways.

 

These are the same arguments we had two years ago. Nothing has changed.

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I joined to be sure that I did my part to be sure that this site didn't fail and the sport collapse due to lack of coordination.

 

I do feel that this sport is outgrowing GC.com and needs other support to get to the next level. If Upinyachit or some other cacher were able to get the department of the interior to sit down and discuss some set of formal rules for geocaching that all the NWS and BLM areas would use, then we would be eternally grateful and would all agree that it was easily worth $30 to have accomplished this.

 

The sport needs some stable media exposure on a national level (ie: fox sports show 54321). Getting this would be a real contribution

 

The sport needs some standardization. The "put any kind of container any where you want" approach isn't working. It looks like litter or bombs, it is hard to publicize what they look like. If we could send in a photo to the newspaper and say "we are geocachers, and this is the box that we look for, if you see one while out walking the dogs, please leave it alone." Imagine the impact on the number of 911 calls to the bomb squad or the number of caches that go missing if we could.

 

How about setting up a two tier system with tier one being cachers and tier two being cache hiders? Set up some limit as to how many caches you need to find before becoming a cache hider. Only list caches that are placed by registered hiders that are labeled in the standard manner. Set up a training program on line (using Blackboard or some other online education software) to learn the regs in your country (again getting back to standard rules) and the tips that we all can contribute regarding really good hides, bad containers, good containers, etc. This would be a contribution as well.

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Saying that someone who uses this site without taking out a paid for subscription, is a "freeloader" is, to me, equivalent to saying that Geocaching.com is a freeloader by making free use of all of the caches that people have hidden and posted to this site. Both characterizations are wrong. People hide caches and post them here because they want to - ie its in their own best interests. Geocaching.com doesn't charge to use this site because its in their own best interests.

 

I still find it interesting, how a "paid for" subscription is still characterized by many, including this site as some kind of good deed - as if there is some positive moral value to your subscription. Admin statments found on this site such as "Support Geocaching: Become a Premium Member" and "Your subscription dollars at work..." reinforce the erroneous conception that somehow this site is a charity, and paying for a subscription is the morally right thing to do. The flip side of this sentiment, accordingly must be that not paying is somehow immoral. I did not exercise any moral judgment when I renewed my subscription. It was an economic one - I like pocket queries and was prepared to pay for them.

Thanks Seneca. I was feeling very lonely until your post. Nice point about fees the other way. We should be charging Groundspeak for allowing them to post our caches. After all, without the caches there would be no site and no income from advertisers or paying members. Here's the bill of fare: Groundspeak should pay $1 for a conventional cache and $2 for a multiple. Only 50 cents for a virtual though. :P

 

Ths is not really a bad idea. The amount of caches would increase and with that the number of cachers who would pay offsetting the cost and making even more money for Groundspeak so they can provide more services. Everyone wins! ;)

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QUOTE:

I have not attacked anyone but slackers because it deprives me of more services,

 

I tried hard to walk away from this tread, but I keep coming back to these words.

Well Joe, by your definition:

 

QUOTE:

Call it what you will, but if a geocacher has found over 100 caches ( under a 100 still a tad pole ) and does not help out this site for a sport that they obviously enjoy to help pay for the new services, and old, like bandwidth, severs, payroll, lights ect. then yes in my book you are a slacker.

 

I'm exempt from your slur, since I don't yet have 100 finds. I still find you to be an arrogant, self righteous individual. If the people who have set up this site proclaim its services and info to be free, like much of the internet, what gives you the right to pass judgement on others lack of ponying up $$$$ for additional services they feel they don't need ? Heck, most of the cachers I know, have never set foot in these forums.Your stats show you get a HUGE amount of caching in, so evidently you don't have a whole lot of worries or extra responsibilities in your life.

 

GREAT ! Happy for you. You have made good choices obviously in your life, and have had no unavoidable calamities that take away your free time.

 

Not all of us are so blessed. I would love to contribute financially to this site, as I enjoy caching. If things improve with my monetary status, I still will. But, till then, I will continue using all the free services of this site, with or without your blessing.

My gas, battery, and gps money are my business. If you need so many services to enjoy this sport, work some overtime and donate it. My extra time goes to my family and community. We make do with what we can afford, and find happiness within those bounds.

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Anyone else who has crammed into the back seat of Jeremy's used Saturn for a day of geocaching would probably agree with me.

He had to buy a Vespa after the Saturn got repo'd. ;)

 

You wanna pay, and get extra features, then pay. If you don't want to, or can't, then don't.

 

Easy, see?

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nothing in life worth having is free.

Well, I have to disregard on this. Just let me think...

For me love has always been free... from the financial point of view. Maybe other people have different experiences :P ...but I would say that a love story like mine is worth having. Music I play is free. And worth. A walk after dinner in the mild spring we are having here in Chile. The condor that glided beneath me near the Aconcagua some months ago. The stars at night in the Atacama desert. To have one of the most amazing jobs in the world, is totally free (better, they PAY me for doing it!) Good friends... The list may continue.

 

There's a LOT of free things which are worth have, or experience, or remember. And I usually don't measure the value of something looking at my credit card bill.

Maybe I'm a romantic... On the other extreme I know people who not only care how much they spend for the things, but also how much other people spend for it ;) . Well It's one of the good things of life, the diversity, I suppose.

 

Upinyachit, Jeremy has already said all, in my view. It's up to you, how do you feel? If you don't feel to be guilty, that's all. If you feel you are doing right, do what you feel right.

 

Jeremy built a website. He's a full grown man, and I suppose that he knows how to do his math. He decided that you may have some services for free. He also decided that to have somewhere else you have to pay. For now I'm OK this way. The day that something in the site, or in my involvement in this will change, I will act accordingly.

 

I understand perfectly how a person could feel better for he is contributing to something he enjoys.

I find ... amusing that a person may feel to be better than me (or than you) for paying 30 dollars (or 3000). There's something, in such perception of values and reality, I frankly can't get...

 

But, obviously, this is NOT the attitude of the overwhelming majority of paying members here. Nor of Jeremy & Co. So my suggestion is: leave the angry ones with their anger.

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Very eloquently stated. My hat is off to you team tar for saying what I felt, but was too distracted to say.

 

I've heard a saying, a diplomat is someone who can tell you to go to hell in sucha way that you look forward to the trip. I still haven't mastered such, but hope to. Reading your post is good training, thank you.

 

So my suggestion is: leave the angry ones with their anger. ;)

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We are a sport that is outgrowing GC.com. The thing we need is a body of players from around the world to set up a system of rules and land use permissions for various areas.

 

The need for this is pressing. Some of us will be able to contribute business or legal skills, others money, others time and effort.

 

Contribute in this way.

To and extent, to an extent.

 

I don't know if its so much 'out growing gc.c' as it is becoming more and more important to have local geocaching groups. We have one here in Michigan and its great for a great many reasons. As I've said before, I think that geocaching is becoming more about community and branching out in that aspect as the local org's popup. This organization on a local level is good for all involved gc.c included.

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Am I a Freeloader?

 

No. If this was a pay only site where everyone had to pay and you hacked into it to get the service for free then you would be a freeloader.

 

If you think you're a freeloader, you are.

 

IMHO that could have been a little less abrasive. You offer this site for free. The only answer to the question of 'am I a freeloader? is No.

 

Call it what you will, but if a geocacher has found over 100 caches ( under a 100 still a tad pole ) and does not help out this site for a sport that they obviously enjoy to help pay for the new services, and old, like bandwidth, severs, payroll, lights etc. then yes in my book you are a slacker.

 

Gee, thanks for setting that guideline Joe. By your rule GC.com would have missed out a bit as I became a paying member after only about 10 finds.

 

Jeremy, your statement is an unvarnished attempt to embarrass non-payers.

 

Some think you're a freeloader if you find a ton of caches and don't contribute financially to support the bandwidth and machines that run the web site.[/font]

 

I don't think it was meant to embarrass, just maybe make them feel a little guilty.

 

either pay up or shut up

 

Yesterday this post would have been deleted within seconds and they would have been right.

 

It's amazing how two people can read the same thing and come away with different interpretations  I don't agree that Jeremy is being "derogatory" at all IMHO.

 

I think that problem stems from not being face to face with someone. You don't really a feeling for how they mean a certain statement. I don't think Jeremy was being derogatory either, but I can see Alan's point.

Either way it is ultimately you as an individual that decides whether you are a freeloader or you aren't.
If you think you're a freeloader, you are.
Base your decision on your own moral guidelines.

There are a few different ways these statement could be taken. I don't think Jeremy is being derogatory. I do think in his gut he wants and probably needs more people to be paying members. I can't imagine it would be easy for him to just say, 'no, that’s ok, your not free loading.' I know what it's like to own and run a business. It can suck the life out of you. Not to mention the money. It is completely impossible to keep everyone happy all of the time. To try is a exercise in futility. Yet the people at Groundspeak try just the same. It fine to disagree, but statements like 'pay up or shut up' accomplish nothing and the admins should be all over that post. As for me I will continue to support this site both financially and in other ways. I think it's worth every penny if not much more. Those of you that have specific reasons not to be paying member I can truly respect. For those of you, if the means are there, yes I do think you should pony up the 3 bucks a month. Either way, like CO said we are all geocachers.

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Team Tar. Your post is perfect. I read it 4 or 5 times. On some aspects we might see things a little differently but I really got a lot out of reading it. Very, Very well said. I wish I could have taken your advise: "leave the angry ones with their anger".

Thanks.

Edited by J&MBella
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The site is free...you are not freeloading or are a slacker.

 

I'm a paid member. Mainly for the pocket queries. There's really no other benefit of doing it with excpetion that you are helping support the site. I can understand that generating the pocket queries do take a toll and the monies help out with that.

 

Personally I wouldn't have a problem with it all being a paid membership, but it won't happen because if it did, then they would lose some business. Premium memberships are voluntary. You help them out and they help you out. In my case with pocket queries. I don't always agree with everything, but that's my perogative. As Jeremy stated about if you feel you are one, then you are and vice versa. I feel that I am a part of the GC site as I do contribute financially. But that's jsut me. I feel no different towards those who don't. Jeremy can and will decide as to whether what and who to charge...

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It's amazing how clouded things can get when emotion is allowed to run unchecked. So many folks seem to have assumed Jeremy said something he didn't - please read it before jumping on the bandwagon. There was nothing accusatory in his words; It simply comes down to this: make up your own mind. It's true that if you THINK you are a freeloader, you probably are harboring guilt. If you don't feel guilty, then as said before: If you didn't hack the site, you're *not* a freeloader. Bottom line: Jeremy's post was specifically respectful of BOTH viewpoints.

 

I also find it interesting to see folks comparing the requests for membership to a charity, and references to making people feel guilty for not paying. I have never seen a reference to charity. What I've seen is a very open participation policy from a group which is operating a for-profit business. You can get deeply addicted to this sport without a premium membership. The additional premiuim services aren't a huge bonus on top of the thrill of finding a cache and interacting with like minded folks. Premium services are more like the right spices on an already great meal. The requests for membership are no more than this: "Hey, this costs money to run. If you'd like our implementation of this sport, and want to see it grow, please invest in us and we'll give you something that polishes your experience a bit." I never felt guilty during my first year of "freeloading". Instead, I felt grateful.

 

On to another point I'm not seeing much traction on. For everyone who is deeply opposed to paying for geocaching, why are you here? I don't mean that offensively; To clarify, I'm saying "why aren't you using NaviCache?" It's also a nice site, and has a very extensive database of caches. I would imagine that you're here becaue you found this site's methodology enjoyable, and of some value to you. I certainly do. But if one feels strongly about geogaching being 100% free then perhaps this site is inherantly the wrong forum, and an alternative would be a more comfortable environment? My only point here is that you have choices. Choices don't need to be controversial if they are respected.

 

It seems that there are two factions which are particularly vocal: Those who think that GC.com is a service people need to pay for, and those who think that GC.com is nothing without the caches its members hide. Folks, this is what we call a symbiotic relationship. Bottom line is your caches wouldn't get the same traffic without GC.com, and GC.com wouldn't have a virtual monopoly on the sport if its way of managing those records wasn't popular. Neither can flourish without the other. I have a different take: each cache "owner" has an item of fractional value which is constant whether the site is on GC.com or NaviCache.com. The REAL value comes not from a single data point, but in a methodology of making that information available to other participants in the sport. Again, you have options. As a community we need to stop bickering and excercise our options. Constructive controversial discussion is great, but if you feel that you are loosing control of yourself, perhaps you need to find a site that gives you a better lock on the satellited of your choosing.

 

Those of you who follow Open Source software might find many parallels to the Cathedral and Bazaar in this discussion. Open source software doesn't have to be without cost, but its real value starts to show when one sees the synergistic value that comes from a community working together. GC.com allows a community to flourish and collaberate (obviously - these forums are pretty active!) while covering the expenses associated with that service. And here's the beauty of it all: Anyone can go out and put a server in a co-lo facilty, build competition for GC.com, and recruit cache-owners to participate in the experience THEY build. None of you signed an exclusivity contract with GC.com. Those who can't build such infrastructure should aknowledge that they are enjoying a service which they wouldn't have access to otherwise. For those who think the listing service should pay you to list your cache - don't get mad at those of us who disagree, instead develop your own alternative listing engine and see if the experiment works. It still furthers our mutual sport, and I wish you the best.

 

Thanks for listening - See you in the woods, where we all agree life is good! ;)

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I wish I could have taken your advise: "leave the angry ones with their anger". 

To you and Captain Chaoss: thanks, too kind. Geez... What is the emoticon which means "embarassed and getting all red in my face"?

 

Anyway, I too would like to be up to my last statement in real life. I found that there's two ways to see the net discussions

 

1) Cool: no one can see my face here so I can say anything I like

2) Here I may read something that upsets me. Then wait. Then read it again. Then start to reply. Then wait again, reread my reply and at the end decide not to post it (70 % of the cases), or to put it in a better way.

 

The second is the one I like because I cannot do so in the real life and I don't react always in the smart way when taken by surprise. And is not only a matter of "putting it so the other seems more stupid than you". Is also to try to see if someone, beyond an attitude that is upsetting you, may have something to say.

 

Ok, I have been enough politically correct for today: THAT MORON WHO... :P:)

 

My thinking about the membership is simple. As Seneca stated, Groundspeak does NOT own my caches, but, as someone else stated, our caches are in fact Groundspeak's assesments. Without our caches, Groundspeak would have much less to be paid for. So anyone who places a cache, anyone who helps anyone else in the forum IS contributing to this site.

Yes, they say, but I pay so I contribute more.

Yes, I say, but I paced 750 caches and you 1 so I contribute more.

Will we continue this sublimly childlish dispute endlessly? Where do we arrive?"Yes, but I placed caches that were WAAAAY better placed, better stuffed and more challenging that yours"?

 

Come on. It's Jeremy's site. Is quite simple: his site, his bandwidth, his servers, his hours coding the html. So HE DOES THE RULES. He says I'm fine without paying? No one else has ANY right to tell me I'm not. He says I have to pay? That day I will decide if to pay or if to go to another site, or quit geocaching or anything.

 

... Then while I was trying to write more I discovered that Javamutt already said it. Well... better. This meands I have to go back to my work I suppose... ;)

Edited by team_tar
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... Then while I was trying to write more I discovered that Javamutt already said it. Well... better. This meands I have to go back to my work I suppose...  ;)

 

Glad my words hit home! I talked this one through with Java before typing our collective thoughts (in the spirit of waiting before submitting). In life, as in geocaching, the way always seems more clear through the eyes of my dogs. :P

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I am not a angry person, just frustrated this subject has been brought up quite a few times by someone that was trying to justify why they were not helping the site out, with the same results, flaming of anyone who thinks they should for whatever reason, so flame on and BTW I am having a real good day (

(all smiles)………..JOE

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I see both sides. The site does need donations to keep running, no question, especially since it dosn't have those STUPID pop up or banner ads. And I plan on donating to the site at the beginning of the year after Christmas (I am on a limited income and don't have a credit card for the 3 buck a thing). But I care less about the "extras". However, I think publically identifying paying members from non-paying members on geocaching.com is simply wrong and designed only to embarass non-paying members. What I would do, encourage people to subscribe by giving them pocket queries (already done) and maybe some advanced searching capacity (like being able to download 1,000's of waypoints at one time, quality map searches, statistics et al) but NEVER identifying the paying members from the non-paying members in public. Walmart treats all their customers the same if they spend 50 cents or 10,000 dollars. In other words, get rid of the checkmarks by the names on this forum, the ability to change your handle from geocacher, and not lableing them as "premium members". Clearly, this is a issue that is really dividing up people. I would see very little financial impact and in fact, I bet Jeremy might get an increase in donations by doing it this way. Also expanding t-shirts and other geocaching gear would net him some money.

 

Cheers,

Blake

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I've been thinking some more about this subject while listening to my public radio station....and this thought occured to me. Frankly, I see little difference between this site and a public radio station that asks for donations. A person can turn on the radio and receive the benefit of listening to uninterupted public radio for free whenever they want to. Or a person who can contribute to this radio station financially and feels so inclined can choose to do so. They might get a little perk such as a monthly guide book to programming or a mug. The bottom line is that it is a choice and it is dependent upon a person's financial status and the level of importance the service has in their lives. What's cool is with both organizations, we have the freedom to choose. Pubic Radio will never decide to make everyone contribute or they can't listen...nor should Groundspeak.

I do not contribute to either of these services out of guilt, but instead out of appreciation and because I can. As far as acknowleding publicly who contributes, I could care less about any kind of acknowledement. Yet, if you listen to public radio, they publicly acknowledge their personal sponsors. Symphonies and Theaters do the same in their programs. If I go and see a show and my name is not listed in the program so what. Yet, is it really wrong to acknowlege those that can and do choose to contribute? I don't think it makes anyone who doesn't choose or cannot afford to choose wrong or lessor people. The hope is that more people will choose to contribute and thus services will continue to improve for all. But, it should, in the end, always remain free to those who choose not to contribute for whatever reason.

Edited by team walkingsticks
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I really like Walkingstick's comparison to a public radio station - except that GC.com luckily doesn't have telethons! I suppose pop-ups are the electronic equivalent. With the amount of time I've spent on this site, I'm happy to see it hasn't journeyed down the dark side.

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So, is there a reason for not becoming a "paying" member? Just curious and don't feel obligated to answer.

 

The truth is, I love N*vicache, and that is where I will send my money. Like I said, I have the upmost respect for this site, but I would like to see the other site grow too. If you were to read our logs over there, you might understand my reasonings. :D

 

I am not a angry person, just frustrated this subject has been brought up quite a few times by someone that was trying to justify why they were not helping the site out,

 

Please don't get frustrated....This is a fun hobby and wasn't designed to bring on stress. B)

 

 

Upinyachit :ph34r:

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After only a couple of weeks, and less than 20 caches under my belt, I decided it was time to become a member. Part of it was admittedly curiosity over member features, and while the PQ's make life more convenient, it doesn't compare to the feeling of "right" I get from contributing. Every time I have asked a question of one of the employees or volunteers at Groundspeak, they have been helpful, polite, and enthusiastic. If you want to look at it as a business, then that's service at it's best. Still, I use this site more than any other site on the net, spend hours each day looking at cache pages and forum posts, and feel good about giving $30 to the site that provides me with so much convenience and entertainment. However, I don't think anyone who chooses not to pay is a slacker in any way. Just because you pass a charity collection box, and don't put a couple bucks in doesn't make you a slacker, if you gave a penny to every charity out there, you'd be dead broke and in need of charity yourself.

Don't be led into thinking that I believe Groundspeak is a charity. The mention of charity was only an analogy. Think of all of the free things you enjoy every day. If you paid to do them, you'd go broke quick that way too.

Since the site is a source of a large part of my daily entertainment, it's a no-brainer. It's a way to contribute to the sport (GC.com does a lot to promote geocaching) for guys like me who lack the resources to promote it on the same scale.

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I see both sides. The site does need donations to keep running, no question, especially since it dosn't have those STUPID pop up or banner ads. And I plan on donating to the site at the beginning of the year after Christmas (I am on a limited income and don't have a credit card for the 3 buck a thing). But I care less about the "extras". However, I think publically identifying paying members from non-paying members on geocaching.com is simply wrong and designed only to embarass non-paying members. What I would do, encourage people to subscribe by giving them pocket queries (already done) and maybe some advanced searching capacity (like being able to download 1,000's of waypoints at one time, quality map searches, statistics et al) but NEVER identifying the paying members from the non-paying members in public. Walmart treats all their customers the same if they spend 50 cents or 10,000 dollars. In other words, get rid of the checkmarks by the names on this forum, the ability to change your handle from geocacher, and not lableing them as "premium members". Clearly, this is a issue that is really dividing up people. I would see very little financial impact and in fact, I bet Jeremy might get an increase in donations by doing it this way. Also expanding t-shirts and other geocaching gear would net him some money.

 

Cheers,

Blake

I agree with most of your post, but I disagree with the abolition of personalised avatar captions. I like being able to personalize my posts a bit, and have been entertained by the captions under many others' avatars.

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Every person is unique in thier own way!

 

On May 1st of this year I started visiting this site and found my first cache that day. At first I really didn't know what to think to be able to find so much enjoyment for not only myself but also my family for FREE. After a month or so of viewing this site numerous times a day I started feeling a little guilty of not paying my part to help keep up the site as well as its contiuned growth. I still enjoyed it for free for a few more months.

 

Then one day I thought to myself "what would happen if everyone decided to be like me and NOT be a paid member? Would there even be a geocaching.com site?" "Would I have to go to the N site where my closest cache is 60 miles from my home?" It was then that I decided to fork over my part. I agree with Bloencustoms, it was a great feeling! I have since purchased a palm and started using one of the premium membership features, the pocket queries. Boy, those are worth a lot more since I am not running out and paying $30.00 for printer cartriges every few weeks.

 

In closing I want to ask those that are not paid members a few simple questions:

 

1. Just how much do you enjoy this sport/hobby?

2. How many places have you visited that you wouldn't if it weren't for this site?

3. How much enjoyment has this site brought to you?

4. Is the enjoyment you have experienced worth .08 cents a day ($30.00 yearly) or .10 cents a day ($3.00 monthly) to keep the site going?

 

It is ultimately up to you if you join or not, after all it's set up to enjoy it either way. I choose to pay my part to keep things going because I really do care about this sport/hobby and don't want it to go away anytime soon. I would also love to be able to come to this same site and not have to worry about learning how to navigate around another one and go through its many growing phases. This post is not meant to try to make anyone feel guilty.

 

After all, as mentioned at the start of my post..........EVERY PERSON IS UNIQUE IN THIER OWN WAY!

 

Happy cachin'! :ph34r:

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The truth is,  I love N*vicache, and that is where I will send my money. 

 

the fact that you even posted this topic was a waste of our time and energy. in reality (remember that?) no one cares whether or not you send money here or to nc.com. dude, get a life, go caching and stop posting stupid crap in the forums. and one last thing. your avatar describes you very well.

 

danny

Edited by dboggny
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