Getting Arrested For Placing A Cache

November 25, 2003

Last year I placed a cache (Bullfrog's Hidden Treasure) http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=58374 in the Loxahatchee Wildlife Refuge in Boynton Beach FL. I was notified by e-mail by another cacher that it was against the law and I could be in serious trouble if I left it there. Today, I went to retrieve it and inside the log book was a card stapled and a entry that said 07/11/03 We Were here, you were not. Sorry we missed you, we took your pot. The card is form William Calvert, Law Enforcement Officer with the U.S. Department of the Interior U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Office: 561-732-3684 x 113. Cell: 561-248-9014 Address 10216 Lee Road, Boynton Beach, FL 33437 It seems he came back again recently and logged: Took the goods left the card.

I removed the empty cache box today and I hope that I am not in any trouble. It was a traditional cache hidden underneath a small bridge inside the refuge. I placed it there not knowing that I was breaking the law and I am truly sorry. Should I contact this man or just let it go and hope it is over?

Has this ever happened to anyone before? Could I be arrested for this? Should I retain an attorney?

Kerouac

Edited November 26, 2003 by kerouac

1.7k · November 25, 2003

Dpn't contact them, yet.

Just archive the cache, and wait. I suspect that is all they want, but who knows.

The cards/notes seem a tad unprofessional. I would keep all materials, but stay silent.

The squeeky worm gets eaten first. (Yes, I mixed about 3 metaphores.)

Edited November 25, 2003 by DustyJacket

5.3k · November 25, 2003

You stock your caches with pot?? Wow...

22k · November 25, 2003

Archive the cache and forget about it. Obviously this guy was so concerned he left the container in place. You cleaned up, so no harm done.

Too bad he got your pot.

1.3k · November 25, 2003

It seems to me these USF&W Cops have waaayyy too much time on their hands.

Can't we have them go help with Homeland Security or something?

November 25, 2003

Today, I went to retrieve it and inside the log book was a card stapled and a entry that said...

Who brings a stapler into the woods? Is that like standard issue for a "Law Enforcement Officer with the U.S. Department of the Interior U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Office?"

3.9k · November 25, 2003

Could I be arrested for this? Should I retain an attorney?

I think you're alright. If they wanted you that bad they would have found you by now. Just let it go, don't contact him and I'm sure he won't contact you. You can come out from under the bed now. BTW, you did destroy the cache and all the evidence right!

1.4k · November 25, 2003

As a police officer, I find that to be a very unprofessional thing to do. In fact, it kinda ticks me off. That is very childish behavior for an officer. However, before I started griping and filing complaints, I would ensure that it was, in fact, an officer that left the card and not an eco-nut who happened to have the business card of an officer. It could very well be that someone was just trying to 'scare' you by using the card of a bonafide officer. If I were you, I would just archive the cache and forget about it. Odds are, in a courtroom setting, you would never be convicted of anything. Good luck and let us know what happens.

November 26, 2003

I think you are OK. Just archive the cache. My guess is that they really are not fining anyone or taking them to court, but rather, thought this heavy-handed approach was the way to get geocachers to remove their caches from their property. Funny thing is that the Loxahatchee Wildlife Refuge actually belongs to the South Florida Water Management District, who leases the land to the feds for 99 years. The SFWMD has no rules about geocaches on its lands, which are very extensive. On the other hand, you might have heard that the St. Johns River WMD recently placed a ban on caches on their land. Go figure.

2.7k · November 26, 2003

Today is the second anniversary of Corey's Stash shortly after it was planted the Wildlife Officers Card with an warning showed up in the log book. The card is still in the book, but the Cache is in my front yard, let them tell me to move that one. And today it was visited by 9 cachers all at one time.

November 26, 2003

Hmmm...when I read your post first (kerouac), I thought that something with that long a name HAS to be a hoax. Esp. the word "Interior," it doesn't make much sense at all. So, I went over to Google & searched "US Department of Interior Fish & Wildlife Services." Sure enough, its real. After a few clicks around the website, I found a map of all the offices in Florida. I might be missing something (and please check if I am), put I don't see a "Boyton Beach."

I feel like Encyclopedia Borwn.

November 26, 2003

Is it okay that I'm a little amused that you just published his cell phone number?

Making a note to never leave my business card in a cache.

November 26, 2003

Bill Calvert does appear to be real and goes after hunters as well as geocachers Googled This Article

3.9k · November 26, 2003

I agree with Jeff. As a ex-law enforcement officer...that was unprofessional. The log was dated 4 months ago. If he wanted you, he would already have you...so forget about it.

El Diablo

November 26, 2003

Bill Calvert does appear to be real and goes after hunters as well as geocachers Googled This Article

I did a quick Google on 'Bill Calvert', and I think I've got him!

Bluespreacher

38.2k · November 26, 2003

On the other hand, you might have heard that the St. Johns River WMD recently placed a ban on caches on their land. Go figure.

That's pretty shocking, because St JR WMD was one of the first places to formulate a geocaching policy and it was very geocacher friendly. This is from the state of Fla's website (about the St John's River WMD):

The District owns more than half a million acres that are open for the public to discover. There is something for everyone. Activities on District properties include hiking, biking, wildlife viewing, canoeing, boating, camping, fishing, hunting and horseback riding. The District even allows geocaching.

What is geocaching you ask? Geocaching is a high-tech treasure hunt. Using global positioning system (GPS) units, families can plug in latitude and longitude coordinates and navigate to find a cache-filled chest -- provided by various groups -- using the trails on District properties. The word "geo" stands for the navigational part of the treasure hunt, the word "cache" for the treasure. Hence the moniker, geocaching.

I wonder if it was a specific incident, or a series of incidents that caused this, or was it that that a new bureaucrat came into power, with a different attitude towards our sport. Anybody know?

Edited November 26, 2003 by briansnat

November 26, 2003

While I may not be a cop, I could play one on tv. I do however undestand humor. I think that what the officer did was to try and make the point that you shouldn't place the cache in the location. This could be in response to a complaint, orders, or because he for what ever reason felt it was a violation. The fact that he did it with a humerous twist does not make it "unprofessional". He removed the goodies, but left the container, probably so you could archive it properly. If he were out to "'get you" he would have done so the first time. I think a proper response would to be to mail him as much information on Geocaching as you can find...... in an envelope with no return address of course (And if really parinoid, use gloves so no fingerprints are left). Heck, to show Geocachers have a sense of humor, everyone who reads this thread could send him some info. From his business cards, I think he would appreciate the humor and fair play in that, and who knows, he may even read the material and changes his mind.

Just a thought.

November 26, 2003

My experience with a US Fish and Wildlife Officer was as a State Trooper, when I caught him speeding, and got into a pursuit to catch him. I caught him, jailed him, called his boss, and lo and behold worked a wreck on him two weeks later. He claimed that he was under cover and on his way to an important meeting when I stopped him. He sure was surprised to find out that I found out his wife was expecting him and he was late for dinner!!!

PS that card is usually left at houses where there is a search warrant served and they seize pot and nobody is home....as they always say, there are some that really make you wonder about the gene pool!!

Edited November 26, 2003 by skeeter64

November 26, 2003

The cards/notes seem a tad unprofessional. I would keep all materials, but stay silent.

IMHO, I think the officer was 'testing' the cache owner, to see if in fact the cache was being responsibly maintained, and not just abandoned - out of curiosity about the responsibility level of geocachers in general.

If it sat for 6 months empty, with just his card in it, he would walk away with a story to tell about geocachers 'littering' by abandoning caches.

-B3Fiend

1.4k · November 26, 2003

The fact that he did it with a humerous twist does not make it "unprofessional".

I saw no humor in it, nor did the cache owner. Police officers have made a lot of progress in overcoming old stereotypes. If the officer did not want the cache there and had a legal right to warrant its removal, he should have removed the cache.

Were I in the similar situation as that officer I could have done 1 of 2 different things.

1) Attempt to find the owner of the cache to tell them they were in violation of a law/statute and ask them to remove it as to avoid any further legal action.

2) Simply impound the cache, write a report and allow the administration to follow the SOP on such matters.

Although some may think the officers was being 'cute' by making such remarks in the log book, I see no humor in it and it has caused the cache owner some distress. This, in my eyes, is unprofessional.

November 26, 2003

If it sat for 6 months empty, with just his card in it, he would walk away with a story to tell about geocachers 'littering' by abandoning caches.

If the cache was empty for 6 months, why wasn't it reported to the cache owner by any one who found it empty?

November 26, 2003

I saw no humor in it, nor did the cache owner. Police officers have made a lot of progress in overcoming old stereotypes. If the officer did not want the cache there and had a legal right to warrant its removal, he should have removed the cache.

And that is what makes this country great, two people can have differing views of a topic. What one person finds humor in another doesn't. Each person sees things diffferently. I am just glad that in my opinion the owner shouldnt have any worries about having someone knock on his door, and be charged for having some innocent fun in a sport that I think is a lot fo fun.

November 26, 2003

Based on this:

It seems he came back again recently and logged: Took the goods left the card.

Have him arrested for theft of private property.

You'd have to check the law there, but if you've left contact info on the cache (your email at least), it's your private property. According to the rules and the cache note, trading is permitted. However, taking everything and leaving a card is clearly not. This is not a reasonable interpretation of the cache note (I'm not a lawyer, but that's the way these things are viewed). Also, it was clearly his intent.

I'd say that's a pretty open and shut case of outright theft. (Even if the cache was improperly placed without your knowledge, he can't act illegally pursuant to apprehending you.) Actually, now that I think about it, if he wanted to push it and has tossed the contents--that makes it destruction of evidence!

He can't even claim it was abandoned since you checked on it, or that he was recovering your property for you since he made no attempt to contact you and left the container behind without the property within!

If you have nothing to lose, and don't mind him developing a personal grief with you, have him charged!

Just a thought,

Randy

PS: I'm not an attorney (just play one in these forums), nor involved in the law in any capacity whatsoever. Be sure to research the appropriate statutes/regulations/laws before pursuing anything!

November 27, 2003

what about the pot?

2.7k · November 27, 2003

Wonder what the officer *DID* with the pot? EH?

4.4k · November 27, 2003

"Controlled Burn"

November 27, 2003

Based on this:

It seems he came back again recently and logged: Took the goods left the card.

Have him arrested for theft of private property.

And never cross the street or drive down the highway without being pulled over again...

November 27, 2003

eco-nut

I resemble that remark

November 27, 2003

It seems to me these USF&W Cops have waaayyy too much time on their hands.
Can't we have them go help with Homeland Security or something?

Bad idea. These guys only seem to get worked up over geocaching. Put them in the DHS, and the next thing you know, we get labeled as terrorists!

November 27, 2003

You stock your caches with pot?? Wow...

No wonder they seized it!

November 27, 2003

Curious, IF he was so concerned about the effects of geocaching on lands he is in charge of, would it not have made more sense for him to take the entire container and contact you via the website requesting you archive the cache??

I mean think about. He left the same container that was originally there so didn't really clean much up). He did not contact you or GC.com requesting the listing be removed (thereby no reduction in traffic seeking to find it). So what exactly did he accomplish? Other than getting his cell number published on the internet (but that part I like )

4.5k · November 27, 2003

Last year I placed a cache ...in the Loxahatchee Wildlife Refuge in Boynton Beach FL. I was notified by e-mail by another cacher that it was against the law and I could be in serious trouble if I left it there. Today, I went to retrieve it and inside the log book was a card stapled and a entry that said 07/11/03 We Were here, you were not. Sorry we missed you, we took your pot. The card is form....It seems he came back again recently and logged: Took the goods left the card.

I removed the empty cache box today and I hope that I am not in any trouble. It was a traditional cache hidden underneath a small bridge inside the refuge. I placed it there not knowing that I was breaking the law and I am truly sorry. Should I contact this man or just let it go and hope it is over?

Has this ever happened to anyone before? Could I be arrested for this? Should I retain an attorney?

Kerouac

Kerouac never said he was concerned with arrest because of the "pot" but because he placed the cache in a NWR. In fact, Kerouac never said he was the one who put the pot in the cache. Another person could have traded his pot for a McToy! (well you can't prove differently, can you?). It would be helpful if Kerouac cleared up this point but I wouldn't post the truth publicly if he actually was the one who put the "pot" in the cache.

ALso, could there be an off-chance the by "pot" the officer was reffering to the "treasure" not marijuana?

What's the penalty for simple possession in FL anyway. In NY it's a $35 fine and no police record. The penalty could be greater for placing the cache in a NWR.

ALan

November 27, 2003

Kerouac never said he was concerned with arrest because of the "pot" but because he placed the cache in a NWR. In fact, Kerouac never said he was the one who put the pot in the cache. Another person could have traded his pot for a McToy! (well you can't prove differently, can you?). It would be helpful if Kerouac cleared up this point but I wouldn't post the truth publicly if he actually was the one who put the "pot" in the cache.

ALso, could there be an off-chance the by "pot" the officer was reffering to the "treasure" not marijuana?

The contents of the cache were normal toys and trinkets. The term "pot" was in reference to the toys and used due to his skillful rhyming ability. I hope that this clears up the misconception that there was any marijuana inside the cache. I only place Kid Friendly cache's because I myself have a 5 year old and I would be horrified to find any illegal booty in a cache.

November 27, 2003

And that is what makes this country great, two people can have differing views of a topic. What one person finds humor in another doesn't.

While I totally agree with you in principal, in this case I feel that as an officer he should have realized how his remarks would be received. There is a difference between free speech and inappropriate behavior.

This lends itself very well to the whole "Roll Model" discussion. Those with authority (in any form) over the majority of us have a responsibility to earn it. In a situation like this, the officer absolutely should not use humor. Consider a different, more serious situation. Do officers really need us questioning every directive they give? Do they need us standing there, trying to decide if they are serious or joking in a critical situation? I don't think so. Rather, they need us to react, respect and obey. It sets a bad precedent to use humor in this way, and the officer should be reprimanded (assuming he was trying to be funny).

Edited November 27, 2003 by CacheCreatures

4.5k · November 27, 2003

Kerouac: That's what I thought - thanks for clearing that part up.

I once placed a cache in Brooklyn in Gateway National Recreation Area and learned that was not allowed afterwards. Well, I finally got around to contacting the park manager after about 2 months to ask permission after the fact. He asked me to remove it. So I called another cacher and asked him if he would like the privilege of removing it and posting the last find. (I was just busy at the time and frankly too lazy to go back to the cache). He could even keep the booty for his own cache somewhere else. He agreed. Unfortunately, by the time he got there it was gone.

I still haven't done any jail tme and it's been a year and a half

Alan

Edited November 27, 2003 by Alan2

November 27, 2003

Deny everything and always keep an undersized pair of gloves on hand!!!

Don't sweat the small stuff, man. You'll be fine.

2.3k · November 27, 2003

Surrender now! Resistance if futile!!

1.3k · November 27, 2003

Have him arrested for theft of private property.
...

He can't even claim it was abandoned since you checked on it, or that he was recovering your property for you since he made no attempt to contact you and left the container behind without the property within!

If you have nothing to lose, and don't mind him developing a personal grief with you, have him charged!

You know, every time this thread gets bumped I read this reply and just get more and more annoyed. So please forgive me if I just try and get this out of my system:

1) He took stuff and left a signiture item. That's no worse a trade than I've seen elsewhere. Should we start arresting geocachers who do the same?

2) I'm pretty sure "abandoned" would be a term I'd feel free to apply to a lot of caches I've visited. I'm even more sure that a judge and 12 random people would consider a box left in the woods as fair game to anyone who came along.

3) This sport is going to have enough legal hurdles in the future without creating more. The right answer is to work with those responsible for the land, not against them. The people who maintain the land we want to visit are not the enemy.

My apologies and thank you for letting me vent.

November 27, 2003

I don't know about Florida law, but I believe a cache placed in a public area where the general public has access to it does not qualify for private property.

If that charge was brought to me, I would have a hard time taking that to the DA for formal charges or the judge for a warrant.

That said, many geocachers consider their hard work private property, unfortunatelly, those that do not understand what this sport involves, like this guy, will do what they want.

It all comes down to doing the right thing, even when nobody is looking!

November 27, 2003

I think you are OK. Just archive the cache. My guess is that they really are not fining anyone or taking them to court, but rather, thought this heavy-handed approach was the way to get geocachers to remove their caches from their property. Funny thing is that the Loxahatchee Wildlife Refuge actually belongs to the South Florida Water Management District, who leases the land to the feds for 99 years. The SFWMD has no rules about geocaches on its lands, which are very extensive. On the other hand, you might have heard that the St. Johns River WMD recently placed a ban on caches on their land. Go figure.

PLEASE NOTE --

When I posted this response last week, I made reference to the fact that the St. John's River WMD might have banned geocaching on their lands. I had been told this by a person who contacted me by email. However, in looking back at old email messages, I cannot confirm that this is correct. Sorry about a possibly erroneous posting. HM

November 28, 2003

at this point, I have decided that if I ever place a cache again, I will be sure that it is in an unrestricted area. I myself did not feel that I was in much, if any trouble at all. My wife on the other hand was scared sh?#less that I may be under some kind of surveillance. Thank you for all of the support, sarcasm and honesty.

4.5k · November 28, 2003

I don't know about Florida law, but I believe a cache placed in a public area where the general public has access to it does not qualify for private property.

Why not? Who's property is it? How about the car you parked at the curb? If someone leaves a minnow can in the lake (no identification) or a boat from one weekend to the next or a hunting stand, etc, no reasonable person would consider those things not private property or abandoned or lost. So why a cache?

November 28, 2003

After reading these forums for quite some time. It has become apparent that there are people in this world that don't want other people doing things simply because they have no interest in it themselves. This is true not only for geocaching but most other activities too. People moving from a city environment buying a house within earshot of a race track want the track shut down after it being there for fourty years with no problem.

When someone with this attitude gets into a position of authority they tend to delight in harassing people who engage in activities they deem "silly" or a "waste of time" even though these activities are causing no harm.

Thanks for letting me rant,

J.D.

4.5k · November 28, 2003

Thanks for ranting, Jimmy. Hope you feel better. Welcome to geocaching.

November 28, 2003

Those other items you mention are tangible private property left in legal, mostly semi-private places.

You don't "leave" a boat in a lake. You usually rent a slip or own a piece of land and dock it there.

You don't leave a hunting stand on public property. You "lease" the rights to hunt there and if allowed, you place a stand to stalk Bambi.

The car you park ?legally? at the curb is in a public place that is used for that pupose. If it is parked illegally, it is towed.

A reasonable person would consider those things private but most reasonable people don't know what a geocache is.

The level of a crime when it comes to theft is usually based upon its value. Where I come from, under $250 is a misdemeanor, the same as a speeding ticket. Does that reduce the value of the cache to the peron that placed it? NO. Am I going to get a warrant for that offense, NO.

Are you aware that drug dealers and suppliers use roadside parks to "drop" their stashes off and pick up later? Could be a Geocache by your standard.

I just believe that this all need to be put into perspective.

kerouac, there was probably no danger of you being arrested, as they probably would have asked you a few questions first and once they found out what it was, it would be over with.

Just don't feel comfortable posting on this topic anymore.

Don't want to argue and that seems where it is going!!

1.6k · November 28, 2003

This is why we need stable land use policies that can be quoted as regulation for all NWS lands not some hit and miss mess that we have now.

November 28, 2003

Is it considered breaking the law if you don't know the law exists? Stupid question, let me rephrase that. Is it considered a crime if you do something that is legal in almost every other place but illegal in the place you do it in, yet there are no posted signs, ect... This is indeed a grey area.

November 28, 2003

Last year I placed a cache (Bullfrog's Hidden Treasure) I was notified by e-mail by another cacher that it was against the law and I could be in serious trouble if I left it there. Today, I went to retrieve it and inside the log book was a card stapled and a entry that said 07/11/03 We Were here, you were not. Sorry we missed you, we took your pot. The card is form William Calvert, Law Enforcement Officer with the U.S. Department of the Interior U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Office: 561-732-3684 x 113. Cell: 561-248-9014 Address 10216 Lee Road, Boynton Beach, FL 33437 It seems he came back again recently and logged: Took the goods left the card.

What I find odd about this, is the guy wanted the cache removed. Ok, so why take all the contents and leave the cache? That makes NO sense. This former officer sounds like a complete nutball. WHen a situation arises where a cacher needs permission and doesn't have it, usually the rangers pick up the cache, take it back to the station and contact you to come in and get it, or come in and submit a permission form.

WHat I would have done, is take apart his neatly stapled warning, photocopied it, then taped the business card inside the lid of the cache. Then I would I have kept the cache active. Then when enforcement came around, they'd have thought he owned it.

Edited November 28, 2003 by Ce'Nedra

November 28, 2003

WHat I would have done, is take apart his neatly stapled warning, photocopied it, then taped the business card inside the lid of the cache. Then I would I have kept the cache active. Then when enforcement came around, they'd have thought he owned it.

That is a very ingenious idea.

1.3k · November 28, 2003

Is it considered a crime if you do something that is legal in almost every other place but illegal in the place you do it in, yet there are no posted signs, ect...

Yes. Airports leap to mind. There's tons of things that are going to get you in serious trouble near an airport (such as flying almost anything) but you usually don't see signs every half mile saying how bad things are going for you is you start flying your RC plane.

Getting Arrested For Placing A Cache

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