Ammo Can Problem

November 25, 2003

A local cacher had an unpleasant (my opinion) experience with the local police department concerning their cache. The cache was hidden under a tree in a local park near an elementary school. It was an excellent cache by the way with lots of cool stuff and a couple of travel bugs. Someone saw a geocacher find the ammo box (with geocache stickers on the outside) cache, rummage through it and then replace it under the tree. This person called the police to report suspicious activity. The police responded to the location and luckily the cache owner saw the police arrive and went to speak to them. They did not really like the explaination of what geocaching is and one officer really did not like the ammo box hidden near a school. They even mentioned that they were about to call the bomb squad. I can see both sides to this issue, but it is too bad that the cache had to be removed.

Anyone else heard of this type of problem?

2k · November 25, 2003

I've heard of similar stories in the forum. In these times I think see through plastic containers should be used instead of Ammo cans IMHO.

Even in the woods if someone stumbles across and ammo can the first thought in most non-geocachers minds would probably be some kind of terrorist activity.

1.7k · November 25, 2003

It has happened in the past. Infrequently, but there are at least 2 threads around here that relate similar incidents. The one in England was a red toolbox or fishing box and not an ammo can.

It pays to be stealthy, and to not hide caches where businesses, scools, or residences can see them easily.

unfortunately, tupperwear just doesn't stay waterproof. Especially in cold weather.

And, if you paint them camoflage, it doesn't matter if it once was clear.

Edited November 25, 2003 by DustyJacket

November 25, 2003

While ammo boxes make exceptional cache containers, it is inherently dangerous in today's political climate to place one in the field without removing the markings indicating that the ammo box contains military munitions or ordinance. As a police officer and firefighter, I am seeing that the "suspicious package" calls are coming in frequently, and no one is taking them lightly.

There's a recent example of a geocacher's ammo box being destroyed by the bomb squad and federal charges levied on the GEOCACHING.COM web page at:

www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=21328&log=y

1.7k · November 25, 2003

On the other hand, the two (soon to be three) ammo cans I've placed were done so with the permission of the Parks department.

They have been totally repainted, have geocache stickers on the side and I printed GEOCACHE on the top.

I would hope the Parks department would have notified its own Rangers, so if they call in the Sheriff or the bomb squad it will be their own mistake and on their dime - not mine.

Getting permission to place a cache keeps my rear-end adequately covered.

The cache referenced above was on RailRoad property which is why he got in trouble, not because it was on Federal property. And, as we all know, RR property is verboten for caching - no questions.

Edited November 25, 2003 by DustyJacket

2k · November 25, 2003

unfortunately, tupperwear just doesn't stay waterproof. Especially in cold weather.

I have placed several caches. Three of them dating back to July-August of 2002 that they are still in the original containers and haven't had any water or snow damage.

The containers were actually bought at Target. They are see through plastic containers with screw on and not snap on lids.

1.7k · November 25, 2003

Looks like a trip to Target is in order...........thanks.

1.6k · November 25, 2003

I'm not going to Target just yet. I've got way too many ammo cans left!

CR

November 25, 2003

I picked some cans not too long ago from K-Mart that were funny enough, Martha Stewart cans. They are mostly metal with a clear plastic window on the side. I just bought some camoflauge cloth tape in the Sporting Goods dept (I think this is the kind of tape hunters put onthe barrels on their guns). I covered the can with the tape but left the window uncovered. It works really slick! The lid is just a push on, but fits tight. No complaints yet!!

38.2k · November 25, 2003

Ammo boxes are fine contaniers. They're practically all I use. But have some common sense people. Mark them clearly as geocaches and also with your contact info. And definitely don't place one where it will accidently be discovered, or where people searching for it will arouse suspicions...like near schools. Sheesh! And that goes double for caches in PVC pipes.

"Tupperware" isn't the necessarily the answer either. There is at least one known instance of a Tupperware container being blown up by a bomb squad. Any suspicious container can cause alarm, whether its an ammo box, Tupperware, a tool box, or whatever, so just be real careful where you place your caches.

Edited November 25, 2003 by briansnat

5.3k · November 25, 2003

For a couple of my caches, I cammo painted the tupperware with the label still on. When the paint was dry, peel off the label and you have an "inspection" window. Not a perfect solution, but it might help out.

Edited November 25, 2003 by Stunod

1.7k · November 25, 2003

One problem I have with painting rubbermaid containers is that the paint flecks off the lid everytime I open and close it.

I even sanded them, first.

My ammo cans are taking a licking out there, and still look good and are water tight.

But, I am going to look at other screw-on lid containers - wide-mouth of course.

November 25, 2003

Try Lock&lock containers painted with Krylon fusion plastic paint.

The containers will not leak and the paint wont flake off. Might still get blown up tho..

My 2cents

5.3k · November 25, 2003

I use the Kylon Fusion as a primer...it works pretty good. The cammo paint over it flakes a bit, though.

November 25, 2003

Ammo boxes are fine contaniers. They're practically all I use. But have some common sense people. Mark them clearly as geocaches and also with your contact info. And definitely don't place one where it will accidently be discovered, or where people searching for it will arouse suspicions...like near schools. Sheesh! And that goes double for caches in PVC pipes.

Briansnat, you're entirely correct suggesting that people need to have some common sense when they are using ammo boxes, particularly in public places. Here's two recent examples of bomb squad fodder that I found while looking for caches. They are both marked "GEOCACHING.COM" but finding the legends were more difficult then finding the caches.

If you look closely above and to the right of the word "CARTRIDGES," you can just barely make out the words "Geocache" in black marker:

I picked up this ammo can for less than ten dollars and though it had Chinese military ammunition markings on it, all of the military markings were easily removed with sand paper. The ammo can was then spray painted with hunter green, flat black, and pebble. Adding the GEOCACHING.COM labels to both sides upped the total investment to around twenty dollars, but decreases the chances of my cache being blown up as suspicious.

November 25, 2003

I have a couple ammo cans placed and I always remove the military markings from the can. I use "Goof Off" I find this is the easiest way to remove the lettering without removing the green paint from the can.

1.7k · November 26, 2003

A very light sanding will remove the lettering. But then again, I paint mine all over.

2.3k · November 26, 2003

Sort of off topic, but hopefully helpful. Have any of you tried using Testors hobby spray paint to paint your plastic containers? When I worked in a hardware store years ago and recommended it to people it seemed to work good on all plastics, not just models. It was also one of the few if not the only spray I know of that worked on foam without melting it.

1.4k · November 26, 2003

While ammo boxes make exceptional cache containers, it is inherently dangerous in today's political climate to place one in the field without removing the markings indicating that the ammo box contains military munitions or ordinance. As a police officer and firefighter, I am seeing that the "suspicious package" calls are coming in frequently, and no one is taking them lightly.

There's a recent example of a geocacher's ammo box being destroyed by the bomb squad and federal charges levied on the GEOCACHING.COM web page at:

www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=21328&log=y

The issue with this particular cache was NOT that it was an ammo can, but rather that it was placed on railroad property.

When I use ammo cans, I always paint over all markings, then paint the word GEOCACHE in large letters on the outside of the container.

November 26, 2003

A lot of good stuff in this thread but here's a point that I have made before - I think it is worth a repeat. Imagine you are a muggle - you find an ammo box with the word GEOCACHE on it..... Are you now any wiser about the box?

I am NOT saying 'don't put GEOCACHE on your hides' but rather, don't be fooled into thinking that you have done enough to stop someone wondering about the thing that little Johnny is dragging out from under the bush.

On the other side of the coin... If we all get paranoid about our cache containers then that is a victory for the terrorists in the world. A way of life where we feel safe most of the time can be eaten away slowly or it can be destroyed in an instant. Either way it is gone and once gone it is hard to recover. What I am actually wondering is this - would this thread have existed pre-911?

November 26, 2003

anywhere near a (kiddie) school is a bad place for a geocache. So are national monuments and bridges. Why do we place caches in the middle of the woods? So uninformed people who are unwilling to become informed stay in the dark. You cannot hate something that you do not know existed. Caches in public viewable places are apt to get corrupted and thats just the chance we take, and we should be willing to aknowledge and accept that respoinsibility and it's consequences.

November 26, 2003

I've been in one. This here cache is located a few hundred feet from the ocean, located next to the Sand Diego Marine Base. There is a small fork in the road, not even with a stoplight. Only one car can pass at a time. In the middle of this fork, there is some greenery, in which the cache is located. All it takes to find this cache is a 100 ft. walk, and some supreme smoothness skills to do the trading, log signing, in the middle of the street. The day that my dad & I happened about this cache, it was supremely windy. We had found the cache in a matter of minutes since parking the car. Now we were here, in the middle of the road, and if we opened the cache & traded stuff, not only would we fail to look innocent, but the cache contents would be borne by the wind into the largest body of water in the world. Therefore, I had to run the ammo box across the marine base. Granted, it was only 100 ft., but who wants to run around a place that probably houses some of the toughest men on earth with what looks like a weapon? As you can see from the most recent logs, its not there anymore, to say the least.

38.2k · November 26, 2003

A lot of good stuff in this thread but here's a point that I have made before - I think it is worth a repeat. Imagine you are a muggle - you find an ammo box with the word GEOCACHE on it..... Are you now any wiser about the box?

Muggles shouldn't be finding geocaches, especially in places where they can "cause alarm". Don't put full sized caches (whether ammo box, Tupperware, or PVC pipe) in a subway station, next to a school, major tunnel, or in a popular park, et. al.

Edited November 26, 2003 by briansnat

November 26, 2003

Having run into the police and bomb squad people myself, nothing to do with geocaching!!! They were absolute idiots, didn't even bother to check with me first before going crazy about a few round ammo cans in my yard. I'm sorry, but the authorities are taking some of this terrorism stuff way to far.

November 26, 2003

I found an ammo box in the crotch of a tree one day when I was walking my dogs. Hmm I thought what could this be? I stepped closer to this kinda menacing looking box and seen the words "www.geocaching.com" and also the words "You found it". I proceeded home to look up this interesting looking web site. When I found out what it was all about I went back opened it up and sighned the log book put a couple of things in and put it back in the tree. I didn't think there was any need for alarm but I was not going to touch this box without finding out what it was. The only problem with finding this box is I think I am getting addicted to this sport. So terrible

November 26, 2003

After reading the posts, just want to add my thoughts. Common sense in location, and containers is very important. When an ammo can is placed near a school, an airport, or a heavily visited locatioin, you can expect people to become excited. You can expect the police to be called, and if they are unfamiliar with the sport, you can expect them to not take chances. They are going to follow their protocal to remove an unknown container, and dispose of it in a safe manner. Rather to do this then to have some innocent person hurt by a nut wanting to caue harm. The ideas put forth as to alternate containers are great, but also the idea of clearly marking the container used, and removing any reference to "explosives". I would be more likely to take a relaxed approached to an ammo can that is repainted and has labels clearly identifying what it is. I also think that the news stories on the sport and educating the public of what the sport involves goes a long way to prevent a misunderstanding. One final note, if you are noticed recovering a cache, it might be worth your while to explain what you are doing, thus preventing misconception as to what is taking place.

November 26, 2003

Your ammo can looks almost exactly like 12 cans my kids and I just finished painting! I took all the half-empty (or is that half-full) spray cans sitting in the garage and painted away. The colors we had were black, sandy-ish, dark green, two purple-ish colors--the cans look VERY similar! Cheaperthandirt.com rocks! (Tough one can had a hole in the bottom... Hey--at 6 for $20 it still ain't bad!)

OzGuff

November 26, 2003

On the other side of the coin... If we all get paranoid about our cache containers then that is a victory for the terrorists in the world. A way of life where we feel safe most of the time can be eaten away slowly or it can be destroyed in an instant. Either way it is gone and once gone it is hard to recover. What I am actually wondering is this - would this thread have existed pre-911?

Whether or not the thread would have existed before September 11, I can't say. I CAN tell you that after having worked 12 years in Special Operations for a Nuclear Tactical Response Team, we were obligated to follow protocol for unidentified, suspicious, or potentially harmful objects we discovered. It wasn't a discretionary liberty.

The nuclear response in 1990 would have been just as aggressive as it is in the public sector today. No one is taking chances with suspicious packages, either in the field or the post office (trust me, do NOT send electronic items by snail mail with the batteries in the compartment!)

If I have a suspicious package in the field, I'm going to be analyzing it from a position of cover 300 feet (+) away. If it can be remotely moved from concealment and viewed through binoculars, this public safety geocacher is going to be looking for the "This is an Official Game Piece" text on the well designed GEOCACHING.COM label. If I don't see it, I'm keeping my guys back and kicking the call up the food chain.

Otherwise, you guys might be e-mailing my wife and kids and telling them what a great, but paranoid, guy I was.

November 26, 2003

Imagine you are a muggle - you find an ammo box with the word GEOCACHE on it..... Are you now any wiser about the box?

Muggles shouldn't be finding geocaches, especially in places where they can "cause alarm". Don't put full sized caches (whether ammo box, Tupperware, or PVC pipe) in a subway station, next to a school, major tunnel, or in a popular park, et. al.

That response is a bit naive! We all know that it can happen. While the starting post mentioned a school, to my mind, the thread is about muggles finding caches. Makes little difference WHERE they find them. If they panic and call the authorities there is a problem! I stand by all I said above.

November 26, 2003

On the other side of the coin... If we all get paranoid about our cache containers then that is a victory for the terrorists in the world. A way of life where we feel safe most of the time can be eaten away slowly or it can be destroyed in an instant. Either way it is gone and once gone it is hard to recover. What I am actually wondering is this - would this thread have existed pre-911?

Whether or not the thread would have existed before September 11, I can't say. I CAN tell you that after having worked 12 years in Special Operations for a Nuclear Tactical Response Team, we were obligated to follow protocol for unidentified, suspicious, or potentially harmful objects we discovered. It wasn't a discretionary liberty.

Good stuff Wreck Diver. I don't doubt for a moment what you say and I applaud it. Possibly I didn't express my thought very well. What I was wondering was, in the case of a cache being discovered by a muggle before 911, would it have been opened and or examined by that person more readily as opposed to being reported as quickly as it is today. Would your protocol even have been triggered.....

It's just a thought I had based on the effect that terrorism is having on todays society....

November 26, 2003

What I was wondering was, in the case of a cache being discovered by a muggle before 911, would it have been opened and or examined by that person more readily as opposed to being reported as quickly as it is today. Would your protocol even have been triggered.....
It's just a thought I had based on the effect that terrorism is having on todays society....

There's no telling what the public will do, past or present climate. We were at the post office last year with the State Police Bomb Squad because a package started humming while the carriers were handling it.

At the EXACT same time, an elderly woman walked into the police department lobby a quarter mile away and plopped a hand grenade on the desk officer's window ledge. She found the live pineapple in her deceased husband's belongings and decided instead of calling, she'd hop in the car, get on the highway, walk into the police station and leave it in "Lost & Found" or something.

All I can say is you have to expect the unexpected when it comes to the general public when they are forced to adapt to new and unfamiliar objects or situations.

November 26, 2003

unfortunately, tupperwear just doesn't stay waterproof. Especially in cold weather.
And, if you paint them camoflage, it doesn't matter if it once was clear.

I think the point here is that clear tupperwear will generate less concern than ammo cans, which tend to provoke panic in in-duh-viduals. Besides you can always bag the contents to cut down on the moisture. I have one cache container which is a plastic mason-jar-type container. Keeps things pretty dry.

I know this has been discussed to death before, but the rule of thumb is pretty obvious - Ammo cans are great for caches in less conspicuous areas, plastic wear should be placed in higher traffic areas.

I think it's a bad idea in general to place caches near public or community buildings like schools and libraries, etc. There is a park near me that is right next to a school. It could probably hold a micro, but I won't place one there. It's so close to the school that it would just be a bad idea.

November 26, 2003

this public safety geocacher is going to be looking for the "This is an Official Game Piece" text on the well designed GEOCACHING.COM label. If I don't see it, I'm keeping my guys back and kicking the call up the food chain.

Otherwise, you guys might be e-mailing my wife and kids and telling them what a great, but paranoid, guy I was.

I don't understand...if you DO see the sticker, you WON'T keep your guys back and use the same protocols? So any terroist reading this board now knows how to take out your team?

I agree with everyone who has repeatedly said the best practice is to hide your cache well enough not be found accidently. I don't care what the container is, Claymore casing or lunchbag, once it's called in, I know you guys have to take it seriously, and I don't see why a "this is not a bomb" sticker would make much of a difference to you after that point.

Quote from a cop friend: "If I ever were to snap, first thing I'd do is paint my guns yellow with a dayglow orange tip...."

ApK

November 26, 2003

I don't understand...if you DO see the sticker, you WON'T keep your guys back and use the same protocols? So any terroist reading this board now knows how to take out your team?

I don't care what the container is, Claymore casing or lunchbag, once it's called in, I know you guys have to take it seriously, and I don't see why a "this is not a bomb" sticker would make much of a difference to you after that point.

Caution is still paramount, so regardless of the markings, it would still be treated as a suspicious package.

However, I think if the container is clearly marked, it would be easier to suggest to the EOD incident commander to undertake a less invasive means of identifying the contents of the container, such as remote opening or portable x-ray.

Otherwise, the object would probably be detonated in place.

November 26, 2003

However, I think if the container is clearly marked, it would be easier to suggest to the EOD incident commander to undertake a less invasive means of identifying the contents of the container, such as remote opening or portable x-ray.

Otherwise, the object would probably be detonated in place.

Ah. Got it. Thanks!

It's good to know you can employ a range of options.

38.2k · November 26, 2003

Otherwise, the object would probably be detonated in place.

Actually, with the threat of biological weapons, the authorities are less apt to detonate a container these days, to avoid spreading somethings a little more dangerous than nails.

Marking your container is not a cure all, but it may help in many instances. It's already happened a few times.

Bug& Snake may think I'm being "naive", but I stand by my statement that caches shouldn't be hidden where "muggles" are likely to encounter them.

Edited November 26, 2003 by briansnat

November 26, 2003

Bug& Snake may think I'm being "naive", but I stand by my statement that caches shouldn't be hidden where "muggles" are likely to encounter them.

Naturally they should! In a perfect world, it wouldn't happen... (muggle finds, that is)

(in the same perfect world I would not make silly spelling errors either - still, I am probably being 'nieve' to think that one day I will learn to spell..... )

But it DOES happen. I know this to my cost, having had a cache discovered and destroyed. Oh, not by the bomb squad, just by some chance finder. I really believed it was well hidden too, as did the people who found it in the intended way.

1.1k · November 27, 2003

I think it's a bad idea in general to place caches near public or community buildings like schools and libraries, etc.

Let's not forget the post office.

There is a cache about 30m away AtCF, that's set up as a multi in a Very Small community. It's a 4 step, and every location is along the major thoroughfare, which is also a state highway.

First location - middle of the only grocery-store-in-town parking lot. Ho hum, but o.k., we'll play along.

Second location - the Post Office flowerbed 8 feet away from the doorway into said post office (this place is lit like the grounds of the state pen. 24h a day so you cannot get to this w/o being seen). Nevermind that when you start lifting up the groundcover to find the little teeny tiny cannister with the coords written on it people start wondering what the he** you're up to.

Third location - just down the road a piece in front of the local Methodist church. Clue on a rock in the middle of a parking lot divider... along with, oh, 10's of thousands of other rocks. If you're lucky, someone won't move it from near the wishing well.

Fourth, and final, location - just down the road a piece near the only stop light in town, which happens to be right in front of the school. The coords are hellaciously off for this one, but eventually you find the cammo plastic bucket hanging from a tall ornamental bush at the front corner of the school closest to the stop light. It's a bit off the road, but one does tend to get noticed when one is suspiciously wandering around the school looking in the bushes and checking out the electrical and phone boxes.

There have been a few people who've finished it, but most people move on. I am not sure what the creator was thinking... but it really seems like they could have chosen some better locations with out expending too much effort.

-=-

michelle

November 27, 2003

I think that WWW.GEOCACHING.COM as far more innocuous looking

tha just GEOCACHE.

The idea of something like "Congratulations, you found it" sounds

good, maybe something like "GPS Treasure Hunt" or something of

the sort.

It's probably better to use large colors with low contrast (like

a lighter green or gray) than to use small characters (if you

are concerned about it being too obvious and easy to find).

1/2 and 1 gallon water jugs work great, and are less threatening.

My wife has found four of them for under $2 (most were on sale for

99 cents) in a thrift store. You can paint them gray, or dark green.

Also, if you buy nuts (cashews... but peanut containers are bigger)

at a place like Costco, Sam's Club, or Price Club they come in a

clear plastic container with a screw on lid, and they are about

3 quarts to a gallon in volume. I hate to part with the ones that

I have for in my shop though (clear plastic airtight containers!).

I like putting spray glue, or cheap paint on and rolling them in the dirt.

I got pretty positive comments on this type of cammo job on This cache

You could also glue leaves, or random pieces of cloth to the container

to cammouflage it.

Here's a picture of the one at the cache above:

Edited November 27, 2003 by Mark 42

2.7k · November 27, 2003

New ammo box label:

"THIS IS NOT A *@%%&&** BOMB! YOU IDIOT"

There. That oughta do it!

Edited November 27, 2003 by ChurchCampDave

November 27, 2003

I'm glad I asked this question. I have learned quite a bit about caching. I had no idea that caches have actually been blown up by bomb squads. I have yet to hide my first one but I am leaning toward the clear plastic container. Unless I hide one up in the hills then I will probably us a tin or and ammo can.

Thanks all

Scott

November 27, 2003

I found an ammo box in the crotch of a tree one day when I was walking my dogs. Hmm I thought what could this be?.........The only problem with finding this box is I think I am getting addicted to this sport. So terrible

I love reading things like this. When I first heard about geocaching it was love at first sight... I had my new gps within 48 hours. Part of me would love to have stumbled upon it like you have. What better way to begin a game of exploration and adventure. Enjoy the Terrible!

2.7k · November 27, 2003

I will probably us a tin or and ammo can.
Thanks all

Scott

Use an ammo can... Tins get full of water right away... unless you are going to put it inside a shelter of some kind... like oh, say, a BOMB shelter.

I suppose when all this hullabaloo is over all geocaches will be weatherproof matchboxes and breath strip tins (which are ALWAYS wet)

November 27, 2003

I always use clear tupperware containers or jars, so folks can see what is inside. I thought from the start that this would be the best way to go, and also how I would like a cache to appear before opening it. Too many nuts around -- especially here in south Florida But seriously, I have run into some caches up north that were not well marked and that clearly would have caused concern if found be non geocachers. The classic case was a cache made out of a piece of 4 inch diameter drainage pipe, with screw caps on both ends, painted dark green, and with no external markings. It definately looked like something potentially dangerous.

One question though -- can you folks up north use tupperware? What happens to it when the temperatures get very low and you have ice / snow? Does it still perform OK?

1.7k · November 27, 2003

In Missouri - rubbermaid containers get very brittle in winter.

In summer heat, they just lose their seal.Think: leak, leak, leak, leak, leak

Glass jars are BAD, but I think I'll look into some screw-top containers.

5.9k · November 28, 2003

From my webpage.

November 29, 2003

A very light sanding will remove the lettering. But then again, I paint mine all over.

so will a quick swipe of MEK or MPK

1.7k · November 29, 2003

From my Web Page......

I got the idea from Criminal's web page, of course. but, we dont have those ferns, here.

3.8k · November 29, 2003

I think the issue here is not the container; it is the activity.

An ammo can may arouse curiosity and suspicion more than other containers, but in most cases the container would never be seen if not for a geocacher attracting attention while searching for it.

As mentioned before, stealth is the key to a good hide. But stealth is also important in the search.

Any imaginative muggle could spin a terrorist scare from almost any container, if he watches someone acting unusual or suspicious.

An amo can deep in the woods will probably cause no problems because no one notices activity around it. On the other hand, a micro in a park might cause a stir.

December 1, 2003

TexasAir, I know of the cache you describe. I understand why the cache owner placed it there, but stealth at a location in plain view of a dozen houses right across the street is just not feasible.

I agree with those who suggest common sense and self-policing for preventing misunderstandings with the local law enforcement community, but there is another important strategy to try to minimize situations where police feel threatened by "suspicious boxes" - work with them; exchange contact information; show them how to look up caches on the website to see if the suspicious box they found has in fact been there for 12 months and safely found by 25 geocachers.

I'm hoping to have an event cache to get a caching group started in Amarillo right after the holidays, and one project I hope the group would undertake is education of the law enforcement community.

Ammo Can Problem

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