Garmin Gpsmap 60cs

November 25, 2003

quitter

LMAO.

Only problem now is how I'm going to sneak in the 60cs when it comes out.

If I did that I'd be shopping for my tombstone!

November 25, 2003

Right,

I think that the StreetPilot 2610 is the ultimate replacement for the V.

I disagree. While the 2160 looks to be an amazing machine, the fact that it only works in the car is a major drawback, IMHO. With my V I can take it hiking or caching, but you can't do this with the 2160 as it does not operate on battery power.

How about with one of these? It would a bit bulky (2 lbs.), but the battery is a 4 amp-hr NiMH... not bad for under $100.00.

November 25, 2003

Anyone know if Magellan will be/is offering a competitive product? I can't imagine one of the giants in the industry will be allowed to offer a product like the 60C/CS without an answer.

November 25, 2003

Anyone know if Magellan will be/is offering a competitive product? I can't imagine one of the giants in the industry will be allowed to offer a product like the 60C/CS without an answer.

I thought the 60 was Garmins answer to the sportrack color (or meridian color), seeing how the sportrak has a color screen, a electric compass, thermometer, and auto routing with mapsend direct route.

Wyatt W.

November 25, 2003

Ahh could be. Although I never considered the SporTrack Color to be a real auto routing option, considering the severe deficiencies that have been reported with Magellan's mapping software.

By the way, did we ever find out for sure the 60 will support gpx files?

Edited November 25, 2003 by CacheCreatures

November 25, 2003

Wow! The post listed below at 6:10 P.M on Nov 19 2003 sounds way too commercial to us. However, way too commercial, may be taken less seriously by some than others.

NCFLYER - The Double J's of Fortuna, CA

END OF TRANSMISSION

Posted: Nov 19 2003, 06:10 PM

Got Cache?

Posts: 27

Joined: 13-October 02

The GPSMAP® 60CS and GPSMAP 60C are new all-purpose units—packed with exciting new features and delivering the kind of color that consumers want in their handheld GPS’s. These lightweight, rugged, waterproof units raise the bar to offer a 256-color, highly reflective display that provides easy viewing in almost any lighting condition. This transreflective TFT provides excellent viewing while maximizing your battery life (30 hours, typical use).

Both the GPSMAP 60CS and GPSMAP 60C are packed with extra features, including rapid automatic route calculation, an integrated outdoor calendar, a dedicated geocaching mode, and indoor/outdoor GPS games that turn the outdoors into a giant gameboard.

The GPSMAP 60CS also offers an electronic compass and barometric altimeter for highland adventures. These sensors, when combined with GPS technology, provide enhanced bearing and elevation readings.

Suggested Retail Price:

$535.70 U.S.D.

Expected Availability:

1st Quarter 2004

Check it out here

Larebel

--------------------

November 25, 2003

By the way, did we ever find out for sure the 60 will support gpx files?

I doubt that Garmin supports GPX files, for several reasons: GPX is format that is subject to change with no interaction from Garmin; Garmin would need a computer based program that would load the waypoint data (mapsource does not appear to be it); memory constraints, etc ...

It also appears that the "geocacheing" screen on the 60 will just display the waypoint note. The waypoint note is available on several units from Garmin, and most current units from Magellan (limited to 200-300 waypoints), on these units it will have an abbreviated name of the cache.

Wyatt W.

November 25, 2003

Wow! The post listed below at 6:10 P.M on Nov 19 2003 sounds way too commercial to us. However, way too commercial, may be taken less seriously by some than others.

NCFLYER - The Double J's of Fortuna, CA

END OF TRANSMISSION

Posted: Nov 19 2003, 06:10 PM

Got Cache?

Posts: 27

Joined: 13-October 02

The GPSMAP® 60CS and GPSMAP 60C are new all-purpose units—packed with exciting new features and delivering the kind of color that consumers want in their handheld GPS’s. These lightweight, rugged, waterproof units raise the bar to offer a 256-color, highly reflective display that provides easy viewing in almost any lighting condition. This transreflective TFT provides excellent viewing while maximizing your battery life (30 hours, typical use).

Both the GPSMAP 60CS and GPSMAP 60C are packed with extra features, including rapid automatic route calculation, an integrated outdoor calendar, a dedicated geocaching mode, and indoor/outdoor GPS games that turn the outdoors into a giant gameboard.

The GPSMAP 60CS also offers an electronic compass and barometric altimeter for highland adventures. These sensors, when combined with GPS technology, provide enhanced bearing and elevation readings.

Suggested Retail Price:

$535.70 U.S.D.

Expected Availability:

1st Quarter 2004

Check it out here

Larebel

--------------------

That's because they quoted garmins website instead of putting everything in thier own words my paranoid friends

Edited November 25, 2003 by wickedsprint

November 26, 2003

ncflyers - The message you refer to that started this topic was a cut and paste directly from Garmin's web site. I'm sure you know that if you followed the link at the bottom of that message. Since this is a new product I felt I didn't have anything to add other than give a minimum amount of information and include a link. I certainly don't work for Garmin or any other manufacture. I do own a Garmin III Plus and a Magellan Sportrack Pro.

Back on topic - How well does auto routing work on the V? I assume the 60CS will work the same way. I currently use a III Plus connected to a laptop running DeLorme Street Atlas software to do my routing. DeLorme frequently updates their software. I buy every 2nd or 3rd update and pass on the old software. How often is the mapping information updated for the V? I'm going to wait for others to report on how well the color screen works on the 60CS before buying one.

Larebel

November 26, 2003

Back on topic - How well does auto routing work on the V? I assume the 60CS will work the same way.

I recently received my V and LOVE the auto routing feature! I find it takes some time to calculate a route, depending on the distance and I suppose the maps that are loaded, but on average if I am travelling to an address about 400km away, it can take as long as 2 minutes to calculate the route. I understand the new 60CS will be much faster in it's calculations. I also find it makes several mistakes, taking you down roads when a much better alternative is available, however on the average, I find it an extremly usefull feature!

November 26, 2003

I'd have to second the previous post. The auto routing of the V is outstanding, however once in a while it does make mistakes. It doesn't look like there will be a new version of MapSource City Select to accompany the 60 Series release, so I wonder if it will be susceptible to the same deficiencies. That assumes that the routing algorithm on the unit doesn't change.

Anyone have further insight?

November 26, 2003

The V has been outstanding for teh year and change I have had mine. It will sometimes route you a bit odd but it has never gotten me screwed

Sometimes it will jump off a highway to get on a small side road then get you back on a higfhway a few miles later. Or it will take you via a by-pass on then off a major highway.

When when the full map set is loaded, I trust it. My delorme mapping software did a better job on the highway routing and the Garmin did better around the city and finding local sights.

I cant wait to fondle the 60 and see what and how it works.

-Robert

4.5k · November 26, 2003

(From the Garmin web site) Faster processor, with auto routing, turn-by-turn directions, and audio alerts along city streets or trails when using MapSource® City Select® or 24K Topo software (optional software)

Unfortunately it says nothing about Metroguide software. I think it's just a mistake on Garmin's web site or an oversight....

It will support Mapsource Topo and Metroguide. Here's Garmin's responce to my inquiry:

"Alan,

Thank you for contacting Garmin Cartography. Yes, both of those MapSource

programs are fully compatible with the GPSMAP 60C.

Thank you for your interest in Garmin GPS. If you have any further

questions, please don't hesitate to ask. Please include all previous

correspondence when replying to this message.

Best Regards,

Matt

cartography@garmin.com

GARMIN International

1200 E. 151st Street

Olathe, KS 66062

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Alan ...

> To: cartography@garmin.com

> Subject: GPSMAP 60C

>

> I have a Vista with Metroguide and Topo. Will I be able to use these in

> the 60C?

>

> Tks

>

> Alan"

November 26, 2003

This discussion about auto routing brings up a question. Is the ability to auto route built into the software in the GPS or the maps, or both? Would it be possible (however unlikely) that Garmin might release a software update for say the 176C so that it can auto route?

4.5k · November 26, 2003

This discussion about auto routing brings up a question. Is the ability to auto route built into the software in the GPS or the maps, or both? Would it be possible (however unlikely) that Garmin might release a software update for say the 176C so that it can auto route?

Even if it could be done, why would they? They're trying to differentiate their products and also get you to spend money to upgrade.

Alan

November 27, 2003

I was unaware of the new 2600 series street pilot. This explains why the GPSMAP 60 is handheld only. Marketing. I'm disappointed. However, I expect the price of the previous versions of Street Pilots to fall as are the V's prices likely too. In which case I might just get an older Street Pilot for my cars to overcome the memory challenge of the V. I think this is an opportunity for Magellan to introduce a dual use unit. I think Garmin might have shot themselves in the foot, thinking they can sell us on buying both a GPSMAP 60 AND a Street Pilot 2600. The V has shown that one unit can do all. If Magellan comes out with something like that with the other features of the GPSMAP 60, I think the numbers of Garmin loyalists jumping ship to buy a Magellan would be staggering.

November 27, 2003

The 60 is exactly that product - capable of all the standard handheld functions that you would expect to have in a battery-driven gps, as well as providing autorouting that normally is the domain of in-car navigation systems. You can walk thru the woods geocaching or hiking, use the unit for boating or flying, and even have it navigate you through the deepest recesses of your favorite city - turn by turn. Seems to me that Magellan is a bit late to the game here - Garmin leads again. FYI Magellans Direct Route software uses the same information source as Garmin - Navtech - but falls behind Garmin in their implementation. If you miss your turn using the Magellan you have to manually tell the unit to recalculate the route. The Garmins all automatically recalculate without additional input on your part. It's almost as if they know where they are...

Flame suit on...

Edited November 27, 2003 by Vlad

November 27, 2003

The 60 is exactly that product - capable of all the standard handheld functions that you would expect to have in a battery-driven gps, as well as providing autorouting that normally is the domain of in-car navigation systems. You can walk thru the woods geocaching or hiking, use the unit for boating or flying, and even have it navigate you through the deepest recesses of your favorite city - turn by turn. Seems to me that Magellan is a bit late to the game here - Garmin leads again. FYI Magellans Direct Route software uses the same information source as Garmin - Navtech - but falls behind Garmin in their implementation. If you miss your turn using the Magellan you have to manually tell the unit to recalculate the route. The Garmins all automatically recalculate without additional input on your part. It's almost as it they know where they are...

Flame suit on...

I looked at the specs of the 60c and the screen is a bit small, smaller than the GPS V. (1.2"W compared to 1.5"T) The preview pics make the screen look large in comparrison to the whole unit. I'd like to see some side by side pics. I screen size is dissapointing, screen sizes should be getting larger with new models.

November 27, 2003

good points but screen size is not everything - look at the geko family. for navigating goto's and trackbacks they work brilliantly - the compass screen is more than big enough for that kind of work. the trip computer screen on the 201/301 can show 4 fields of info and frankly they're very easy to read.

secondly when it comes to turn by turn navigation the idea is not to watch yourself on a map screen. it is to be prompted by the gps when it's time to make a turn and in that situation the screen size is more than big enough. the beauty of the gps V is exactly that - the unit is quite small and the screen is not terribly big but yet when it comes to turn by turn it works very well - a turn screen pops up and no longer are you looking at a map on a tiny screen - you are looking at a turn direction screen with big text and a nice animated graphic of which way to go.

so i understand what you're saying but i think it's important to see how garmin goes about implementing the functionality.

November 27, 2003

good points but screen size is not everything - look at the geko family. for navigating goto's and trackbacks they work brilliantly - the compass screen is more than big enough for that kind of work. the trip computer screen on the 201/301 can show 4 fields of info and frankly they're very easy to read.

secondly when it comes to turn by turn navigation the idea is not to watch yourself on a map screen. it is to be prompted by the gps when it's time to make a turn and in that situation the screen size is more than big enough. the beauty of the gps V is exactly that - the unit is quite small and the screen is not terribly big but yet when it comes to turn by turn it works very well - a turn screen pops up and no longer are you looking at a map on a tiny screen - you are looking at a turn direction screen with big text and a nice animated graphic of which way to go.

so i understand what you're saying but i think it's important to see how garmin goes about implementing the functionality.

Laptop screens, cell phones screens etc get bigger and better. As GPS hardware and software progresses, it would be nice if larger screen size could go along with the other improvments. This could be done without making the GPS much bigger. I see wasted space on the GPS V and the 60c.

I just actually just ordered my first mapping GPS (GPS V) after using one. I liked the audible beeps and the large turn indicators. These were great for driving.

November 27, 2003

Lets talk release date. I've noted a few stating anywhere from days to months from now. Garmin's webside says Q1 '04. Anyone have a more definitive estimate? If so, whats your source?

2.3k · November 27, 2003

I'm not sad that I got the iQue, before the introduction of the 60 series.

After all, the iQue is so much more, since it's also a full-fledged PDA.

But if I didn't already have a Vista for outdoor use, then it would have been something else.

1.5k · November 27, 2003

quitter

LMAO.

Only problem now is how I'm going to sneak in the 60cs when it comes out.

If I did that I'd be shopping for my tombstone!

If you need a place to hide it, you can store it at my house. You can come get it anytime you want to go caching (if you can find me home).

1.1k · November 27, 2003

Back on topic - How well does auto routing work on the V?

Larebel

Larry!

Can't believe you forgot that I have a V! You know I love the auto-routing, and I swear by it pretty much wherever I travel, but I may have mentioned to you that for some reason, Garmin routing info is NOT good around metro Mobile where you are. I find that in Mobile I have to use straight-line waypoint targeting and use (gasp!) dead reckoning to get to the target.

Now, having said that, I'm still running V4.X of the MapSource software...I've ordered my V5.X update but have not received it yet. One of the things I'm going to use to test if it's a real improvement will be to cache over there in Mobile and see if the routing has improved.

-Dave R. in Biloxi

Edited November 27, 2003 by drat19

November 27, 2003

I can't wait for the 60! I just sold my V in anticipation of the release. It will be the best "dual-purpose" GPS out there. Everything the V was, plus lots (read plenty) of memory, color (I really don't consider that to be all that important, but it's the wave of the future) and sensors. I live by autorouting when in strange cities! Yes...it has it's quirks. But it sure beats the directions the natives give you, or my own "sense" of direction. If they would have made it with SD flash memory capability, it would have been perfect. But, that being said, 50+ MB of memory will be more than enough for any trip I take. The screen size is no big deal. I don't drive around looking at the screen. I look at the road, and only look at the screen when it alerts me to an upcoming turn. That big black arrow is pretty hard to miss, and it warns you repeatedly before you get to the turn. I sell Garmin, Magellan, Cobra, and Brunton GPSR's. Trust me, this thing will kick butt on the others! Man, I would hate to be a competitor trying to keep up with Garmin! Brunton and Cobra aren't even in the game, and at least in our chain of stores(I'll bet I personally have sold well over a hundred units this year, and there are 6 of us in selling in my store alone), Magellan is behind considerably. I like Magellan units, they're great, but they don't match what Garmin keeps offering. You look at things like auto-routing, FRS radio integration (P2P positioning), and other inovations, they are a tough act to follow.

1.7k · November 27, 2003

If Garmin REALLY wants to pull Magellan owners over, they should offer a generous "bounty" or trade-in on working new Meridians.

I spent too much on my Meridian Color to just sell it off. (And, I don't have a lot of money these days - the wife's been unemployes for a year and a half now.) But I wouldn't mind "going over to the dark side" for a 60cs.

November 28, 2003

How well does auto routing work on the V?

Very well when compared to a Magellan Never Lost that was in a Hertz rental van I was in during a trip to Westerfield Mass. My V actual made a better choice in one instance but I imagine that on average, they both give similar to identical results.

4.5k · November 28, 2003

Do they have beepers and/or speakers to alert you before turns and other advisories?

November 28, 2003

Do they have beepers and/or speakers to alert you before turns and other advisories?

By "They" I assume you mean the new 60 series. I would have to assume they have a beeper...my V does. I'm sure all autorouting units of the future will have some sort of audio alert to get your attention.

November 28, 2003

Much of the discussion of the 60 series seems to involve concern over the non-expandable memory. Certainly traveling with a laptop makes changing maps easy, but I was wondering if it would be possible to load a (relatively) inexpensive USB keychain drive with additional maps and upload to the 60 from that?

Two other thoughts: can maps be loaded to a pocket PC running the Mapsource program and then transfered to the 60? How about staying in the Garmin family, and allowing a transfer of maps stored on an iQue SD disk directly to the 60? Seems like the latter would be an easy enhancement to the iQue - maybe even possible today?

Just pondering the imponderable ...

November 28, 2003

I was looking at the GPS City site and they announce that they will have the GPS 60CS on Jan 23, 2004!

http://www.gpscity.com/gps/brados/2683.2.1...7557/gpsmap60cs

November 28, 2003

Larry!

Can't believe you forgot that I have a V! You know I love the auto-routing, and I swear by it pretty much wherever I travel, but I may have mentioned to you that for some reason, Garmin routing info is NOT good around metro Mobile where you are. I find that in Mobile I have to use straight-line waypoint targeting and use (gasp!) dead reckoning to get to the target.

-Dave R. in Biloxi

Hi Dave,

I remember well trying to keep up with you and your V as we caravanned down the road on one of your marathon caching trips. How many of your 871 finds have been made with the V? My main concern with any GPSr with autorouting is how up to date the map data is. Street Atlas, the software I use most often, is updated frequently. How accurate it or any other mapping software might be is another subject.

I too am dissapointed that you can't add memory to the 60 series. If Garmin had asked me I would have said lose the sensors and add a memory slot.

Larebel

November 29, 2003

Do they have beepers and/or speakers to alert you before turns and other advisories?

If you are asking about Never Lost, it has voice directions and the usual up-coming turn arrows like Garmin uses.

November 29, 2003

Just a quick thought about memory. I'm wondering how fast the upload process will be with the USB connection now? If it loads quickly rather than the typical thirty minutes, I could update maps every few hours or so with the laptop that I usually have along on trips. An expensive and large memory chip, so to speak, but a solution.

5.2k · November 29, 2003

I don't know if the unit will read a GPX file or not but there is some implication that it may be able to since they show a Geocaching screen with Difficulty and Terrain ratings.

Note the caption under that screenshot:

During navigation toward a geocache, a note or hint about the cache is readily accessible (if the cache waypoint contains such information in its comment field).

This is no different than with the V, except the V requires more button pushes to see the comment field. Hopefully the 60C/CS will allow more than 36 characters in there.

GPX Spinner enables you to put whatever info you want into that comment field, then you use Easy/ExpertGPS to upload the data to your GPS. Of course Dan over at TopoGrafix will need to update his programs to support the USB transfer mode.

November 30, 2003

good points but screen size is not everything - look at the geko family. for navigating goto's and trackbacks they work brilliantly - the compass screen is more than big enough for that kind of work. the trip computer screen on the 201/301 can show 4 fields of info and frankly they're very easy to read.

secondly when it comes to turn by turn navigation the idea is not to watch yourself on a map screen. it is to be prompted by the gps when it's time to make a turn and in that situation the screen size is more than big enough. the beauty of the gps V is exactly that - the unit is quite small and the screen is not terribly big but yet when it comes to turn by turn it works very well - a turn screen pops up and no longer are you looking at a map on a tiny screen - you are looking at a turn direction screen with big text and a nice animated graphic of which way to go.

so i understand what you're saying but i think it's important to see how garmin goes about implementing the functionality.

Laptop screens, cell phones screens etc get bigger and better. As GPS hardware and software progresses, it would be nice if larger screen size could go along with the other improvments. This could be done without making the GPS much bigger. I see wasted space on the GPS V and the 60c.

I just actually just ordered my first mapping GPS (GPS V) after using one. I liked the audible beeps and the large turn indicators. These were great for driving.

I don't think a smaller screen is a big deal. Especially with the beautiful color.

Bigger screens draw more power. I'm diggin' the idea of 30 hours of use on one set of batteries. ;D

1.9k · November 30, 2003

The new 60 series looks real cool.

But at a quoted price of nearly £600 :) here in the UK I ain,t gonna rush out and get one

December 1, 2003

Well, I would sure like to know what it doesn't support considering I just ordered one. Please remember to post your findings, Capitalpete.

Ok, I remember now, it was at the bottom of the dealer info on the new 60CS, it stated on the very last line that it was not compatible with Metroguide. Which does not make sense based on the reply from Garmin that someone has posted previously in this tread.

I will post again tommorow, from work when I have the dealer spec sheet in front of me. I cannot remember my login now as I am at home, so it will have to wait until tommorow. I will let you know EXACTLY what it states on the spec sheet.

24.7k · December 1, 2003

The screen size is an issue. A dinky screen on what looks like a larger GPS doesn't appeal to me. They should use all the GPS real estate they have to maximize the screen size. Even the Geckos can support a larger screen without increasing the dimensions of the GPS.

December 1, 2003

Well I'm seriously thinking of putting my GPSV and all accessories up for sale and order the 60.

I wonder what the market will bear for a GPSV with original box, City Select, Metroguide (the routable version), pouch and data/power cables?

Edited December 1, 2003 by jollybgood

December 1, 2003

The screen size is an issue. A dinky screen on what looks like a larger GPS doesn't appeal to me. They should use all the GPS real estate they have to maximize the screen size. Even the Geckos can support a larger screen without increasing the dimensions of the GPS.

I have a feeling a LOT of hardware is crammed into the 60's case given all the features the Gecko lacks. I know the USB components alone take up a fair amount of space as compared to serial.

2.9k · December 1, 2003

I am disapointed in that the Screen size of the 60 series is closer to the Vista's than the GPS V. I can read the screen of the GPS V, but the Vista's is hard for me to see.

2.9k · December 1, 2003

I would have liked an upgrade of the map 76S to color, larger memory, USB, and City Select Auto-Routing too, because the 76 series has a nice large screen. They could put a 3 axis electronic compass in it too. Just imagine a GPSmap76CS with color screen, 128 megabytes, USB, etc. The one thing I don't like about the 76S, is that my fingers are sometimes touching the display, when im holding it, because the GPS is so wide, and the display is at the very bottom.

Usually an LCD display module is not as wide as the circuit board it's mounted on, and I dont think that it would be good if it touched the outside casing of the unit.

Edited December 1, 2003 by GOT GPS?

December 1, 2003

From the official Garmin dealer release bulletin. Last note on the bottom of the page states:

" Note: use with Metroguide is not recommended"

But, there is no explanation as to why. Will keep you updated as I find out more.

December 1, 2003

hmmm - not sure about this but perhaps metroguide is not as competent as a city navigator/city select when it comes to understanding one-way streets etc. perhaps they are reluctant to recommend in case someone is watching the screen instead of watching street signs?

December 1, 2003

From the official Garmin dealer release bulletin. Last note on the bottom of the page states:

" Note: use with Metroguide is not recommended"

But, there is no explanation as to why. Will keep you updated as I find out more.

I wonder if they're referring to the new version of Metroguide which isn't routable.

December 1, 2003

From the official Garmin dealer release bulletin. Last note on the bottom of the page states:

" Note: use with Metroguide is not recommended"

But, there is no explanation as to why. Will keep you updated as I find out more.

I just spoke with GPS Central.ca and they said the 60CS will auto route with the new version of the Canadian Metroguide. Apparently the American Metroguide does not offer auto routing with any GPS.

December 2, 2003

From the official Garmin dealer release bulletin. Last note on the bottom of the page states:

" Note: use with Metroguide is not recommended"

But, there is no explanation as to why. Will keep you updated as I find out more.

I just spoke with GPS Central.ca and they said the 60CS will auto route with the new version of the Canadian Metroguide. Apparently the American Metroguide does not offer auto routing with any GPS.

The most recent version doesn't. But verision 4.01 does. (which is no longer officially available from Garmin). I'm willing to bet the 4.01 version will work with the 60.

I acutally prefer Metroguide 4.01 to City Select. If has more street detail in rural areas.

December 2, 2003

Hey I just thought of something.

I bought the unlock codes for City Select for my GPSV. It's my understanding the codes unlock the maps for up to TWO GPSrs.

If I sell my GPSV and buy a 60 am I screwed?? (I used my CITY SELECT to uploade maps to my dad's GPSV.).

4.5k · December 3, 2003

Do they have beepers and/or speakers to alert you before turns and other advisories?

I wrote Garmin and here is their answer.

Alan,

Yes, the 60C has a beeper that will sound off before each turn, or if you

miss a turn. You can set each reason with a different sound. So one sound

means a turn is coming up, but another sound may mean you have missed your

turn. You can also set this to proximity to a waypoint of your choice, or

if you were boating, you could set it to proximity of a certain spot

sounding to notify you of shallow water.

Best Regards,

Matt

cartography@garmin.com

GARMIN International

1200 E. 151st Street

Olathe, KS 66062

Garmin Gpsmap 60cs

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment