The National Park Service Did The Right Thing By

November 19, 2003

by kicking you out. All state parks and other federal lands should do the same thing. The National Forest Service is ready to manidate the removal of all caches in their areas. The buschwacking and destruction to the environment is getting out of control. Animals eating and choking on the caches. You can make excuses and lie that you are actually cleaning up the area. We both know that is b*******, just take a look at your trash message board here and look at how few people post there.

So far, I have removed about two dozen caches from the Appalachian trail and will continue to remove them as needed.

(removed foul language)

Edited November 19, 2003 by Jeremy

1.4k · November 19, 2003

Hey! Our first troll on the new boards!

(?)

Edited November 19, 2003 by trippy1976

5.3k · November 19, 2003

And it looks like "bull****" is not censored.

(it is now)

Edited November 19, 2003 by Jeremy

1.2k · November 19, 2003

Methinks someone needs to get a life..... it's so sad to see the youth of America so corrupted by leftist propaganda..... sigh.

2.6k · November 19, 2003

Trippy, that's a real nice avatar you got there! How d'ya like mine?

6.5k · November 19, 2003

Hey! Our first troll on the new boards!

looks like everythings back to normal... :sad:

November 19, 2003

Yea! That didn't take long. Let's welcome him with a big GC.com So... How 'bout them Cubs?

Edited November 19, 2003 by WildGooseChase

November 19, 2003

Oh good. I'm glad someone stepped up to the plate, for a minute I thought I was going to have make a troll post just to get the ball rolling again. Thanks.

November 19, 2003

Wow, that didn't take long. He's already a banned user according to his profile.

1.4k · November 19, 2003

Stunod wrote:
And it looks like "bulls***" is not censored.

You're going to get your Warn meter slapped using words like that.

Hmmm.... wonder if Navicache works.

*****

1.5k · November 19, 2003

Allright, our first troll, and our first banned account! Maybe this will be the first locked thread, too?

4.8k · November 19, 2003

So... How 'bout them Cubs?

I had almost gotten over my mourning about the cubs and now you have reminded me!

Oh well, I did enjoy finding a cache outside Wrigley and meeting this guy (even though he had just peed on the sidewalk):

Edited November 19, 2003 by carleenp

9.4k · November 19, 2003

I guess it does!

I'd like to request that everyone's warn meter be posted, not just our own.

Oh, wait...wrong forum

9.4k · November 19, 2003

Who are the 'UBS', Carleen?

5.3k · November 19, 2003

So... How 'bout them Cubs?

I had almost gotten over my mourning about the cubs and now you have reminded me!

Oh well, I did enjoy finding a cache outside Wrigley and meeting this guy (even though he had just peed on the sidewalk):

Flashbacks! Arrgh. Must kill Steve Bartman...

BTW, urine on the sidewalks around Wrigley isn't that unusual.

Edited November 19, 2003 by Stunod

4.8k · November 19, 2003

Flashbacks! Arrgh. Must kill Steve Bartman...

I was at that game. It was pretty insane.

Who are the 'UBS', Carleen?

Edited November 19, 2003 by carleenp

4.8k · November 19, 2003

So... How 'bout them Cubs?

I had almost gotten over my mourning about the cubs and now you have reminded me!

Oh well, I did enjoy finding a cache outside Wrigley and meeting this guy (even though he had just peed on the sidewalk):

ROFL. Watch your step!

5.3k · November 19, 2003

I was at that game. It was pretty insane.

1.5k · November 19, 2003

Oh well, I did enjoy finding a cache outside Wrigley and meeting this guy (even though he had just peed on the sidewalk):

...so some guy peed on the sidewalk and then didn't even bother to make sure his goat didn't step in it?

Edited November 19, 2003 by DavidMac

24.7k · November 19, 2003

Call it a cache and vonbluvens can clean up after that goat and feel good about it to boot.

4.8k · November 19, 2003

Stunod: Ack!!!!!!

3.5k · November 19, 2003

So the word "peeing" is ok then?

9.4k · November 19, 2003

So the word "peeing" is ok then?

It's funny to watch everyone "testing the boundaries." Like kids in a weapons locker.

1.3k · November 19, 2003

might be a troll and might be someone who is legitmately concerned about geocaching, I don't know. However, I am going to reply.

I think caches should list if bushwhacking is involved so we only do bushwhacking when we know we have to.

Rather than just brand them as a troll and ban anyone who opposes geocaching, perhaps a little dialouge with those who oppose our hobby might help smooth down the tensions between geocachers and other groups (cavers, environmentalist, historians). But just to mock and ban people who oppose geocaching isn't going to help further our sport further.

Just my three cents....

Cheers,

Blake

9.4k · November 19, 2003

But just to mock and ban people who oppose geocaching isn't going to help further our sport further.

This was hardly an attempt at dialogue.

November 19, 2003

But just to mock and ban people who oppose geocaching isn't going to help further our sport further.

Just to clarify, reasonable complaints of actual issues ARE addressed as appropriate.

Inappropriate silliness is ignored (or used for entertainment fodder as appropriate)!

{wink},

Randy

4.8k · November 19, 2003

Rather than just brand them as a troll and ban anyone who opposes geocaching

The original post was full of bad language and odd comments like "animals choking on caches." That pretty much marks it as a troll. If someone wanted to seriously discuss possible harmful effects of geocaching without starting off the bat with bad language and an antogonistic attitude that would be different.

4.8k · November 19, 2003

I wonder how to diagnose an animal choking on a cache. Also, would the Hiemlich maneuver work? Has a person ever choked on a cache?

1.3k · November 19, 2003

Perhaps it was a troll, like I said, I don't know. However, my point is, if we label every single person who comes on here as a troll for opposing geocaching, it will not help us. Maybe I am being naive here.

November 19, 2003

I wonder how to diagnose an animal choking on a cache. Also, would the Hiemlich maneuver work? Has a person ever choked on a cache?

Wow that's really big!!

Edited November 19, 2003 by WildGooseChase

November 19, 2003

hey! all you photoshop people, where's a picture of a squirrel chocking on an ammo box?

ps

just did a google search on vonbluvens, anyone who would use this as his screen name must be a sick individual, I'm glad he's banned, and I hope he gets some serious help!

Edited November 19, 2003 by WildcatRegi

November 19, 2003

All right, I am not a troll but if you could give me some answers I'd appreciate it.

1) Is it OK to put a geocache on private land without the owners consent or on public land without the land manager's (i.e. The National Parks Service) consent?

2) If you think it is OK, how can you justify that?

3) If I find a geocache on public land and the land manager has a policy that they should not be placed there do you think it is OK that I just take it home and throw it away. If not, what should I do?

Thanks and and I am also going to thank you in advance for giving my questions a thoughtfull and polite response.

L.E.

November 19, 2003

ps

just did a google search on vonbluvens, anyone who would use this as his screen name must be a sick individual, I'm glad he's banned, and I hope he gets some serious help!

Geez! Now I wish I hadn't look it up. That's disturbed.

1.3k · November 19, 2003

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx

Guidelines on how to place caches

November 19, 2003

3) If I find a geocache on public land and the land manager has a policy that they should not be placed there do you think it is OK that I just take it home and throw it away. If not, what should I do?

L.E.

NO! You should post it in the log or email the owner of the cache.

4.8k · November 19, 2003

All right, I am not a troll but if you could give me some answers I'd appreciate it.

1) Is it OK to put a geocache on private land without the owners consent or on public land without the land manager's (i.e. The National Parks Service) consent?

Definitely not OK on private land. Also not OK on public land where a firm rule banning caches or requiring permission is in place. But other public land is up for debate. Some feel that if it is publicly open for recreation, permission should not be needed in the absence of a firm rule about it. Others seek permission. Here in Nebraska, we have tended to start seeking permission in individual State parks (and gotten it), but other areas we don't.

2) If you think it is OK, how can you justify that?

See above.

3) If I find a geocache on public land and the land manager has a policy that they should not be placed there do you think it is OK that I just take it home and throw it away. If not, what should I do?

I think it could be OK to question it if you know there is a firm policy. For example, email the owner and ask if they got permission. I don't think you should suddenly remove it because perhaps an exception to the policy had been made. Also, even if you did remove it, it would be rude to throw it away. You could at least save it to give back to the owner. In most situations, contacting the owner will be enough. I think most would go remove a cache if they learned they placed it somewhere they should not have. If the owner did not have permission and balked at the idea of removing it, you could always post an archive request note.

November 19, 2003

Thanks Blake. I have read these but they do not really address my concerns since geocaches really are placed in parks etc where they are not permitted.

So (assuming the proponents of this hobby agree that they should not be placed where they are not permitted) do you agree that I can happily pack them out and throw them away. (I would of course, post a message so the the geocache could be archived.)

L.E.

8.4k · November 19, 2003

ps

just did a google search on vonbluvens, anyone who would use this as his screen name must be a sick individual, I'm glad he's banned, and I hope he gets some serious help!

Geez! Now I wish I hadn't look it up. That's disturbed.

Yea me tooo. Maybe Jeremy can tell his Mommy what he has been up to.

9.4k · November 19, 2003

All right, I am not a troll but if you could give me some answers I'd appreciate it.

1) Is it OK to put a geocache on private land without the owners consent or on public land without the land manager's (i.e. The National Parks Service) consent?

2) If you think it is OK, how can you justify that?

3) If I find a geocache on public land and the land manager has a policy that they should not be placed there do you think it is OK that I just take it home and throw it away. If not, what should I do?

Thanks and and I am also going to thank you in advance for giving my questions a thoughtfull and polite response.

L.E.

Since you asked some decent questions without attacking geocaching, I'll answer you.

1. Caches must have permission to be placed on private land. If it is public land and there is a policy about Geocaching, it must be followed. If there is no policy, Geocaches are OK on public land.

2. Public land exists for the public to use it. One way to describe it is that Geocaching is HIKING to a particular location. The average Hiker/Geocacher stays on the trail unless they have a reason to leave it, such as answering the 'call of nature' or maybe photographing something from a better angle than the trail provides. A cache container does not degrade the environment, or the view for others since it is hidden behind or under something. A Geocacher has the same impact off the trail as a photographer or hunter would. If Geocaching is banned in an area, equivalent activities should be also to be fair.

3. You should leave the cache where it is and contact the owner through this website. The owner may have permission from the land manager, possibly so they can evaluate the impact Geocaching has in the area. It is the owner's responsibility to remove the cache, not yours.

November 19, 2003

Sorry, I was typing my posts as other replies came in. I appreciate the reasoned replies.

OK so, unless someone objects with good reason, here is what I am going to do:

1) I will locate geocaches on public land

2) If it is permitted, I leave it but if f the land manager has a policy against them then I will post a message asking the owner to remove it (is 2 weeks enough time)

3) After two weeks (or whatever, I'll be guided by the collective wisdom here) I pack it out and throw it away since the owner obviously has no interest in it.

Makes sense?

L.E.

1.3k · November 19, 2003

Thanks Blake. I have read these but they do not really address my concerns since geocaches really are placed in parks etc where they are not permitted.

So (assuming the proponents of this hobby agree that they should not be placed where they are not permitted) do you agree that I can happily pack them out and throw them away. (I would of course, post a message so the the geocache could be archived.)

L.E.

No, you should not take it on yourself to remove the cache with the lone exception that if the owner/manager of the land would directly ask you to do so. You should log your concern on the cache page and email the owner.

I found one last week that required me to slightly duck under a really old, rusted barbed wire to get to. I made a note of it on the page when I found the cache. Now looking back, I am wondering if I tresspassed (is a old barbed wire a general sign of no tresspassing?)

My log for this cache is at:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?lu...A-7F5CF6A0544B}

November 19, 2003

So (assuming the proponents of this hobby agree that they should not be placed where they are not permitted) do you agree that I can happily pack them out and throw them away. (I would of course, post a message so the the geocache could be archived.)

L.E.

Absolutely not. The caches are not your property, and you are not the land owner or manager. What gives you the right? Contact the cache owner and / or local approver. They may have been placed in a forbidden area inadvertantly - give the cache owner a chance to move it. Also, are you absolutely 100% certain that the cache is in an unpermitted area? Maybe the person who placed the cache got permission. In any case, it is not your business to enforce park rules. If someone places a cache on YOUR land, by all means, do what you will with it.

2.3k · November 19, 2003

Thanks Blake. I have read these but they do not really address my concerns since geocaches really are placed in parks etc where they are not permitted.

So (assuming the proponents of this hobby agree that they should not be placed where they are not permitted) do you agree that I can happily pack them out and throw them away. (I would of course, post a message so the the geocache could be archived.)

L.E.

No, do not just pick them up. It is neither your job nor responsibility to take a cache just because you believe that it is placed improperly. If you feel it should not be there then do two things.

1: report it to Geocaching.com using the "Should be archived" options on the cache page.

2: if you feel so moved, send the owner an e-mail about the problem.

Caches are not abandoned property that you can just pick up and throw away. Please do not do this. Working in the system is always so much better than working outside the system

9.4k · November 19, 2003

Sorry, I was typing my posts as other replies came in. I appreciate the reasoned replies.

OK so, unless someone objects with good reason, here is what I am going to do:

1) I will locate geocaches on public land

2) If it is permitted, I leave it but if f the land manager has a policy against them then I will post a message asking the owner to remove it (is 2 weeks enough time)

3) After two weeks (or whatever, I'll be guided by the collective wisdom here) I pack it out and throw it away since the owner obviously has no interest in it.

Makes sense?

L.E.

I was typing, too. Several others said pretty much the same thing.

Why do you feel you need to be the 'Cache Police' and hunt for caches that are on public land, permission or not?

November 19, 2003

I guess I feel the need because geocaches on public land really irritate me. I think it takes away from the natural beauty of the land. Sure they are hidden but so is garbage in a landfill. It does not mean I want a landfill in the park I hike in. (I know a geocache is not garbage, my point is that just because it is hidden does not mean that it does not have an impact on my enjoyment of the land.)

I guess, I want to remove them rather than let the land managers do it since they are chronically overworked otherwise. I have no particular need to hike a geocache out of the woods somewhere - I just want them removed and I know if I do it, it'll get done. If I leave it to the land managers it may get done at some point - even if the land manager has a strict policy on them, it may still not be a priority.

I thought giving the owner a couple of weeks to retrieve it him/herself would be sufficient to satisfy your concerns. How long should I wait? Why should I rely on some public servant to do the right thing when I am ready, willing and able?

L.E.

P.S. And, if I may say, you guys are way more polite than I expected. Thanks.

November 19, 2003

3) After two weeks (or whatever, I'll be guided by the collective wisdom here) I pack it out and throw it away since the owner obviously has no interest in it.

If you saw an abandoned vehicle on the side of the road, would you feel you had the right to move it if the owner, or authorities had not done so within a two week period?

Why are you looking for caches like this?

Why would you not just contact the land manager if you found such a cache? If they want it to be gone, they will remove it - it's their job. I think it would be polite to contact the cache owner first, and if you get no response in a month or two, contact the land manager. How long you wait to do this is obviously your call, but this is seriously not your job.

9.4k · November 19, 2003

I guess I feel the need because geocaches on public land really irritate me. I think it takes away from the natural beauty of the land. (I know a geocache is not garbage, my point is that just because it is hidden does not mean that it does not have an impact on my enjoyment of the land.)

If it is hidden, how does it impact your enjoyment of the land? You will only know one is there if you are looking for it! Yes, not all caches are hidden well, but very few people ever just find a cache without the waypoint in their GPSr.

November 19, 2003

Yes... we are polite...that is becausen your me, my and I says it all...

Edited November 19, 2003 by woof & lulu

1.3k · November 19, 2003

I'd have to second that. If they are hidden from view, and you have to physically search them out, it would almost seem as if you want to have your enjoyment of the park ruined. What about the enjoyment of the many geocachers that will be ruined if caches are stolen compared to enjoyment of your one self?

November 19, 2003

hey! all you photoshop people, where's a picture of a squirrel chocking on an ammo box?

Well, we were unlucky enough to come across this poor creature coughing up a tupperware container.

The National Park Service Did The Right Thing By

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