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Erosion and you?


Guest *matthew

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Guest *matthew

If you are off trail and stomping around fragile environments such as the Rockies or the deserts, what are you doing to keep from destroying the ground you are walking on? What are you doing to prevent erosion? What are you doing to assure that you don't trample the cryptobiotic soils? What has this web site tought you?

 

Last time I asked this question your friends at Groundspeek - the ones ready to make some loot - kicked me off. I'm guessing it was beacuse they are doing nothing.

 

Matthew Buker

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Guest jeremy

Ah, no. I removed you from the list because of improper ediquitte here in the forums. You speak of issues regarding environmental impact while you post the same item to every section of the board, on or off topic to that section.

 

I am leaving this one here, so folks can respond. From your previous posts, however, I don't think you're open to any useful discussion.

 

Jeremy

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Guest bubba232

If you think a few geocacher's going off trail a couple hundered feet (at most)are "eroding" the land and destroying the "cryptobiotic soils" then you're pretty ignorant. Would you chastise all the hunters? What about all the animals that roam the land? I believe hooves are more destructive than and a boot print. Humans bend and push grasses while animals CUT it! Somehow I think the land will survive.

 

Steve

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Guest chuckw

What do you think you're doing to our environment spewing your verbal litter all over? Please respect our forums like you respect the outdoors. Both can get just as littered and be just as repulsive if not cared for properly.

 

We are more than happy to talk with you as long as you "stay on *our* trails" and stop taking shortcuts. Follow the rules, learn the ettiquite and show some respect to the others and you *WILL* be heard.

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Guest *matt

Yeah, Jermey also banned my computer from logging in. Perfect for a onesided conversation, isn't it. He has skirted the question which I have assured him will not go unanswered.

 

He has done everything to "get rid" of me. Well I won't go that easy. Jeremy here you go. Answer this. What are you doing for to assure that your game does not cause any more unneeded erosion in tender environments? What are you doing right now to educate the people who have no ettiquete in the back country? What have you done in the past?

 

If you are going to run a sport from a computer at home, you have got to take some responsability. And I'm going to hold you and Groundspeak to it. You need to find answers! And you need to do it soon.

 

You see buddy this question is one that I want you to really think about. Really think about it. Sleep on it again tonight and I'll post some more questions tomorrow and the next day and so on until we find some answers.

 

It's just like I've said all along. See past those dollar bills for just a moment and think. I mean golly, you could still retire in a couple of years and get geocaching into the olympics!

 

But think now.

 

That might be asking alot. But think about why I am so concerned and lets make this GEOcasching a good thing.

 

Right now it isn't. You need to take some of the responsability and don't be scared if you see a post or two. I'm just asking others to think as well.

 

Is that so bad?

Now go ahead earse this one too.

Matt Buker

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Guest Krepism

What loot???? Are you really so naive to think that the administrators of this site are going to make money off of this??

 

On the other hand let me tell you what I have learned from all this:

Before I started this game, I never really cared for or found a use for the undeveloped land in Utah. I have seen legislation to protect this land and never signed in favor it. I have had people ask me to sign petitions in support of protecting land in other states and again I never signed them. Since I started the sport, I have seen many areas of Utah that I never knew were there and I have began to care more for the land, started picking up trash, fixing trail heads, and even turned one guy in for shooting up a trail sign, by turning in his license plate number to the police. This sport has helped more than it could ever hurt.

This is allot more than I can say about you, all you did last weekend (if it even happened) was watch people do "bad" things. So you talked to them, did you fix or try to repair the ground? Did you tell them to? Did you tell the park ranger what these people were doing? Did you get the peoples names so you could report them to the geocaching website? Did you get the license plate number of the car they were driving so you could give it to the police? Did you even do anything at all, but watch this "horrible Murder" take place? Or did you just merely sit back and watch this all take place from your very "High Horse"? You are a disgrace to even your own beliefs. Why don?t you try and help in stead of doing harm? Do you really think what you are doing helps? I can say that what you are doing does not help. I have never had a problem with extremists in the environmental movement, but now I can say that I do. You sir have now done more harm to your movement than good. The harder you pressure me, the more pressure I will put on you and your groups. Remember people who think like you are a minority, people who think like I do are a majority. The majority always wins (except in presidential elections)

I would ask that everyone on this board stop responding to you and your childish behavior.

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Guest jeremy

If you are reading this (and you probably are, since I had to ban your entire company's posts so you would stop spamming the group), then consider that nothing useful will come about from continually sending messages all over the place. You're basically just showing your ignorance about how to go about voicing your concerns.

 

If you took some time to read the forums, there is a lot of concern over the environment, and most of us tread lightly in our nation's forests. There are a small few who have no concern over safe hiking, or reducing impact, but as a whole we are very careful and have a good code of ethics.

 

Now, I'm going to leave your company down from posting for today, and open it up tomorrow. If you decide to play nice there's no reason for banning you from the list. Maybe that will give some other folks time to respond to your accusations.

 

Jeremy

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Guest WrongWay

Matt,

 

You seem to have an objective although from your posts it isn't clear. You claim an environmental cause but you attack others for possibly making a profit.

 

Like Krepism asked - What have you done here to prevent the "environmental impact" you wrote about ?

 

Your sum total contribution has been to attack the participants in this activity.

 

If you truly care about the environment and the specific areas you mentioned then educate us.

 

Take a pro-active stand not re-active.

 

How about this:

 

"What you can do to help save the cryptobiotic soil crusts? Protecting these fragile crusts is simple. Only drive or bike on designated roads or trails, never make your own trails. Don't drive over roadside vegetation or park on vegetation. Hike only on designated trails, don't cut across switchbacks or make other shortcuts. Be content with the views from the trails, going out of your way to get that extra special view or picture is not only dangerous to you, but also to the life beneath your feet!"

 

Sure seems like common sense to me.

 

It's been my experience that the majority of people whether day hikers or hard core outdoor enthusiasts care a great deal about the environment and they would not wantonly destroy it.

 

If you're just here for a flame war then leave, you obviously don't care like you pretend to.

 

Or maybe you're just miffed that someone might profit from an activity that they helped create.

 

I look forward to seeing those positive posts.

 

Regards,

 

Jim

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Guest BigFig

her nature with evil homo sapien juices, but I'm going to continue to whiz on the little plants - just as we have have done for millions of years. I'm also going to step on them now and then and kill and eat the little plants and animals as need arises - just like we have done for millions of years.

 

Get over it.

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Guest Moss Trooper

Well.. Just to stick my two pennyworth in.. Wonder what has changed since I was letterboxing here in the UK 30 years ago..

 

Grounds the same.. sheep have got older though..

 

Matthew wants to come over to UK and see all the trails made in the Cheviots by the sheep.. don't see anyone lecturing them on Cryptobiosis.

 

Most folks I know look after the enviroment. We have the country code over here.. And most will stick by it.. think Matthew ought to be hounding those who don't care for the country side and enviroment rather than thosw who would be at one with mother earth and father sky.

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Guest fiser

It sounds like, in varying degrees, that we agree on the following:

 

Terms I put in quotes are words whose definitions we could dispute.

 

1. Geocaching has some "impact" on the environment.

 

2. We have varying views on how much "impact" is acceptable.

 

3. Geocaching may have some benefits that may compensate for "impact" caused.

 

4. The environment, especially "sensitive" environments, should be "respected".

 

5. "Common sense" dictates how to hide/visit caches.

 

6. Geocachers, as both a group and as individuals, need to be "accountable" for geocaching and its effects on the environment.

 

7. Most of our opinions on this subject are based on our assumptions about what an "average geocacher" might do. Mr. Buker assumes certain geocaching behaviors, many of us assume other behaviors.

 

I think we can all agree there's something worth discussing here. While Mr. Buker could use some work on his presentation, diplomacy, and tact, I think his questions merit discussion.

 

[This message has been edited by fiser (edited 03-06-2001).]

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Guest fiser

I think most of these environmental questions, as they relate to geocaching, lead me to think that we can't control individual behavior. All we can do is tell people not to hide caches in "sensitive areas", and "respect the land", etc.

 

I think it would be good to post a short list (my manifesto suggestion again), and then have hotlinks to more info on what each one means, and then display it prominently on the webpage. I'll admit right now though that I'm uncomfortable telling Jeremy how to run things.

 

Will such an idea immediately solve the problem? No. However, I think it would do a lot to demonstrate a commitment to environmental responsibility.

 

**Imagine if the first thing an angry environmentalist read about Geocaching was its commitment to the environment.

 

[This message has been edited by fiser (edited 03-06-2001).]

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Guest fiser

One last thing and I'll shut up.

 

I think we need to ask different questions.

 

Instead of asking, "What are we doing to stop X", we need to ask:

 

1) Is X actually happening?

2) do we want to stop it?

3) why would we want to?

4) what can we do to stop it?

5) how could we change so X wouldn't happen to begin with?

 

etc.

 

So to start, the cryptobiotic soil question (visit http://geochange.er.usgs.gov/sw/impacts/biology/crypto/ for some background).

 

I can't get past the first one, is anyone actually planting caches in cryptobiotic soil?

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Guest jeremy

I have removed the IP ban on the list. Matthew can now freely post. I am happy to discuss in a civilized matter. A permanent ban will be imposed if multiposts occur on the list.

 

As an aside, I would be happy to post a "manifesto" of sorts for the geocaching web site. I have wanted to do such a thing for a while, but have been too busy maintaining the site to write one of my own. Any good writers willing to take up this task?

 

Jeremy

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Guest Mike_Teague

gh to go after either, wherever possible..

 

I find it odd that so-called environmentalists are the first on the side of ANY leftist cause.. Be it organized labor, "housing", "education", welfare, food stamps, etc... They're the ones who want to turn national parks off-limits, turn national forests into national parks, stop people from building houses on property they own, etc. etc.

 

Who ever knew that a hobby would turn into an assault from the left? heh! I did!

 

I'm saying, these "environmental" concerns that people are bringing up are not "environmental" concerns at all.. They are "anti-capitalist" concerns.. They want to stop capitalism and individual freedom at any turn..

 

Ok, that's my semi-coherent political rant for the nite... icon_smile.gif

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Guest Mike_Teague

gh to go after either, wherever possible..

 

I find it odd that so-called environmentalists are the first on the side of ANY leftist cause.. Be it organized labor, "housing", "education", welfare, food stamps, etc... They're the ones who want to turn national parks off-limits, turn national forests into national parks, stop people from building houses on property they own, etc. etc.

 

Who ever knew that a hobby would turn into an assault from the left? heh! I did!

 

I'm saying, these "environmental" concerns that people are bringing up are not "environmental" concerns at all.. They are "anti-capitalist" concerns.. They want to stop capitalism and individual freedom at any turn..

 

Ok, that's my semi-coherent political rant for the nite... icon_smile.gif

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Guest Mike_Teague

I might add, in a general sense... Maybe give someone a hint to go searching for some perspective..

 

Species have always gone extinct, they will continue to go extinct. New species emerge also.. Homo sapiens as we know has only existed for 10 or 20000 years. Quite a plan we have for the globe now... "let's pretend we never existed, and see what happens".. Weeeeeee! Species can,have and will push others out of existance.. Nature is competition, competition for energy...

 

The purpose of life here on this planet is to propagate your own species, whether you are a fruit fly or human being...

 

Everything is trying to do it, in their own way..

 

Environmentalists are very ego-centric... They believe that the only species worthy of survival is homo sapiens... By "preserving" various species "artificially", what are you doing to the ecosystem of the WHOLE earth?

 

Remember all our pavement(oil too), concrete , steel,

wood, etc. etc. ALL COMES FROM THE EARTH

Look at it mathmematically, the mass we dig from the earth, simply _re-arrange_ on the surface, ON A PLANET THAT'S 2/3 UNDEVELOPABLE (the oceans, to idiots) to begin with cannot POSSIBLY cause any kind of environmental problem... PERIOD! It might cause "un-sightly" problems in densely-populated areas, but not in the big-picture..

 

Any concern is ego-centric to the environmentalist, homo-sapiens-is-king theory.. We are but the latest top-of-the-food-chain organism on this planet, and I plan to take full advantage of it during my life cycle..

 

As to the global atmosphere:

Calculate the mass of the atmosphere, the mass of current gases, and calculate the amount that homo sapiens is directly adding to the atmosphere.. Also, calculate and subtract the gases used (consumed) by _All plant life on the planet, etc. etc._

 

I think you will find that we are but a flea on the back of the earth.. Doesn't really matter what we do. The earth will deal with us fine.. If you dont like dirty land, water, and air, call it "peopleism", not "environmentalism", because the environment, the earth, will do fine.

 

You're ostensibly concerned with the earth's health, when you're evidently concerned with your own, when you're actually concerned with a political system.. Anyone who disputes that is plain ignorant..

 

Ok that is rant #2 done.. I'm done for the nite!

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Guest WrongWay

Mike, Ha ! Finally I meet someone who has the same view of global warming as I do. A previous governor of your state name of Dixie Lee Ray was an outspoken biologist. She debunked several media hyped rumors including global warming and the Alar scare that affected Washington state. Maybe she should be nominated as the patron saint of GeoCaching. She wasn't perfect but she wasn't afraid to admit when she was wrong.

 

In addition to the link fiser posted check out the Bryce Canyon site, they have a good description of this fragile environment and how to protect it.

 

http://www.nps.gov/brca/nacrypto.htm

 

Jim

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Guest fiser

I think we're going around in circles.

 

We've established that some people think geocaching harms the environment, while others think if it actually does, it's an insignificant amount of damage compared to (insert global problem here). The "environmental concerns" thread just filled up with the same kind of posts, as Mr. Ninja pointed out.

 

Sweeping generalizations about economic systems and the intelligence of their proponents went out of style with McCarthy.

 

Mr. Buker may or may not be a card-carrying communist greenie Nth degree freemason, but it doesn't change the fact that he saw and spoke with a group of bumbling geocachers trashing an area near a cache site. We need to focus on what would prevent the situation from repeating itself.

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Guest WrongWay

could be pulled from the regional pages and be specific to those areas. They could be PDFs with the first five pages covering trail maintenance, erosion, animal sensitivity, raptor breeding schedules, what to do when you eventually run into a bear or mountain lion, treading lightly, take out what you bring in, you know what I mean. The one thing I see is that it is impossible to keep people on trails so you had better make sure that everyone at least has some guidelines available to them all the time. Not just when discussion comes up.

>

>I'm willing to work with you all here.

>

>*matt Buker

>

>

>--

>Matthew Buker

>Integer Denver

>10455 West 6th Avenue

>Lakewood, CO 80215

>P: 303.205.4487

>F: 303.205.3301

>e: mbuker@integerdenver.com

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Guest AZMark

Do they bug the offroaders groups like this. I've hiked the deserts here in AZ picking up trash along the trail,,,then been about been run over by Mt. Bikers and ATV'ers blazing new trails so fast they can't even get a good look at a newly forming cactus.

 

Might as well take a look at the root problem, everyone go out and get sterilized. Too many people on this little blue marble.

 

M

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Mike_Teague makes some very excellent points in his posts:cool. I also really like the essay that Captain Leno wrote in the thread that cache_ninja pointed to icon_biggrin.gif. We(human-kind) have scared this planet in our rise to the dominate species on the planet and have not always used the resources available in the most responsible ways. But we are learning and we are getting better, but we still have a long way to go. But! your a freaking lunatic! tongue.gif if you think that in a millennium or two some historians will say "If it hadn't been for those !@#@! geocachers the planet might have survive and we wouldn't have to abandoned the now lifeless rock!"

 

Right! The environmentalist are so wrapped up in there little causes they never step back and look at the big picture. They never really try to make a difference they just attack group and activities they think they can bully around. If the environmentalist wackos really want to do this planet a favor :mad leave the geocachers alone we are doing more to help then hurt the environment and go chain yourself to some nuclear power plant or some other major environmental polluter.

 

Human-kind has as much right to be on this plant as any other creature or plant that scrapes an existence out of this unique little rock. When human-kind?s time on this planet is done mother nature will cleanse what mistakes we have made. If you believe modern science then we have only been around for a small fraction of the time that life has been on this dirt ball and the planet survived all the life that was here before us what make you think we can do any worse.

 

mcb

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Mike_Teague makes some very excellent points in his posts:cool. I also really like the essay that Captain Leno wrote in the thread that cache_ninja pointed to icon_biggrin.gif. We(human-kind) have scared this planet in our rise to the dominate species on the planet and have not always used the resources available in the most responsible ways. But we are learning and we are getting better, but we still have a long way to go. But! your a freaking lunatic! tongue.gif if you think that in a millennium or two some historians will say "If it hadn't been for those !@#@! geocachers the planet might have survive and we wouldn't have to abandoned the now lifeless rock!"

 

Right! The environmentalist are so wrapped up in there little causes they never step back and look at the big picture. They never really try to make a difference they just attack group and activities they think they can bully around. If the environmentalist wackos really want to do this planet a favor :mad leave the geocachers alone we are doing more to help then hurt the environment and go chain yourself to some nuclear power plant or some other major environmental polluter.

 

Human-kind has as much right to be on this plant as any other creature or plant that scrapes an existence out of this unique little rock. When human-kind?s time on this planet is done mother nature will cleanse what mistakes we have made. If you believe modern science then we have only been around for a small fraction of the time that life has been on this dirt ball and the planet survived all the life that was here before us what make you think we can do any worse.

 

mcb

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Guest ScottJ

quote:
If you are off trail and stomping around fragile environments such as the Rockies or the deserts, what are you doing to keep from destroying the ground you are walking on?

 

The same thing the deer, the bears, the wild pigs, the mountain lions, and the other wildlife are doing.

 

I'm really, really tired of people who think they own the planet, telling everyone where they can walk and what they can touch, on a planet whose ecology will be thriving centuries after the aforementioned arrogant twits have gone extinct.

 

Anytime you'd like to reduce your environmental impact, Matt, we can do without your CO2.

 

Scott

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Guest fiser

One last try.

 

Yes, ORVs damage the wilderness, global warming may be a lie, and humans are animals too. An upset citizen can't do much about any of these things, and most of the posts in this thread are pretty clear about how little credit we give dissenting opinions.

 

Regardless of how little we care about upsetting people, one upset person with a GPS could get rid of every cache around St. Louis, Chicago, or Cleveland in one weekend.

 

We can berate dissenting opinions all we want, but how will it help?

 

[This message has been edited by fiser (edited 03-07-2001).]

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Guest *matthew

others, especially newcomers, as how best to keep that land for generations to come.

 

You should know that I am an expecting dad and I can not imagine my baby growing up in a world without seeing, smelling, feeling and hearing nature as I did growing up. After all, it's been 28 years for me and I have seen more wilds taken from this country then I ever thought I would at age ten.

 

So you say Geocaching will not effect the ground beneath your feet. Maybe that's fine in your area, but where I live it is different. Where I live we already have so many people going out on the trails that's it's like WallyWorld when you set out to do a day hike 2 hours from of the city line. In the Rockies we have a problem with overrun backcountry and as a result erosion and litter to our trails and our environment, which is just taking more wilderness from my kids.

 

I am not going to try to convince you all that what you are doing can and will be damaging in some areas. You should know that your sport has the potential to grow faster then expected. If you don't, then I am telling you that it does. Your feet alone will do almost nothing, but get a group of 20 every weekend and you will hurt the plants and animals in a place that once was left alone. A place where birds could fly and deer could relax. Where trees could grow and plants flourish. I've said it before and others have said it to me. You could run bulldozers through the forests in the east and you would never know they were there, but you can not in other places. Places like the deserts and the mountains of the west do not repair so easily. They erode. They do it naturally and they do it under foot. These tender places do not mend as they do other places.

 

What I am asking is that you recognize this and work to find a better way for everyone, plants and animals alike, in all places. Geocaching has the potential to be a wonderful sport, but only if it takes some responsibility for a land it uses as a playing field. A land that won't be around forever.

 

Thanks for listening to me and letting me be heard. I have committed to help where I can. I have contacted my local Parks and Rec and will work with them to help find a better way. I am not here to try and take anything away. I just want to make sure things are done right. If you think I am bad, you are wrong. I am helping and I hope you see that.

 

I have attached a letter from the Boulder Mountain Parks and hope you find it informative. As well, I have attached some suggestions. Please feel free to contact me if you would like to discuss further.

 

Matthew Buker

Hiker

mbuker@integerdenver.com

 

Matthew - thanks for your comment about geocaching. I hadn't heard of this sport but I do hear your point of view. I'm going to circulate your e-mail to our Ranger staff and some of our policy makers and planners to start and Open Space Mt Parks discussion about the issue. I always think someone is inventing at this moment in a garage the next outdoor craze that will be the bane of our existence. :-)

 

If all the annual visitors to Op Sp & Mt Parks made a human chain Ø al 3.5 million of them Ø it would stretch from Boulder to Hawaii. That many people can do horrific damage, even if they mean well.

 

Dave Sutherland

Education & Outreach Specialist

City of Boulder Open Space & Mountain Parks

P.O. Box 791

Boulder, Colorado 80306

Phone: 720-564-2057

Fax: 303-499-6181

sutherlandD@ci.boulder.co.us

 

Here is what I have sent some of you. I hope you take another look. *matt

My suggestions...

Before the site comes up flash a notice about erosion and foot traffic - I'm sure a magazine like backpacker would be more then willing to help out here and anywhere you need it. I will even work with them if you need someone to help out.

 

Encourage wildlife education and preservation - use local agencies to help with specifics and regional concerns.

 

Post warnings to specific regions about raptor populations and breeding times - this info can be found in most park and rec sites.

 

Post erosion concerns specific to the regions at hand - I think I've said this enough.

 

Make a discussion forum for environmental issues - get someone pro environment to run just this one discussion group, someone for Geocaching and for the environment who can see the best use of time and trail.

 

Post "safe" areas and encourage the use of these areas - this would help people who don't know what they are doing refine their skill before stomping down sensitive areas. These places would be great for the types of geochaschers I saw in Boulder. They could learn their GPS where geocasching is encouraged and then take what they have learned to more difficult areas.

 

Find new ways of hiding casches - this is not as big of a deal to me. It seems like you are already doing this well.

 

Get regional leaders that can be the pulse of that region - this is huge. Every place is different. Some places need more foot traffic, but some need less. These people could help out finding which is which. A person in NYC can't moderate what is going on in the Front Range, right?

 

Be sensitive and hear out environmentalists - they're a touchy group.

 

Encourage clean up of back country - I know you do this, just keep it up, it makes everyone feel better about everything.

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Guest Krepism

Matt,

See... good things can happen when you play nice. I think you have some really good ideas about some improvments that can be made. Although I am curious to know what you said to those park rangers? You post thier reply but not what you sent to them.

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Guest notskeered

I've found that most geocaching enthusiast are responcible invironmentalist. In fact, most of the time when hiking or looking for a cache, some carry along a garbage bag to bring out trash found while hunting the cache(beer cans, plastic cola bottles, etc.). Items left by others who are not geocaching. So while, there maybe some who are not considerate of the environment, most are. The same as hikers, boyscouts, climbers and various other groups, who also have a few uneducated(on environmental issues) people in thier groups

 

Bill Higdon

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Guest Gweebaroo

I like how he is blaming this board on the entire sport. There's a group of us that have been doing this amongst ourselves for a few years now. Matt, you may as well see if you can "educate" the hikers, bikers, cross country skiers, 4X4 enthusiasts, etc. I'd bet that 95% of people participating in this and other outdoor sports are true outdoorsman, taking notice and not deliberately destroying nature.

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Guest *matthew

the backcounrty ettiquite that you guys have. The hand held GPS unit is a gadget that is growing in sales by leaps and bounds and Geocaching is a sport that many many people will find after buying a GPS unit.

 

If you have been doing it for some time, I am just proposing that you consider yourselves oldtimers at a new sport and be ready to help educate newcomers to the ways of the woods.

 

I am not suggesting that you all here are reckless and don't give a hoot about the environment. I'm not even suggesting that you have to. You don't. I am just challenging you to help model an environmentaly friendly sport. A sport which does have the potential to get out of hand very easily in places that can not take a lot of foot traffic from newcomers who do not understand how things work.

 

Now, I've stuck out a hand here to help Geocachers help newcomers. If you want it then lets take a stab at some of the ideas I have thrown out there. Add some yourself and lets see what we can do.

 

If not, I'll never post here again and I know most of you would like that, but what will that do?

 

I'm done here. Please contact me if you would like to discuss anything further.

*matt

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Guest Bill Ruhsam

Matt Buker has excellent points, even if the message may not particularly apply to everyone. But that's just the point. It does apply to everyone! Little things add up to big things, and if you want to hand something nice to your children, you should go back and read his posts, and think about them.

 

Encourage your friends in outdoors etiquette. Help your neighbors, or the people you meet on the trail for the first time. It can be done politely without offending anyone.

 

As someone who knows all five of the spots in the White Mountains of NH where you can go and not find a tourist, Matt is bringing up some very valid points. Despite any dislike for the posting behavior displayed, we should give his message its due attention.

 

'Nuff said.

 

Bill

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Guest bubba232

quote:
Originally posted by *matthew:

My concern is not only you all - it's everyone. It's the backpacker, the 4x4s, the hikers, the bikers and even me. Every little bit of concern helps when it comes to wilderness.

 

Look, you have a new sport that is attracting new people who may not have the backcounrty ettiquite that you guys have. The hand held GPS unit is a gadget that is growing in sales by leaps and bounds and Geocaching is a sport that many many people will find after buying a GPS unit.

 

If you have been doing it for some time, I am just proposing that you consider yourselves oldtimers at a new sport and be ready to help educate newcomers to the ways of the woods.

 

I am not suggesting that you all here are reckless and don't give a hoot about the environment. I'm not even suggesting that you have to. You don't. I am just challenging you to help model an environmentaly friendly sport. A sport which does have the potential to get out of hand very easily in places that can not take a lot of foot traffic from newcomers who do not understand how things work.

 

Now, I've stuck out a hand here to help Geocachers help newcomers. If you want it then lets take a stab at some of the ideas I have thrown out there. Add some yourself and lets see what we can do.

 

If not, I'll never post here again and I know most of you would like that, but what will that do?

 

I'm done here. Please contact me if you would like to discuss anything further.

*matt


 

Finally!!! You could have saved us ALL a lot of headache if you would have started this topic with the above post! Now, I think we're on some even ground.

 

THANK YOU!

 

-Steve

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Guest cascade

I'm not a tree-hugger, but I do prefer outdoors to indoors, and I always leave a campsite cleaner than I found it. That being said, I have a quote from the late Robert Heinlein (I was going to ask for permission to print this, but he's dead): "There are hidden contradictions in the minds of people who "love Nature" while deploring the "artificialities" with which "Man has spoiled 'Nature.'" The obvious contradiction lies in their choice of words, which imply that Man and his artifacts are *not* part of "Nature"--but beavers and their dams *are*. But the contradictions go deeper than this prima-facie absurdity. In declaring his love for a beaver dam (erected by beavers for beavers' purposes) and his hatred for dams erected by men (for the purposes of men) the "Naturist" reveals his hatred for his own race--i.e., his own self-hatred."

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Guest Cape Cod Cache

Environmentalists are ENTIRELY $ driven, they got of college and realized they have no marketable skills, so they beg money from people who do. There is a save the planet group in my town. I couldn't afford to equip the dream offices they have. There are too many BMWs in the parking area too. I can't afford the tax-exempt boats of Greenpeace either, or buy imported beer the crew drinks.

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Guest lynnwoods

I work in a 2,200 acre park 14 miles from Boston. We had a huge snowstorm the last couple of days and I was lucky enough to do a little snowshoeing this morning, it is absolutely beautiful out today. I hiked up to a little rock dome that allows for a view of downtown. A filthy brown haze hung over the city on what was a perfectly clear blue sky day. So anyhow this is my point; if people weren't stomping around in these woods (yes crushing plants and compacting soil) 120 years ago this would all now be houses and the filthy haze would be here too. Hello Cape Cod!

 

[This message has been edited by lynnwoods (edited 03-08-2001).]

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Guest big_g

Last weekend I visited the geocache mentioned, at least as far as I can tell. So let me contribute observations about this multistage cache.

 

I parked at a nearby trailhead and was able to approach to within .12 mi of the first stage using the established trail system. Subsequent stages, two in all, were within .25 miles of each other and were approachable with a combination of on and off trail travel.

 

The main trail that brought me to the first stage was a muddy swath 3-4 feet across except at the up/downhill sections where it expanded by 1-2 feet on either side. Real nice. Environmental impact much > 0 and quite visible and unsightly.

 

When it came time to leave the trail, I chose what was essentially an area of scree that had a suggestion of a trail already. Environmental impact == 0

 

After some scrambling, I encountered a small cement foundation with an old trail leading away through the jumbled rocks. The area around this site which at some point hosted a construction crew, then who ever visited this structure, then the wrecking crew appeared in the same condition as the rest of the area. Except for the remains of the structure, there was no lasting environmental damage and based on construction sites I've seen, amazing.

 

After more scrambling up the semi loose rocks, I found a flat area with two off-trail, giggling NON geocachers. From here I was close to the cache and proceeded over lichen covered rocks and a duff of pine needles mostly. I suppose that technically I had some impact on the forest floor at this point although I didn't see any at the time and was being careful.

 

About halfway to stage 2, it became clear that the rock outcroppings here were a frequent hiking destination. Much of the area had snow cover so I can't comment on what the impact was.

 

On my way to stage three, I run into the two non geocachers again and we exchange stalking comments. The three of us proceeded down a drainage with negligible impact to a well worn trail that took me to within .03-5 mi of the final cache.

 

Now at this point there was some milling around through snow and underbrush searching for the cache. I'm guessing this is where the incensed poster saw the two geocachers that inflamed him. I don't know what they were doing exactly so I can't comment. In my experience, the rather thin underbrush could simply be held or pushed to one side while I passed. Then it would snap back and the only evidence I was there was boot prints in the snow. Granted, I didn't always know what I was stepping on under the snow, but that necessitated traveling slowly and cautiously so I made sure I either on deep snow or solid ground rather than stepping into a bush or crevasse.

 

So in summary:

1) The damage I saw was concentrated near the official established trails and was not geocache related.

2) The whole cache area is a destination for geocachers and non geocachers alike.

3) The cache placer did a good job insuring that the large majority of travel could take place on official trails, avoided at least one closed area, and some off-limits eagle nesting habitat.

 

With all that said, some LNT information easily accessable on the Geocaching website would be a good idea. There's idiots in every group.

 

And BTW, while I was off trail I picked up some refuse. The place benefited from my passing through.

 

-G

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Guest WrongWay

big_g,

 

This would be good to forward to Dave Sutherland in Boulder.

 

Dave Sutherland

Education & Outreach Specialist

City of Boulder Open Space & Mountain Parks

P.O. Box 791

Boulder, Colorado 80306

Phone: 720-564-2057

Fax: 303-499-6181

sutherlandD@ci.boulder.co.us

 

regards,

 

Jim

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Guest Midnight

I believe that there are some potential enviornmental concerns with the sport such as the real erosion concerns made by some in this group. I am new to this game going on my first hunt just a few weeks ago. However I believe that following whatever rules are put in place by the appropriate authorities and plain common sense will go a long way toward preventing damage. If it doesn't feel right being someplace (such as a creekbed, unspoiled desert terrain, unstable slope or the like) don't go that way. As a group we should promote basic outdoor sense.

 

For the record, I enjoy responsable 4 wheeling in the California desert, camping and hiking and am a life member of the Sierra Club.

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Guest robanna

As of today, the geocache in Boulder Open Space has been removed. They have requested that no more caches be placed in the Open Spaces. There concerns seem to be less about erosion and more about creating new (as small as they may be) trails wich limit habbitat for the shyer animals.

 

I will be talking with them again on Friday. If you would like to send me your comments or concerns I will pass them along.

 

------------------

Edited by Keystone
removed personal information at poster's request
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  • 4 weeks later...
Guest boreal jeff

allowing clearcutting, in the park.

 

A few people, having fun with their GPS, are not going to cause any significant damage to the environment or wilderness. In fact, the more people using these areas may help to protect them. The powers-that-be may see the value in protecting wilderness areas. Also, it has been my experience that areas not used for recreation, are targetted for clearcutting. (out of sight, out of mind).

 

If you want to protect our environment/wilderness/forests, set your sights on the logging companies and their clearcutting practices.

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Guest Scout

A response to Mike_Teague's long-ago rant, which was never adequately replied to, that I could see:

 

Global warming does exist.

Humans did not evolve from "lesser" species.

The reason human "trampling" is a concern whereas bear and bobcat "trampling" is not is because of the much greater population of humans than bears or bobcats.

Just as Matt appeared to be letting his anti-capitalist tendencies color his view of geocaching, Mike appeared to be letting his anti-socialist tendencies color his view of environmentalism.

Although extinction has always happened, the rate of extinction over the last 100 years is alarming to those who realize how much we all benefit from the diversity of life on this planet.

There is a concern that the extinction of other species caused by humans propagating themselves in ever larger populations is a long-term threat to human's own continued existence, or at least the quality of that existence.

The contamination of our atmosphere, groundwater, and oceans with subtances harmful to plant and animal life is not just harmless rearranging of the surface of the Earth.

It's true that the Earth will continue to spin no matter what happens to homo sapiens. But many are concerned with the quality of life on the Earth while humans are still inhabiting it.

It's also true that geocaching plays only a minor role in harming the environment. And, as many have pointed out, geocachers are also counted among the responsible conservationists. We should continue to find ways to minimize the former and emphasize the latter. Flaming those who are environmental extremists does nothing on either front.

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Guest Lazyboy

You know I'm really concerned about that dirt getting trampled myself, that's why every year, I go out into the woods and kill those darn deer and elk. I mean, look, they live out there all year long, stomping around on fragile soils. We need to rid those mountains of those disgusting creatures and save our dirt!

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Guest bacpac

I guess I missed this thread earlier. I am concerned about the environment as well so I posted my cache a mere 15 steps from a well marked trail.

 

Matthew may be considered a troll, but his point should be considered when placing and searching for caches.

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Guest Goat Commander

Ummm...I'd like to also mention something that has gone unchecked but for Scout's post in this discussion. This may be best for another thread or another board entirely, but

 

global warming exists!

 

People who believe the "evidence" against it are not fully informed. Mike said to go out and research it - he should follow his own advice. The media and the internet are still circulating "evidence" like "satellites showing a cooling trend". Well, that was wrong. And the Oregon Petition? Fake! It was entirely made up of mostly irrelevant data and figures by a fellow who builds nuclear bunkers from his home. (A 20-year moving average? Useless!!!) It was "signed" by reputable scientists like "Ginger Spice" and "Clint Eastwood".

 

Just so you know, twice in the last 7 years an international panel of scientists has unanimously agreed that humans have caused an undoubtable impact on the environment, and the earth is warming as a result. For those who believe the trend is natural due to Milankovich or other longer term cycles - it's possible, but it would be by far the fastest rate of change seen in the last 300 million years.

 

For those who have "evidence" against global warming, please email it to me and I will try to debunk it for you.

 

Sorry for the lengthy post, but you need to know it's happening.

 

P.S. > One of the world's leading climate researchers taught at my university. Drawn by a media claim of "hundreds of scientists that doubt global warming" he held a national radio show attempting to contact said scientists. No scientist could be found that disagreed with global warming.

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