+RobertM Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 quote:Originally posted by yumitori:It's admirable that you wish to stick up for your friends, but you are muddying the waters. It's interesting that Cache-Advance and/or Mr.Gigabyte has not posted one message in the forums regarding the issue. I wonder why HE does not stand up for himself instead of hiding behind alias accounts and Groundspeak. Surely he has something to say on the matter. But I bet he's afraid of posting because he knows the response he's going to get from the geocaching community. It's easier to let Groundspeak use the magic broom. P.S. I'm still waiting for the reply to my e-mail. :-) No, this issue is not going to go away if people bury their heads in the sand. Link to comment
Jomarac5 Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 quote: Hydee wrote:Most of the cachers expressing concerns here are voicing hearsay not actual experience. Wanna bet? ***** Frogs taste like chicken, but fish is better for you. Link to comment
Bear & Ducky Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 quote:Originally posted by hydee:You as a community has been given a proper place to voice your concerns. Through emails to Groundspeak. If you choose not to email Groundspeak that is your choice. The Groundspeak Forums is not the place. You'd rather we all sit waiting for email responses and not shed to light all the common experiences we've heard or had which show the faults of geocaching.com. You think our only goal is to cause grief. Quite the contrary, my goal is to improve the environment for all cachers, and if it means I dedicate my servers and software and fibre network to run my own cache listing service then that may be the resolution. But I'm here trying to help give the admins a wake up call. The natives are unhappy and were not going away just because you edit/delete messages or avoid the issues. Preparing for censorship here now...there is one thing I find strangley familiar with the deletion of posts that *DO* have some relevance and *Bypassing* of statements trying to fill us with "This is not the topic", or "you are a minority" (hint hint go away)". It sounds like a dictatorship. Censor away, its the best way to win since you have the power. Keith Bear & Ducky Link to comment
Bear & Ducky Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 quote:Originally posted by yumitori:....so I feel that addressing it here first is quite premature. Where would you have us address issues that face us as a community? what else are forums for except to discuss and enjoy and improve the very item which they were built. Discussions are not just for the good topics, but also the bad and ugly ones that need to be discussed. The only way to stop these discussions in the open is to close the forums....nothing else will stop it because there are too many of us now getting vocal about our disatisfaction and all were asking for is a little give with the take take take. I'm sure I'd get all sorts of replies saying all cachers do is take take take...thats not the issue here, the issues are from cachers trying to give back into geocaching but they are constantly having problems with the approvers which means all we can do is take. Keith Of course the admins could keep deleting our posts but then their sport will start to change from geocachers/approvers to mail sorters. Because every message they delete will bring more in return, any accounts they prohibit will inspire others....the more they tighten their fingers the more star systems will slip right through them.....opps too much star wars. Bear & Ducky Link to comment
+seneca Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 quote:Originally posted by BrianSnat: quote:Notorious for some really silly, bad judgement, in the past, for which he paid the price. What price was that? Public ridicule and derision. I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me. Link to comment
dboggny Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 quote:Originally posted by seneca: quote:Originally posted by BrianSnat: quote:Notorious for some really silly, bad judgement, in the past, for which he paid the price. What price was that? Public ridicule and derision. _I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me._ then he got a reward. so "ouch" Link to comment
+seneca Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 quote:Originally posted by RobertM:Why does he have to give up under the Mr.Gigabyte name and use the Cache-Advance name? Well because he knows no one likes him and he is forced to use an alias. I have a different theory: An excellent, cacher becomes an approver under the name that everyone knows him by. A few (very few) local, mean spirited, whining cachers become absolute nuisances to this person. They incessantly contact him by e-mail, and by telephone to rudely challenge every decision he makes. They are very belligerant and argumentative. It gets completely out of hand. As much as the guy wants to help out by being a volunteer approver, he can’t take it anymore. He tells Geocaching.com, thanks but no thanks and quits approving. This is unfortunate because he is known by the reasonable, to be an excellent approver. He is encouraged to volunteer again, and reluctantly does so, but under a different moniker. Of course, like your theory, mine is speculative, but it is a scenario that fits the facts. (one might argue that it would be impossible to find an belligerant, whining Canadian, but I'm afraid that argument wouldn't sell on this site) I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me. Link to comment
Bear & Ducky Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 quote:Originally posted by seneca:I have a different theory: Yada yada yada... Read the message above if you want the rest I cut out. Theres a big hole in your theory as far as I can see. If they are constantly harassing this approver then wouldn't the approver submit the information to gc.com as an abuse situation and get the cachers banned or suspended? If they really are in the right I would think this is a no brainer....however if on the other hand they are not in the right then they do not want gc.com to know since it may threaten their percieved power position. quote: (one might argue that it would be impossible to find an belligerant, whining Canadian, but I'm afraid that argument wouldn't sell on this site) You know I've had messages in this thread edited or deleted for statements very similiar or less than that. Keith Bear & Ducky Link to comment
+Pharmadude Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 I have spent the last 30 minutes reading this and the previous thread in an attempt to bring myself up to speed on this "issue". These are my comments. I'll keep them brief. -I know Jomarac5. He is a great guy. He has been helpful and supportive in my caches. He has a lovely wife and 3 great kids. I had a great time with him the day he took me on an all-day kayaking trip. That said, I have to wonder sometimes who the Jomarac5 in the forums is. It seems he goes out of his way to be provocative. If I had any advice at all, it would be: take 2 or 3 deep breaths, Dan, before you press the Post Now button. - I know MrG. My first encounter with him had me on the receiving end of his 'wrath'. I got over it. We exchanged many emails over the months. I had problems finding some of his caches. He was most helpful in his advice. He approved several of my caches. We had several laughs. I learned not to push certain 'buttons' at my peril. He told me he suspected J5 was stealing his caches. I knew that to be false and told him so. Eventually we met. I found him to be quite pleasant, a keen supporter of geocaching. I still want to make that Serengeti trip with you, Bob. If I had any advice at all, it would be: Hey, remember it's just a game. Lighten up! -I have no problem with approvers using pseudonyms. We all do it on this site. If we then choose to reveal our identities to those we trust, that's our choice. Link to comment
+Solar Max Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 Has anyone ever noticed that Southern British Columbia has more than it's fair share of contoversy? Perhaps it's our climate, or our lifestyle, but we do seem to like to dirty up Hydee's sandbox. To address Hydee's issue, about hearsay verus experience, I can say the following: I have not met Jomarac5, though I quite often find his posts illuminating and thought provoking. He has, on occasion been known to ruffle a few feathers, but this does not take away from his persona in any way, as he is entitled to his opinion. He does keep us on our toes, after all. I have met RobertM, and am impressed with his ability and intelligence. I do not however, believe that any of us could ever convince J5 and RM of the need to have an "Approver" account. They simply can't see that particular point of view. That is not a fault, it is just their point of view. Seneca brings up a very good point. MrGigabyte may, or may not ( I was not present, so I can neither confirm nor deny) have infringed upon some written or unwritten geocaching.com guidelines. I do know that Seneca described that alleged episode best, however, "PUblic Ridicule". That is the toughest thing that anyone in this sport could be forced to bear. I know MrGigabyte. I do not believe that I know Cache-Advance, although he (C-A) has approved caches of mine in the past, and helped when I screwed up even that simple task. I have cached both with MrG, and in friendly competition with him. He is a great guy, and a credit to the sport. If he IS an approver, then why not cut some slack for him, Hydee, Mtn-man, and all the other approvers. They are volunteers, after all. OK J5, I'm wearing my Kevlar Flak Jacket. Fire when ready. Washington State Geocaching Association [This message was edited by marinerBC on October 21, 2003 at 08:13 PM.] Link to comment
+briansnat Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 I only know of this Mr G because of that cheating epispode a while ago. Never met the guy, but it appears that a number of people have had problems with him. Even a poster who was sticking up for him said "My first encounter with him had me on the receiving end of his 'wrath'. I got over it." Interesting is all I can say. "You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm Link to comment
+WCoaster Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 My two cents worth for what it is worth. I was speaking with a local cacher today about this thread and I made the comment that geocaching seems to be a sport full of type A personalities, especially in Southern BC. (At least those of us that are willing to put it on the line in these forums. Why that is is beyond me and I am sure it can be debated.) The point is that when us type A's get together we all love to push and direct the group. It's what we do. Of course no self respecting type A likes to be pushed or directed themselves. Hence a recipe for fireworks, as can be easily observed here. The one thing that I will go on record for is that all the people involved in the Vancouver issues are good people who love geocaching and have contributed imensely to it. They just have problems with each other. So be it! That in itself is a good enough reason for approvers to use alliases. What would be nice to see from GC regarding logged complaints about cachers or approvers is to implement a corrective actions protocol. For those not familiar with quality systems a corrective actions protocol is process where any complaint is logged and given a completion date. On or before the completion date a written response must be returned to the person who initiated the complaint. The response must include the corrective actions taken to ensure the matter is corrected or the reason why it was decided no action was required. Idealy a schedule of all corrective actions initiated would be posted with their respecetive due dates and actual completion dates. This would publicly demonstrate that our concerns as cachers are being addressed and would probably provide a better vehicle for enhancing the geocaching experience than forums ever could. OK gang have at 'er! You can steer all you want, but it is all for naught if your not moving forward! Link to comment
+Ish-n-Isha Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 Originally posted by WCoaster:Idealy a schedule of all corrective actions initiated would be posted with their respecetive due dates and actual completion dates. This would publicly demonstrate that our concerns as cachers are being addressed and would probably provide a better vehicle for enhancing the geocaching experience than forums ever could. OK gang have at 'er! QUOTE] Enjoyed your post. In another thread the admins speak of approvers approving their own caches as a perk or a status earned thing. When an admin violates a fundamental tennant, it shows a fairly flippant attitude. Is this to be rewarded and justified on GC.com? Surely an example must be set to both establish a precident and reassure the masses. GC in its infinite wisdom has decided to not take these actions. Is it totally unreasonable that the natives are a little restless? Cachin's a bit sweeter when you've got an Isha! Link to comment
+WCoaster Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 quote: When an admin violates a fundamental tennant, it shows a fairly flippant attitude. Is this to be rewarded and justified on GC.com? Surely an example must be set to both establish a precident and reassure the masses. If a violation were reported it would be logged as a corrective action. This in itself forces matters to be dealt with because they are there for all to see. Be aware this is a double edged sword but it does get results if the true goal is the betterment for the sake of betterment. quote: GC in its infinite wisdom has decided to not take these actions.Is it totally unreasonable that the natives are a little restless? I think the mere fact that GC started This Thread is because it is listening to the masses. You can steer all you want, but it is all for naught if your not moving forward! Link to comment
Bear & Ducky Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 quote:Originally posted by WCoaster:I think the mere fact that GC started http://ubbx.Groundspeak.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=5726007311&f=4016058331&m=40160869 is because it is listening to the masses. Well it started it, then edited it then deleted new threads that discussed things they didnt want brought up in that thread. Not sure how much of that is listening or those type A's being talked about refusing to be directed. Keith Bear & Ducky Link to comment
+woodsters Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Jomarac5: No, that's not what he said. He said that there's no record of e-mail complaints from Cache-Advance. No actually Jeremy stated there was no record of email complaints for Cache Advance of his/her reviewing exploits. Brian www.woodsters.com My Stats Found: 70 Hidden: 2 Link to comment
+Touchstone Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Bear & Ducky: quote:Originally posted by WCoaster:I think the mere fact that GC started http://ubbx.Groundspeak.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=5726007311&f=4016058331&m=40160869 is because it is listening to the masses. Well it started it, then edited it then deleted new threads that discussed things they didnt want brought up in that thread. Not sure how much of that is listening or those type A's being talked about refusing to be directed. Keith Bear & Ducky I guess you could start your own topic. Since Hydee started that thread, it seems fair she can direct the topic in order to get the answers she's looking for, rather than letting people hi-jack it Do like Criminal did and start a topic on Tree roots, and Geocaching, and moderate it yourself (I'd markwell it, but I've gotta get to work) Be not afraid of greatness: some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them. The rest go geocaching. Link to comment
+Ish-n-Isha Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 quote:Originally posted by WCoaster: I think the mere fact that GC started http://ubbx.Groundspeak.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=5726007311&f=4016058331&m=40160869 is because it is listening to the masses. QUOTE] Listening good. Placating bad. Lets hope its the former. Cachin's a bit sweeter when you've got an Isha! Link to comment
+hydee Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 You as a community has been given a proper place to voice your concerns. Through emails to Groundspeak. If you choose not to email Groundspeak that is your choice. The Groundspeak Forums is not the place. Dredging up the past is not going to help. Approvers are chosen by Groundspeak, and to this time the approver that is being constantly brought back up has done a great job as an approver. Most of the cachers expressing concerns here are voicing hearsay not actual experience. Again. This is not the place for this discussion. hydee I work for the frog Please don't throw sand when playing in the sandbox! Link to comment
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