Commercialism?

[+Slytherin]

A friend of mine has had a cache refused because the description contains the phrases:

 

"there are plenty of pubs in the village" and "toilets and ice creams can be found here"

 

What the heck is going on? Does this make a cache commercial. Not in my book it doesn't.

 

The Geocaching police are going bonkers. We should be encouraging new people to plant caches, not nit-picking them to death.

[+erik88l-r]

You might ask your friend if one of his caches also contained:

 

"The lunch is here:

N 54° 13.488

W 01° 39.508

 

Attached to the Theakston brewery, the White Bear offers the full range of Theakston beers and some interesting food. Hot meals are on offer as well as sandwiches and veggie options are available. Lunch 12 - 2:30 and evening meals may be had as well.

 

We had the Black Bull Bitter at £1:60 a pint and the Smoked Wensleydale with Mango Chutney sandwiches on freshly cut granary with salad garnish. Not cheap at £3:75 each - but terribly good and very filling. "

 

Since the cache description has everything but the menu included it is holding pending modification, as is (I believe) the one you refer to.

 

Cheers,

erik - geocaching admin lackey

[+Slytherin]

I'm not interested in the cache that you quote, that is a different matter altogether. Deal with that one how you wish.

 

But tell me what is wrong with saying "there are plenty of pubs in the village"

 

I could find you many hundreds of similar cache descriptions which point out local amenities close to the cache/parking co-ordinates. No one is forcing anyone to actually go into the pubs. Over here we enter them voluntarily on many occassions, particularly after geocaching.

 

A.

[BassoonPilot]

Gee, with only those two lines quoted out of context, it's hard to know what's really going on.

 

It appears that the Approvers are doing precisely what they were instructed to do: withhold approval from any cache they consider questionable, pending clarification and (probably) modification.

 

As we have already seen, withholding approval is not the same as denying approval.

[+seneca]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Slytherin formerly known as kimRobin:

"there are plenty of pubs in the village" and "toilets and ice creams can be found here"

---

 

Those two lines in themselves would not make this a "commercial" cache in my book. It is just useful information of a general nature. Mind you, before passing judgement on the approvers, I would like to see the entire cache description. (My opinion might differ if I had knowledge that the cache owner owned or operated one of the pubs in the village).

 

You may not agree with what I say, but I will defend, to your death, my right to say it!(it's a Joke, OK!)

[magellan315]

Without seeing the entire description its hard to tell. Howvever it sounds like they are letting you know that there are places nearby to eat and wash up. I saw the description of a nearby cache I was thinking of going to while on vacation. They also let you know where to find great ice cream. I nice touch if you are not familiar with the area.

[+erik88l-r]

I believe the cache in question states:

 

"You may want to hold your appetite and visit the nearby farm where Brymor ice cream is made. There are 30 flavours on offer as cones or sundaes. Meals are also available."

 

Without having more details on which geocacher's cache you're refering to I can only make educated guesses. Five caches were submitted at the same time by the same person. Two have been posted, three are either pending modification or holding for other reasons. I am not the admin who is directly involved in these but was asked for input.

 

Looking at all five together they read a bit like a culinary tour of Yorkshire. I think references to ice cream outlets and the like are fine, it's brand names and an excessive amount of information that makes it appear commercial. If you'll look at the guidelines Jeremy posted it's that appearance, even if unintentional, that causes problems. Why not just concentrate on a cache description and let the finder also discover the surprise of great ice cream?

 

Cheers!

[The Argonds]

There's a little confusion here.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ~erik~:

holding pending modification, as is (I believe) the one you refer to.

---

 

You would be mistaken. The one to which Slytherin is referring is not held pending modification. It was previously approved (and has had three visits) and has now been amended to remove the 'offending' general reference to there being pubs and ice cream nearby. Amended without consulting us, I should add, which we find quite upsetting.

 

For those who have asked to see the rest of the cache description, it's GC625B.

 

Our other four caches (one already approved) are the ones which it appears we are going to be asked to modify; but some of them make little sense when modified as required, so we will presumably have to withdraw them.

 

We certainly have no connection with any of the commercial concerns we've referred to, either explicitly or in general terms.

 

The Argonds: Grondar and Dagnor

[The Argonds]

Regarding the ice cream reference. The cache which explicitly refers to a brand of ice cream is one of the ones which is currently unapproved.

 

It's cache GC625B, already approved two weeks ago, which has been amended without consultation to have the phrases (as verbatim as we can recall) "There are plenty of pubs and other eating places in the village" and "There are toilets and ice creams here " removed (the toilets reference has been left).

 

It is this particular cache which leaves us most confused and aggrieved. We simply cannot understand (a) what the problem is and ( more importantly, why our description was edited without consulting us.

 

As far as the other more explicit references to brand names and commercial outlets go, we are happy to comply with the wishes of geocaching.com. We're puzzled though as to what is permitted in this respect as we have seen many other caches approved (some very recently) with similar or stronger references to commercial products. In the discussions we've had so far with the approvers, we have become more, not less, confused as to what is and is not allowed.

 

The Argonds: Grondar and Dagnor

[+seneca]

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Argonds:

"There are toilets and ice creams here "

 

When I previously posted a reply to this thread, I didn't realize that there were exact co-ordinates specified where you could purchase ice-cream. From your initial description, it appeared it was just a reference to the area in general. I think it is safe to presume that any cache co-ordinates or description that takes you to the doorstep of a specific business (whether it is advertising or not), will not be approved.

 

You may not agree with what I say, but I will defend, to your death, my right to say it!(it's a Joke, OK!)

[+welch]

so you want to know whats wrong with certain phrases, that you have taken out of context, and not provided a link to the cache??

i would have to therefore assume that how they were used was the reason the cache was refused, if they were infact only the reasons for the cache not being approved.

 

As for nit-picking new people, i dont think it has anything to do with them being new, they simply did not follow the directions concerning placement of new caches.

 

If you or your freind think the "Geocaching police" are out to get you, then you always have the option of moving to a new caching site.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Slytherin formerly known as kimRobin:

A friend of mine has had a cache refused because the description contains the phrases:

 

"there are plenty of pubs in the village" and "toilets and ice creams can be found here"

 

What the heck is going on? Does this make a cache commercial. Not in my book it doesn't.

 

The Geocaching police are going bonkers. We should be encouraging new people to plant caches, not nit-picking them to death.

---

 

[+Slytherin]

quote:

---

Originally posted by welch:

so you want to know whats wrong with certain phrases, that you have taken out of context, and not provided a link to the cache??

---

 

The phrases were not taken out of context at all.

 

I asked the simple question, what is wrong with telling cachers where they can get refreshments after caching. As someone that takes a nine year old geocaching with me, I am more than grateful to know where the toilets and ice cream can be found.

 

By the way, I have to say that your "if you don't like it, go away" attitute stinks.

 

[This message was edited by Slytherin formerly known as kimRobin on June 24, 2002 at 08:00 AM.]

[+welch]

a link would be quicker than using a profile.

The Golden Thumb:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=25179

quote:

---

Originally

For those who have asked to see the rest of the cache description, it's GC625B.

 

---

 

[+seneca]

quote:

---

Originally posted by welch:

 

If you or your freind think the "Geocaching police" are out to get you, then you always have the option of moving to a new caching site.

---

 

If you don't like reading complaints and concerns about Geocaching, then you always have the option of moving to a new forum.

 

You may not agree with what I say, but I will defend, to your death, my right to say it!(it's a Joke, OK!)

[+Seth!]

Perhaps my next cache should give coordinates for the nearest "chill pills". Let's all take a deep breath and say, "We're talking about geocaches."

 

As admins, we're not out to spoil anyone's parade--or their ice cream, or their potty break. We're trying to maintain a fairly level playing field. The Argonds' caches received quite a bit of discussion. In the end, we figured most of the caches sounded super. But we also have to remember that people will get ticked off if they think we let a commercial advertisement slip through. We try to be safe, not sorry. But we are sorry if we've gone and upset the Argonds. Please understand that we are trying to do a reasonable job at our task and we try to consult everyone before we make big decisions. Now, there are about a hundred new caches in the queue and I've got to go work on that list...

 

Peace. Go hunt a cache!

- Seth!

[+welch]

There is nothing "wrong" with telling cachers were they can get refreshments, but it is considered a commerial cache when you do so, in the manner that was used.

 

[This message was edited by welch on June 24, 2002 at 08:13 AM.]

[+welch]

quote:

---

Originally posted by seneca:

If you don't like reading complaints and concerns about Geocaching, then you always have the option of moving to a new forum.

 

_You may not agree with what I say, but I will defend, to your death, my right to say it!(it's a Joke, OK!)_

---

 

of course you are correct

 

[+erik88l-r]

I'm glad to see the geocacher who's 'caches we're discussing enter the discussion. It was all real vague before. Now it's only a little vague

 

I looked at GC625B and it looks fine. I honestly don't know what it looked like before editing but suspect that any references to commercial establishments were not of a general nature. Again, not knowing what it looked like I can only infer from the way the admins work. If a specific restaurant is noted it would be considered commercial, if restaurants in general were noted I wouldn't think it a problem. Something like "there's a McDonalds here" would make us gag, whereas "there are a selection of restaurants available at the south end of town" should not cause concern.

 

As Jeremy states in his guidelines - it you think there may be a concern ask first.

 

Regarding deleting text or editing w/o asking I've gotta admit that with hundreds of caches in the queue requireing lots of HTML editing and spelling corrections we can't always advise the poster of minor changes. If there is a major change we don't do it - we e-mail requesting the poster make the changes and hold the cache at the head of the list in a pending status. If amendments aren't made within a couple of days and no communication is recieved we generally archive the cache with a final e-mail advising resubmission when the poster has time to attend to it.

 

I don't think the "bugger off" implication is appropriate either - we're all in this together and the admins are here to support the group, not work against the group - but we do have to abide by the rules. Perhaps there are different regional interpretations of the rules. We are afterall seperated by a common language!

[+erik88l-r]

I'm glad to see the geocacher who's 'caches we're discussing enter the discussion. It was all real vague before. Now it's only a little vague

 

I looked at GC625B and it looks fine. I honestly don't know what it looked like before editing but suspect that any references to commercial establishments were not of a general nature. Again, not knowing what it looked like I can only infer from the way the admins work. If a specific restaurant is noted it would be considered commercial, if restaurants in general were noted I wouldn't think it a problem. Something like "there's a McDonalds here" would make us gag, whereas "there are a selection of restaurants available at the south end of town" should not cause concern.

 

As Jeremy states in his guidelines - it you think there may be a concern ask first.

 

Regarding deleting text or editing w/o asking I've gotta admit that with hundreds of caches in the queue requireing lots of HTML editing and spelling corrections we can't always advise the poster of minor changes. If there is a major change we don't do it - we e-mail requesting the poster make the changes and hold the cache at the head of the list in a pending status. If amendments aren't made within a couple of days and no communication is recieved we generally archive the cache with a final e-mail advising resubmission when the poster has time to attend to it.

 

I don't think the "bugger off" implication is appropriate either - we're all in this together and the admins are here to support the group, not work against the group - but we do have to abide by the rules. Perhaps there are different regional interpretations of the rules. We are afterall seperated by a common language!

[+Slytherin]

quote:

---

Originally posted by ~erik~:

I don't think the "bugger off" implication is appropriate either - we're all in this together and the admins are here to support the group, not work against the group - but we do have to abide by the rules. Perhaps there are different regional interpretations of the rules. We are afterall seperated by a common language!

---

 

I have amended that part of my message.

 

The only reason that I posted in the first place was because I thought that things were getting a little out of hand regarding the definition of commercialism.

 

Many bits of the Argonds caches crossed the line of commercialism, but "there are plenty of pubs in the village" certainly doesn't. Maybe a more clearly defined line is needed?

 

Having opened the can of worms, I'm now closing it. Got caches to log. See 'ya.

[+erik88l-r]

Got caches to log? Must be nice! Wish I had some to log instead of sitting in my cubicle at work. Whoops the boss is coming, gotta run....

[+Bear and Ting]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Seth!:

Perhaps my next cache should give coordinates for the nearest "chill pills". Let's all take a deep breath and say, "We're talking about geocaches."

 

As admins, we're not out to spoil anyone's parade--or their ice cream, or their potty break. We're trying to maintain a fairly level playing field. The Argonds' caches received quite a bit of discussion. In the end, we figured most of the caches sounded super. But we also have to remember that people will get ticked off if they think we let a commercial advertisement slip through. We try to be safe, not sorry. But we are sorry if we've gone and upset the Argonds. Please understand that we are trying to do a reasonable job at our task and we try to consult everyone before we make big decisions. Now, there are about a hundred new caches in the queue and I've got to go work on that list...

 

Peace. Go hunt a cache!

- Seth!

---

 

I agree that the location of bathrooms or WCs would be a good thing as would it be to know there is a gas or petrol station (for those caches DEEP in the wilderness). However, I think Ting would agree that naming a specific pub or eatery might not be a good thing. I mean, if you were a vegetarian and there coordinates lead to a steak house, it would not be good or helpful. However, if there are places of interest (a Diner that Elvis ate at), then perhaps. In my humble opinion, I would not want to be led to the steps of a church (though I would appreciate the architecture).

 

Would it be better to place points of interest around the cache into notes in the log??

 

Geocachers don't NEED to ask for directions!