Is graffiti a form of trash?

August 31, 2002

Geocaching has long used the slogan "Cache in, Trash out." Today I saw a new form of trash created by a fellow geocacher on public (State Game) Land in Pennsylvania. The trash was in the form of graffiti in bright orange paint. While the cache had a excellent theme, honoring those who died on September 11. I am upset by the illegal trashing of the environment with a paint sign saying "911". I saw the sign, read the decoded hint which refers to this sign, and decided to look no further.

It is important to note that this graffiti was written by a premier geocacher. One who new comers to our sport should and will copy. Could graffiti lead to bad publicity for geocaching? I would like other cachers opinion on this subject.

The cache in question is Lest We Forget.

August 31, 2002

Let the flame war begin, but I'll start;

A) congratulations on having the class to not continue on for this cache. to log a find would have been to lend credibility towards this cachers actions.

Archive this cache!!!!! There is no way on earth the land managers for this particular piece of state game land would have given permission to spraypaint a boulder like this.

C) Even if this orange spray paint was here and you built the cache around it, what were you thinking??? Sure, I could give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't actually paint said boulder, but anyone who was anti caching would be sending this cache up the flagpole as an example of how we cachers "Abuse the environment". Can you prove you didn't paint this rock?

D) AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH

My head hurts just thinking how stupid this is.

Admin: please refer to point (

It's a game folks..........

August 31, 2002

Let the flame war begin, but I'll start;

A) congratulations on having the class to not continue on for this cache. to log a find would have been to lend credibility towards this cachers actions.

Archive this cache!!!!! There is no way on earth the land managers for this particular piece of state game land would have given permission to spraypaint a boulder like this.

C) Even if this orange spray paint was here and you built the cache around it, what were you thinking??? Sure, I could give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't actually paint said boulder, but anyone who was anti caching would be sending this cache up the flagpole as an example of how we cachers "Abuse the environment". Can you prove you didn't paint this rock?

D) AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH

My head hurts just thinking how stupid this is.

Admin: please refer to point (

It's a game folks..........

August 31, 2002

So, graffitti bugs you huh Irvingdog. And you thought I was weird in my hate for litterbugs!! No differance! Just because it was a cacher maybe!! It will never stop!! Not without enforcement!! Seeker BP

August 31, 2002

So, graffitti bugs you huh Irvingdog. And you thought I was weird in my hate for litterbugs!! No differance! Just because it was a cacher maybe!! It will never stop!! Not without enforcement!! Seeker BP

2.5k · August 31, 2002

I don't know about this one. Couldn't it be possible that the hider did not create the grafitti and it was there already, thus inspiring him to create this cache? The clue to this cache is really no different from this one, with the exception that he did not mention the origin of the sign.

3k · August 31, 2002

I agree that creating graffiti when establishing a cache is wrong.

But I've done multicaches where coordinates for subsequent elements had been written in indelible marker on objects. (walls, doors, trees, benches) Is that any different?

I have also seen cachers use existing bits of graffiti both as virtual caches or as clues for caches. I don't object to that. Should I have?

August 31, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by seeker bp (Team E-Trex):
So, graffitti bugs you huh Irvingdog. And you thought I was weird in my hate for litterbugs!! No differance! Just because it was a cacher maybe!! It will never stop!! Not without enforcement!! Seeker BP

No "Seeker", I've got no problems with people who dislike litterbugs, but (and this is your words now) uhh, this is gestapo, big brother paranoid delusional lunacy.

"Well how about a volunteer team to hook up with cameras, camcorders, and camoflauge and sit a weekend and collect enough proof to stop some of this. Anybody out there interested in making a differance. I am very serious in my intentions and would like some help. Throw me some input and lets see where we can take this!!"

thread posted August 4th by seeker BP

why don't you sit in a tree and wait for a purse snatcher or something? You fight litter by setting a good example, picking up what debris you find, educating kids, and, just like you said in this post, enforce existing laws, but you don't sit in trees waiting for the offense. Your grip is loosening, and I'd hate to see you fall from your tree.........

Sorry folks, I didn't mean to hijack the thread, but I got called out........

It's a game folks..........

[This message was edited by Irvingdog on August 31, 2002 at 10:45 PM.]

August 31, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by seeker bp (Team E-Trex):
So, graffitti bugs you huh Irvingdog. And you thought I was weird in my hate for litterbugs!! No differance! Just because it was a cacher maybe!! It will never stop!! Not without enforcement!! Seeker BP

No "Seeker", I've got no problems with people who dislike litterbugs, but (and this is your words now) uhh, this is gestapo, big brother paranoid delusional lunacy.

"Well how about a volunteer team to hook up with cameras, camcorders, and camoflauge and sit a weekend and collect enough proof to stop some of this. Anybody out there interested in making a differance. I am very serious in my intentions and would like some help. Throw me some input and lets see where we can take this!!"

thread posted August 4th by seeker BP

why don't you sit in a tree and wait for a purse snatcher or something? You fight litter by setting a good example, picking up what debris you find, educating kids, and, just like you said in this post, enforce existing laws, but you don't sit in trees waiting for the offense. Your grip is loosening, and I'd hate to see you fall from your tree.........

Sorry folks, I didn't mean to hijack the thread, but I got called out........

It's a game folks..........

[This message was edited by Irvingdog on August 31, 2002 at 10:45 PM.]

2.5k · August 31, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Irvingdog:

A) congratulations on having the class to not continue on for this cache. to log a find would have been to lend credibility towards this cachers actions.

Archive this cache!!!!! There is no way on earth the land managers for this particular piece of state game land would have given permission to spraypaint a boulder like this.

C) Even if this orange spray paint was here and you built the cache around it, what were you thinking??? Sure, I could give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't actually paint said boulder, but anyone who was anti caching would be sending this cache up the flagpole as an example of how we cachers "Abuse the environment". Can you prove you _didn't _ paint this rock?

Can you prove you didn't create the grafitti or trash on this cache? Maybe it should be archived as well before someone thinks that geocachers are responsible for this mess.

August 31, 2002

The grafitti in this cache is not a built in, intergral part of the cache. I created this cache to draw attention and try to get folks to start to use a park that was otherwise being neglected. No where in this cache do I have people take a left hand turn at the "Sad Little Park" grafitti. you are making huge leaps here in an attempt to bicker with me and make me seem hypocritical Cachew Nut.

It's a game folks..........

2.5k · August 31, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Irvingdog:
No where in this cache do I have people take a left hand turn at the "Sad Little Park" grafitti. you are making huge leaps here in an attempt to bicker with me and make me seem hypocritical Cachew Nut.

I'm not bickering, I'm flaming. You said to let the flame wars begin. You are suggesting that the administration archive a cache that you personally don't like. It's not violating any of the rules, and you seem determined to put the blame of the grafitti on the hider without any proof.

September 1, 2002

Regardless of who painted it. Damage is done. The graffiti is illegal.

Loomis

38.2k · September 1, 2002

According to the cheat in this cache, the graffiti marks the "trailhead", not the cache itself.

I own a cache where I also use graffiti on a rock in the cheater. I did not paint it, but I do say in the cheater "turn off at the graffiti marked rock". I'd rather the graffiti was not present, but the the fact remains that it is there, so I don't see a problem with using it.

Now if the Geocachers in question here are the graffiti "artists", then that is incredibly irresponsible. So much so, that I can't imagine that it being done by an experienced Geocacher (or anyone with half a brain for that matter). It's

my bet that they used existing graffiti as a landmark, which I think that is a legit method.

Now if I'm wrong, these people should be ashamed of themselves and they owe the Geocaching community (and society in general) an apology and a trip out there with some kerosene and a wire brush to get rid of their handywork.

Why don't we first find out what the real story is before we hang these people?

"Life is a daring adventure, or it is nothing" - Helen Keller

1k · September 1, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:
Now if I'm wrong, these people should be ashamed of themselves and they owe the Geocaching community (and society in general) an apology and a trip out there with some kerosene and a wire brush to get rid of their handywork.

Kerosene? Now we'll have the EPA shutting our game down!

Sorry, couldn't help notice the humor in removing graffitti which is has little environmental impact to a rock (except being an awful eyesore) with kerosene, which could be spilled over the ground. I agree with your main objective though.

Living on Earth is expensive, but it does include a free trip around the sun.

1k · September 1, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:
Now if I'm wrong, these people should be ashamed of themselves and they owe the Geocaching community (and society in general) an apology and a trip out there with some kerosene and a wire brush to get rid of their handywork.

Kerosene? Now we'll have the EPA shutting our game down!

Sorry, couldn't help notice the humor in removing graffitti which is has little environmental impact to a rock (except being an awful eyesore) with kerosene, which could be spilled over the ground. I agree with your main objective though.

Living on Earth is expensive, but it does include a free trip around the sun.

September 1, 2002

People ask these questions, and then they get all bent out of shape when we give our two cents. I really do not want to see trash and spraypainted rocks and such. You might as well take your ideas of educating people and flush them. One cacher is complaining about graffitti, but turns around and uses it to guide people to a virtual with graffitti. Now if that isnt hypocritical, what is??? I may be losing my grip, but look ahead. That little park that you say is totally trashed. Why is that?? Because no one cares. So what do your kids have to look forward to?? Are they gonna look past all the trash too?? Sounds as if you have!! So quick to slam people, but so slow to take action.

September 1, 2002

People ask these questions, and then they get all bent out of shape when we give our two cents. I really do not want to see trash and spraypainted rocks and such. You might as well take your ideas of educating people and flush them. One cacher is complaining about graffitti, but turns around and uses it to guide people to a virtual with graffitti. Now if that isnt hypocritical, what is??? I may be losing my grip, but look ahead. That little park that you say is totally trashed. Why is that?? Because no one cares. So what do your kids have to look forward to?? Are they gonna look past all the trash too?? Sounds as if you have!! So quick to slam people, but so slow to take action.

September 1, 2002

To add a little information to the original controversy:

1. The writing of "911" was not done with spray paint. It was hand-painted on in 3 or 4 inch high letters. The rock is situated less than five feet from a clearly marked trail, and very visible from the trail. It appears to be recently made.

2. I saw no other graffiti in the area. I did see surveyors paint marks nearby, and there were also the painted trail blazes.

3. I personally believe it was done by the geocacher as a non thinking act, although I am not sure. I hope that they will respond to this thread and clarify it.

4. This cache and the graffiti may be in the watershed that supplies water to Harrisburg, PA. If someone knows more about this I would appreciate it.

5. It is still something that is not environmentally sound and geocaching should not be associated with it.

3k · September 1, 2002

This land is your land, this land is my land.

Let's keep it clean now, not let it out of hand,

From the Redwood Forest, to the Gulf Stream waters,

Keep it clean now, for our sons and daughters.

This land was made for you and me.

Graffiti bad

Litter bad

Pollution bad

Mother Nature good

Don't make her sad

Planet

3k · September 1, 2002

This land is your land, this land is my land.

Let's keep it clean now, not let it out of hand,

From the Redwood Forest, to the Gulf Stream waters,

Keep it clean now, for our sons and daughters.

This land was made for you and me.

Graffiti bad

Litter bad

Pollution bad

Mother Nature good

Don't make her sad

Planet

September 1, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by seeker bp (Team E-Trex):
That little park that you say is totally trashed. Why is that?? Because no one cares. So what do your kids have to look forward to?? Are they gonna look past all the trash too?? Sounds as if you have!! So quick to slam people, but so slow to take action.

You know absolutely nothing of what you speak!!!

Granted, I'm not sitting in trees waiting for perpatrators, but I did just get approval from my city to place a locked ammo box in a park, and got them to donate a garbage can that they will empty once a month. Cachers will find in the ammo box

A) A box of rubber gloves

A box of trash bags

C) a dsposable camera

To log the visit, you MUST cache in and trash out, take a photo of your filled trash bag (to be sent to Mn. state park systems, who have banned caching) and leave the bag in a trash barrel with the geocaching logo painted on it. This is how I would have built "Sad little Park" also, but I didn't get approval in time. When it is posted, I'll send you a copy. I know I'm not as virtuous as you, but I'm trying.

And BTW, I used the Grafitti in S.L.P. only to illustrate how some of the parks in our system were slipping. If they get used by families and environmentally conscious cachers instead of kids painting on walls like dogs lifting their legs, perhaps the city will see the value in the parks that I believe is there. In no way did I do any damage to the park! On the contrary, I'm trying to get local cities to improve them along with my own grass roots efforts.

Big smootches B.P. Seeker. Go pick a fight with someone else.

It's a game folks..........

September 1, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by seeker bp (Team E-Trex):
That little park that you say is totally trashed. Why is that?? Because no one cares. So what do your kids have to look forward to?? Are they gonna look past all the trash too?? Sounds as if you have!! So quick to slam people, but so slow to take action.

You know absolutely nothing of what you speak!!!

Granted, I'm not sitting in trees waiting for perpatrators, but I did just get approval from my city to place a locked ammo box in a park, and got them to donate a garbage can that they will empty once a month. Cachers will find in the ammo box

A) A box of rubber gloves

A box of trash bags

C) a dsposable camera

To log the visit, you MUST cache in and trash out, take a photo of your filled trash bag (to be sent to Mn. state park systems, who have banned caching) and leave the bag in a trash barrel with the geocaching logo painted on it. This is how I would have built "Sad little Park" also, but I didn't get approval in time. When it is posted, I'll send you a copy. I know I'm not as virtuous as you, but I'm trying.

And BTW, I used the Grafitti in S.L.P. only to illustrate how some of the parks in our system were slipping. If they get used by families and environmentally conscious cachers instead of kids painting on walls like dogs lifting their legs, perhaps the city will see the value in the parks that I believe is there. In no way did I do any damage to the park! On the contrary, I'm trying to get local cities to improve them along with my own grass roots efforts.

Big smootches B.P. Seeker. Go pick a fight with someone else.

It's a game folks..........

September 1, 2002

Hats off to you.You see, we are not that differant at all. We want the same things, but you get so defensive. You see, I spend countless hours volunteering my time to clean State Parks and Waterways, and come back to the same thing every month. I do not just talk crap, I am doing something about it. Smootches to you too!!

September 1, 2002

Hats off to you.You see, we are not that differant at all. We want the same things, but you get so defensive. You see, I spend countless hours volunteering my time to clean State Parks and Waterways, and come back to the same thing every month. I do not just talk crap, I am doing something about it. Smootches to you too!!

September 1, 2002

Waterboy, I appreciate your concern for the environment and I have certainly seen grafitti-ridden areas that are a blight on the land, but I'm not sure that this example is quite as bad as you make it sound. As I understand it, the painted numbers are 3 to 4 inches high on a rock and meant to show the point at which you should leave the trail. While this may be larger or more specific than a trail blaze, I believe it was created for the same purpose. With all of the concern that has been expressed about creating new trails through bushwhacking, this would seem to be a means of limiting such potential damage. I would also suggest that it is much less intrusive than the painted arrows I have seen on the ground, rocks and trees to denote a mountain bike course - some of these markings are still visible after a year or more. While I have not spoken to the cache owners about this, I have to believe that their motives were innocent.

Just my opinion...

Bob

1.7k · September 1, 2002

Has anyone considered e-mailing these people and finding what actually happened, instead of trying to second guess their intent.

September 1, 2002

I didnt see any mention in the cache description page where it mentions the hider painted the rock. Has anyone asked the cacher if they painted the rock or are we all just looking for another reason to P&M? I dunno, something about innocent until...

1.5k · September 1, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Team 5-oh!:
I didnt see any mention in the cache description page where it mentions the hider painted the rock. Has anyone asked the cacher if they painted the rock or are we all just looking for another reason to P&M? I dunno, something about innocent until...

*laugh* That is exactly what I was thinking... everyone in getting up in arms about this, before we even know if it was that cache hider than vandalised that rock.

If he did, of course I think that it would be wrong - and I'd want the cache archived. But as someone said, the markings may have already been there - and just served as an easy landmark when the cacher hid his stash.

- Toe.

--==< Rubbertoe's WEBCAM >==--

38.2k · September 1, 2002

quote:
One cacher is complaining about graffitti, but turns around and uses it to guide people to a virtual with graffitti. Now if that isn't hypocritical, what is??? I may be losing my grip, but loo

Hey, I don't like the idea of all the housing developments and shopping malls that are quickly covering the little remaining open land around here. But once they're there, if I say "turn right at the Mountian View Estates sign", or "make a left just past Walmart" in my directions, does that make me a hypocrite as well? Using an existing graffiti mark isn't any different.

Not that I equate a housing development or mall with graffiti. I realize that graffiti is illegal.

Then again, the graffiti will be gone in 10-15 years.

Still, the idea of a Geocacher disfiguring an area with graffiti is disturbing. I can't believe there are actually people here who are definding the practice. It is still my hope that the graffiti in quesion was not the work of a Geocacher.

"Life is a daring adventure, or it is nothing" - Helen Keller

September 1, 2002

The visual pains of the flaming aside. I think this is absolutely outstanding:

quote:
To log the visit, you MUST cache in and trash out, take a photo of your filled trash bag (to be sent to Mn. state park systems, who have banned caching) and leave the bag in a trash barrel with the geocaching logo painted on it.

I am not sure what to think of the question in general. I was a little unsettled when I started this sport/activity/obsession because of my belief in "leave nothing but footprints" and geocaching goes a little against that by definition. I think the idea of an easily removable container and a group of people dedicated to "trash out" outweighed those conflicts. I would personally prefer to look for an odd tree or geologic formation as a point of reference than some piece of blight (Wal-Mart included).

I think that if semi-permanent/permanent defacement of PA hunting land was involved in placing the cache, it is unquestionably unacceptable, and more than likely in violation of state law. If it was pre-existing blight like the marker at Bake Oven Knob near the BOK Joy cache..I dunno. If I vacated the woods in protest every time some moron defaced it or broke bottles etc, I think my lazy-boy would have more of an imprint than it already does.

I applaud both your beliefs on the topic and your reaction. Tupperware should never outweigh personal principle. If we outlawed caches near every eyesore, we would have to outlaw half of the 215 area code as well, but that's why I moved out of there.

Last point. I think this is an excellent topic for discussion. If the flames could be kept out of it, it could even prove a productive use of time.

That was almost 3 cents I guess..

September 1, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Waterboy With Wife (www):
It is important to note that this graffiti was written by a premier geocacher.

How do you know the cache owner created graffiti just to place a cache? While I have never met the cache, I have done a number of their caches and they have alwasy been excellent caches and in good taste.

Perhaps an email to the owner asking for clarification may have been in order before accusing someone of a criminal act.

Did you ever think that the marking isn't 911? The location of the cache is PA State Game Lands #211. Maybe the Game Warden placed it there for some unknown reason. Just as plausible as accusing the cacher of becoming a criminal just to place a cache.

September 1, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Waterboy With Wife (www):
4. This cache and the graffiti may be in the watershed that supplies water to Harrisburg, PA. If someone knows more about this I would appreciate it.

5.

Close, but no cigar. You need to go a bit east to be in the watershed.

3k · September 1, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Team BLT:
I was a little unsettled when I started this sport/activity/obsession because of my belief in "leave nothing but footprints" and geocaching goes a little against that by definition.

As far as I can tell, we (meaning all hikers, not just geocachers) are no longer permitted to leave even footprints. The current catch phrase is "Leave No Trace", and the Rangers at National Parks have been instructing park visitors to walk only on "durable surfaces", which they define as man-made surfaces or rocks. It's getting ridiculous ... we heard the same spiel at several parks this summer.

2.5k · September 1, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Waterboy With Wife (www):
3. I personally believe it was done by the geocacher as a non thinking act, although I am not sure. I hope that they will respond to this thread and clarify it.

Go to the cache page and click on the profile to send them an email to make them aware of the thread you started. I'm sure if they were aware of it that they would have responded.

38.2k · September 2, 2002

I noticed that Waterboy's note was deleted from the cache page in question and the cache page was changed to remove the reference to the graffiti.

Was it because the graffiti was not the work of the cache owners, or because the cache owners were ashamed of their vandalism?

I hope it was the former, but am curious as to which.

"Life is a daring adventure, or it is nothing" - Helen Keller

Is graffiti a form of trash?

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