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An archived virtual cache and Why?


rocksnrivers

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I attempted to place a virtual cache in the mountains above my town. It was refused and I personally believe wrongly so. I would appreciate your input on this topic. Please review the archived cache page and read the email discussion below then post your responses.

 

THE CACHE PAGE (PLEASE REVIEW FIRST)

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=91792

 

THE DISCUSSION

GEO

Hi,

Why is this cache a virtual? It seems that a traditional cache could be placed here.

 

ROCKSNRIVERS

Because i didn't see the need for a traditional. This is a cache that is really a FYI so that geocachers will know of a high altitude hut to retreat to if the weather is really bad etc.

 

GEO

Sorry, an "FYI" isn't a cache. The requirements are pretty clear on this.

 

ROCKSNRIVERS

I think that you have made a poor judgement in regards to archiving this cache and I will state my case. In your guidelines it states "A virtual cache is a cache that exists in a form of an object at a location which was already there. Typically, the cache "hider” creates a virtual cache at a location where physical caches are not permitted. The reward for these caches is the location itself and sharing information about your visit." The key phrase here is "The reward for these caches is the location itself and sharing information about your visit". This Hut rests at nearly 12000 feet in an area that most people never see.

 

Your definition also states "There have been virtual caches approved in the past on the basis that "a physical cache could not be appropriately maintained" at the location, " While it is true that a tradititional cache could be placed here it could not be maintained during the winter months as it would be buried under 10 feet of snow.

 

"A virtual cache must be of a physical object that can be referenced through latitude and longitude coordinates. That object should be semi-permanent to permanent. " 420 Hut is just that a high altitude hut (cabin) in the mountains that has been there for over a hundred years.

 

"A virtual cache must be novel, of interest to other players, and have a special historic, community or geocaching quality that sets it apart from everyday subjects." The 420 Hut was built in the early 20th century by a squatter who live the mountain man lifestyle.

 

I truely believe that you have been far too hasty in your decision to archive the cache. It does indeed meet all the requirements and guidelines posted on your website. Which by the way dosupport the FYI. In paragraph 2 of Virtual Cache Posting Guidelines it clearly states "A virtual cache must be novel, of interest to other players, and have a special historic, community or geocaching quality that sets it apart from everyday subjects." If this is not FYI I don't know what is. Perhaps you should review your own guidelines.

One more point if you will...I have logged Virtual caches that are ridiculous and uninteresting to say the least. They were placed only for the sake of placing them. These were approved. 420 Hut not only serves as an item of genuine interest but in a nasty storm on the mountain it could also save a life. Perhaps you should reconsider your hasty decision.

 

GEO

You failed to read, or quote, this paragraph:

Prior to considering a virtual cache, you must have given consideration to the question “why a regular geocache – perhaps a micro or only a log book - couldn’t be placed there?” If there is a good answer, then it may be a valid virtual cache opportunity.

 

ROCKSNRIVERS

Because if I placed a micro cache inside the cabin any GPS signal would be too weak to find it not to mention that this may constitute littering a potentially historic site. And I already addressed the fact that in the winter any traditional cache outside the cabin would be covered by ten feet of snow and I thought people might like to find this cabin during the winter while they were skiing at the area.

 

GEO

What about the traditional cache that you mention on your cache page? Is it covered with snow as well?

There are many caches that are not available during the winter months.

 

ROCKSNRIVERS

You failed to address my first point about potentially littering a historic site. Whatever. it is clear that sadly you fail to see the value in this cache. But let me just say that there are many virtual caches that have been approved that have less value than the one thet I have presented. Too bad for the geocachers of NM that they will likely never get the chance to see this site.

 

Stay Wet

 

[This message was edited by rocksnrivers on September 11, 2003 at 12:24 PM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by CacheRight:

quote:
While it is true that a tradititional cache could be placed here it could not be maintained during the winter months as it would be buried under 10 feet of snow.

A traditional cache can be placed there, therefore a virtual is not appropriate.


 

Yup. If the container is waterproof, 10 feet of snow won't necessitate any cache maintenance, as it probably won't be plundered or otherwise destroyed by the elements.

 

Plot it out so that the easiest access to the cache takes the cachers past the cabin. You'd get the attention to the site that you want.

 

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I would ask for a new review by someone who has been to NM and understands the depth of snow and the alteration of the landscape by the snow.

 

Also, you should have replied that VC's are allowed by the FWS/NFS and traditional caches are often NOT allowed, thus enabling you to put a VC in a location where even a micro would be blocked.

 

Sounds like the area is probably protected by the park service or the BLM. I would use this as an argument against a trad/micro.

 

BTW: I couldn't get the link to your cache page to work.

 

"Half this game is ninety percent mental." Danny Ozark

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Why not stick a micro or small ammo box behind the hut under a rock? Solves the problem, and really isn't that hard to do.

 

My vote is to agree with the moderators on this. When I was getting started (some say I still am), I tried to place a virtual that was a statue near my workplace. Their response was that it could make for a stage in a multi, or a micro nearby. NOW I agree with them, since I've got some ground behind me since. Would make an othewise boring virtual an interesting step instead. (and no, I'm not saying your virtual would be boring.)

 

Joel (joefrog)

 

"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for ye are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!"

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I was also not able to get your link to work so I have limited ability to evaluate the area you wish to place the cache. However, based on what you have presented, I have to agree with the approver/archiver.

 

Your profile shows that you have only found three micros out of the thirty-something traditional caches you've found to date. If you are telling us you can't think of some way to create or hide a micro, you should perhaps go seek out more micros and see some of very creative, well placed, and easily maintained micros people have placed.

 

I think that just getting to the location is 1/2 the fun, the other 1/2 is finding the actual cache!

 

When in trouble, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!

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I wasn't the admin who declined to approve this cache but would have asked the same questions.

 

There are many locations posted as virtuals in the past that would not be today.

 

If I weren't at work and had time to search the forums I'd point you to Jeremy's postings on the subject, but it boils down to the site wanting to return to its roots of being a repository of caches, not a database of points of interest.

 

The truth is, the approvers won't post a location as a virtual if a physical cache can be placed there or nearby. Unless the location is in the center of a US National Park I can't imagine a site at which you couldn't either conceal a microcache (or larger cache) or have as the first stage of a multistage or offset cache hunt with the cache a distance away. That would not only bring people to the place you consider special but give them an actual cache to hunt as well.

 

Regards,

erik - geocaching.com admin

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quote:
Your profile shows that you have only found three micros out of the thirty-something traditional caches you've found to date. If you are telling us you can't think of some way to create or hide a micro, you should perhaps go seek out more micros and see some of very creative, well placed, and easily maintained micros people have placed.


 

It is not that I couldn't have placed one the fact is that it was not necessary or really appropriate. Nevermind my experience.

 

I have to say that I am suprised by the responses.

I truely enjoy Geocaching but I guess that I really don't see the need to deposit more needless containers of trash out in the country when an online log works without the unnecessary litter. Imagine it folks.. there are tens of thousands of little containers scattered throughout the world and these numbers are increasing by leaps and bounds everyday. Many of this caches are placed for no reason other than placing it. Not to mention that 9 times out of ten they are full of trash anyway.

 

thanks for your feedback.

 

Stay Wet

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quote:
Originally posted by bigredmed:

I would ask for a new review by someone who has been to NM and understands the depth of snow and the alteration of the landscape by the snow.


Ok, I'll bite. I'm in New Mexico and have lived in Colorado. I have experienced deep snow and the vast difference in terrain as a result of it.

I would not search for this cache (regular or virtual) in the winter. If it was buried in deep snow, I probably wouldn't find it. If it was a virtual, I wouldn't waste my time.

Sorry, RocksnRivers, if a traditional cache could be placed there then you should place one. Virtuals are very limited by this site as they are not really caches. My kids enjoy finding a box of stuff, valuable or not. They don't get the 'interesting site' thing.

 

texasgeocaching_sm.gif Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness bandbass.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by bigredmed:

Also, you should have replied that VC's are allowed by the FWS/NFS and traditional caches are often NOT allowed, thus enabling you to put a VC in a location where even a micro would be blocked.


Obviously this area is fine for traditional caches since there are so many that are placed close to this hut. The NFS welcomes caches except in certain Wilderness Areas (that's another topic and not to be debated here).

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/nearest.aspx?lat=35.79033&lon=-105.7821

 

The nearest virtual is miles away and was created before the change in the guidelines regarding virtual caches.

 

One thing I'm wondering about is the "historical" nature of this site. If it was that historical I would think it would be off limits for an overnight stay. Huts in the mountains are very common. Should a virtual cache be created for everyone of them? It is almost like having a VC for all the shelters along the Appalachian Trail. According to this site "There are ten backcountry buildings listed on the National Register of Historic Places." The National Register cannot be searched at this time though. I cannot find a thing on the Internet regarding this hut.

 

I think this is an idea for the waypoints web site but it is not a cache.

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quote:
Originally posted by Team GPSaxophone:

quote:
Originally posted by bigredmed:

I would ask for a new review by someone who has been to NM and understands the depth of snow and the alteration of the landscape by the snow.


Ok, I'll bite. I'm in New Mexico and have lived in Colorado. I have experienced deep snow and the vast difference in terrain as a result of it.

I would not search for this cache (regular or virtual) in the winter. If it was buried in deep snow, I probably wouldn't find it. If it was a virtual, I wouldn't waste my time.

Sorry, RocksnRivers, if a traditional cache could be placed there then you should place one. Virtuals are very limited by this site as they are not really caches. My kids enjoy finding a box of stuff, valuable or not. They don't get the 'interesting site' thing.

 


 

The point is that the cache may be in federal land that is off limits to physical caches. The location may be accessible during winter, but a cache would not be. I used to live in NM and the Sandias sure are different with 10 feet of snow on them.

 

It would seem that a micro would be best, but if the feds won't allow them, why not do a VC? It would be a fun thing to look for at anytime of the year and would be nice to know about in the winter.

 

"Half this game is ninety percent mental." Danny Ozark

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Originally posted by rocksnrivers:

 

It is not that I couldn't have placed one the fact is that it was not necessary or really appropriate. Nevermind my experience.

 

When is a cache nessary? Hey, it's just a game!

 

You've never stated why you think a traditional isn't approprate.

 

I truely enjoy Geocaching but I guess that I really don't see the need to deposit more needless containers of trash out in the country when an online log works without the unnecessary litter. Imagine it folks.. there are tens of thousands of little containers scattered throughout the world and these numbers are increasing by leaps and bounds everyday. Many of this caches are placed for no reason other than placing it. Not to mention that 9 times out of ten they are full of trash anyway.

 

Whoo! That has to be the most negitive statement I've ever heard regarding geocaching! Sorry you didn't get the support for your cause you were looking for.

 

So far all, of my cache containers and what I've put in them have been recycled into a game and not placed into a landfill. Remember that famous quote on this board *One mans Trash......*

 

When in trouble, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!

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quote:
There are ten backcountry buildings listed on the National Register of Historic Places.

 

Just because a place is not "registered" does not necessarily mean that it is not historic. I have discovered very old Indian dwellings in this state that do not appear in any documentation that I have been able to find. God forbid that I place a traditional cache in these locations (which I have no intention of doing due to the fragility of the sites), and at this point I don't think that I would even bother to submit a Virtual either as it appears that the prevailing interest in the hobby is mostly about the "cache" and not the location aspect or pure enjoyment of the great outdoors.

 

Stay Wet

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quote:
Originally posted by bigredmed:

The point is that the cache may be in federal land that is off limits to physical caches.


It is not.

http://gorp.away.com/gorp/resource/US_Wilderness_Area/nm.htm

 

You still did not answer my question rocksnrivers. "Huts in the mountains are very common. Should a virtual cache be created for everyone of them?"

 

Virtual caches focus on the unique and not on common items.

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quote:
You still did not answer my question rocksnrivers. "Huts in the mountains are very common. Should a virtual cache be created for everyone of them?"


 

Fair enough. The short answer is no. That is not to say that I would mind if someone did. And in fact I would probably seek them out. Bear in mind that Huts in NM are not that common and this one is the only one in this paticular aspect.

 

Stay Wet

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quote:
Originally posted by rocksnrivers:

 

I have to say that I am suprised by the responses.

I truely enjoy Geocaching but I guess that I really don't see the need to deposit more needless containers of trash out in the country when an online log works without the unnecessary litter. Imagine it folks.. there are tens of thousands of little containers scattered throughout the world and these numbers are increasing by leaps and bounds everyday. Many of this caches are placed for no reason other than placing it. Not to mention that 9 times out of ten they are full of trash anyway.

 


 

If you consider physical geocaches trash, perhaps supporting geocaching by attempting to create a cache isn't the best plan. There are other websites that list interesting waypoints, without the aspect of the game you do not approve of.

 

Ron/yumitori

 

---

 

Remember what the dormouse said...

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quote:
If you consider physical geocaches trash, perhaps supporting geocaching by attempting to create a cache isn't the best plan. There are other websites that list interesting waypoints, without the aspect of the game you do not approve of.


 

Trust me I'm seriouly considering this now that I am coming to the sobering reality that the predominant opinions seem to greatly differ from my own.

 

Stay Wet

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quote:
Originally posted by rocksnrivers:

<snip>it appears that the prevailing interest in the hobby is mostly about the "cache" and not the location aspect or pure enjoyment of the great outdoors.


Since the game is Geocaching, the cache is an essential part of the game. We love finding caches in interesting areas, but the interesting area itself is not this game.

 

texasgeocaching_sm.gif Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness bandbass.gif

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just put a micro cache up there on the mountain top. it's not like you ever have to go there again. TPTB bend the meaning of the rules to fit their needs, they gotta justify there presence somehow. so just to appease TPTB, put a micro with a small log and that is that, you 've satisfied the rules and you never have to go there again if you don't want. if fact, say you put a physical cache up there, get it approved, then edit your description and say that it really is a virtual and there is no physical cache. try that, it's not like they check to see if there is a cache up there.

 

Creativity Within The Bounds Of Conformity

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quote:
Originally posted by rocksnrivers:

Trust me I'm seriouly considering this now that I am coming to the sobering reality that the predominant opinions seem to greatly differ from my own.


 

In your original post, you said "Please review the archived cache page and read the email discussion below then post your responses."

 

If you don't want opinions that differ from your own, perhaps you shouldn't ask for responses.

 

Joel (joefrog)

 

"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for ye are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!"

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quote:
Originally posted by rocksnrivers:

ROCKSNRIVERS

Because i didn't see the need for a traditional. This is a cache that is really a FYI so that geocachers will know of a high altitude hut to retreat to if the weather is really bad etc.


 

Don't see a need for a traditional?

 

You don't have to justify the need for a traditional, or such I say physical, cache. That's what this whole thing is about. That's what this whole hobby was started with and is based on. The whole point of geocaching is to go out and find a physical cache.

 

If there is no need for a physical cache, then there is no need to bring anyone there.

 

Period. End of story.

 

You can very simply and easily satisfy the requirement of a cache by just placing a micro somewhere discreetly inside the hut. If it's available to occupation, then a film canister will not hurt. If you are inviting people to the hut, are you going to tell people to not go in? If not, then people entering and finding the film cannister will not hurt.

 

Put a micro up there and be done with it.

 

...or not.

 

CR

 

72057_2000.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by georapper:

just put a micro cache up there on the mountain top. it's not like you ever have to go there again. TPTB bend the meaning of the rules to fit their needs, they gotta justify there presence somehow. so just to appease TPTB, put a micro with a small log and that is that, you 've satisfied the rules and you never have to go there again if you don't want. if fact, say you put a physical cache up there, get it approved, then edit your description and say that it really is a virtual and there is no physical cache. try that, it's not like they check to see if there is a cache up there.

 


 

Another candidate for finding a different site that is a better fit for your personal views of how this game should be played.

 

At least you're consistent, guy.

 

Ron/yumitori

 

---

 

Remember what the dormouse said...

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quote:
Originally posted by Sissy-n-CR:

You can very simply and easily satisfy the requirement of a cache by just placing a micro somewhere discreetly inside the hut. If it's available to occupation, then a film canister will not hurt. If you are inviting people to the hut, are you going to tell people to not go in? If not, then people entering and finding the film cannister will not hurt.


Exactly. If you want people to visit the hut, what's wrong with putting a logbook inside of it?

 

texasgeocaching_sm.gif Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness bandbass.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by Team GPSaxophone:

quote:
Originally posted by Sissy-n-CR:

You can very simply and easily satisfy the requirement of a cache by just placing a micro somewhere discreetly inside the hut. If it's available to occupation, then a film canister will not hurt. If you are inviting people to the hut, are you going to tell people to not go in? If not, then people entering and finding the film cannister will not hurt.


Exactly. If you want people to visit the hut, what's wrong with putting a logbook inside of it?

 

http://www.texasgeocaching.com Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness http://mywebpages.comcast.net/ihazeltine/bandbass.gif


 

There ya go!

Just put a log book inside the hut. The HUT is the cache! Should be an easy find.

 

"Freedom is a two-way street."

GDAE, Dave

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The one prevailing view that i took away from this thread is that the people in the forums are not interested in virtual caches. They want to find a container full of useless items and do not care about the experience of the journey. That said what is the point? If I placed I log book in the hut i would be doing nothing other than littering an area that doesn't need to be trashed (IMO). I was only trying to share something that no one seems interested in taking advantage of so nevermind. It is probably all for the best anyway in hindsight I would not share my special spots with people who don't appreciate the efforts.

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quote:
The one prevailing view that I took away from this thread is that the people in the forums are not interested in virtual caches. They want to find a container full of useless items and do not care about the experience of the journey. That said what is the point? If I placed I log book in the hut I would be doing nothing other than littering an area that doesn't need to be trashed (IMO). I was only trying to share something that no one seems interested in taking advantage of so nevermind. It is probably all for the best anyway in hindsight I would not share my special spots with people who don't appreciate the efforts.
As an avid hiker I enjoy these kinds of caches. Near where I live there are three mountain peaks you can hike to in one day. I have caches on two of these peaks and wanted to place a virtual on the third peak because it already has three ammo cans on the summit which house the peak registers. I didn’t feel the need to add a 4th ammo can so I made it a virtual. It was also declined. I like virtual caches because I know it will be there and I have learned some very interesting local history.

 

Lake Tahoe Geocacher

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quote:
Originally posted by rocksnrivers:

The one prevailing view that i took away from this thread is that the people in the forums are not interested in virtual caches. They want to find a container full of useless items and do not care about the experience of the journey. That said what is the point? If I placed I log book in the hut i would be doing nothing other than littering an area that doesn't need to be trashed (IMO). I was only trying to share something that no one seems interested in taking advantage of so nevermind. It is probably all for the best anyway in hindsight I would not share my special spots with people who don't appreciate the efforts.


 

It's not that people aren't interested in seeing historical locations or the journey to get to places. It's just that many believe (as I do) that the sport of geocaching should be undertaking a journey which at the end should be a physical cache. (Hence the name.)

 

I don't doubt the worthwhileness of the hut nor it's historical significance. If you want people to see it, however, this may not be the way to go about it. You're concerned about "littering" an area with a micro. If you think that physical caches are merely litter, then you may be playing the wrong game. Might I suggest waypoints.org instead? It's essentially a huge database of Virtuals for you to seek out and register.

 

You posted this topic to get opinions and you got them. Please don't disparage the whole group just because most of the people here don't agree with you. You certainly have the right to express you opinion, but when few agree with you, it may be a sign that it's time to back down...

 

- - - - -

Uh oh...

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quote:
Originally posted by Cheesehead Dave:

quote:
Originally posted by rocksnrivers:

The one prevailing view that i took away from this thread is that the people in the forums are not interested in virtual caches. They want to find a container full of useless items and do not care about the experience of the journey. That said what is the point? If I placed I log book in the hut i would be doing nothing other than littering an area that doesn't need to be trashed (IMO). I was only trying to share something that no one seems interested in taking advantage of so nevermind. It is probably all for the best anyway in hindsight I would not share my special spots with people who don't appreciate the efforts.


 

It's not that people aren't interested in seeing historical locations or the journey to get to places. It's just that many believe (as I do) that the sport of geocaching should be undertaking a journey which at the end should be a physical cache. (Hence the name.)

 

I don't doubt the worthwhileness of the hut nor it's historical significance. If you want people to see it, however, this may not be the way to go about it. You're concerned about "littering" an area with a micro. If you think that physical caches are merely litter, then you may be playing the wrong game. Might I suggest http://www.waypoint.org/ instead? It's essentially a huge database of Virtuals for you to seek out and register.

 

You posted this topic to get opinions and you got them. Please don't disparage the whole group just because most of the people here don't agree with you. You certainly have the right to express you opinion, but when few agree with you, it may be a sign that it's time to back down...


I actually would like to take this a step further. I made two sentences bold above. Cheesehead Dave just about nailed it. To me, if you think that physical caches are merely litter, then you may be playing the game wrong, or you may not understand how to play it properly. If you place a cache you are suppose to maintain it. If you place a traditional cache and feel that you cannot maintain it properly then yes you are littering. If that is the case then you should only find caches in these areas where you cannot maintain a cache properly. If you can maintain a cache by visiting it regularly at this location, then you are not littering. If you maintain a cache properly then:

1. It will remain in place and people will enjoy your hidden cache. You check it regularly and it is not trash.

2. It may fall in disrepair, at which point you can remove it and archive it or you can fix it and keep it going. It is not trash.

3. It gets stolen, and it would not be trash since it is gone.

 

Don't be discouraged or misinterpret the game. Your location does look like a nice place. If I were there I would hike to it and the other traditional caches in the area. The big fun for me is reading the logbook and signing it. I even had a special self-inking stamp made after I saw the one the cachew-nut has. It is a bummer when I get to a virtual because I can't use my new stamp! I visit virtuals and have created virtuals, but I agree that it was time to raise the bar on virtuals.

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quote:
Originally posted by rocksnrivers:

Look I get it you people don't want virtuals!


 

No, a number of folks here don't want virtuals when a physical cache is possible.

 

Not the same thing at all. The system works reasonably well when you don't upset over it not being exactly what you want, and recognize it's what the site designers and owners want.

 

Ron/yumitori

 

---

 

Remember what the dormouse said...

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quote:
Originally posted by rocksnrivers:

Look I get it you people don't want virtuals!


 

I don't know about TPTB but I like doing virtuals - especially ones combined with a good hike. (Most of the virtuals around here are historic markers in small urban parks or plaques on the side of an old building). However, this is a geocaching website. If a physical cache can be placed nearby then I can see archiving the virtual. I your case, you want to let hikers know about this hut. You can place a cache further up the trail from the hut and say "on your way you will pass a hut" - voila! you've let people know about the hut. You can even put the coordinates in the cache description. Of course, if the hut were in a National Park or someother place where physical caches are not allowed you might have a reason to make this a virtual.

 

東西南北

Why do I always find it in the last place I look?

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Please don't get too upset, or take the virtual cache thing personal. Geocaching is just a game, and doesn't have to be the only game you play, or all encompassing for all aspects of life. The game originated in trying to find hidden things, often placed in great locations, but with the emphasis on using a GPS unit to find an object. While many would like for it to become a POI database of sorts that includes every interesting, and not so interesting spot on the planet, I personally have no problem with letting it stay as it is "Geocaching"

 

For me, Geocaching doesn't account for even 1/4th of my GPS usage. I find many interesting locations on assorted hiking, peak bagging, backpacking etc. forums. This is where I find and share "virtual" type locations, and to me it seems the most appropriate forum for that sort of stuff. Some you even log a trip report on such as the many on-line peak bagging, or backpacking registers. I also often just find interesting looking spots on the map, download them into my receiver, and head out for adventure. Granted, you don't get to log that you went there on-line, but does it really matter? Rather than get worked up about virtuals, just take geocaching for what it is, and expand into some of the other great outdoor activities available.

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quote:
They want to find a container full of useless items and do not care about the experience of the journey. That said what is the point? If I placed I log book in the hut i would be doing nothing other than littering an area that doesn't need to be trashed (IMO). I was only trying to share something that no one seems interested in taking advantage of so nevermind. It is probably all for the best anyway in hindsight I would not share my special spots with people who don't appreciate the efforts.

 

The log book is not litter. It is a record of visits to the site. I often sit at a cache and read the log entries. They are much different than the ones you find online. Some are rather profound, others are pretty darn funny! For me the hike, the hunt, AND the reading of the log all are part of the fun. To consider the log book, a vital part of the game as litter is a bit much dont you think? Would you consider a map of the area left for others to reference litter?

 

How about this idea-

 

Make a small survival kit and place it inside the hut. An ammo box would work well. icon_smile.gif Add a log book inside the kit. Ask visitors to add survival items to the kit when they visit as well as make an entry in the log book.

 

This would both create a cache at the site as well as provide life saving items in the hut in case someone is ever there and in need of some emergency supplies. You are providing a commnity service as well as a cache. Maybe even save a life someday.

 

Just a thought.

 

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I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

N61.12.041 W149.43.734

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Just some observations, but there no longer seems to be a day go by without someone complaining or posting about how their virtual was denied. I do think that rocksnrivers made some very valid points, based on the current guidelines, as to why his virtual should be allowed. Perhaps these guidelines should be changed, as they do seem very open to interpretation, as many obviously don't get the point as to why their virtuals are denied...obviously we have a problem. A good thing to put up in bold at the beginning is to say that Virtuals are only allowed where a physical could absolutely not be placed, and state that this would take presidence over anything else. Or even just do a moretorium on Virtuals like we did with Locationless caches. And remember, most people do not read the forums, as has been stated many times.

 

As a personal note, I personaly do like virtuals, and I would like to see more of them, as most of very informative and take some brainwork, but I definately prefer physicals too. It is good to have a combination of both to add to variety.

 

georapper, you are a genious! Obviously smarter than most for thinking of your workaround, which I too have thought of. Feel free to apply to mensa.

 

And lastly, geocaching I believe should be a fun sport and if something very minor just brings a smile to one person's face, then I stronly believe that it was worth it. No one should be belittled for their opinions.

 

http://ca.geocities.com/geocachingcanada

http://ca.geocities.com/rsab2100/pond.html

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