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Deer Valley Rock Art Center and General Arizona Warning


Bryan
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Those rocks on the trail are nothing but INVITING. They have that come hither look. icon_biggrin.gif

Not touching those rocks would be like saying not to touch pebbles in the pathway. The rocks are not separate from the trail: not even a firring strip of wood on the ground to indicate 'stay away'.

 

Now I have two questions for you, WhereRWee: 1) Do you have a picture of some other glyphs that are behind a barrier and would indicate that those were definitely off limits?

2) Why do you keep apologizing? You seem to be admitting to some sort of mistake that was ALL your fault.

 

don

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This went out from me to Dr. Welsh today.

 

quote:
The actions of one of your staff members in "bullying" geocaching.com into removing a virtual cache indicate a completely inappropriate attitude and a lack of understanding. I would have expected better from academicians.

 

A "virtual cache" is nothing more than a posted set of geographic coordinates. Your organization has no right or jurisdiction to permit or prohibit the posting of geographic coordinates, photographs, or anything else on a public web site.

 

As for the petroglyphs, I would expect an organization whose primary mission is preservation to place delicate structures behind appropriate barriers to prevent touching. As has been observed many times, the rock shown in the "beyond offensive" photograph seems to be placed in such a way as to encourage touching. Subsequent photographs show that this happens with regularity. To focus attention on one geocacher (a child!) and respond with such vitriol is surely not the proper course.

 

I hope that, at the very least, you will deal with your errant associate and educate her on proper techniques and attitudes for dealing with the public. In an ideal world, I would also find an apology to the geocaching community quite appropriate, for the insulting and ill-advised behavior of your associate.

 

Thank you for your time.


 

--

Scott Johnson (ScottJ)

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Petroglyph National Park is located here in New Mexico. I live about 4 miles from it. What I don't understand is why we have parks to memorialize graffiti that has been around for a long time. If I painted on a rock, I would be fined or arrested or both. I would probably have to do community service including repairing the damage. How about erasing the graffiti commonly known as petroglyphs?

 

--------------------------------------------

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quote:
Originally posted by Byron & Anne:

My issue has to do with the right of free speech. The right to publish the geographic coordinates of this park is what this person has tried to stop. That is clearly _WRONG_. Threaten leagal actions in an attempt to prohibit the right of free speech is even worse. All of this is much worse than somebody touching rocks.

 

I think the folks at geocaching.com have been way too _nice_ on this issue.

 

Byron


 

I'd have to agree. I think in this case it is clear that they are attempting to impede our right to free speech. Which is the right to post the coordinates of a "publicly owned", publicly accessible place. They do not own the coordinates, or even the land, or the petroglyphs.

 

My opinion is, put the virutal back up, and let them sue. When the courts rule in our favor then we have a legal precedence and this sort of thing won't happen again. I'm guessing we have enough geocachers who are willing to front some money for a defense lawyer.

 

BTW, this cache is of particular interest to me as I have a similar cache in northern california. It is a multi-stage virtual that ends at a petroglyph site (I just ruined the ending of it for people who want to do it). Luckily the glyphs there are fairly well protected behind a cyclone fence, but I suppose if they wanted to they could complain.

 

My 2 cents or more

 

----

Duct tape is like the Force. It has a light side and a dark side, and it holds the universe together.

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I have went ahead and called the DVRAC, which is 1/4 mile from my house.

 

They told me I was the first to call or otherwise meet with them and they asked that I only seek permission.

 

I was told that the management company (this area is all flood controlled area) has passed some sort of rule that requires written permission for a cache, virtual or otherwise.

 

The person I spoke with was very polite and helpful and assured me that permission would be granted when asked.

 

I have done this and explained how this would impact them and how I enjoy the sport etc.

 

As far as the cache on the dam has it been removed? I can attest that it is private land and well posted with the fines noted.

 

Another question - when I get permission to place a virtual there can I just post that up to the old cache or do I need to request a new cache.

 

So regardless of the rest and who said what the cache may very well get approved by the people that own the land and we can still have our sport as we want it.

 

I have also request any other information she could give me for the other caches in the area that may be on the flood control land. But the one on the dam is just wrong unless it can be access from the model airport or something (which I frequent).

If it isnt ON the dam then permission can be obtained the same way I am from the flood control people (details to follow)

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quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:

Why would anybody need permission to place a virtual cache?

 

_A government that is big enough to give you all you want is big enough to take it all away._ -Barry Goldwater

 


Brian - I realize you are an archeologist (so would probably be conservative on this issue) and I dont want to start an argument, but this is my understanding:

This is quoted from the rules of this site:

 

"You are ultimately responsible for the cache so make sure you know the rules for the area where your cache is being placed."

 

So if I place a cache (virtual or not) and there is a rule by the person leasing or governing that land (NPS, flood control, etc) then dont I have to jump those hoops?

 

In this particular case I dont see why not to obtain permission, but overall I think it is best to just follow the rules, whatever they are, or just dont post the cache.

 

I cant wait for the "regulars" to jump all over this one.

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I think it was the principle of the thing we were all interested in maintaining. That principle being "there is nothing to ask permission for if we are not PLACING anything physical at the site." Therefore, it is like asking if we can please be allowed to breath. LOL.

 

If we start giving in to those that make us ask permission to use our first admendment rights to free speech where does it end? I am free to make a website posting coordinates to my favorite places and telling everyone what the site is and what is there, true? That is all a virtual cache is. I do not have to ask permission to tell you about the site, or what I thought was interesting about the site, or where it is, so why would I have to ask permission to tell anyone who was interested in looking at my site and then going there based on my recommendation?

 

It's just an interesting intelectual exercise that really makes no difference in the long run, but I hate to see us cave on this issue so soon without more discourse with the powers that be. We really ought to come to some kind of conclusion on how this is going to be handled, not just in this case, but in future cases, before conceeding defeat. ( I know, "defeat" is not necessarily the best word..LOL).

 

Otherwise, isn't this fun?????

 

icon_biggrin.gificon_biggrin.gificon_biggrin.gif

 

texasgeocaching_sm.gif

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

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quote:
Originally posted by jasonhuber:

quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:

Why would anybody need permission to place a virtual cache?

 


Brian - I realize you are an archeologist (so would probably be conservative on this issue) and I dont want to start an argument, but this is my understanding:

This is quoted from the rules of this site:

 

"You are ultimately responsible for the cache so make sure you know the rules for the area where your cache is being placed."

 

So if I place a cache (virtual or not) and there is a rule by the person leasing or governing that land (NPS, flood control, etc) then dont I have to jump those hoops?


 

On the rules issue, I believe "placed" here refers to physical caches, not virtuals, although I am sure we can nitpik that to death as well...lol.

 

Off to the races!!!!

 

icon_biggrin.gificon_biggrin.gificon_biggrin.gif

 

texasgeocaching_sm.gif

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

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quote:
Originally posted by jasonhuber:

So regardless of the rest and who said what the cache may very well get approved by the people that own the land and we can still have our sport as we want it.


 

Huh, that's funny. I thought that had already happened. As PUBLIC land, it was approved by the people that own the land when the Groundspeak admins, being of the public, approved it.

 

That is unless I misread all this and it is actually private land, in which case, please ignore this and my previous post too.

 

----

Duct tape is like the Force. It has a light side and a dark side, and it holds the universe together.

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quote:
Originally posted by jasonhuber:

So if I place a cache (virtual or not) and there is a rule by the person leasing or governing that land (NPS, flood control, etc) then dont I have to jump those hoops?


 

No.

 

Think of placing a virtual cache this way - I stand on the street, and point my finger at you.

 

You might not LIKE having my finger pointed at you -- it might bring unwelcome attention, or it might embarrass you -- it might even inspire others to do illegal things to you.

 

You might ask me not to point my finger at you, and if you ask me nicely enough and have a good enough reason, I might stop. However, I don't need to ask your permission to point my finger at you, and you have no legal right to stop me.

 

A virtual cache is a reference to a point on the earth's surface, just as is the little box on the USGS topo map that represents my house. I didn't give anyone permission to draw my house on a topo map. Under the DVRAC's rules, I should be able to call up the USGS and have my house removed! Ridiculous.

 

--

Scott Johnson (ScottJ)

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quote:
Originally posted by CloneZone:

And excuse me if this was posted already (this is a long thread), but what if the employee in question is merely discouraging this to make his/her job easier? That is, reducing the number of the public he/she may have to deal with? icon_confused.gif


 

Possible, but their website states that they received 15,000 visitors last year, the 20 or 30 geocachers that the virtual would bring over a year's time wouldn't even be noticed, which is why her statement about the geocaching website not being the type of PR they wanted (and its implication that 'our kind' were not welcomed at the park) was so ridiculous.

 

Windrose

 

A mind stretched by a new idea can never go back to its original dimensions.Oliver Wendell Holmes

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quote:
Originally posted by ScottJ:

 

You might ask me not to point my finger at you, and if you ask me nicely enough and have a good enough reason, I might stop. However, I don't need to ask your permission to point my finger at you, and you have no legal right to stop me.

 


 

Pointing fingers is rude.

 

What is your lat/lon? Ill give you a bearing and you can point away... icon_smile.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by jasonhuber:

(let me correct myself) the people that MANAGE the land. Not OWN - we own the land, sorry about that.


 

Much better. Now repeat to yourself 10 times "We are the public in public lands" icon_wink.gif

 

----

Duct tape is like the Force. It has a light side and a dark side, and it holds the universe together.

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So this rock the petroglyph is on has heavy scarring on it, and they are worried about someone touching it? I would think between the hot sun and the monsoon rains hitting this rock (assuming it is outside), the "finger-oil" would be a non-issue. Every GPS user I have ever met has respect for the outdoors and the history of such places. I am tempted to go there for the day and see how many non-GPS people touch that rock. The State of Arizona is funny like this, they are keeping MANY sites secret from the public for "preservation". But what good is a thing if it is not shared? Hide the Mona Lisa from all, and it is worthless. I for one would love to see more of these hidden places and/or petroglyphs and if I find them while I wander this desert, you better believe I am going to list them as a virtual cache. They don't like it? Come and get me, then.....

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I think it’s just a big lack of communication between cachers and gov or park officials ect. She probably thought it is just a bunch of kids and that caching sends these "kids" to a place to play, and the picture made up her mind for her.

 

I and two other cachers were at a National Historic Site searching out a virtual that was right on a trail and not off the beaten path of this place(GC1EE3), to get there you walk right by the center. As we were heading back up to the parking lot after finding the virtual a worker stopped us and asked what it is that we were doing (in a very nice way) she was curious and could tell that we were not being mischief, so we told her about geocaching and she welcomed us (The geocaching community) she told us a lot about the tombstone that was the virtual. I don't know if the cache owner talked to the people in the center about adding (you can't "Place" a virtual) the virtual.

 

A cacher that is wanting to add a virtual in a place like this really needs to stop at the office and talk to the manager or someone that is in charge, not just someone that is working the counter and explain to them what geocaching is about, a lot of people that are ignorant on the subject thinks that geocaching has something to do with digging, if you could also take that person out with you to the place that you are planning on using as your virtual and show them how you mark the spot, as in not with something hidden in the ground or whatever but that the satellites mark your coordinates. I think people/governments/rangers etc would lighten up on us, they think that we are a bunch of people "sneaking around" looking for "buried" treasure.

 

Another place we went to yesterday had 2 caches hidden on this private land, it is a large Chapel (GC4902) with a lot of acres and plenty of wooded area but the cache owner contacted the owner of this place and asked for permission and explained what it is all about and explained that it is a family (for the most part) sport and would also bring people to his Chapel for the tours. So he gave his permission and liked the ideal.

 

So to the point at hand! We as a group need to START a "legal matter" in this, it is called "freedom of speech" and geocaching.com does NOT have to remove the virtual from its site. They can NOT tell us that we can't go there it is a public place! We need to stand up for our rights not just as geocachers but as human beings! Wait we don't live in Iraq, do we?

 

It wouldn't be bad but this lady doesn't know how to handle this situation, and the way she did, she should not be the person that is in charge of their "PR"

 

Sorry to get off on a rant there, but I hate people like that. icon_mad.gif

 

The problem with the gene pool is that there is no lifeguard.

 

[This message was edited by Roadster on March 09, 2003 at 07:00 AM.]

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Take this above her head, there is someone that is above her, find out who to contact and call them personally and describe what has happened and report her rudeness about the situation.

 

It's always so much fun to go over a person’s head, like looking at the expression on a persons face when you ask for the management. icon_biggrin.gif

 

The problem with the gene pool is that there is no lifeguard.

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I know,,,,,I'm dredging up old stuff....but I just found this while doing a search.....I understand the argument of permission granted before placing a cache....BUT......no cache was placed. This is a virtural....meaning no physical cache.....only a spot to see. Groundspeak was under no obligation to remove it from the web-site and personally, I think battles like this should be taken on.......What they are saying is.....people can come visit....except Geo-cachers. Fine, so we backed down.....who will it be next....people from New York are not welcome.....blacks, whites, latinos? No physical cache was placed....take the offensive photo out.....if the park wants to press charges against the person who touched the rock....they had access to the photo and shame on the foolishness of the one that posted it......

 

Earth First!!! We'll cache the other planets later!!

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Northern Lights, you might have missed the numerous posts here that noted the rock in the "offending" photo was in the middle of the trail...not in a protected area and some visitors actually have been encouraged to touch it by the staff.

 

As far as the rest of your statement, I'm in full agreement.

 

"An appeaser is one who keeps feeding a crocodile-hoping it will eat him last" -Winston Churchill

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Wow! This topic certainly had us busy for a bit! Has anyone made any contact with the museum?

 

In a note that will make many people shudder, I like Jason, live down the road from the museum. I remember the days BEFORE the museum, when the area was just Adobe Dam and fenced off for our protection.

 

Being kids, we'd go hang out in the off-limits areas. Visitors to the museum might note it looks like a black building set on top of that floodgate. Because of local ignorance about heiroglyphics vs. petroglyphs, the symbols put into the floodgate earned it the title "The Egyptian Tunnel." It goes right through the dam to the other side.

 

Yes, I have traversed the Egyptian Tunnel.

 

We'd also heard about the petroglyphs, but never found them until a friend and I were climbing straight over the mountain to get to the other side and found them under us. Touching the damaged rock nothing! We clambered up over them.

 

On that hike, we found an angry rattlesnake-- a sign from nature, displeased with our trespass? On subsequent visits, I found a nest of owls up above the outcropping of rocks where the glyphs are, and they defended their nest by divebombing me and smacking me on the back of the head! The second time I went back with a shallow head wound that bled a lot and scared some kids with the gore.

 

After that, I didn't climb on the rocks any more.

 

I also interviewed a member of the staff as part of a writing project I worked on while attending ASU West.

 

There go. I apologize for being a stupid kid at the time but I thought it might some actions in perspective. Maybe the DVRAC could invest in some security owls-- they made a believer of me!

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Northern-Lights and some others had comments like this "Groundspeak was under no obligation to remove it from the web-site and personally, I think battles like this should be taken on"

 

While I totally agree with this, it's easy for me to think that since it's not going to be my checking account that gets emptied by the lawyers on this one. ProBono anyone icon_smile.gif

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There's a certain point when you look at a cause (posting a link to a point of interest - not really the original intent of geocaching) and asking yourself, "should I invest my time in defending this?" You then, briefly, look at the pros and cons:

 

Pros

 

  • Inflating your chest and proclaiming "Ha! I'm right. And I was proud to defend such a noble cause!"

  • Well, that's basically it.

Cons

  • Being subjected to irrational boneheaded arguments daily, being threatened with lawsuits, calling the office, and otherwise harassing you about a concept someone can't completely get their mind around.

  • Rinse, wash, repeat.

 

You have to pick your fights. This one wasn't worth the effort. I'll wait for something more fun, like the right to post cave listings online.

 

frog.gif Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location™

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Ever seen a stuffed animal on display, like a mountain lion, or a bear. We all have, at museums, taxidermys, hunting supply stores. Now what is the natural tendency for any human...to touch it. Humans are naturally inquisitive, we have a desire to learn, and we use all of our senses to better understand the world. We were even taught in school that way. Remember our teachers passing items around the classroom for students to examine. Touching is a key element in learning. I guarantee if there is no sign on a stuffed cougar that says...DO NOT TOUCH...90% of the time, people will touch it. It's no different with the petroglyph. And unless the managers at the Center are ignorant, they ought to know that by placing the one rock in the middle of the pathway with no barrier or sign that says...DO NOT TOUCH....people will touch it. Perhaps they are using this particular rock as bait. They wait for some visitor to touch it and then slap a fine on them. I could understand the Center's judgment if the girl's parents allowed their daughter to walk past a barrier, they ignored the keep out and do not touch signs, allowed her to climb on a petroglyph rock for a photo. But this was not the case. What happened was really harmless. The Center has only themselves to blame. If that particular rock was really that unique or special, it wouldn't have been placed where it was....the middle of a walking path. Just waiting to hear that the Center bans all birds from the site because they catch one sitting on the rock taking a crap. I bet those acids would do more harm to the petroglyph than someones fingerprints.

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I am distressed that some cachers are going to bypass Arizona. There are many beautiful petroglyphs all over Arizona that you can visit for free. Some are even virtual caches.

I looked at 4 maps and none of the 4 had blank spots on them.....DVRAC showed up on every one. I hope the map printers got permission first. BUT...it looks like the cat is out of the bag. They are marked on the maps and Geocachers know where they are. If they can't get the map makers to reprint the maps and if they can't get their coordinates changed (who would you call?) they might have to move and keep that new location a secret.

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I've been reading through this post for over an hour and didn't realize it was so old. I see on WhereRWee's profile that this cache along with several others are still disabled. I've been reading this like a book and now I have the last page missing!.....:D This post peaked my interest because of a geocache my daughters and I stopped off at last week in E. WA. The pictographs were in a interpretive center and surrounded by a heavy wired in enclosure. Kids will be kids and to place pictographs unprotected along a walking trail is asking for touching. Were any policies changed after this post or signs put up near this rock?.....I was hoping for a picture of the "person" bleeding all over her prescious rock, but that would be asking too much!.... :blink:

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I visited this place a few months ago, and guess what? They have a rope in front of the petroglyph rock that caused such a stir! (I am not sure if there was one at the time the offending picture was taken, but there is one NOW.) Additionally, there are signs posted in several places stating not to touch the rocks.

Actually, this "museum" was a bit disappointing. For the $6 entrance fee, I expected to see a lot more glyphs...in fact, the "Peralta Trail Balancing Rock" Virtual Cache leads you to a LOT MORE, up close and personal.

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Same *hit Different State:<BR>I also am embroiled in a controversy with the local regulatory agency of the county parks about placement of virtuals.  <BR>They say we didn't ask permission to place a virtual on their properties

Harrumph. Just apologize, and tell them that if they don't like it, you'll graciously never bother them ever again and they are perfectly welcome to confiscate the virtual right off their property to do with as they wish! They'll be hunting for it for WEEKS! :rolleyes:

Edited by Sparrowhawk
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Someone with a digital camera and some spare time on their hands ought to sit at the park during a full day and photograph "offensive" actions from park visitors occuring at the open boulder in question. Then politely submit these photos to "Mrs. I don't want this kind of PR" and see if she wants to address the CLASS of people in the photos. We could go from geohating to a civil rights issue REAL FAST...

 

To the original cache owner- your posts were excellent and it is nice to read your side of the story. I hope this can be resolved in a positive way somehow for all parties involved.

Edited by westernskies
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In case you guys don't see the other simelar topic, I'd like to cut and paste this here. I think I've made a valid point that other people have missed.

And, you know, if I haven't, feel free to discuss this with me further.

 

 

My two (or more) cents worth.

 

First and foremost, I have to say thank you to the people who are chosing to handle this - and any other such - situation with well written letters that are intelligent and throuroughly thought out. Intelligence solves more than slander or a hot temper any day.

 

I fully agree that it is well within our rights to put virtual caches anywhere we so chose to without permission - so long as the location is not a danger to us and is on public property. If it is on private property, then yes, you must ask permission.

 

However, with that said, I must also ask this. If you didn't geocache and knew nothing of it, what would you think was going on if someone was walking around with something in their hand, staring at it intently... No, I don't believe we need to ask permission, but perhaps it is a good idea to go up to the director of these such places and explain what we are doing so that it doesn't cause problems like the ones mentioned.

 

It's not that hard to say, "Excuse me, Mr. Smith, my name is Mandi and I belong to a website called GeoCaching.com. I have submitted this wonderful weed-infested parking lot as a location of a virtual cache. In GeoCaching, people are given exact latitude and longitude coordinates of a specific location. In regular caches, something is hidden at the spot of the coordinates. However, since this cache is set up as a virtual, there will be nothing hidden at this site. The coordinates and the cache posting only serve as a high-tech invitation to visit this site. What I have done is the same as calling a friend on the phone and telling them that they have to check out the weed-infested parking lot at 123 Sesame Street. I assure you that these cachers will cause no harm to the property."

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