Conscientious Caching

January 8, 2003

I was hunting down a mulit-cache in my area looking for the next set of coordinates. In other multis I've hunted, the coordinates are usually on a metal or plastic tag, a label, or a film cannister; something that can be removed if it were needed to be or archived. The idea being that every cache is temporary, and can be removed.

On this last cache, the coordinates were written in permanent marker on the sign of a power pole, and right on the pole itself; a private utility owned property. I was very upset to see this because it really appears to be no different than graffitti, and we as geocachers are then defacing property. A tag can at least be removed, this marker cannot...and it could be traced back to Geocaching.

We cache with the mantra, "Cache In, Trash Out". This cache leaves a permanent record, visual litter, how do I trash that out? Long after this cache is archived, the remains of it will be around.

I am considering contacting the cache owner, but wanted to get a feel from the brain trust as to whether my thinking is out of line. Should I contact the owner and get their angle, should I ask that this cache be archived because it goes against Geocaching ideals, or should I give it a rest? I'd like to hear what others think on this.

2.6k · January 8, 2003

This has been discussed before. I remember mixed responses to the use of permanent markers.

I'm not completely opposed. Some people have gained permission for the use of a marker.

Most permanent marker can be cleaned off with rubbing alcohol.

I do think that the markings should be completely out of view.

The use of a marker does make you think of graffiti when you see it.

If you do not extend your expectations unto others, you will not be disappointed by the stupid things they do.

Mokita!

5.9k · January 8, 2003

Nothing is permanent. As long as it’s not HUGE or obvious, leave it. Live and breathe and have your being as you move about in the firmament. All things are temporary.

January 8, 2003

I would also have to agree that writing on the pole with permanent marker is inappropriate and is geocaching graffiti. Behavior like that is what adds fuel to the fire with some agencies that ban or want to ban geocaching in their areas. We need to maintain high standards and show the public that geocachers are responsible members of the community. I would ask that this cache be archived.

There's no present. There's only the immediate future and the recent past.

January 8, 2003

I agree. Without permission it is nothing more then graffiti.

Anyone who is not a Geocacher would see it as graffiti.

[This message was edited by Liberto on January 08, 2003 at 01:19 PM.]

January 8, 2003

Liberto and Tahoe Joe..I agree with you. We as geocachers have enough trouble finding parks and park managers and rangers who are gracious enough to allow us to drop a cache in their park. Then for a small minority to wreck that by defacing property is a "black mark" on our ethical power pole.

Leave No Trace has become very much an ideal in outdoor activities, and we should be no different. This marker HAS left a trace. It leaves a statement to others that we as geocachers are not afraid to tromp over the delicate flora, mark up your lonely, forgotten pole, disregard your rights as a property owner. Yes, all things are temporary, take the radioactivity of Uranium 235. I may not be around, but it will go away sometime.

Is leaving a dog tag etched with coordinates behind leaving a trace? Yes it is, but I can go back this afternoon and remove it, and no one would know. This marker will stay there.

I guess I feel there were many other methods available to cachers to leave coordinates somewhere, without defacing property.

5.9k · January 8, 2003

Is the mark causing any measurable harm? NO

Is it really any of our business? NO

How can a mark cause the game of geocaching to suffer? How would anybody know what the mark means? Where is the connection between a bunch of numbers on the back of a sign and geocaching?

Why do people still think that their opinion is the right and only opinion? Why is there always somebody so quick to look down their nose at people they consider intellectually inferior, and attempt to impart their asinine ideas upon them?

Barely a month goes by and here comes another holier-than-thou geocacher who saw something they didn’t like, trying to fink some poor cacher out to the forum. If you don’t like marks on poles and signs, don’t hunt that cache! Why do you feel like you have to meddle with another’s cache? I’m not trying to get in your face, but your opinion is just that, an opinion. Tell a cop that you saw someone writing tiny numbers on the bottom of a phone pole and what will he do? He’ll in all likelihood tell you to go home and worry about bigger things. That’s what I said, live and breathe and have your being, worry about the real things. God knows there’s plenty of them.

Sheesh……

1.6k · January 8, 2003

Most of the time the whole idea of geocaching is to be discrete. Basically, we don't want people to plunder our caches. Generally, we don't mind explaining what we are doing to a passerby depending on how close we are to the cache, etc. etc.

Thereby, we inherently want our markings to be obscure to the general population. Did you happen to take a pic of this pole to show us?

Small letters that you have to be within a few feet to read, much less make out what they are, shouldn't be too bad. Huge black letters you can read 50' away is quite another.

Basically, I feel removable lettering that most people will never see is quite alright. If it doesn't detract from people's lives, cause harm, is an eye sore, what have you, then it should be alright. Hell, every Where's George bill has something written on it.

CR

38.2k · January 8, 2003

I think if someone spray painted coordinates on a sign, post, guardrail, etc... that would be indefensible.

But I don't see a problem using a sharpie to pencil in a tiny set of coordinates in an inconspicuious spot on the back of a post.

"Paternalism is the greatist despotism" - Emmanual Kant

January 8, 2003

I don't like the idea, isn't it illegal anyway (defacing private property)? It's certainly rude, to me and us, as it's representational of the rest of us and how we behave.

It also seems a lame way out, why not place an appropriate container? I'd be bummed if I came across that on a multicache.

This ranks right up there with carving the coordinates into a living tree in someone's front yard or spray painting the coordinates on a wall!

Randy

(new enough to not contribute to the prior discussion)

January 8, 2003

A recently placed virtual in our area was going to have something written on the back of the Hwy Dept sign (GCC063), until the group overseeing the virtual found that the Hwy dept already had a code back there in sharpie. So they used that one instead! If the Hwy Dept writes codes in sharpie, really big and circled and everything, I am sure that most passersby won't know that Your code is for something else. I could read the sharpie code from 10 feet away, in the dark with a flashlight. And it wasn't "offical" handwriting either, just someone with a pen in a hurry to # the sign for some reason.

My point is, as long as you don't be blatant about it, and don't ust 26 inch font, and don't write on the front of the sign, or over any other writing back there, go ahead. Use common sense, and you never know, sometimes the codes on the back will work as good as what you had planned.

-Jennifer

Nothing is really work unless you would rather be doing something else. (JM Barrie)

5.9k · January 8, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by RJFerret:
This ranks right up there with carving the coordinates into a living tree in someone's front yard or spray painting the coordinates on a wall!

Huh!?!?!

You are equating tiny numbers or letters on the unused side of a sign or the bottom of the sign post with, carving into a living tree in somebody's front yard? That sort of brilliance is often under appreciated by people who use their brains. Thank you.

3k · January 8, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by beggymike14:
Liberto and Tahoe Joe..I agree with you. We as geocachers have enough trouble finding parks and park managers and rangers who are gracious enough to allow us to drop a cache in their park.

This has been brought up before. It is our park. Our taxes pay for the purchase and maintenance of it. The park management does not own it. They manage it for us. We pay them.

Cache you later,

Planet

"To err is human, to forgive....$5.00"

January 9, 2003

quote:
This has been brought up before. It is our park. Our taxes pay for the purchase and maintenance of it. The park management does not own it. They manage it for us. We pay them.

Planet, I'm all with you on the parks. We pay for them in our taxes, park stickers, user fees, parking fees and any other surcharge those in power can tack on to justify their budget woes. I think management tends to forget who owns the parks, and pays their salary.

Take what is happening in a Minnesota county where they... "will be enacting registration of caches. There are banned parks/open spaces. There are limits on # of caches in an area, and the distance between. There is a limit of "two caches per park per cache owner" and a county wide limit of '5 per cache owner'".

Smells like bearaucratic micromanagement to me. Thanks for sticking your hand in our fun folks!

I see stuff like that, and I begin to cringe on where we can leave caches. That is where the marker thing struck me. If gov't feels it needs to manage caches in it's parks, what happens when some supervisor sees coordinates written on a pole regardless of its size. Now they shut down the public right-of-ways to caches.

The specific nature of this cache doesn't bother me. I don't agree with how it was done so I won't hunt it. If others want to hunt it, that's all fine. My intent was to see the attitude of others on it. Thanks.

1.2k · January 9, 2003

Once again the issue of "rules". There are already rules within the Geocaching community to cover mose of what you are complaining the parks are doing. They are restricting how close caches can be from one another, etc.

As for the park managers, most do not have the discretion to allow caching on their own, they are restricted by "rules" imposed on them from above, mainly the legislatures of the states or other governmental entities. We cannot fault the parks people (however arrogant they act sometimes) simply because they are doing their job as they see it. If we want to change that we would have to go through our elected representatives and express our displeasure, as well as our suggested soulutions. I've found that if you only complain and offer no reasonable solution to the problem, you regularly get ignored. Another aspect is that if we do not at least attempt to regulate ourselves then others will be MORE than willing to do it for us.

With all that said, I don't think we ought to mark things up without permission. Assuming it's just "okay" because we don't feel it is harming anything is simply defacing private or even public property and is not what we want to be known for, regardless of degree.

As always, just my humble opinion.

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

9.4k · January 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Breaktrack:
With all that said, I don't think we ought to mark things up without permission. Assuming it's just "okay" because we don't feel it is harming anything is simply defacing private or even public property and is not what we want to be known for, regardless of degree.

Very true.

Does graffiti really 'damage' anything? No, but it is a form of pollution. It doesn't matter how small you make the letters, in principle it is still graffiti.

January 9, 2003

I find it very hard to believe that the power utility company would give permission for someone to write on their pole with permanent marker. I don’t care how small they wrote the directions, it’s still defacing property. What kind of example does that show our children we take with us geocaching? I can see it now “Daddy look someone wrote on the pole with permanent marker, you shouldn’t do that. It’s okay son if you write it very small.” No it doesn’t hurt anyone, but it is still defacing property, illegal, it’s ugly to look at and sets a poor example for the geocaching community.

There's no present. There's only the immediate future and the recent past.

5.9k · January 9, 2003

From another thread:

...I beeze wantin to go geo-ma-cachin an finen all dem deah treasures an all my a$$ be finein is ole golf ballz an troll dollz dat had de chew put on dem. den somebody be dissin an pissin bouts writin on de sign posts an $hit, like dats all weeze gots to be worried bouts, de thing fish done tole yo, "girl, bess be careful wit de latch" on de Zappa record, when Ronda waz gettin down wit de briefcase. point iz, worry bouts de big stuff an de little $hit take care of itself what i be tryin to say. yo be sittin yo pamper lazy a$$ down in de easy chair whiles my bros be gettin ready to leaves deah cribs to go squat in de desert again. Yo Yo, go crize me de rivah. I gots my a$$ bigger fish to be fryin. go fry yo own dadgum fish.

January 9, 2003

This isn't the same pole with all those garage sale signs on it, is it?

3.1k · January 9, 2003

I've seen several caches where the hider wrote coordinates in a light color on a very small, flat magnet. You can get sheets of the stuff at craft stores. You can make them as easy or as difficult to find as you want and put them in just about any urban setting you can imagine.

I realize most people reading this probably aren't the ones writing on signs, but I thought folks might like the idea anyway.

Mein Vater war ein Wandersmann, und ich hab' auch im Blut

5.9k · January 9, 2003

I'm folk and I like it.

20.7k · January 9, 2003

Here's one of the old threads if anyone feels like reading it.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

3k · January 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by AdirondakMud:
This isn't the same pole with all those garage sale signs on it, is it?

This is my response about that:

probably the sharpie

and tiny tiny letters is the way to go if you must do it that way. What about a micro cache film cannister somewhere with the coodinates in it. ( I have rethought this part and don't go for writing on public proeperty, even if my taxes did pay for it, especially because I paid for it)

As for posting signs on signs, illegal, most likely. Posting on phone poles is definitely a no no. Because IF the phone/electric guy had to climb the pole and he tried to get his spikes in and they hit a nail/staple, and they don't grab, and he slips, the creosote covered splinters he would incur could take weeks to pull out. Nasty thought. Fortunately most have cherry pickers now, but you never know when the cherry picker is not available and they might have to climb.

Cache you later,

Planet

"To err is human, to forgive....$5.00"

January 9, 2003

quote:
This isn't the same pole with all those garage sale signs on it, is it?

Quite a few cities have local ordnances banning garage sale signs and a hefty fine for violators. I imagine the fine would even be larger if you advertised your garage sale by writing about it with permanent markers on poles and buildings.

There's no present. There's only the immediate future and the recent past.

January 9, 2003

OK, so if I write on your car with a sharpie, as long as I do it in small letters, no one here would complain?

Criminal, if I wrote on a military vehicle with sharpie, that would be OK, right? After all, I did pay for it!

Nope, writing on something that you don't own without the permission of the owner is vandalism. Sure, in the whole realm of things it's pretty insignificant, but it's still vandalism.

The solution is simple, get their permission.

geospotter

January 9, 2003

Watcher problems about dis. If'n is big, no no, if'n is small o.k. I sez leds vot.

Yes I have finds, yes I have hides and yes I'm a charter member. My wife will not let me use our account on the forums...don't know why.

January 9, 2003

quote:
Watcher problems about dis. If'n is big, no no, if'n is small o.k. I sez leds vot.

That's a big part of the problem in our society; people think that if they did something illegal and nobody sees it or knows about it, then it's ok. It's a shame to see this carrying over into the geocaching community.

There's no present. There's only the immediate future and the recent past.

5.9k · January 9, 2003

OK, you win. I'm a bad boy. I write on the backs of signs. I stood by and did nothing while another cacher wrote on the base of a sign post. I violently ripped a tree branch off recently too. I put cardboard in my newspaper recycling last week. I was traveling at 39 MPH in a 35 MPH zone on my way to work this morning.

I fully intend to do all these things again in the future. I have given up my aspiration to be as good and righteous as you (collective you). You may look down upon me with disdain for I am lesser that thou. I humbly submit myself to your superior geocaching morality.

January 9, 2003

sbell111 thanks for the link to that thread, it was a good read. A lot of different options there that can be used in lieu of writing on anything.

Some ideas on ways to leave coords without writing on something.

-offset film cannister from object

-use existing numbers and use old school math

-label maker labels

-cut a piece of milk jug, write the coords, and tack it to the object

-I've gone to Wal-Mart, and in the lobby used the dog tag maker to put coords on. The tag can then be wired around a tree or post, hidden down by the grass

-REI has these nifty h2o-proof viles about 1" long and 3/8" in dia. screw off top and pull out coords sheet

-found one last week, an altoids tin w/ a magnet inside, 2" dia., and placed in between the corrugation of a highway guardrail and post

-a hose clamp with coords either etched on or written with marker

Keep adding other creative ways you've seen or done.

The key to this whole thread is to alternative ways to leave coords w/o ever having to cross the ethical line of is it, or isn't it graffitti on OPP.

January 9, 2003

quote:
I fully intend to do all these things again in the future. I have given up my aspiration to be as good and righteous as you (collective you). You may look down upon me with disdain for I am lesser that thou. I humbly submit myself to your superior geocaching morality.

Criminal, I don't look down upon you for your views and I don't claim to be righteous. I just think there are better ways to post coordinates. I think permanent markers are the wrong way to go.

Also I would like to thank you for humbling submitting yourself to my superior geocaching morality.

Sierra Geocacher

5.9k · January 9, 2003

I agree that there are other ways to do it. "Better" is dependant on the circumstances. There’s all kinds of crap written all over in places most people don’t normally look. Some is “official” writing and some is not. Do you know which is which? Do you think anybody else does? I use the best method. Sometimes it's writing.

New years eve, driving back from picking up my stepson from his girlfriend’s house, came upon two punk kids pulling down a stop sign and cautionary arrow sign. That’s the kind of thing I worry about...

1.6k · January 9, 2003

-offset film cannister from object

Could be considered littering.

-label maker labels

...and, what, stick them to the pole or sign? Come on! It's no different than a Sharpie on the back of a street sign and harder to remove!

-cut a piece of milk jug, write the coords, and tack it to the object

"Tack it?" You mean put holes in the property?

-I've gone to Wal-Mart, and in the lobby used the dog tag maker to put coords on. The tag can then be wired around a tree or post, hidden down by the grass

Make sure you make the wire loose enough or the tree will grow around it. Still in "attach mode" I see.

-found one last week, an altoids tin w/ a magnet inside, 2" dia., and placed in between the corrugation of a highway guardrail and post

Make sure the magnet and container doesn't rust and cause stains.

-a hose clamp with coords either etched on or written with marker

Not tight, I hope. A hose clamp can stratch and otherwise damage a pole or other object.

You see, there can be an arguement against just about anything.

Yes, I have to agree that permanent marker on wood is pretty much permanent. However, Sharpie on the back of a standard street sign--which, BTW, is aluminum and a magnet will not stick--is very much removable with rubbing alcohol and will not damage the surface. This means it's easier to remove and less damaging than some of the above examples!

CR

January 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:

Why do people still think that _their_ opinion is the right and only opinion? Why is there always somebody so quick to look down their nose at people they consider intellectually inferior, and attempt to impart their asinine ideas upon them?

Sheesh……

Criminal, your astute (as usual) observations are applicable to just about everything out there. look at the position of those gun-control people. They're right, everybody else is wrong

____________________________________________________________

"Seek and ye shall find"

1.2k · January 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:
New years eve, driving back from picking up my stepson from his girlfriend’s house, came upon two punk kids pulling down a stop sign and cautionary arrow sign. _That’s_ the kind of thing I worry about...

Ah, but did you DO anything about it..... I'm lucky that way, I get to actually get out and put the little turds on the ground and call a squad to come and pick their little vandalizing butts up.

Now think about how they came to think that taking down a sign like that is an okay thing to do. You are truly fond of saying that it is just a "little" thing to write on a pole with a permanent marker, and in that respect I'd agree with you that it is not very significant. However, if your other statment that "lots of things are writtin on" has any value it is as an example of what happens when people don't care about the "little" things! You write on a sign here, a sign there, a highway overpass over there, etc, and pretty soon it looks like hell and deservedly so.

As for your little tirade further back, yes, there are LOTS of more serious things to worry about, absolutey, and God bless you and all those that are going to go "squat in the dessert" again... been there, done that, and if they call me back from my retirement, I'll go again too, but that doesn't mean that because you and others are going to take care of the "big stuff" that we should let the "little stuff" go to heck in a hand basket.

Let's agree that the defacing or destruction of private property is wrong, regardless of degree, and disagree on whether it is important enough to worry about, what do you say?

Good luck with the elephant,

Breaktrack

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

5.9k · January 9, 2003

Sorry, but we’ll have to agree to disagree. Writing on the business side of a sign is defacing; the back is not. I never said little crimes were OK. They aren’t going to be putting me in jail for it either. Yes, I chased them into the woods and got a great chuckle to hear them crashing through the brush and hurting themselves. When the local cops got there (I called and waited) they turned the sign over, looked at the tag, and said it was a County problem. The sheriff came and looked around a bit, thanked me for the call, and left. The next morning it was propped back up.

January 9, 2003

Sissy-n-CR said...

quote:
-offset film cannister from object
Could be considered littering.

quote:
You see, there can be an arguement against just about anything

and what I'd call a moment of clarevoyance came over me. I'm sticking with the ethical high road; cache in-trash out. I will now remove every cache, after I find it and log it of course, to free our environment of all this litter.

January 9, 2003

quote:
I will now remove every cache, after I find it and log it of course, to free our environment of all this litter.

Actually, you can't remove caches once they are placed in the wilderness. If you do, you will disrupt the ecology of the surrounding area. Think about it. If you remove the cache, all the little bugs living underneath it will possibly persish (and some of the bugs might be endangered...)

Also, where will the wildlife come and find a free meal of food that was left in the cache? Also, the forest won't smell as good if you remove the scented candles or car fresheners out of the cache...

Finally, if we stop vistiting the caches out in the wilderness, all of the wildlife in the area around the cache will think we don't care about them anymore and would die of loneliness and boredom...

of course I'm only joking...

Hard work pays off in the future, laziness pays off now.

1.6k · January 9, 2003

I will now remove every cache, after I find it and log it of course, to free our environment of all this litter.

I was only making a point as I'm about to place a few film cannister caches myself.

I'll continue to conscientious of my placing of caches and it'd probably include a Sharpie here and there.

CR

January 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by bradtal:

Actually, you can't remove caches once they are placed in the wilderness. If you do, you will disrupt the ecology of the surrounding area.

But it's not TOO far from the truth...

A large retail store moved into the area several years ago. Their new building and parking lot created a drainage problem that they never fixed. It's a real mess. They have since moved on and a new store wants to fix the drainage problem. The State won't let them. It's now considered a Protected Wetlands Area!

January 9, 2003

If you think that some little numbers on the back of a sign that only geocachers understand are bad, then you must think that the cache itself set out in the in our beautiful pristine woods is garbage.

January 10, 2003

I was only making a point as I'm about to place a few film cannister caches myself.

Got it when you wrote it.

I was just saying the removal idea tongue in cheek. There really is no way for geocaching to have a black and white policy as to what you leave, where you leave it, and how you go about finding it; thus Conscientious Caching. Each situation is different, and we've got to be conscientious enough to weigh what is the most prudent method of hiding a cache or coords.

Caching IS littering in some peoples eyes, just as writing on a post IS vandalism in others, no matter what size it is. I think it is great to have a discussion like this to raise our awareness as to what others are sensitive to.

Now a 55 gal. Rubbermaid trash barrel, that could be the ultimate in cache container, trash vessel, camoflagued container, and litter recepticle.

1.2k · January 10, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by beggymike14:
I think it is great to have a discussion like this to raise our awareness as to what others are sensitive to.

Now a 55 gal. Rubbermaid trash barrel, that could be the ultimate in cache container, trash vessel, camoflagued container, and litter recepticle.

I have to admit, that is the coolest thing about these forums, we can discuss this stuff, while respecting each other and the various opinions expressed. I wouldn't have it any other way, otherwise, what did I waste 28 years in the military for?????

I love this sport!!!!

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

January 11, 2003

Writting cache coordinates on a sign is probably no more an eyesore than the sign itself. Do the sign owners mind a few small little numbers written on the back. Probably not. You guys would argue with yourself if no one else was here.

The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

January 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by rut:
If you think that some little numbers on the back of a sign that only geocachers understand are bad, then you must think that the cache itself set out in the in our beautiful pristine woods is garbage.

I have to agree. If we are talking about small, discreet numbers on a sign or post that don't deface the sign, what's the deal? NObody is going to see it except the cacher who is looking for it. It's just a note, get over it. I really don't understand the self-righteous attitude of some.

Bluespreacher

"We've got the hardware and the software, the plans and the maps ..." -- Citizen Wayne Kramer

January 13, 2003

There are better ways to post coordinates than using pernament marker. Some posts on this thread gave some great alternatives to use. My concern here is that writing on signs is illegeal no matter how small the writing is and why give more fuel to the uninformed individuals who look for reasons to ban geocaching in certain areas. My wish is to see more geocaches posted and I see the use of pernament markers setting a bad example to the public (and other geocachers) of the practices of geocachers.

Lake Tahoe Geocacher

5.9k · January 13, 2003

Using that line of reasoning then, we should all go out and guard all the signs and poles we can. If someone else were to write on them, we’ll get the blame right? Can’t have geocaching getting a black eye...

38.2k · January 13, 2003

quote:
I see the use of pernament markers setting a bad example to the public

If the markings are small and inconspicuious, how will the general public even see them, let alone form an opinion about geocaching as a result?

And if, in the remote chance, someone does decide to closely inspect the back of a street sign, pole, or guardrail, how will they relate the numbers to this website and geocaching in general?

"Paternalism is the greatist despotism" - Emmanual Kant

20.7k · January 14, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by TahoeJoe:
... ... I see the use of pernament markers setting a bad example to the public (and other geocachers) of the practices of geocachers.

I think that the only way this writing will be associated with geocaching is if the cacher gets busted actually writing on the sign,

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

January 14, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by sbell111:
I think that the only way this writing will be associated with geocaching is if the cacher gets busted actually writing on the sign,

But if you are not doing anything wrong, as many above have suggested, why would you be worried about getting busted?

20.7k · January 14, 2003

I suspect a cop would think that your doing something wrong.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

Conscientious Caching

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