Warning...Ammo boxes and trouble with the police.

April 14, 2003

As a member of the Saint Paul, MN police, I cannot say this strong enough....the use of ammo boxes, especially during the current heightened terror alert, is a really bad idea, and may get you in trouble. This weekend a ammo box cache was found in a local park. The police were informed, and we stood guard over the box as we waited for the bomb squad to arrive. Before the bomb squad had arrived, a local couple came by the scene looking for the cache, and were promptly questionsed as to why they were looking for the box, and what their their connection to it was. After some explaining, we were finally able to assertain that the box was harmless. The person who put the cache in such a container risked being charged with a crime in the incident. As it stands now all that happened was the ammo box and it's contents were confiscated by our department. I certainly don't want to see geocaching get a bad rap over the use of an improper container. The Saint Paul Police Department simply asks that you use good judgement when setting up and finding caches. To my knowledge this is the first complaint in Saint Paul about geocaching, and I know it will be the last.

Thanks you for your copperation.

April 14, 2003

Was the box marked on the outside at all?

I'm setting up an ammo box cache and have "GEOCACHING.COM" labels on all sides of it except for the bottom. Would it be better to include a short description of what a cache is and why it's there?

--

Random fortune:

sigimage.php

April 14, 2003

Would the charge be for planting a fascimile ("fake") bomb?

But yeah, I see where you and other police are coming from here. Was this cache in an open, public area, or in a woodland area? Also, were there any specific markings, or was it a blank ammo can, or a can with the standard millitary markings?

Still, I think that Geocachers need to find, or employ a company to create, a new standard box for geocaching.

http://thealphaoperator.tripod.com

1.1k · April 14, 2003

quote:
The person who put the cache in such a container risked being charged with a crime in the incident.

Charges for what? What crime was committed?

I've been in LE a total of 32 yrs. I find it a bit incredulous that any jurisdiction would entertain charges against anyone for placing such a container. If any of my people even attempted to file charges against anyone for such, I'd be having a serious talk with them. That's the kind of over-reaction that gives LE a bad name.

38.2k · April 14, 2003

I recall the bomb squad also being called in to blow up a tupperware contianer and another major to-do over a tackle box which cause a highway closure.

The problem is not ammo boxes. It's ill advised placement of caches.

"You can only protect your liberties in this world, by protecting the other man's freedom. "You can only be free if I am" -Clarence Darrow

April 14, 2003

sppd_reserve_cop - A few things

1) you couldn't charge them with anything more that maybe littering.

2) The fact the police over reacted is not the fault of the cache placer.

3) Ammo cans are better than anything else, they last longer, hold a better seal and take more abuse than anything else that is out there.

If the cache placer didnt put any markings on the can that can be a problem but its not a a crime to playthe game at worse its littering.

4) Lets have your guys use a little better judgement - a terror attack isnt going to happen in the woods in a park and maybe effect 1 or 2 people. The wole point of a terror attack to get people were they live and has the chance to have a greater effect on a larger number of the population.

Have fun, Happy Hiking

-Robert

April 14, 2003

Originally posted by sppd_reserve_cop:
As a member of the Saint Paul, MN police, I cannot say this strong enough....the use of ammo boxes, especially during the current heightened terror alert, is a really bad idea, and may get you in trouble. This weekend a ammo box cache was found in a local park. The police were informed, and we stood guard over the box as we waited for the bomb squad to arrive.

Great feedback. I've always been confused about the problems with ammo cans, so perhaps given your firsthand experience with the issue you can help me out.

What, exactly, is it about the ammo can that made you think it was a bomb? I'm wondering because if I were a terrorist (I'm not, but I do have an active imagination) about the last thing I'd consider doing is using a container that struck fear into the hearts of people. I'd probably put the bomb in a big, fuzzy teddy bear, and rather than hide it somewhere in a park (where there are likely to be relatively few people) I'd just leave it in a crowded place like a shopping mall, or a busy street corner, or a hotel lobby, or a restaurant.

Now, you might say that I'm clueless about terrorism, but look at the reports we read about bombings from places like Ireland, Lebanon, Israel, etc. Do they read "A bomb concealed in a metal box and hidden under a log in a park blew up today, injuring a person walking on the nearby footpath" or do they read "A bomb concealed in a plastic shopping bag and left on a barstool in a crowded pub blew up today, killing 16 and wounding 47"?

So clearly there was something about this ammo can that just shouted "I'm a bomb, I'm a bomb, stay away!" which was so persuasive that it overruled anyone's ability to reason. I'm willing to give up using ammo cans, but I'd like someone to articulate exactly what it is about ammo cans that causes this effect before I do. Because I frankly suspect that if we all switched to something else (say, lexan mason jars, or lucite shoeboxes) we'd discover that people were mistaking our lexan mason jars or lucite shoeboxes for bombs, and calling the bomb squad and blowing them up. And I'm pretty confident on that since there have been some number of such scares which involved rubbermaid tubs, so history sides with my argument.

Thanks for your cooperation!

3.1k · April 14, 2003

OK I edited after looking at reserve cops profile, he just joined in order to warn us.

At least the cache was guarded.

Don't hate me cause I'm beautiful

3k · April 14, 2003

quote:
using a container that struck fear into the hearts of people

I'm glad I'm not affraid of ammo cans. If I were I would have a lot less finds.

______________________________________________________________________________________

So far so good, somewhat new owner of a second/new Garmin GPS V 20 plus finds so far with little to no problem. We'll see what happens when there are leaves on the trees again.

April 14, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by sppd_reserve_cop:
As a member of the Saint Paul, MN police, I cannot say this strong enough....the use of ammo boxes, especially during the current heightened terror alert, is a really bad idea, and may get you in trouble.

I guess if your tone was less condescending and not containing vast amounts of puffery, I would respond differently.

So....

Don’t be obtuse.

3k · April 14, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Judy&Dick:

quote:
Originally posted by sppd_reserve_cop:
As a member of the Saint Paul, MN police, I cannot say this strong enough....the use of ammo boxes, especially during the current heightened terror alert, is a really bad idea, and may get you in trouble.

I guess if your tone was less condescending and not containing vast amounts of puffery, I would respond differently.

So....

Don’t be obtuse.

Differently than what?

______________________________________________________________________________________

So far so good, somewhat new owner of a second/new Garmin GPS V 20 plus finds so far with little to no problem. We'll see what happens when there are leaves on the trees again.

1.4k · April 14, 2003

Does the SPPD condone your posting of this information i.e. are you making this post under the direction of your full-time counterparts with the blessing of the SPPD Chief? I find it odd that a department the size of the SPPD would rely on a reserve police officer to be an official spokesman If you are acting as a departmental spokesperson, you should be more careful with your spelling i.e.

Thanks you for your copperation.

I can see where no laws were broken and there certainly no laws concerning what is or isn't appropriate to use as a geocache container.

So, once again, I ask are you posting this information as a departmental spokesperson or are you simply upset that you had to babysit a container for a couple of hours?

Jeff

http://www.StarsFellOnAlabama.com

http://www.NotAChance.com

If you hide it, they will come....

April 14, 2003

Exactly Kodak's4!

Plus why put a bomb in a ammo can? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of a bomb? They are pretty tough and would make the affect of a bomb a lot less.

I do see that if someone open it up to see what was in it and then it exploded.

And I do want to hear why they think they can arrest the cache owner for placing the cache.

JACW

Does anyone have some cache on them?

5.3k · April 14, 2003

What this boils down to is paranoia induced by the home land security folks. Those in

charge is DC will not be happy until they do away with all on our rights under the

umbrella of national security. And most Americans do not even see it coming.

5.3k · April 14, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by sppd_reserve_cop:
To my knowledge this is the first complaint in Saint Paul about geocaching, and I know it will be the last.

If this will be the last complaint, why are we worrying about it???

"Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand."

April 14, 2003

Also note that the container was clearly marked...

Notes from the actual cache owner Here

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"The number you have reached is imaginary, please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again... <beeeeep>"

April 14, 2003

quote:
This weekend an ammo box... risked being charged with a crime.

You mean there is actually a law somewhere that says "Don't put things in ammo boxes and hide them in the woods?" I think if I were a terrorist, I wouldn't put a bomb in an ammo box, anyway. I would put it in a Hot Wings or McRib box.

Right after the bombing incident at the Atlanta Olympics, we were on heightened security where I work, and we were told to report any suspicious or abandoned packages.

So one day, a fellow worker notices an abandoned package, and being an exemplary gov't employee, notifies security, who in turn advises regional headquarters, etc.

After much ado, it was discovered that someone left his tuna fish sandwich in a sack on top of the coke machine.

April 14, 2003

PS... Here is the cache in question....

Note that it was an "Earth Day" Cleanup crew who found the cache and panicked

----------------------------------

"The number you have reached is imaginary, please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again... <beeeeep>"

April 14, 2003

To answer a few questions...

True, most officers would simply rule that incidents like the one that happened this weekend are unfounded, no crime commited, just like the officers did in this case. No problem.

No I am not a spokesperson for the Saint Paul. I was asked by one of the officers on scene to post a note asking that you think twice about using ammo boxes, because I knew about this site, and had a better knowledge of computers. I did not intend to sound as if I was speaking for the department.

There were markings on the box (top and side), but they were not visible. Top was covered by logs, the side was up against a tree.

We take any possible threat seriously. But we were VERY happy it turned out to be nothing.

This is the United States. Your are free to use ammo boxes or not use them. I simply ask that you think twice about it. If you do, make sure it is well marked. A simple suggestion.

Yes my typing skills need improvement. I do tend to spell words incorrectly. Sorry.

April 14, 2003

This last weekend - I hid a cache (not posted on the website) for some local cubscouts to find with a map and compass.

On the way in to hide the 30mm ammo box - I stopped and asked one of the park police if he minded if I stashed this in the woods for the scouts. He wasn't concerned about the container - only that we didn't leave any trash behind.

The kids, however, totally LOVED the ammo can!

I think at this point, an unattended briefcase might raise just as much alarm as an ammo can. As others have said, it's all about location. An ammo can in an old tree stump in the woods is much different than one stashed under a bridge or near a powerplant.

Of course, in honor of the season - we can use giant easter eggs instead of ammo cans!

Nine out of ten people who change their minds are wrong the second time too.

April 14, 2003

sppd_reserve_cop: Thanks for explaining yourself better.

Does anyone have some cache on them?

April 14, 2003

sppd_reserve_cop - It's been interesting following this thread. I will be placing two caches soon in the Saint Paul area, and this is a great reminder to make sure I have them very clearly marked. I origionally was just going to have it painted camo with "geocaching.com" in black sharpie... Interesting incident.

Either way, the cache found in Como Park *was* clearly marked as well, though... I just hope a lot of this clears up when more people understand what Geocaching is all about. I suppose it's understandable that finding a metal box next to a tree covered in logs is a bit unexplainable if you had no idea that there was a global stash hunt in existance.

Thanks,

-Aaron

1.4k · April 14, 2003

I did not intend to sound as if I was speaking for the department.

Well, you did sound as if you were speaking for your department.

As an officer, I understand where you are coming from, but one should be careful when making public statements such as this, lest they find themselves in the Chief's office attemtpting to explain why they circumvented the chain of command and spoke to the media/public in the capacity of a spokesperson.

There have been several teletypes sent nationwide over the past couple of years about geocaching. Does your department go over these teletypes during roll call? Sometimes these information broadcasts may seem dull, but in this case had the broadcast been disseminated, the SPPD would have understood more about geocaching. In fact, that was what got me interested in geocaching.

because I knew about this site, and had a better knowledge of computers.

If you knew that it was a geocache, wouldn't it have saved the taxpayers a lot of $$$'s if you had let your supervisor know what it was

Hopefully, the SPPD can use this experience as a learning experience. sppd_reserve_cop, I do applaud the fact that you are willing to go the extra mile to help educate the public, but when you immediately start stating that persons could go to jail over this, you are bound to stir up a hornet's nest. I trust that the SPPD will be returning the cache container to its rightful owner. Be safe!

Jeff

http://www.StarsFellOnAlabama.com

http://www.NotAChance.com

If you hide it, they will come....

April 14, 2003

Whnever I see something like this I have the same questions:

* Did the cache owner get permission for the cache from the park's manager?

* Did the manager inform the rest of the employees, so if they stumbled on it they would know what it is?

* Why didn't the police inform someone in the park about the problem when they were notified?

It seems to me that a lot of problems can be avoided with more communication, and someone wasn't communicating.

RichardMoore

www.geocities.com/richardsrunaway

April 14, 2003

.

quote:
Originally posted by sppd_reserve_cop:
There were markings on the box (top and side), but they were not visible. Top was covered by logs, the side was up against a tree.

We take any possible threat seriously. But we were VERY happy it turned out to be nothing.

This is the United States. Your are free to use ammo boxes or not use them. I simply ask that you think twice about it. If you do, make sure it is well marked. A simple suggestion.

I'm still confused. You guys come across an ammo can. I understand that this particular ammo can had been repainted, so there's no issue with markings that say scary things (like "7.62mm NATO cartridges, 500 count").

You found this ammo can in place, against a tree, covered by logs.

What was it that made everyone decide it was a bomb? Do people in Saint Paul usually hide bombs next to trees, under logs, in a park? I'm serious, here, not jerking you around. I genuinely want to know what motivated the decision that this thing was a bomb, because I'd like to know how to avoid problems in the future. And if, in retrospect, it was not a particularly reasoned decision, I'd like to know that, too, because often people don't use reason when confronted with unusual sitations. That's fine, I don't care, I just want to know how to prevent people from freaking out when they stumble across a cache I've hidden.

Finally, you advise people that "Your are free to use ammo boxes or not use them. I simply ask that you think twice about it. If you do, make sure it is well marked. A simple suggestion." This particular ammo can was marked, top and side. Yet you guys still called the bomb squad.

Clearly, prominent markings don't help, so I don't understand the motivation behind your advice.

I think the most helpful thing would be for you guys to tell us what factors you use in deciding something is a bomb - e.g. proximity to population, matches common terrorist targets, proximity to infrastructure (e.g. bridges, dams, or other obvious bomb targets), receipt of a bomb threat, matching the profile of other bombing incidents. It seems to me that all of these things (which I would think would be used in some sort of formal risk assessment of the sort you expect police to use) point to this thing NOT being a bomb, so clearly I don't understand how this sort of decision is made by law enforcement folks.

[This message was edited by Kodak's4 on April 14, 2003 at 09:24 AM.]

1.2k · April 14, 2003

Wow, what a deal!

Couple of things. Yes, police all over the place are NOT familiar with our little game. Get used to it or educate them, only two options.

Kuddos for the reserve officer taking the time to come on here and post about the incident. My personal opinon may be that it was a bit of an overreaction there in the park, but I wasn't there.

Question: did the cache placer get permission for the cache to be placed in the park? If not, shame on you, if you did, shame on the police for not checking with them to see.

Another thing, yes, the ammo can will make a better device than a tupperware container. It has to do with causing a greater explosion by having a stronger, tighter container that takes more force to overcome the resistance the stronger container provides. And besides, the ammo can becomes shrapnel in the blast.

Reducing the "menacing" appearance of the ammo can? Hmmmm, paint them pink? LOL. New rule: all ammo cans must be painted pink to reduce their aggressive and menacing appearance to us poor frightened mice who wander about in a complete fog...

Yes, terrorists might place a device in a park. Why? Rather than carry it to a target the day it is to be placed and risk being stopped with it, it can be placed nearby in an out of the way spot till it is needed. Then you pick it up and place it, in a matter of moments, at it's actual target.

So as you can see, you cannot just "assume" things about anything the police find. Marked clearly is about the best you can do, along with GETTING PERMISSION to place the cache from the proper authorities.

I love the one about "See! This is us losing our freedoms! Paranoid Homeland Security People!!" Give me a break. LOL. Someone called the police folks, they weren't out trying to violate your rights by checking on a suspicious circumstance in a public park... chill out for crying out loud.

JMHO

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

1.7k · April 14, 2003

Just to be the devil's advocate: If the box was repainted, it was just a painted box.

How was it determined that it was a "deaded ammo can" before the cachers arrived and were questioned? A suspected bomb is not picked up and opened. It usually is not approached once discovered.

Also, the phrase beginning "The Saint Paul Police Department simply asks" is you speaking for the department, like it or not.

DustyJacket

Not all those that wander are lost. But in my case...

April 14, 2003

The cops are angry because they first thought it was a box of donuts.

========================================

Friends don't let Friends geocache drunk.

1.2k · April 14, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Kodak's4:
.

quote:
Originally posted by sppd_reserve_cop:
There were markings on the box (top and side), but they were not visible. Top was covered by logs, the side was up against a tree.

We take any possible threat seriously. But we were VERY happy it turned out to be nothing.

This is the United States. Your are free to use ammo boxes or not use them. I simply ask that you think twice about it. If you do, make sure it is well marked. A simple suggestion.

Ok, I'm still confused. You guys come across an ammo can. From others, I understand that this particular ammo can had been repainted (in a hand done camo pattern), so there's no issue with markings that say scary things (like "7.62mm NATO cartridges, 500 count").

You found this ammo can in place, against a tree, covered by logs.

What was it that made you decide it was a bomb?

Finally, you advise people that "Your are free to use ammo boxes or not use them. I simply ask that you think twice about it. If you do, make sure it is well marked. A simple suggestion." This particular ammo can _was marked, top and side_. Yet you guys still called the bomb squad.

So why would marking it help?

Okay, the police didn't "find" the box, people cleaning up the park did. The police officers who showed up were obviously not going to take any chances with the ammo can as they could not see the markings on the can without disturbing it. They are trained NOT to disturb such things but to call someone who IS trained to check it out.

The "bomb squad" came and checked it out and found out it was harmless. What the heck more do you want???

After they checked it out and everyone was satisfied there was nothing to it, they all left with the can to investigate it's placement further. Then one of them came on here and posted about it. Sounds like a very concientious effort on their part to me! I am also of the opinion the can should be well marked. If it was, great, if it wasn't, then it should have been. Because we are familiar with our little stickers and what they represent does not mean others are as well. I will be addressing this issue soon for all police departments but I'm not at liberty to say much about it right now, but will post it for all to see in here at the time.

Till then, I say good job to the police department, and welcome to Geocaching...LOL.

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

1.4k · April 14, 2003

The cops are angry because they first thought it was a box of donuts.

Hey! I resemble that remark

Jeff

http://www.StarsFellOnAlabama.com

http://www.NotAChance.com

If you hide it, they will come....

April 14, 2003

"I was asked by one of the officers on scene to post a note asking that you think twice about using ammo boxes,because I knew about this site"

Ok, wait a minute. If he already knew about this site then he was aware of geocaching. So why was it such a shock to him when a few cachers wandered up looking for it. He should have spoken up and told the other cops about this game & that the ammo can could likely be harmless. Especially if they would have taken the time to read what was on the can. Seems to me like a typical case of cops thinking they're a little too powerful. Once the cache was checked out they should have left it there or at least allowed the cachers to take it and contact the owner. There was no crime committed here! Who are you trying to kid? In his reply, sppd_reserve_cop still never stated what the possible crime was. He was just trying to strike fear into us because he's a cop. Woohoo, sorry dude but you failed.

--------------------------------

Magellan Meridian GPS

Handspring Visor Deluxe

L.O.S.T. - http://www.kjjeep.com

1.2k · April 14, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Dave54:
The cops are angry because they first thought it was a box of donuts.

========================================

Friends don't let Friends geocache drunk.

Oh, my, what a pithy, intelligent response... well done. I'm sure they feel chastised now... whooo hooo.

Give me a break, can't you do any better than this.... why waste your time?

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

24.7k · April 14, 2003

I've had it explained to me that if I'm on the bad side of an officer they can pretty much find something to nail me with if they so choose.

Ammo Boxes are fine. In a prior post with a bomb squad geocacher if they have any doubt at all they will blow up the container regardless of type. Tupperware included. I don't blame them. Doubt comes from not being able to see inside, or being able to identify clearly that the components are not bomb material.

Geocaching is here to stay. My containers generally say geocache on them, or are clear.

If I can be charged for a crime because people overreact to a container hidden in a bush, under a rock, or other place that isn't too likely to cause massive damage to a building that's beyond my control. I'm glad people are paying attention and that the geocacher told you what they were doing and allowed everyone to stand down.

Still what's my crime as a cache hider as opposed to the person who called in what turned out to be a false alarm? Neither was actually trying to do any harm.

If more of your police force were active geocachers they would know the cache was there and probably could of solved your problem for you.

I'll buy no geocaches in front of the federal building. But I won't buy no geocaches in a park. There is a balance.

==============================

Wherever you go there you are.

1.2k · April 14, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by L.O.S.T.hoomdorm:
_"I was asked by one of the officers on scene to post a note asking that you think twice about using ammo boxes,_because I knew about this site_"_

Ok, wait a minute. If he already knew about this site then he was aware of geocaching. So why was it such a shock to him when a few cachers wandered up looking for it. He should have spoken up and told the other cops about this game & that the ammo can could likely be harmless. Especially if they would have taken the time to read what was on the can. Seems to me like a typical case of cops thinking they're a little too powerful. Once the cache was checked out they should have left it there or at least allowed the cachers to take it and contact the owner. There was no crime committed here! Who are you trying to kid? In his reply, sppd_reserve_cop still never stated what the possible crime was. He was just trying to strike fear into us because he's a cop. Woohoo, sorry dude but you failed.

--------------------------------

Magellan Meridian GPS

Handspring Visor Deluxe

L.O.S.T. - http://www.kjjeep.com

Sorry, incorrect. I'm aware of a LOT of sites on the web and I still have NO idea what the heck they are about or why they even exist. Once he saw it had the geocaching site listed it reminded him he'd seen something about that on the web and he volunteered to contact the site. Geex, you guys are some PICKY people...LOL.

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

April 14, 2003

Originally posted by DustyJacket:

Also, the phrase beginning "The Saint Paul Police Department simply asks" is you speaking for the department, like it or not.

You are right. Bad choice of words on my part. I apologize.

And Dave...yes we were very disappointed that it was not a box of donuts. I was so ready for a jelly filled. ;P

April 14, 2003

On a side note...

I've got a question

I'd like to get the opinion of law-enforcement as well...

----------------------------------

"The number you have reached is imaginary, please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again... <beeeeep>"

April 14, 2003

I'm always amazed at how overly suspicious and over-reactive we're now become in this day and age. A briefcase left at a bus-stop was blown by the RCMP bomb squad not to long ago where I live. <sarcasm> I guess it should have been clearly labled:

'This is not a bomb'

Maybe I should put that on my next ammo can to clear up any un-intended misconceptions! </sarcasm>

1.2k · April 14, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Knight:
I've had it explained to me that if I'm on the bad side of an officer they can pretty much find something to nail me with if they so choose.

Ammo Boxes are fine. In a prior post with a bomb squad geocacher if they have any doubt at all they will blow up the container regardless of type. Tupperware included. I don't blame them. Doubt comes from not being able to see inside, or being able to identify clearly that the components are not bomb material.

Geocaching is here to stay. My containers generally say geocache on them, or are clear.

If I can be charged for a crime because people overreact to a container hidden in a bush, under a rock, or other place that isn't too likely to cause massive damage to a building that's beyond my control. I'm glad people are paying attention and that the geocacher told you what they were doing and allowed everyone to stand down.

Still what's my crime as a cache hider as opposed to the person who called in what turned out to be a false alarm? Neither was actually trying to do any harm.

If more of your police force were active geocachers they would know the cache was there and probably could of solved your problem for you.

I'll buy no geocaches in front of the federal building. But I won't buy no geocaches in a park. There is a balance.

==============================

Wherever you go there you are.

Agreed, if you are on the bad side of a BAD officer, they can do that. They shouldn't, but they can. A good cop won't.

Agreed, ammo cans are fine. I have no problem with them. Most squads do not automatically "blow them up" if they can't see inside. In this day of chem/bio risks it's not as automatic as it used to be, you never know what might be inside.

Agreed, Geocaching is here to stay, no problem or complaint with that. Guess what, police checking out boxes hidden in public areas and trying to determine whether they are a risk or not is here to stay also. Educate the police about Geocaching or live with it.

Agreed, the police shouldn't charge someone with a "crime" unless there is evidence to support such a charge. But, if the individual who places the cache in a public park with out the permission of the park management, they can be charged, get over it.

Agreed, neither was trying to do any harm. Neither were the police.

Agreed, more police ought to Geocache. If nothing else it helps relieve stress.... until you come into the forums...sigh.

Agreed, no cache hiding in front of federal buildings... lol, and caches, with permission, should not be a problem in parks.

See, I'm just so easy to get along with...LOL..

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

1.2k · April 14, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Zartimus:
I'm always amazed at how overly suspicious and over-reactive we're now become in this day and age. A briefcase left at a bus-stop was blown by the RCMP bomb squad not to long ago where I live. <sarcasm> I guess it should have been clearly labled:

'This is not a bomb'

Maybe I should put that on my next ammo can to clear up any un-intended misconceptions! </sarcasm>

Dude! Where have you been? We've been blowing open briefcases and such as long as I've been a bomb tech... sheesh. Started in 1985 and they were doing that waaaaay before I went to school. There have always been suspicious packages and such in the world, they didn't just start on 9/11....

LOL.

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

April 14, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Breaktrack:
After they checked it out and everyone was satisfied there was nothing to it, they all left with the can to investigate it's placement further. Then one of them came on here and posted about it. Sounds like a very concientious effort on their part to me!

Yes, yes.

What actually happened is that after they checked it out and everyone was satisfied there was nothing to it, they all left with the can to investigate further. Then one of them came on here and posted, saying

quote:
As a member of the Saint Paul, MN police, I cannot say this strong enough....the use of ammo boxes, especially during the current heightened terror alert, is a really bad idea, and may get you in trouble

and

quote:
I certainly don't want to see geocaching get a bad rap over the use of an improper container.

I think that what happened is that law enforcement found something. And they decided it was a bomb. Now, please understand - I know that they can't afford to take ANY chances, no matter how small. So I understand perfectly that they called the bomb squad. If I were in their shoes, I might well do the same thing. No one ever got fired for calling the bomb squad for what turned out to be a false alarm, but I assure you that if it HAD been a bomb and they ignored it, there would be hell to pay.

But when it turned out to NOT be a bomb, and people started pointing out that generally speaking terrorists don't hide bombs in parks, in the woods, under logs, against a tree, with markings reading "this is a geocache" on them, those folks started feeling foolish, despite the fact that they were in fact doing exactly the right thing - calling the folks who know how to make a good assessment. But still they felt silly, so they cast around for an ironclad reason why they thought it was a bomb, and they latched onto the one feeble reason they could find - it was in an ammo can. But, in point of fact, if it had been in a rubbermaid tub, they'd still have thought it was a bomb. The difference is that afterwards, they wouldn't have been able to say "Well, yeah! Maybe we should have known it wasn't a bomb, but it was in a rubbermaid tub, so naturally we thought it was a bomb" without sounding like total idiots.

And I guess I don't see that as a persuasive reason to avoid using ammo cans for geocaching.

1.2k · April 14, 2003

Duplicate post....

1.1k · April 14, 2003

Or we all could just start e-mailing the links to caches to the local state, county and city police departments.

And if not that, calling the location's in to the public relations contact for the different departments. List the cords, container type, contents and a contact number.

After a while, they just might get tired of being informed.

logscaler.

1.2k · April 14, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Breaktrack:

quote:
Originally posted by Kodak's4:

I think that what happened is that law enforcement found something. And they decided it was a bomb. Now, please understand - I know that they can't afford to take ANY chances, no matter how small. So I understand perfectly that they called the bomb squad. If I were in their shoes, I might well do the same thing. No one ever got fired for calling the bomb squad for what turned out to be a false alarm, but I assure you that if it HAD been a bomb and they ignored it, there would be hell to pay.

But when it turned out to NOT be a bomb, and people started pointing out that generally speaking terrorists don't hide bombs in parks, in the woods, under logs, against a tree, with markings reading "this is a geocache" on them, those folks started feeling foolish, despite the fact that they were in fact doing exactly the right thing - calling the folks who know how to make a good assessment. But still they felt silly, so they cast around for an ironclad reason why they thought it was a bomb, and they latched onto the one feeble reason they could find - it was in an ammo can. But, in point of fact, if it had been in a rubbermaid tub, they'd still have thought it was a bomb. The difference is that afterwards, they wouldn't have been able to say "Well, yeah! Maybe we should have known it wasn't a bomb, but it was in a _rubbermaid tub_, so naturally we thought it was a bomb" without sounding like total idiots.

And I guess I don't see that as a persuasive reason to avoid using ammo cans for geocaching.

Agreed, it's not a persuasive reason to avoid using ammo cans for geocaching, you are right there.

However, please understand, most police do not feel "silly" while doing the right thing. The do, however, understand that the expenditure of resources must be justified to the very publice that found the box in the first place (the police did NOT find the can, they responded to who did find it). So, they did what is in the procedural manual for responses such as this and I cannot fault them for that. If, after further investigatin they find the cache placer had proper permission to place the cache in the park, then it would be very big of them to replace it in it's original spot, or return it to the owner for replacement at their leisure.

Either way, I really don't think we have a single complaint concerning this issue, but it sure has been fun to chat about it, at least in my humble opinion.

Great subject, great posts, good job folks.

(except for the doughnut thing....LOL)

http://www.texasgeocaching.com

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

1.2k · April 14, 2003

DANG! How did that happen.....

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

April 14, 2003

quote:
Did the cache owner get permission for the cache from the park's manager?

It was placed in a Saint Paul park. Currently, the city has no ordinance concerning geocaching (or is not enforcing it.)

On April 1st, two metro counties adopted regulating ordinances, with a third to follow shortly.

I register my caches where it's required, but don't ask for 'permission' elsewhere.

1.2k · April 14, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by King Boreas:

quote:
Did the cache owner get permission for the cache from the park's manager?

It was placed in a Saint Paul park. Currently, the city has no ordinance concerning geocaching (or is not enforcing it.)

On April 1st, two metro counties adopted regulating ordinances, with a third to follow shortly.

I register my caches where it's required, but don't ask for 'permission' elsewhere.

Alrighty then, looks like a non-issue then. Hopefully you're area will be accepting of caching after a few more incidents like this one...LOL.

But seriously, I was truly curious about that. Thanks.

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

6.5k · April 14, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by sppd_reserve_cop:
To answer a few questions...

There were markings on the box (top and side), but they were not visible. Top was covered by logs, the side was up against a tree.

Aside from "use another container" which wouldn't work, and "clearly mark it" which didn't work in this case...

Do you (or the other officers) have any suggestions for how to keep the bomb squad from being called?

1.2k · April 14, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by welch:

quote:
Originally posted by sppd_reserve_cop:
To answer a few questions...

There were markings on the box (top and side), but they were not visible. Top was covered by logs, the side was up against a tree.

Aside from "use another container" which wouldn't work, and "clearly mark it" which didn't work in this case...

Do you (or the other officers) have any suggestions for how to keep the bomb squad from being called?

http://brillig.com/geocaching/http://img.Groundspeak.com/user/22008_1700.gif http://www.gpgeocaching.com/

Heh heh heh, don't have a bomb squad??? LOL.

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

6.5k · April 14, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Breaktrack:

Heh heh heh, don't have a bomb squad??? LOL.

Cut the squad's phone line?

April 14, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Breaktrack:
Either way, I really don't think we have a single complaint concerning this issue, but it sure has been fun to chat about it, at least in my humble opinion.

Well, actually, I have one.

My complaint is that sppd_reserve_cop still hasn't told us why he thinks ammo cans are bad. Since that was the specific content of his original post, it would be nice if he'd follow through and tell us.

Surprisingly, I still want to know.

Warning...Ammo boxes and trouble with the police.

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