BLM is looking into the legality of GeoCaching!

[Guest bbnot2busy]

FYI: Here is a direct quote from an e-mail I received from a BLM employee:

"The BLM in Utah and Oregon/Washington are looking into the legality of GeoCaching on public lands."

 

In case any one out there knows a way to entice the BLM to continue to allow our sport on public lands, I encourage you step up to bat.

[Guest WayOutWest]

Thanks for posting this. I have a couple of contacts with the BLM in Moab and Price-I'll contact them tomorrow and find out what's up. I'll post back on this thread tomorrow or Tuesday.

 

WayOutWest

[Guest bbnot2busy]

another direct quote from the BLM:

"I just talked to my field office manager. For now, until the BLM comes up with a standard policy on geocaching, the caches are

considered abandoned property or littering. Other states are picking them up as such."

 

One of my caches was very recently removed/stolen by the Monticello UT office of the BLM!

[Guest EyezOfTheWorld]

First off, about how much land is the Monticello office in charge of watching over? If they found your cache, how well was it hidden? I mean, they can't be looking at every square foot of land to find "abandoned" items.

 

No Geocaching on BLM land? How many millions of acres is that? This definitely can't be a good thing.

[Guest Havasu Desert Rat]

This is bad news. Those of us out west don't have too many other choices. If it's ok to place summit registers on peaks, what's wrong with geocaching? Same game, different location.

[Guest Big-Bird]

found your cache, how well was it hidden? I mean, they can't be looking at every square foot of land to find "abandoned" items."

 

They find it just like everyone else does. And to them its a violation so they get paid for looking. Its an official hunt for them. But.......if they spend too much time looking for things and find nothing it may get old.

There IS a hidden message here

Rick.

[Guest Big-Bird]

found your cache, how well was it hidden? I mean, they can't be looking at every square foot of land to find "abandoned" items."

 

They find it just like everyone else does. And to them its a violation so they get paid for looking. Its an official hunt for them. But.......if they spend too much time looking for things and find nothing it may get old.

There IS a hidden message here

Rick.

[Guest bunkerdave]

I am the owner of the Muley point cache, which is, I believe, the first confirmed removal by the BLM.

 

I immediately called the BLM office in Monticello and spoke for about 40 minutes with the Field Manager there. You should all know that there is a good chance we will be able to get this activity approved on a permit basis, which would be a HUGE step for the future of our sport.

 

I know I have said some things that were critical of the various Federal land agencies, but I hope you all realize, as do I, that this actually HURTS our cause. I will be drawing up a proposal this week to submit to the BLM, to the end that we will be able to get permits to place caches on BLM-managed land. Let's not do anything to kill this possibility before it even gets off the ground, okay?

[Guest jeremy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by bunkerdave:

I will be drawing up a proposal this week to submit to the BLM, to the end that we will be able to get permits to place caches on BLM-managed land. Let's not do anything to kill this possibility before it even gets off the ground, okay?

---

 

Let me know if I can help out at all with statistics, photos of "cache in, trash out" participants and whatnot. As I am also in the area where BLM lands are, I have a personal interest in this one.

 

I know lots of folks would be against having to purchase permits for geocaches, but it really is the best way to make geocaching work in the long run. What's wrong with donating money to the park managers anyway?

 

Jeremy

 

[This message has been edited by jeremy (edited 06 August 2001).]

[Guest bunkerdave]

Jeremy (and all others)

 

Feel free to send me any pics you have of your "Trash Out" operations. Also, any information you can provide, or suggestions, on why the BLM would want to allow Geocaching would be very helpful. I have my own ideas, but I am only one man. Pictures, Graphs, statistics, anything that shows what a positive thing Geocaching really is, both for the land and its participants.

 

I would be very interested in hearing from those of you who were "couch potatoes" before you discovered Geocaching. I think the fact that many people who had little or no desire to get out and see our wild places until they discovered Geocaching is a favorable thing, don't you agree?

 

I do not say, nor do I expect, that we will continue to be allowed to place caches in the same free-wheeling manner to which we may be accustomed. I am interested in becoming more educated as to the potential impacts of our activity, and the BLM will almost certainly do a study on this, assuming, of course, that they don't simply ban it as "littering." Given my discussion with the manager, I don't thing that will happen. I DO expect that there will be some guidelines that will be in place for where caches can be placed, as well as for keeping the various agencied apprised of the caching situation. There may even be limits on how many permits will be issued for a given area. These are just possibilities, mind you, so don't get too worked up. I am hopeful that the bureau will be able to provide us with some really good guidelines for placing caches, so that we do not unintentionally cause any damage that will cast us in unfavorable light.

 

 

------------------

David Wallentine

dwallent34@yahoo.com

[Guest Harv]

David,

 

I was definately in the couch-potato category before I got involved in geocaching. I'm still not in the best of shape, but my family and I enjoy visiting places we have never been to before every weekend now. As far as I'm concerned, geocaching is the best way ever to advertise a spot that you enjoy that people might not otherwise know about.

 

I also use our geocaching outings to teach my children to be good stewards of the earth. We practice low-impact hiking and I teach them to always stay on the road/trail.

 

We always pick up trash when we see it and carry it out with us. Unfortunately, I haven't taken any pictures yet of our "cache in, trash out" activities, but will the next time we go.

 

Geocaching is yet another way of enjoying our public lands and I wish you luck and success in your dealings with the BLM.

 

Steve Trottier

(Harv)

[Guest jeremy]

Here's an email I just received from Westminster, Colorado (I get a quite a few of these) -

 

"You finally did it! I did'nt (sic) think ANYONE could get my 14 year old son outside away from his PS2!! I drug him along yesterday on a hunt and he is going nuts about getting out and finding more. We visited 3 sites yesterday, looks like we might see another one today. "

 

That's what I'm talking about

Jeremy

[Guest jeremy]

Here's an email I just received from Westminster, Colorado (I get a quite a few of these) -

 

"You finally did it! I did'nt (sic) think ANYONE could get my 14 year old son outside away from his PS2!! I drug him along yesterday on a hunt and he is going nuts about getting out and finding more. We visited 3 sites yesterday, looks like we might see another one today. "

 

That's what I'm talking about

Jeremy

[Guest FJ.de.Bruin]

/www.staatsbosbeheer.nl/doen/zelfoppad/gps.asp" TARGET=_blank>http://www.staatsbosbeheer.nl/doen/zelfoppad/gps.asp

 

Frank

[Guest navdog]

I had posted a thread last week about some of the problems with how geocaching may be looked at in the near future by the public and government agencies and what we could do to show good stewardship of our sport:

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000645.html

 

Unfortunately, I think everyone was to busy bashing the government to reply on how we can improve our image. But it is good to see that there may be a cache monitoring system

in place soon and maybe we could have groups of geocachers joining local litter cleanup efforts in the future.

 

David,

Iwould be happy to go through the cache logs in my area and send you some of the excerpts like the one Jeremy quoted above. If you think that would be of help in your proposal.

 

[This message has been edited by navdog (edited 06 August 2001).]

[Guest navdog]

Also, is it time that we start considering changing the concept of what is a cache and think of the idea of just having a logbook in a cache, thereby promoting the idea that a cache is not as much litter as compared to larger containers. The BLM and other agencies may be more receptive if there was a standard container used that was as small as possible. BUT THIS MAY NEED TO BE THE SUBJECT OF A DIFFERENT THREAD.

[Guest jeremy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by navdog:

The BLM and other agencies may be more receptive if there was a standard container used that was as small as possible. BUT THIS MAY NEED TO BE THE SUBJECT OF A DIFFERENT THREAD.

---

 

You're welcome to contribute to the cache kit post. Seems that we could probably find a good middle ground with an approved cache container -

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000312.html

 

Sort of benefits both parties. An official geocaching container would be recognized by land managers, and possibly keep them from being misinterpreted as something else by people that come across it.

 

Jeremy

[Guest bunkerdave]

As a preliminary step to my proposal, I have a brainstorm list sitting on my desk of concerns the BLM might have, and probably does have, about Geocaching. So Far:

 

Environmental Impact

Liability (Safety)

Littering

Off-road travel

Trails

Orphaned Caches

Contents (safety, wildlife)

Animals (Similar to contents)

Contacting owners of caches.

 

I expect this list will go on.

 

I am considering contacting the BLM office and finding out exactly what their concerns are, so I don't waste time trying to guess.

[Guest bbnot2busy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by bunkerdave:

As a preliminary step to my proposal, I have a brainstorm list sitting on my desk of concerns the BLM might have, and probably does have, about Geocaching. So Far:

 

Environmental Impact

Liability (Safety)

Littering

Off-road travel

Trails

Orphaned Caches

Contents (safety, wildlife)

Animals (Similar to contents)

Contacting owners of caches.

 

I expect this list will go on.

 

I am considering contacting the BLM office and finding out exactly what their concerns are, so I don't waste time trying to guess.

 

---

 

Bunkerdave,

a quick comment on orphaned caches.... I think it would be a total HOOT to be hiking in the outdoors and come across an abandoned ammo can from 50 years ago with a log and a bunch of "old" toys in it!! Any idea what a 1958 matchbox car in its original box would be worth today??? I still would not consider an orphaned/abandoned cache as litter! Did the Indians litter when they did not go find/recover every arrowhead they shot?? Lets not all forget that someday what we leave behind now may be a highly sought after collectible!

 

 

[This message has been edited by bbnot2busy (edited 06 August 2001).]

[Guest bbnot2busy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by navdog:

Also, is it time that we start considering changing the concept of what is a cache and think of the idea of just having a logbook in a cache, thereby promoting the idea that a cache is not as much litter as compared to larger containers. The BLM and other agencies may be more receptive if there was a standard container used that was as small as possible. BUT THIS MAY NEED TO BE THE SUBJECT OF A DIFFERENT THREAD.

---

 

I am sure my kids eyes will LIGHT UP to hike a distance and find a sole logbook! This is a family sport! My kids love the sport because it is a treasure hunt of sorts! They could care less about the logbook! That is as interesting to them as Barney is to us adults. Geocaching is a CLEAN FAMILY SPORT and I feel we need to stand up for our rights as the "public" in public lands! Extreemly few people out there have it in their minds to go out and intentionally damage and TRASH public lands!! That is simply not our intentions! What is the BLM so worried about?? EVERY geocacher I have met so far has been environmentally conscious! Remember one of our slogans "Cache in - trash out"?

 

[This message has been edited by bbnot2busy (edited 06 August 2001).]

[Guest navdog]

PERMIT OR REGISTRATION ON BLM LAND

 

Would a permit just give you permission to place a cache or would registration of a cache under your name require you to be responsible for that cache at that location?

[Guest y2kmagazine]

The start of this thread talked of a local BLM office looking into caching - see that is the problem... the local office, even if they say OK, would be overrulled by the regional office that is overseen by the district office which is overseen by the state then national office. All these bloated bureacrats jaw jacking to collect pay at our expense while ruining their employer's (us) fun. MORONS.

 

It'll be years of debates and long winded studies and reports and millions of taxpayer dollars down the crapper before ANYTHING gets done at the federal level over this. BLOAT, BLOAT, BLOAT

[Guest jeremy]

I'm trying to figure out why these topics are 95% thoughtful discourse and 5% generalization and namecalling. If I spit in your face would you want to talk to me? Or compromise?

 

Come on.

 

to: bbnot2busy

I prefer to keep the toys in the caches. That's what a geocache is and should be. I don't think it's the size of the cache that is the issue but the existence of one.

 

to: navdog

Not sure what a permit would mean. That's what compromises are all about. I would expect optimally would be to speak with a land manager to find out the "safe areas" and hide them there.

 

Jeremy

[Guest bunkerdave]

I have no idea what the BLM wants from us. That lack of knowledge - on both sides - is why we are doing this. I cannot imagine that if they really knew what we are all about, they would take the position they have taken. I may prove to be wrong, but if I am, then all the freedom and openness and due process that many good men have died for will have lost some of its luster, in my eyes.

 

It is somewhat clear to me that what the land managers want is for land users to make their job easier, not harder. Hopefully we are already doing this by picking up trash and practicing good outdoor etiquette. While I have never done it myself, I understand they take pretty seriously the tips from users about other users who violate the land use regulations.

 

Just a couple of random thoughts I thought I would pass on.

[Guest Utahbill]

First I have to admit to being a "buerocrat". I work for a local city issuing permits to dig in the road. I know in my job I am very, very, hesitant to issue a permit when I do not understand the activity and situation. I can understand the BLM's concerns because I doubt they really understand what caching is all about. I don't believe the agency is out to get us. They just fear what they do not understand. For instance imagine their thoughts if they took a look at Ed Hall's map of Utah. It could be alarming until you consider 90 percent of the caches are in urban areas. Furthermore the caches on BLM land have a low visitation rate. Dave's Muley Point cache is a great example. It has been on the ground for months and has had three people visit it's site. Dave placing it, one log, and the BLM employee stealing it. Perhaps if they are educated they will become more understanding.

On a more negative note... I know all to well what permits mean, remember I deal in them all day. Just coming up with the permit process would probably take a year or more. Approvals will take days or weeks. Inevitably fees will be charged.

I don't feel permits should be required considering the other current activities on BLM land. If diplomacy fails I advocate virtual caches. If the BLM wants to limit virtual cahces, they can start by pulling all the guide books off of Barnes and Nobles shelves.

[Guest y2kmagazine]

Dave - a real noble jesture writing that letter... but as I said earlier: they will read it while on the payroll, you wrote it on your free time and in the end, likely a waste. You are dealing with one tiny corner of the BLM. The BLM and most every other gov't agency (sorry, utahbill) are bloated, err on the side of caution due to ignorance, wanting to substantiate their existence, keep themselves busy, etc. You getting an OK from that one office a) doesn't help anyone anywhere else and will be for naught when the higher up bureaucrats get wind of their not being able to debate this issue, show off their power, missed having the chance to waste hours being part of the debate and nix the decision made at the lower level.

 

They have to take their time, research to death the concepts and drag things out to prove they need to stay employed. If you breezed through every permit you issue utahbill, you could go home early and after a while, they would say why do we need utahbill, he only works a 1/2 day (constituents would be happier for the less grief he inflicted, but he would be working himself out of a job). So bureaucrats, rather than come in knowing the area they are in charge of, they need things s-p-e-l-l-e-d out so things take longer and their bosses say, wow, what a hard worker he is. And his boss is happy because he has a feifdom under him - utahbill and all the others that are involved in issueing permits, etc. So what that in the private sector / privatized operations, they ALWAYS do it with less people. Because they have a profit margin. In government, there is NO accountability for the bloat 'oh, we are taking our time and being deliberate about this geocaching issue / permit issue because we are looking out for your well being'. Having people come to the boss and having people under him, gives the boss a feeling of power, so he's happy. Bill ensures he gets his paycheck, government payrolls are proven to ratchet up over time - bill's working soooo hard (giving people a hard time / dragging his feet approving things or being able to nix the project on a valid basis) that we need to get another person in the fiefdom of his boss. All this does is cost taxpayers more and in this case, masks who the real person we need to check with to bow down to in the BLM and get an OK that will stick. A sham, a shame.

[Guest Sluggo]

I feel obligated to weigh in here. (No pun intended).

 

I am the poster boy for couch potatoes. I am 53 years old, I weighed (a few months ago) 360lbs. In the last 5 years (previous to June 2001) I did not visit any city, county, or national parks, BLM managed land, public wildlife refuges, ecology preserves or wilderness areas. I did not drive around the countryside looking at the scenery or for/at interesting places. The exact same thing can be said for my wife (except the age and weight).

 

Then I discovered Geocaching while surfing the web. Though my wife didn?t think the game made much sense, she was willing to go along as long as it got me ?off the couch?.

 

Since then we spend all our spare time, hunting caches, placing caches, and scouting for cache sites. My weight is down about 30 lbs. My blood sugar is down (I am diabetic). My stress level is down. We spend more (quality) time together. We have gotten other family members involved. The list goes on and on. As a result I have visited (since June) city, county, and national parks (not for geocaching), BLM managed land, public wildlife refuges, ecology preserves and wilderness areas. I have driven around the countryside, for hours, looking at the scenery or for/at interesting places.

 

It would probably be over-dramatic to make a statement like ?geocaching saved my life?, but that is very near the truth. So now I am a Geocacher (with a big G) and there is a land-use/permitting issue rearing its ugly head. So, what should I do? Go back to the couch? Become an official dissident? Say ugly things about the people in charge of our public lands who are trying to do their job with little or no resources? I DON?T THINK THAT IS THE ANSWER!

 

I think the answer is a dialog with everyone that needs to understand geocaching in order to make a decision about whether it will be allowed on the land that they are accountable for managing. The BLM and other agencies were not charged with the responsibility of getting Sluggo ?off the couch?. They were charged with making sure that land use served the needs of the people. But because geocaching got me ?off the couch? I am now responsible to PROVE TO THEM, that geocaching (when done responsibly) can actually create stewardship of the land in individuals (like me) who didn?t give a hoot about land use 5 years ago. We can WORK AS A TEAM and help them show that they are discharging their responsibilities appropriately while allowing us to responsibly conduct geocaching activities.

 

So Dave (and Jeremy), count me in! I will travel whenever and wherever it takes to get this dialog started on the right foot and protect the game/sport/hobby that I have (in a few short months) come to love.

 

I believe that we can demonstrate that the geocaching community, a loose-knit organization, without any (official) governing body can demonstrate stewardship of the land and act responsibly when participating in a game/hobby that we love.

 

Thanks for letting me say what I feel I have to say.

 

Sluggo

 

[As an aside: I have some ideas that might put us in a position to be OFFICIAL partners with the NPS, BLM, F&WC, etc. Something along the lines of the Civil Air Patrol, which has saved the taxpayers millions of dollars conducting search and rescue operations. Don't forget the geocacher who caught the poachers. {Dave/Jeremy contact me.}]

[Guest EyezOfTheWorld]

Sluggo,

 

I just wanted to say that I'm happy for you. Truly. That's great that you're getting out and about in this (mostly) great land of ours. There are so many wonderful places to see and spend time in, where you can step back 100 years and add a few years to your life. I hope you can be a help to allow more widespread geocaching but really, i think, more importantly, be an inspiration to others to get off the couch and see what's out there!

 

Look out Congress, Here Comes Sluggo!

[Guest Ginger]

In today's age of electronics..(that gave us the GPS) we have tv's, vcr's, nintendo, playstation...anything and everything to keep kids "out" of nature. I have a 10 year old son who lives and breathes by his playstation. He thought it was the best thing since sliced bread. Then came GEOCACHING! He gets more of a "rush" looking for these caches than he does sitting inside on his butt watching tv, playing playstation, and lets not forget the junkfood he is inhaling while doing these "activites, or lack of". I believe bunkerdave was wanting "couch-potatos" to come forward. Well, you can move us to the front of the pack. I grew up in Central Illinois, since we have started caching, I have visited 6 parks within a 40 mile radius of my parents that I had no idea even exsisted. I just wish I had found out about this a long time ago, instead of the beginning of June.

Thanks bunkerdave (of course Jeremy, too) for being willing to stand up to BLM for our "cause".

 

CACHE ON!

[Guest Ginger]

In today's age of electronics..(that gave us the GPS) we have tv's, vcr's, nintendo, playstation...anything and everything to keep kids "out" of nature. I have a 10 year old son who lives and breathes by his playstation. He thought it was the best thing since sliced bread. Then came GEOCACHING! He gets more of a "rush" looking for these caches than he does sitting inside on his butt watching tv, playing playstation, and lets not forget the junkfood he is inhaling while doing these "activites, or lack of". I believe bunkerdave was wanting "couch-potatos" to come forward. Well, you can move us to the front of the pack. I grew up in Central Illinois, since we have started caching, I have visited 6 parks within a 40 mile radius of my parents that I had no idea even exsisted. I just wish I had found out about this a long time ago, instead of the beginning of June.

Thanks bunkerdave (of course Jeremy, too) for being willing to stand up to BLM for our "cause".

 

CACHE ON!

[Guest Ginger]

BRAVO SLUGGO!! That's great!! Glad to have you as part of "our team".

[Guest Ginger]

BRAVO SLUGGO!! That's great!! Glad to have you as part of "our team".

[Guest navdog]

Jeremy,

Would it be possible to put out an e-mail to all registered geocachers about the process with the BLM so that Bunkerdave could get more testimonials like the ones above from Sluggo and Ginger. I'm not sure how many people use the forum pages here or are aware of the potential problems we may be up against.

 

[This message has been edited by navdog (edited 07 August 2001).]

[Guest jeremy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by navdog:

Jeremy,

Would it be possible to put out an e-mail to all registered geocachers about the process with the BLM so that Bunkerdave could get more testimonials like the ones above from Sluggo and Ginger

---

 

Sure. I'll send it in the next cache notification emailer.

[Guest bunkerdave]

If the testimonials could all be posted to one thread, I could just print it off and send it with my proposal. That would save me a ton of time compiling it. I will start the thread immediately.

 

------------------

David Wallentine

dwallent34@yahoo.com

[Guest Utahbill]

This is OK with the BLM http://www.sltrib.com/08072001/utah/120221.htm

 

Geocaching is not.

 

Go figure.

[Guest WaylandersMA]

UtahBill,

 

A week ago I was trying to find a small container on Muley Point that was confiscated by BLM. Two days later I was enjoying Shafer trail that wanders through the area described in the story. The trail ends at the Potash drying lakes of phosphate in Potash Utah. 400 acres of chemically dyed blue ponds to enhance the evaporation so we can all use the phosphate to make green golf courses and lawns.

Go figure is right.

[Guest bbnot2busy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Utahbill:

This is OK with the BLM http://www.sltrib.com/08072001/utah/120221.htm

 

Geocaching is not.

 

Go figure.

---

 

You GOTTA love the BLM!!! They are GREAT!! Heaven forbid we geocachers leave a few footprints!!

 

[This message has been edited by bbnot2busy (edited 07 August 2001).]

[Guest BigDoggie]

The reaction of the bureaucrats is not surprising, once you understand the basic nature of the govt worker. That basic nature, from the guy who hauls trash at your local city park to your state's US Senator, is this: That person will NEVER have a better job than being on the public payroll, and knows it, and will protect that job at all costs.

 

No bureaucrat has ever been fired, nor will ever be fired, for saying NO. Yet, if he should say YES, there is a non-zero probability that "SOMETHING COULD HAPPEN" and injury/damage could result... and he might get fired because of it.

 

Sure, SOMETHING COULD HAPPEN. But, isn't this true of EVERY activity that the govt authorizes in the parks? Hiking is allowed... but someone could booby-trap the trails. Camping is allowed, but someone could plant explosives in a firepit. Wading is allowed, but someone could dump broken glass in the wading area. Cabin rentals are allowed, but people could bring/use drugs/liquor/alcohol/weapons. Toilets are allowed, but people could put superglue on the toilet seats.

 

This last one pushes it a bit... but isn't the basic premise true? With a bit of thought, vandals or other criminals could sabotage ANY allowed park activity.

 

When this happens, you don't close the parks, you catch and prosecute the criminals.

 

[This message has been edited by BigDoggie (edited 07 August 2001).]

[Guest WayOutWest]

I spoke with a land use officer at the BLM field office in Moab today(not the same one quoted in the newspaper article re: oil exploration). She had not heard of GeoCaching previously, so I described it to her. She stated that GeoCaching appears to fall under the land use category as "casual use", so no permits are required. She did not in any way seem concerned about our activity, and in fact found the idea of caching interesting.

So, I gave her the address to GeoCaching, and mentioned the Groundspeak forum and this thread. Was this prudent? I'd like to think so. It's possible that she has already read this thread, and perhaps other BLM employees will. The overwhelming majority of the posts are very positive and show a real desire to act proactively, before there is any problem: treat the land with respect(cache in-trash out); and(very important to the BLM) try to make their jobs easier. Also, other threads (such as exploding bugspray, National Parks, wildlife liability, difficulty ratings, etc) shows that we, as a community, are very interested in policing ourselves. Most importantly, the BLM employees have an opportunity to see how FUN this is, and what a bunch of swell folks are supporting it. It may even seem like enough fun that they become GeoCachers themselves(I know I started GeoCaching AFTER I found Jeremy's site-THANKS MUCHO, JEREMY!)-and if we can get a few people that make policy decisions wandering around with a GPS looking for hidden loot alongside of us, That's gotta be a good thing, right? Anyway, I believe that you guys are putting forth an image you can be proud of.

 

Now, back to the BLM-

I understand that while the Moab office seems to have no problem with it, but someone at the Monticello district apparently is a bit more aggressive (sorry, BunkerDave and BB), but it would be interesting to know whether the removals were at the request of supervisors or if it is an employee acting unilaterally. Regardless, there are many different districts and field offices of the BLM, and there will likely be many different attitudes as our activities become more common.

 

Well, this has been too long already, but let me close by saying that BunkerDave's proposed letter to the BLM along with a few dozen testimonials is RIGHT ON THE MONEY. If we can get copies of these into the hands of every land use manager at the local level, we will have strengthened our future position greatly. BunkerDave, let me know if I can help get a few copies distributed around here.

 

WayOutWest

rob@cassingham.com

[Guest bunkerdave]

The impression I got from the e-mail I received informing me of the removal of my cache is that there is one particularly zealous ranger who has taken it upon herself to remove the caches. The manager I spoke with was as much curious as anything.

 

I am not surprised that the Moab office was unconcerned about Geocaching. Certainly, with SUWA on their case on one hand, and the oil companies begging for approval on the other, they have plenty to do without worrying about a few ammo boxes full of trinkets. In spite of the HUGE growth of Geocaching in Utah this year, there are still only a handful of caches placed in the Grand County/San Juan County area of SE Utah. The area is simply so remote that most people don't go down there, especially the San Juan area.

[Guest tecmage]

er been on land managed by the BLM, but I have lived in states where "property" (read this as land) issues and uses are big.

 

When we placed our caches here in Iowa, we did work with the local parks folks, and after explaining what Geocaching is and isn't, got at the most enthusiastic responses, and at worse a neutral statement that the park district is not opposed to Geocaching at this time. The key (as mentioned before) is that they folks hired to manage these public spaces were unaware of how this activity works.

 

BunkerDave, I support you 100%- educate the BLM folks. If we don't start where we as citizens have the most influence, then we will never see this resolved in a way that satisfies us.

 

There has been a lot of complaining about having to ask permission to use public land, but the truth is that no one have the right to do whatever we please because the space is publicly-owned. We get a few folks around here that would never think of driving down a public highway after a few beers, but will get on a lake, in a public park,in a boat or jetski after a couple of six-packs.

 

Dave, Tracy and myself have been to several wonderful locations throughout Iowa and Missouri. State Parks, County Parks, and etc. I have and will say again that we are thankful that someone took the time to give us a reason to get outside and enjoy those public spaces. We are both developing a better appreciation for these spaces, and are spending much more time outdoors in these spaces- if for no other reason than to enjoy being in these spaces.

 

Richard

[Guest Eoghan]

BunkerDave,

Besides using testimonials, you might also consider the possibility of a petition. A well phrased proposal backed with a huge list of registered voters is a tried and true way of pulling an issue to the top of the pile and letting officials know that there is a real constituency backing it. Thanks for your work and keep us updated!

[Guest bunkerdave]

As always, numerous channels are in place for bringing issue to the public eye. I prefer to use the most direct and least confrontational methods first. If that fails to produce the desired results, then other methods can be considered. I appreciate the cachers allowing me to proceed in this manner, as we are not yet to the point of needing to get petitions and such together, and given the dialogue I have had thus far, I doubt it will come to that.

[Guest bbnot2busy]

Here is an email I received from a friend that works for the BLM.

 

"I see we got a letter from someone in Washington state encouraging the BLM

to allow GeoCaching on BLM lands. Might I suggest that you put something on the website to encourage more folks to do that. Send letters (original, not just carbon copies) to local BLM offices as well as state and Washington D.C. offices.

GeoCaching seems like harmless family fun to me.

Good luck."

 

Looks like we all need to write as many positive letters we can to any local, state or national office of the BLM!!! Lets inundate them with mail to show them how many of us are interested in this CLEAN FAMILY SPORT!!!!

 

Here is a link of the address to all the BLM offices.

 

http://www.blm.gov/nhp/directory/index.htm

 

Lets all use some paper envelopes and stamps!!!!!

 

Jeremy, Please note the idea about putting something on the website to encourage people to write positive letters to the BLM offices in their areas. Would this be possible??

Thanks

[Guest bunkerdave]

I e-mailed the proposal to the Monticello BLM office yesterday, since the Field Manager said he would be sharing it with the other Managers in the state, I thought sending it that way would be easier to distribute. I agree, however, that paper letters always have greater effect because they show more thought and take more effort. So many people just shoot off an e-mail anymore, that letter writing is something of a lost art, especially as a course of action in political arenas. Perhaps I should submit a hard copy of the proposal to the BLM Headquarters, just so they have a "heads up" on what is going on? Anyone have the address?

[Guest CaptHawke]

quote:

---

Originally posted by bunkerdave:

Perhaps I should submit a hard copy of the proposal to the BLM Headquarters, just so they have a "heads up" on what is going on? Anyone have the address?

---

 

BLM addresses, phones, org chart:

http://www.blm.gov/nhp/directory/index.htm

[Guest suntzu]

I just printed this whole thread and personally handed it to the new national director of the BLM (A nice Utah Lady)

[Guest Alphawolf]

I just sold 45 (yes...forty Five) Garmin e-Trex legends to the U.S. Forest Service in Utah. I wonder what they have planned for them? Maybe a little Geocaching while on duty?

[Guest kcalexander]

ok to geocache in the National Forests but not in Wilderness areas. As well as that several of the Forest Service Personel admit to participating in this sport on Forest Lands. Seems like a double standard. I feel that this sport encourages kids to learn and respect the Wilderness. Well I had to let some steam out. Happy Geo-Caching. Ken

 

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Kcalexander