Bible Trivia Cache - Should this cache be posted?

[+honeychile]

I'm posting this poll on behalf of a geocaching friend of mine, at her request. She wants to post a Bible trivia cache. The questions used to determine the coordinates are from the Bible, using it as literature. Consider the following:

 

* The description does not endorse the Christian faith, but asks simple trivia questions that might appear on Jeopardy! or Trivial Pursuit under the category "Bible Trivia"

 

* There is nothing in the cache description encouraging the seeker to study the Bible, go to church, or making any judgments about anything or anyone.

 

* The answers to the questions are readily available to anyone of any faith as the Bible is available in any library or online in many places.

 

* There are no links to any religious sites, nor any inflammatory language.

 

* The contents of the cache itself do not contain any religious items.

 

There has been a question that the cache may be "commercial" in nature and that it may promote a religious agenda. My friend claims she has no agenda. She has hidden a sports trivia cache which has been very popular in our area, and is simply trying to post another interesting trivia cache.

 

What do you say? Please vote below. And please, let's not debate religion, first amendment rights, or anything else inflammatory.

 

By the way, and this is not intended to be a "suck up" speech, but please remember that geocaching.com is not a democracy. It is a monarchy and Jeremy is king. We forget this sometimes because he is a benign ruler of this gentle kingdom, and he kindly permits us the privilege of discussing these issues and making our feelings known; he often listens to us,too, hence this request for your opnion.

 

-honeychile-

 

'*+.,_,.+*'`'*+.,_A joyful heart is good medicine!_,.+*'`'*+.,_,.+*'`

[RossOlson]

Post it. Your friend shouldn't feel the need to justify herself. If she announces it as a Bible Trivia Cache individuals can make there own decsions on whether or not to view it.

[+CYBret]

I'd love a cache like that simply because there is NO way I'd be able to find a sports trivia cache!

 

Bret

 

"The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field.

When a man found it, he hid it again." Mt. 13:44

[+seneca]

There is nothing wrong with a cache having a particular theme, even though it might not be a theme that interests everyone. Theme caches should disclose the theme ahead of time. Some caches that were clearly promoting a religious agenda have drawn criticism - not because they were religious but because of their promotional nature. Your friend's cache is no different than one about sports trivia as far as I am concerned.

 

You may not agree with what I say, but I will defend, to your death, my right to say it!(it's a Joke, OK!)

[jnc1991]

I love the idea, in fact I plan to start one with my children soon. I think all caches should be acceptable as long as their theme or "agenda" is announced ahead of time and dont depart from what is tasteful...if you know what I mean. I know, I know...that is a fine line.

 

jnc

[+El Diablo]

When you get a group this large then you are bound to attract some idiots. By idiots I mean the person or persons that requested that this cache be archived.

 

If looking for a clue in the bible offends you...then don't look for the cache! Even if the cache was religous based...since when did religion become commercial? Well except for the TV preachers. As far as I know none of them have posted a cache with an offering plate in it.

 

If El Diablo has nothing against this...then who else has the right to complain?

 

El Diablo

 

Everything you do in life...will impact someone,for better or for worse.

[Tahosa and Sons]

This is the good old USA, we have all the freedoms we love. POST IT. And if you don't like it that is your choice. Remember a lot of countries won't let you have a choice.

Peace be with You.

 

The "Bushwhacker"

Exitus acta probat

>>--->

[+docKaos]

Commercial???!!!

 

I wasn't aware that asking a few questions about the Bible as part of the cache was commercial. If that's the case, I'd better archive "Three Hour Tour" post haste! Can't have those references to Gilligan's Island [©1987 Turner Pictures Entertainment] in there, now can we?

 

C'mon folks. This is just a bit ridiculous. I visited the cache and didn't feel like I was on a pilgramage to conversion. I've put Bibles in some of my own caches. I've used Tupperware [tm. of Tupperware Worldwide] for cache containers. Guess I'm trying to extoll the virtues of Tupperware over Brand-X.

 

Yeah, I'm carrying this to the level of absurdity, but that's where this game/sport is headed if we start nit-picking everyone's caches. If the cache had been hidden on church grounds, where the cacher would have been led to a "business", I might be able to understand this. The cache was located in a city park. I didn't even have to sign a statement of faith in the logbook. Amazing! Mind you, I would still attempt to be the first finder even if the cache contained the Koran, Qabalah or Mao's Little Red Book. Nine times out of ten, the hunt, not the cache contents, is the allure.

 

The bottom line is, unless someone can convincingly demonstrate how a few questions about the Bible can constitute a "commercial" angle, I'd say there are two choices: either allow the cache or find a more logical reason for it's archival.

 

IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE FOCUS/LOCATION/ETC. OF A CACHE YOU DON'T HAVE TO SEARCH FOR IT!

[+david&diana]

We found this cache before it was archived and thought it was a great cache. There was no religious agenda and the contents were no different than many other caches we've found. The only thing religious about the cache is that you answer Bible trivia questions to find the coordinates and that's obvious to anyone reading the cache description.

[+EraSeek]

Go for it. Sounds like it fits to me.

 

[+Cachier]

The word is good for those who seek it.

 

"When you find it, its always in the last place you look."

[+travisl]

As an atheist, I say post it. I'd hunt for it, too.

 

Just don't complain when I decide to post a cache based on teachings of the Branch Davidians.

 

"Why don't you just ask somebody?"

 

"No, no. I've got a map. Don't worry about that."

[+travisl]

As an atheist, I say post it. I'd hunt for it, too.

 

Just don't complain when I decide to post a cache based on teachings of the Branch Davidians.

 

"Why don't you just ask somebody?"

 

"No, no. I've got a map. Don't worry about that."

[gono]

Great Big DITTO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by RossOlson:

Post it. Your friend shouldn't feel the need to justify herself. If she announces it as a Bible Trivia Cache individuals can make there own decsions on whether or not to view it.

---

 

Gono

Harrisonburg, Va.

[jnc1991]

Not that I want to go down this road but why would an athiest want to do a Branch Davidian cache???

 

Mega Ditto's on the "This is the good old USA, we have all the freedoms we love." People have died,are dying, and will die for these freedoms. People...if you are offended, stay away from it, period! I would not go to a cache that was for trading pornographic material (hope I dont start something)...so don't come to my Christian cache if you are going to be offended.

 

We really have to stop being so stinking sensitive!!! I hated how honeychile sounded like she felt she had to make her case so as not to offend. Why does this PC crap always have to come in and ruin all the fun?

 

JNC

[+briansnat]

I'm far from a holy roller, but if you are stating all the facts in this case,then this cache is totally appropriate. Looking for clues in the Bible is no different from looking for clues in a Steven King novel, a Picasso painting or the Magna Carta.

 

Being an agnostic, I find it humorous that so many people are so scared by the Bible. I think Wendell Phillips said "If anything in the universe can't stand discussion, then let it crack". So many "progressives" and "open minded" people have this knee jerk reaction when the Bible, or God is mentioned. They want to suppress all references to them. That's probably what's going on here

 

"Life is a daring adventure, or it is nothing" - Helen Keller

[+rldill]

I've not found the cache, but I have looked at the listing http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=32606

for it and I see no reason that it should not be listed, after all are we not in the USA. Takeing the site off is the same as the court wanting to change the Pledge of Allegiance, and oh what a stink. If you are offended Don't look for it, BUT LET ME IF I WANT TO.

 

Take a chance or you'll never know. Let your spirits soar!

[+Centaur]

Sounds fine to me.

 

On the first day, god said "Let there be light!"

On the second day, the power company put in the meter.

 

-Centaur

[+Mudfrog]

HHmmmmm, this is a theme cache and it was clearly labeled as such. The fact that you use a Bible to look up clues is no different than using any other book or historical marker for that purpose. As stated, no one is forcing beliefs on anyone and they are certainly not trying to trick you into becoming a Christian.

 

I just dont think this one falls under the distinction of being commercial in nature. Again, if you are offended, then dont go looking for this one!

[Milgren]

I enjoy any and all puzzle-type caches. I prefer my cache difficulty to be mental rather than physical!

 

----------------------------------------------------------

Until you have the courage to lose sight of the shore,

You will not know the terror of being forever lost at sea.

[mdmax371]

quote:

---

Originally posted by rldill:

I've not found the cache, but I have looked at the listing http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=32606

for it and I see no reason that it should not be listed, after all are we not in the USA. Takeing the site off is the same as the court wanting to change the Pledge of Allegiance, and oh what a stink. If you are offended Don't look for it, BUT LET ME IF I WANT TO.

 

Take a chance or you'll never know. Let your spirits soar!

---

 

I totally agree with rldill, can the powers that be please tell me how this is a commercial cache! Also can you tell me why it even got listed if it's really a commercial cache? What do you guy's do check the cache before you allow it to be posted, then post it, then a couple days later decide it's not fit for the site. I have seen on here so many times with the game itself and travel bugs that this is just a game play it how you want, well it seems to me we play it how the powers that be want us to. I can see if it was promoting a business for monetary gains but I can't see how looking up bible trivia will hurt anyone. My daughter and I play this game because one of the most important things to me is spending time with her. My daughter is a very active kid, church activities, piano, singing lessons, karate and soccer just to name a few, so giving up geocaching wouldn't be that big of a deal, except we love to get out and enjoy nature. We do go to church and trivia caches of this nature would be a lot of fun for her. I personally am tired of the people in charge of archiving caches. Much more of this and my gps will go back to being used for traveling only.

[+wcgreen]

quote:

---

Originally posted by honeychile:

There has been a question that the cache may be "commercial" in nature....

---

 

I saw Jeremy's archival ruling, but I do not understand the "commercialness" of this cache. If it refers to the need to have a Bible (i.e., if you don't have one, you have to buy one), then this is a silly objection. The KJV Bible is available on the Web; one can check Bibles out of the library; one can sneak into a motel and swipe the Gideon Bible from a nightstand.

 

If this is the root of the "commercial" ruling, then any cache that requires specialized equipment, like 4-wheel drive, is commercial because I have only 2-wheel drive and I'd need to buy a new vehicle to get to the cache.

 

If this is not the case, then Jeremy needs some new rules to cover required archival of caches with which he objects.

 

wcgreen

 

--

Wendy Chatley Green

wcgreen@eudoramail.com

[+infosponge]

If you allow a bible-based cache, then you also have to allow one from the Scientologists and whomever else feels they can do some "education" in this way...

That being said, I wouldn't find the bible cache offensive, just a little annoying.

[+TeamJiffy]

With all respect, I think J.I. made a mistake on this cache..

 

The owner clearly stated up front that it was Bible-themed. They said if you don't like that, don't hunt the cache. As far as I know, it doesn't contain items such as "5 sins forgiven for the price of 3" coupons, good "this week only at the 1st Church of Wherever". As far as I know, this cache does not say "come to church XYZ in town ABC", with the placer of the cache somehow benefiting materially if a hunter decides to later visit church XYZ in town ABC.

 

I'd like to compare this to a cache I hunted (I did not create this cache!) based on "Fellowship of the Ring". The final location contained a number inexpensive Lord of the Rings items. Naturally, even though the owners didn't say to do this, you'd want to keep with the theme of the cache, so you may want to leave a "Lord of the Rings" themed object as well. To solve the puzzle, you'd either have to borrow from the library, or purchase from the store, a copy of "Fellowship of the Ring", either way, the Tolkien family estate made money somewhere along the line for the book, and Tolkien Enterprises profited from the licensing agreement for the items placed in the cache, and the new LotR items that hunters may themselves place in the cache.

 

Sounds like this cache is a magnet for profit and commercialism.

 

I just cannot, at any realistic level, distinguish between the fantastic Lord of the Rings/Fellowship of the Ring cache I hunted and this cache, other than the obvious points of terrain difficulty, location, that are irrelevent for this discussion.

 

Until I understand what distinguishes this archived cache from the Fellowship of the Ring cache, I'd like to understand why they are treated differently.

 

Obviously, as everyone can tell, I am absolutely NOT arguing that the Fellowship of the Ring cache get archived! I believe this Bible cache should be unarchived, as long as the "as far as I know" statements are indeed true.

 

-Joel

[+Wadcutter]

Actually the Good Book supports Geocaching. There are several places where Geocaching is discussed and it tells us to go forth and Geocache.....

 

Matthew 7:7

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:"

 

While Matthew 7:7 may be directed to most of you I believe the following verse, particularly the last 1/2, applies more to me....

 

Ecclesiastes 8:17

"Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labour to seek it out, yet he shall not find it; yea farther; though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it."

[+bartacus]

quote:

---

Originally posted by wcgreen:

...then any cache that requires specialized equipment, like 4-wheel drive, is commercial because I have only 2-wheel drive and I'd need to buy a new vehicle to get to the cache.

---

 

I also found this one before it was archived. I'm neither a regular church attendee, nor a "true believer", but I hunted the cache because it was fun. The trivia questions simply required a little research, and I did all of mine online. It was no different than my eleventh-grade english teacher that had us read the Old Testament as a literary tale. The cache had no religious content (it was actually full of dollar-store tools and toys!), and was in a nice family-friendly park.

 

On the other hand, I have seen several other caches that vary in their subtlety:

 

There are three caches with "bible" in the title, including:

 

Bible Thumper II, which requires Bible research, and ...

 

Bible Thumper

 

There are at least 23 caches with "church" in the title, including:

 

Churchbound, and ...

 

The Christian Cache, by Team Online-Christian.com, which is by far the most overtly commercial cache in my list.

 

True, this is Jeremy's sandbox, and we're all enjoying playing here, but I believe his archival was a knee-jerk reaction to complaints from a local cacher.

 

[+VentureForth]

And I'm not using that name as profanity...

 

Christians are the most untolerated group of people who are expected to be tolerant of everything they have a moral disagreement with.

 

Since when is Christianity synonomous with Commercial?

 

Jeremy - You've always had an even hand with tolerance and fairness, but to label a cache as commercial because it has to do with the Bible is no more tolerant (or commercial) than expecting me to tolerate people with a gender preference I don't agree with.

 

Sheesh!

 

---------------

Go! And don't be afraid to get a little wet!

[+Lazyboy & Mitey Mite]

Both of them are placed by the J-Freaks. The caches are ammo boxes with combination locks. In order to unlock the box you have to look up certain scriptures to figure out the numbers. Like now many times was Paul shipwrecked. The scriptures are cited so it's easy to find. Here are the links. Check them out, very good idea.

 

Bible Thumper

Bible Thumper II

 

Never Squat With Yer Spurs On

[+infosponge]

quote:

---

Since when is Christianity synonomous with Commercial?

---

 

Not in the sense of "making money" (although that's debatable) but in the sense of "promoting a product or service".

That being said, there's plenty of other caches that do the same thing that were approved...

[+VentureForth]

What is commercialism? It's the providing of goods and/or services FOR PROFIT.

 

I have a problem with a Church (even though I am a right wing fanatical conspirist) putting out a cache with nothing to it but a note saying "The Real Treasure Is Inside. Come back Sunday Morning at 8:30 or 10:00."

 

I DON'T have a problem with the same cache if it has good, tradable goodies in it and a little note about their church.

 

I don't have problems with youth groups putting together caches. I don't have problems with religious tracts in cache unless the log says something like "Took gold watch, left one way ticket to Heaven".

 

The End

 

---------------

Go! And don't be afraid to get a little wet!

[NightHiker]

A cache by any other name is still a cache. The idea is to bring variety and ingenuity to the game, not to worry about reactions. If a Bible cache offends you, don't look for it, but don't make the decision for me. Using the same logic I wouldn't be able to go after any caches because they don't have a Christian theme. Most of the fun is in the searching, not what's actually in the cache.

 

[This message was edited by NightHiker on August 20, 2002 at 08:55 AM.]

[+DenaliNW]

I think Jeremy goofed here. I don't see how how this qualifies as a commercial cache. Maybe he can explain the inconsistency . . .

[iryshe]

VentureForth, we define commerical another way under the cache listing requrements.

 

"Commercial by this definition is not restricted to monetary solicitations. Caches posted for religious, political, or social agendas will not be posted either."

 

The key word here is "agendas." If this pursues a religious agenda it will not be posted.

 

Keep in mind that the web site is not America, or run by the government. As a community we create our own rules and decide on these topics.

 

What we're ruling here is if it breaks the rules. If you're trolling for converts it is not appropriate, but if it is just research to answer questions to find a cache, that would be fine. And that's what it looks like the majority believes in this case.

 

I have unarchived the cache and changed the name to "Bible Facts Find" which is more appropriate.

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

[iryshe]

Hmm... I think I'll change it to rules on solicitation. Commercialism is too restricting.

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

[+sbell111]

While its true that some may get hacked, I don't believe that it violates any rules and therefore should be posted.

[RainbowTVP]

I am glad you reversed this decision!

 

I have no problem with potentially offensive caches, as long as they are clearly described.

 

As a Christian, I would *love* to do this cache or one like it.

 

As a Christian, I would not object to others making caches for things that offend me, as long as I know about it in the description so I can avoid it.(excepting things that are illegal )

 

Tara P

 

Tara P

[RainbowTVP]

I am glad you reversed this decision!

 

I have no problem with potentially offensive caches, as long as they are clearly described.

 

As a Christian, I would *love* to do this cache or one like it.

 

As a Christian, I would not object to others making caches for things that offend me, as long as I know about it in the description so I can avoid it.(excepting things that are illegal )

 

Tara P

 

Tara P

[+MissAngele]

Hey Everyone! I am new to the forum thing. I am not very computer savvy and requested help from a fellow cacher to assist me in this poll. I am the owner of the Faithful Facts Find that has been the topic of discussion. I assure you that there is NOTHING in the cache of a commercial nature or a go to this church plea! To the contrary, there are tools, Budweiser racing stickers, kids books, combo locks and all the normal stuff that we leave in caches. Everything is new and mostly from the Dollar Tree or Walmart (God forbid, I am not trying to give them a plug). The physical cache is an ammo can. The only reference to religion at the cache site is perhaps the name of the cache written with stickers on the side of the ammo can. My only purpose was to make it a more challenging cache rather than to just post some coordinates and say "go get it". I took all the trivia from a childrens Bible that I FOUND in another very cool cache! I may have left a children story book in it that might have been a bible story. I really can't remember. However, it would have been found at the Dollar Tree, too. I previously placed a Sports Trivia cache that got a great response and still does. I had to get loads of help with the trivia. I am NOT a sports person. It was just to make it more fun. I have very little free time outside of home and work. This was my attempt at allowing some of the "hunt" to be done before you have to hit the trails. On another note, being a Christian, I DO NOT appologize for this line of trivia. Just as I am a big fan of NASCAR and would not be sorry for listing trivia about that! (What a comparison!)

 

I am sooooo appreciative of everyone that was willing to voice their support for this. It had nothing to do with trying to be "commercial or religious" and I am THRILLED to see that Jeremy put it back into action! It is a cool little cache, so come and check it out if you are in this neck of the woods! Thanks again!

 

MissAngele

[jnc1991]

Being new to the sport I was troubled to see yet another attack on religious freedom going on inside such a good thing. Like you said, most Christians do not cry foul when they are forced to tolerate others beliefs and actions however we face intolerance and censorship daily. I did not want to suggest it but if it became such a problem that we could not have a cache that mentions God or Jesus ...I would want someone to start a website just for that purpose. I am glad Jeremy reversed his decision. A small victory at best.

 

I plan to come visit this cache soon. Its famous!

 

JNC

[Dinoprophet]

quote:

---

MissAngele:

My only purpose was to make it a more challenging cache rather than to just post some coordinates and say "go get it".

---

I'm always thinking of different ways of generating coordinates with number puzzles, and the Bible idea had crossed my mind. I had actually been thinking along the lines of providing the text of a verse, and the chapter and verse numbers would give you the coords. Much more difficult, and probably more controversial, as it would require biblical knowledge going into it (though from a literary standpoint, it shouldn't be seen as any different than asking for, say, the act and scene numbers for a Shakespeare quote).

 

I'm glad your cache was un-archived.

 

[iryshe]

quote:

---

Originally posted by jnc1991:

Being new to the sport I was troubled to see yet another attack on religious freedom going on inside such a good thing.

---

 

You're totally off base here. You're confusing your right to worship with your right to preach through Geocaching. If it's a government institution then fine, complain about your religious freedoms being restricted.

 

In your life (at least in the US) you have the freedom of religion. For this web site we try to create tolerance, but restrict anyone trying to force their own values on others. The sport was meant to be open and not meant to contribute to any religious, social or political agenda. The topics are meant to be light, and the caches "fun." The thought of any one religion (or social or political group) using geocaching frankly appalls me. So I try to make sure that soliciting does not occur.

 

In this case the cache was on the fence. It can be misunderstood as a recruiting tool, though as a factfinding mission it is fine as a cache. I welcome any other group that wishes to use their own "good book" to place similar caches if they like. But, like a Gideon bible, if there is an overabundance of bible caches we will readdress this issue.

 

Cheers,

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

[+seneca]

quote:

---

Originally posted by jnc1991:

.... I was troubled to see yet another attack on religious freedom going on inside such a good thing. JNC

---

There was no attack on religious freedom going on here, and to characterize it as such is not helpful to this very positive and useful discussion (which I guess can now be closed with a happy ending )

 

You may not agree with what I say, but I will defend, to your death, my right to say it!(it's a Joke, OK!)

[+seneca]

quote:

---

Originally posted by jnc1991:

.... I was troubled to see yet another attack on religious freedom going on inside such a good thing. JNC

---

There was no attack on religious freedom going on here, and to characterize it as such is not helpful to this very positive and useful discussion (which I guess can now be closed with a happy ending )

 

You may not agree with what I say, but I will defend, to your death, my right to say it!(it's a Joke, OK!)

[+Number 6]

Please check out the following:

 

Reply to "religious cache"

 

Reply to "Found first cache full of religous goodies"

 

Often the best evangelism occurs by just being a good witness.

 

Be Seeing You!

[+Dan_Edwards]

quote:

---

Originally posted by travisl:

As an atheist, I say post it. I'd hunt for it, too.

 

Just don't complain when I decide to post a cache based on teachings of the Branch Davidians.

 

_"Why don't you just ask somebody?"

 

"No, no. I've got a map. Don't worry about that."_

---

 

Or even better a cache based on the many Centari Republic gods.

 

As one other atheist I would have to be in complete agreement. Hindu, Muslim, Whatever, its all the same to me. If it's a cache I will hunt it.

 

Actually I am very much against the ultra PC world. If someone wants to create a cache with just about any theme, I got no problem with it. They placed it, but I don't have to hunt it.

 

A = A

[+Dan_Edwards]

quote:

---

Originally posted by travisl:

As an atheist, I say post it. I'd hunt for it, too.

 

Just don't complain when I decide to post a cache based on teachings of the Branch Davidians.

 

_"Why don't you just ask somebody?"

 

"No, no. I've got a map. Don't worry about that."_

---

 

Or even better a cache based on the many Centari Republic gods.

 

As one other atheist I would have to be in complete agreement. Hindu, Muslim, Whatever, its all the same to me. If it's a cache I will hunt it.

 

Actually I am very much against the ultra PC world. If someone wants to create a cache with just about any theme, I got no problem with it. They placed it, but I don't have to hunt it.

 

A = A

[+rldill]

Thanks, Jeremy for un-archiving the cache.

 

Take a chance or you'll never know. Let your spirits soar!

[+wcgreen]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dan Edwards:

Or even better a cache based on the many Centari Republic gods.

---

 

I'd do one on the Book of G'Quon, but I couldn't call it "Book of G'Quon Thumper"--one should never thump the Book of G'Quon.

 

wcgreen

 

--

Wendy Chatley Green

wcgreen@eudoramail.com

[Rigour]

Kudos to Jeremy for reversing himself on this one.

[+TeamJiffy]

Jeremy is right on target with the 'solicitation' idea - that conveys the intent behind the restriction in a very generel way for all cases of the restriction, and causes less confusion than 'commercial'.

 

I support a non-solicitation rule 100%.