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Guest jeremy

Geocache Coordinates "Open Season"

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Guest jeremy

hes in the forums. I will be working on the edit page so you can essentially make a cache "open season" for folks to take those coordinates and do what they want to with them on other sites. It'll just be a checkbox.

 

I know this is a sore subject (but I ask it for a reason). Should it disallow folks from using it on a commercial site?

 

Keep in mind on these caches I will have to say that I can not be responsible for how the cache coordinates may be used on other sites, validity of those coordinates, nor am I responsible for the updating of caches on sites that decide to take these coordinates. Once those coordinates are taken from my web site, I really lose all control on how they're used.

 

Unfortunately I may take some heat from the park services, since I've been telling them that I will voluntarily remove caches from the web site at their request, and contacting the cache owners.

 

I have also had some situations where a cache was too dangerous to reach (there was a live electrical wire that had fallen near the cache, for example), so I had to archive it temporarily. That won't happen anymore if other folks take the coordinates. But that's up to the cache owner. Same goes for liability and other risks involved with not knowing where your coordinates are shared.

 

I'd appreciate your feedback.

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Guest Farqhuarson

quote:
Originally posted by jeremy:

I think Scout came up with a great idea about ownership of caches in the forums. I will be working on the edit page so you can essentially make a cache "open season" for folks to take those coordinates and do what they want to with them on other sites. It'll just be a checkbox.

 

I know this is a sore subject (but I ask it for a reason). Should it disallow folks from using it on a commercial site?

 

Keep in mind on these caches I will have to say that I can not be responsible for how the cache coordinates may be used on other sites, validity of those coordinates, nor am I responsible for the updating of caches on sites that decide to take these coordinates. Once those coordinates are taken from my web site, I really lose all control on how they're used.

 

Unfortunately I may take some heat from the park services, since I've been telling them that I will voluntarily remove caches from the web site at their request, and contacting the cache owners.

 

I have also had some situations where a cache was too dangerous to reach (there was a live electrical wire that had fallen near the cache, for example), so I had to archive it temporarily. That won't happen anymore if other folks take the coordinates. But that's up to the cache owner. Same goes for liability and other risks involved with not knowing where your coordinates are shared.

 

I'd appreciate your feedback.


 

now that's a situation that is entirely acceptable in my view.

 

why something like this couldn't have been reached during the discussion before it got out of hand, im not sure. open discourse was all many of us were looking for (including myself), and not just being ignored.

 

as for the commericial site purposes, with free sites available, i don't know that a commerical site for cache data would be feasible unless the other features availabe would make it worth paying for. Which probably woulnd't happen. So i don't know that a "protection" against use on a commericial site would be neccessary, but i'm open to whatever on that case.

 

and it looks like i've got to do it again. apologize that is. I posted to the other thread where it looked like no kind of compromise was going to be made whatsoever.

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Guest cache_ninja

hmmm, i might say leave things as they are...but ill comment:

 

wont people have different definitions of a "commercial site"? i bet people will have all sort of different little qualms, i.e. anyone can use my cache info except if its on commercial url, or i dont want anyone to publish pics of my caches if they use them, or no spoilers, blah blah blah....if people want their cache posted somewhere else, they should submit it thereand understand what that place is doing with them....but i guess if someone says its "open season" on their cache, they subsequently have no right to get upset about what its used for...but i think to save yourself a headache, maybe it should be true "open season", i.e. commercial sites and everything, this would eliminate alot of discussion concerning what you should allow etc, and would potentially, be less time consuming for you later in terms of dealing with people using the info since, well, anyone can...

 

c/n

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Guest rediguana

I think that overall this would be a positive move for the community.

 

quote:
Originally posted by jeremy:

Unfortunately I may take some heat from the park services, since I've been telling them that I will voluntarily remove caches from the web site at their request, and contacting the cache owners.


 

If you do, can I make some suggestions. The sites that share the data should sit down and come up with some standards.

 

There should be mailing lists that any authority can post a coordinate to for removal from db's. I say lists because there may a different list for each country.

 

This provides them one point of contact - which as you assert Jeremy - is important for them. It also allows all reputable site maintainers to comply. This may keep them off your back about any changes to the control of the coord data.

 

Cheers RedIguana

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Guest rediguana

quote:
Should it disallow folks from using it on a commercial site?

 

I think this is a good suggestion. I believe that there are people out there who are doing it purely for the fun of it (I am). They may object to having the data farmed for use by a profit seeking entity. I believe it is within their rights to object to commercial entities making use of their time, effort and money. For those who do choose to let enterprises use their caches. Good on them, but each cache hider should have the right to choose.

 

Cheers RedIguana

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Guest IronHelix

eocaches is some websites having stale data.

 

Say for example Bob gets a dump on Monday. This dumb includes Joe's cache, which Joe archives on Wednesday. Bob's site however only downloads another dump every monday. So Joe's cache is listed as current for several more days.

Now say Bob forgets to do his dump. The data gets even more stale.

 

Obviously one wants no stale data if possible, which leaves two options:

1. Have Bobs site update in real time, IE download a new database/selection of relevant entries from Jeremy every time someome hits his site. And hope Jeremy has a very large bandwidth allotment...

2. Bobs site has no live Geocache data in it.

 

Now if Bob's site was updated say every hour by some sort of scripted system, this would be less of an issue. However that would still take alot of b/w on both sites. And Jeremy cant 'make' Bob update more.

 

(BTW, many wars have been started over disagreements such as this).

 

An 'opt in' to a public DB export would basically be 'its OK if this data is stale on someone else's site'.

Which is an excellent option all around.

 

On another note, I agree with the idea of requiring a "Geocache data courtesy of Geocaching.com" or similar, for one simple reason: Say Bill decides to make a 'commericial' site, IE you pay to use it or has lots of ad banners and popup windows. And what better place to populate HIS database than Geocaching.com! Now people will see this, and think "hmmm, I wonder what that is!". They will click thru and discover Jeremy gives for free what Bill charges for.

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Guest Team JackQuest

I vote yes for the ability of the cache owner to decide if their data is to be shared. My feeling is if there are other sites out there I should control submission of my information not a download. To avoid squabbles (like that's a reality) it should be an all or nothing, no use splitting hairs over subjective commercial definitions.

 

------------------

TEAM JackQuest

Jack & Cyber

www.jackquest.com

Base Camp N 40° 20.268' W 75° 37.969' (WGS84)

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Guest rusty

If you do put a click box for data sharing I think it should default to NO. Anyone that wants to place data for a cache under his responsibility out on GOD only knows what website would have to make and explicit decision to do so.

 

I do not have any caches published yet but should have 5 by the end of the month. I have no intention of putting it anywhere but Geocache.com and if I did want to, I would want to know exactly where it was going.

 

Buxley's maps were great, they just seemed like an extension of the geocache site, but there is no way to know that everyone using the data would do it as well. And if we piss off more park people by not having control over caches placed on public land it may all become a moot point becuase the only place you will be able to place one is your backyard!

 

Jeremy keeps tight control over this site (a good thing) and he would know who was using the data from on here, but would that next webmaster have as good of control? Your cache could end up diluted 4 or 5 times from what was originally posted to geocache.com.

 

I will be a definite OPT OUT to data sharing.

 

Rusty...

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Guest Scout

quote:
Originally posted by IronHelix:

They will click thru and discover Jeremy gives for free what Bill charges for.


 

I think a simple yes/no option is best.

 

Of course, if Grounded Inc does put an option to authorize only non-commercial use of one's cache data, then will Grounded Inc itself quit posting those coordinates so designated? I've seen no disclaimer on Grounded Inc's Web site that it itself is a non-commercial site.

 

In fact, my fear is that someday Grounded Inc will start charging for access. All the thousands of GPS stash hiders and hunters who built this recreation will find themselves locked out unless they yield to Grounded Inc's demand for money. No, it hasn't happened, yet, but I've seen no commitment from Grounded Inc to prevent it from happening, either.

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Guest jeremy

Fine.

 

I, Jeremy Irish, CEO of Grounded, Inc. will never make this a pay to play web site for Geocaching. It is in the best interest of all players that the game remain free and the non-commercial sharing of these coordinates through the web site.

 

Not that I'm planning for anything, but in the case that there was some sort of gambling cache (who knows, weirder stuff has happened), I suppose that would be in essence a "pay to play" cache. But the traditional game will remain purely free.

 

How's that?

 

Jeremy

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Guest Scout

quote:
Originally posted by jeremy:

I, Jeremy Irish, CEO of Grounded, Inc. will never make this a pay to play web site for Geocaching.

 

How's that?


 

Works for me. Thanks.

 

Be sure to add this to the disclaimer at http://www.geocaching.com/disclaimer.asp so that it doesn't get lost. I wouldn't want future geocachers to ever get misled on this subject again.

 

P.S. "Gambling cache", huh? Hmmmm. I'm always on the lookout for new concepts (e.g., see GC75C and GC911). I'll have to give this gambling idea some thought. You haven't copyrighted the idea, have you? ;-)

 

 

[This message has been edited by Scout (edited 02 June 2001).]

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Guest Farqhuarson

quote:
Originally posted by rusty:

If you do put a click box for data sharing I think it should default to NO. Anyone that wants to place data for a cache under his responsibility out on GOD only knows what website would have to make and explicit decision to do so.

 

I will be a definite OPT OUT to data sharing.

 

Rusty...


 

well go figure here, but i disagree on the default option. If you want your data to stay here excusively then that should be the conscious desicion (ie, as in yours.).

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Guest martinp13

I think it's a good idea as long as you standardize the data you would be providing (put field formats and descriptions in writing). I do that in my line of work, and it saves MANY headaches down the road.

 

Also, you might consider how MUCH data you want to make available: waypoint code, coordinates, type of cache, hidden date, last found date... maybe that's it, if that much. If just the coordinates, that's cool too. No need to make pictures, etc available: if they want that data they can come back to your site manually and get it.

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Guest rusty

quote:
Originally posted by Farqhuarson:

well go figure here, but i disagree on the default option. If you want your data to stay here excusively then that should be the conscious desicion (ie, as in yours.).


 

The way I look at it is that posting my data here in the first place IS a conscious decision. That reminds of those stupid checkboxes at the end of every online form you fill out that have to be clicked off if you don't want spam. I only want something else to happen when I explicitly ask for it to happen. It would be easy to click it off but that's my logic to make 'NO' the default.

 

I think Jeremy has come up with a good outline for resolving these disputes and his recent statements have made me pretty comfortable in the fact that he will do the right thing for the sport. Nothing will please everyone but what fun would it be if there wasn't anything to argue about icon_smile.gif

 

Rusty...

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Guest rusty

quote:
Originally posted by Farqhuarson:

well go figure here, but i disagree on the default option. If you want your data to stay here excusively then that should be the conscious desicion (ie, as in yours.).


 

The way I look at it is that posting my data here in the first place IS a conscious decision. That reminds of those stupid checkboxes at the end of every online form you fill out that have to be clicked off if you don't want spam. I only want something else to happen when I explicitly ask for it to happen. It would be easy to click it off but that's my logic to make 'NO' the default.

 

I think Jeremy has come up with a good outline for resolving these disputes and his recent statements have made me pretty comfortable in the fact that he will do the right thing for the sport. Nothing will please everyone but what fun would it be if there wasn't anything to argue about icon_smile.gif

 

Rusty...

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Guest WM6P

Jeremy, First thanks for all the time and effort you have put into this site and sport.

We really are in on the infancy of this sport and based on the great growth and interest is such a short time, I think it will grow, flurish and change beyond our imagination.

 

The data that is provided to your site is yours to use. Clearly it was give to YOU to use. And the participants wanted you to make it available on your site. Just as clearly others must solicit and assemble cache data on their own initiative if they wish to have something similar to your site. To just take what you have received and reuse it on their site is a theft of your time and effort and of the information provided by the individual cachers. If they wish to individually contact the cachers and gain permission to republish the data, that is their choice. Please keep the faith and enjoy the fruits of your labor. I am sure that the majority of those that wish to reuse the data are doing it with the best intentions and feel they are attempting to engage more people into the sport.

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Guest Florian

Originally posted by WM6P:

>The data that is provided to your [Jeremy's] site is yours to use. Clearly it was give to YOU to use.

 

I didn't "give" my data to anyone. I posted coordinates and descriptions of caches on Geocaching.com to be freely shared with anyone and everyone.

 

-Florian

 

 

------------------

http://www.stargazer.org/geocaching/

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Guest jeremy

quote:
Originally posted by Florian:

I posted coordinates and descriptions of caches on Geocaching.com to be freely shared with anyone and everyone.

 

-Florian


 

Just so I understand the distinction, that means that you don't mind if someone copies your data off the web site and posts it on their web site?

 

If so, if that person who puts your information on their web site and the site becomes stagnant, you don't mind the fact you won't be able to edit that information (like, say, if you moved the cache slightly and needed to change your coordinates)? Or if you put it on public land and the ranger tells you to remove all traces of the coordinates on the Internet?

 

I agree with cache ninja that if I do put a checkbox agreeing to make your cache "open season" that it should be an all or nothing proposition. You decide that your cache is protected on the web site or not. And to heck with the consequenses.

 

Sounds good?

 

Jeremy

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Guest c.mathis

quote:
Originally posted by jeremy:

Just so I understand the distinction, that means that you don't mind if someone copies your data off the web site and posts it on their web site?

 

If so, if that person who puts your information on their web site and the site becomes stagnant, you don't mind the fact you won't be able to edit that information (like, say, if you moved the cache slightly and needed to change your coordinates)? Or if you put it on public land and the ranger tells you to remove all traces of the coordinates on the Internet?


 

If that happens, then people will come to realize that Geocaching.Com is the only reliable site on the Net and come to use it exclusively. Should we really worry about what the other sites do?

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Guest jeremy

quote:
Originally posted by c.mathis:

Should we really worry about what the other sites do?


 

I really don't mind what they do with the data, as long as the person who agrees to share the data understands what they're doing.

 

I guess I'm just making sure people understand I'm not saying if you want to let someone who creates maps use your data, but whoever grabs your data can do whatever they want with it.

 

Jeremy

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Guest bunkerdave

I don't think it is a bad idea to allow cache owners the OPTION to allow free use of their cache coordinates, I do think it is a mistake for a cache owner to let anyone and everyone use those coords. I have agreed with Jeremy all along on this point, that there is some real value in centralizing control over the cache coordinates. There was a lot of suspicion of JI as to why he wanted to keep it there, and it is quite simple. In any database it is most important that the data be kept current. Obviously, the more databases there are, the more likely it is that one of those databases will NOT be updated as frequently as necessary, and any changes have to be made in ALL the databases. Any administrator knows that this seldom happens as quickly as it sould, if at all. I like having ALL my caches ONLY on geocaching.com, and they will all stay there, and only there, until they are removed by me, stolen, plundered, or eaten by wild animals. I think this is a smart move on the part of JI to dispel any idea held by the "conspiracy theorists" that he is somehow trying to "corner the market" on geocaching. The promise to never make it a "pay to play" site is a nice and wise move, as well. I know that if I had put in all the work he has on the site, I would probably be looking for some payoff. We are all fortunate that I have neither the skills nor the ambition to accomplish such a project. :-)

 

------------------

David Wallentine

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Guest Hawk-eye

quote:
Originally posted by jeremy:

Fine.

 

I, Jeremy Irish, CEO of Grounded, Inc. will never make this a pay to play web site for Geocaching. It is in the best interest of all players that the game remain free and the non-commercial sharing of these coordinates through the web site.

 

Not that I'm planning for anything, but in the case that there was some sort of gambling cache (who knows, weirder stuff has happened), I suppose that would be in essence a "pay to play" cache. But the traditional game will remain purely free.

 

How's that?

 

Jeremy


 

EXCELLENT ... and thank you.

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Guest Florian

Originally posted by jeremy:

>Just so I understand the distinction, that

>means that you don't mind if someone copies

>your data off the web site and posts it on

>their web site?

 

Correct.

 

>If so, if that person who puts your

>information on their web site and the site

>becomes stagnant, you don't mind the fact

>you won't be able to edit that information

>(like, say, if you moved the cache slightly

>and needed to change your coordinates)?

 

Correct. I would accept that as a concequence of having my data freely available.

 

>Or if you put it on public land and the

>ranger tells you to remove all traces of

>the coordinates on the Internet?

 

I would tell the ranger i would remove online caches that i have access to and control over. (Such as on Geocaching.com.)

 

>I agree with cache ninja that if I do put a

>checkbox agreeing to make your cache "open

>season" that it should be an all or nothing

>proposition. You decide that your cache is

>protected on the web site or not. And to

>heck with the consequenses.

 

Yes, agree. (That i ACCEPT the consequenses would be a better way to put it.)

 

>Sounds good?

 

Yeah! ;-)

 

-Florian

 

------------------

http://www.stargazer.org/geocaching/

 

[This message has been edited by Florian (edited 03 June 2001).]

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Guest c.mathis

quote:
Originally posted by jeremy:

Or if you put it on public land and the ranger tells you to remove all traces of the coordinates on the Internet?


 

Once you removed your cache from the property in question, your legal obligation ends. No judge would expect you to be able to remove all reference of the cache from EVERY page on the Internet. It's not possible.

 

Besides, it's the cache that would be illegal, NOT the coordinates themselves.

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Guest jeremy

quote:
Originally posted by c.mathis:

Once you removed your cache from the property in question, your legal obligation ends. No judge would expect you to be able to remove all reference of the cache from EVERY page on the Internet. It's not possible.

 

Besides, it's the cache that would be illegal, NOT the coordinates themselves.


 

Of course that is considered confrontational to the Park service, and they will take a harder look at stifling the game in more and more locations. I guarantee that.

 

Or worse, you wouldn't feel responsible if there was too much foot traffic to a spot that needed protected, or a place you knew that was dangerous afterwards but had no ability to remove the coordinates? I would consider that extremely careless when the alternative was to keep your coordinates central.

 

I like the idea worse and worse as we talk about it. That, of course, doesn't mean I won't leave the checkbox, but I certainly won't check it for my caches.

 

Jeremy

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Guest Farqhuarson

quote:
Originally posted by jeremy:

I really don't mind what they do with the data, as long as the person who agrees to share the data understands what they're doing.

 

I guess I'm just making sure people understand I'm not saying if you want to let someone who creates maps use your data, but whoever grabs your data can do whatever they want with it.

 

Jeremy


 

and i guess what we're trying to tell you is that we are not idiots and we don't need someone holding our hands and telling us what to do.

 

if a site becomes stagnant, does not update its content, that becomes readily apparent quickly. and in that case people generally quit visiting just as quickly. it's amazing how that works.

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Guest jeremy

quote:
Originally posted by Farqhuarson:

and i guess what we're trying to tell you is that we are not idiots and we don't need someone holding our hands and telling us what to do.


 

And what I'm telling you is that many people are short sighted as to the consequenses of their actions. Or prefer to hide behind the guise of "free sharing" and "freedom" to escape the fact that you've opened up a Pandora's box of even more environmental concerns about the sport.

 

Raising awareness isn't calling people idiots.

 

Jeremy

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Guest Krepism
Originally posted by Florian:

 

>Or if you put it on public land and the

>ranger tells you to remove all traces of

>the coordinates on the Internet?

 

I would tell the ranger i would remove online caches that i have access to and control over. (Such as on Geocaching.com.)

 

This may raise some bad opinions from the NPS or BLM about how we control our coordinates. Which in turn could upset them even more to a bad situation. Maybe Jeremy could put a disclaimer for people to agree to, before they can take the Data. Maybe like links back into your site for coordinates, that way if you update it, it automaticly updates thiers? Just a thought, personnally I like it the way it is.

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Guest logscaler

Myself, I am only posting to this site. Period. I will not "give" my cache to other sites. On the other hand, if these caches are posted to a pay to play site, should we not get royalties from those sites? If they gain profit from our work, should we not get something back to cover at least our cost? I do not mind, in fact I enjoy, hiding stuff for this game as long as all things are equal. Free to free and pay to play.

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Guest madphishmonger

Jeremy said:

If so, if that person who puts your information on their web site and the site becomes stagnant,

you don't mind the fact you won't be able to edit that information (like, say, if you moved the

cache slightly and needed to change your coordinates)?

 

This is a valid concern. I think that if we have a nice standard format for geocache info it should include a url where the authoritative information can be found. Once other sites start exhanging data it should be common courtesy to link back to that original url. The format should probably include a contact email, authoritative url, coordinates, description, spoiler, and date placed. To make a site unique (and simplify things), visit logs, pictures, etc. should only be kept at the authoritative url.

 

On another thread, Farqhuarson said:

i'm not an a******, i just play one on geocaching.com

 

ditto for me icon_biggrin.gif But optional sharing of cache info is a compromise I can be happy with, Thanks.

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Guest madphishmonger

Jeremy said:

If so, if that person who puts your information on their web site and the site becomes stagnant,

you don't mind the fact you won't be able to edit that information (like, say, if you moved the

cache slightly and needed to change your coordinates)?

 

This is a valid concern. I think that if we have a nice standard format for geocache info it should include a url where the authoritative information can be found. Once other sites start exhanging data it should be common courtesy to link back to that original url. The format should probably include a contact email, authoritative url, coordinates, description, spoiler, and date placed. To make a site unique (and simplify things), visit logs, pictures, etc. should only be kept at the authoritative url.

 

On another thread, Farqhuarson said:

i'm not an a******, i just play one on geocaching.com

 

ditto for me icon_biggrin.gif But optional sharing of cache info is a compromise I can be happy with, Thanks.

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Guest ClayJar

quote:
Originally posted by logscaler:

On the other hand, if these caches are posted to a pay to play site, should we not get royalties from those sites? If they gain profit from our work, should we not get something back to cover at least our cost?


 

In that case, you would elect to make your coordinates not open season, and then broker deals with the commies (um, I guess that's a bad shortening of commercial entities). Perfectly compatible with Jeremy's idea. icon_smile.gif

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Guest ClayJar

quote:
Originally posted by logscaler:

On the other hand, if these caches are posted to a pay to play site, should we not get royalties from those sites? If they gain profit from our work, should we not get something back to cover at least our cost?


 

In that case, you would elect to make your coordinates not open season, and then broker deals with the commies (um, I guess that's a bad shortening of commercial entities). Perfectly compatible with Jeremy's idea. icon_smile.gif

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Guest madphishmonger

I see two answers to the question of releasing data to commercial sites.

 

1.find or write some GPL-like liscense that requires the commercial entity to also make it's cache database available. Hmm, the more I think about this one the less realistic it seems

 

2.Make the for-profit companies pay Jeremy for a liscense if they want to use the data. So if anybody wants to make a buck off of the community Jeremy will get a cut. But recreational players will still be free to just promote the sport.

 

I vote not to allow release of data to commercial websites. But I'm not sure where to draw the line on commercial websites, some personal webpages even have banners. This page has a few licenses that might be of interest. I think the Open Content license might fit the bill, it allows copying, additions and redistribution providing that copyright is noted, additions are noted, and a copy of the license is distributed. It prohibits charging money for the content. If you want to maintain stricter control of the data look into the Open Directory License which IMO is less prefferable but still very acceptable.

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Guest madphishmonger

Hmm I just realized that I kindof contradicted myself. That's what you get when you surf for information while you are writing a post. When I said that #1 seemed unreasonable I hadn't read the Open Conent and Open Directory Licenses. And Jeremy could release the data under more than one license so if a company wanted something other than the Open Content/Directoy license they would pay him for it. Sorry for the dirty logic and formating in that last post :0. Heh I'm tired.

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Guest jagfan

for him if not monetarily at this time, then surely in fame and admiration. BUT

 

Wake up folks ... if some unscrupulous person wanted to bring the fun to a screeching halt, they could very easily go on a cache plunder spree and then what?! In Utah we have approaching 90 caches. If they suddenly started to disappear, we would be reduced to virtual caches only. That wouldn't be too bad for some of the cache sites, because they were placed with the view or the solitude or basically the place in mind. But the vast majority are placed for the sheer pleasure of the hunt and discovery of the cache.

 

So in spite of all the doomsaying going on here, we (in this community of adventure seekers) have basically agreed that we will place our information in a public forum, and take the chance that those who access the information will have some integrity. Jeremy Irish can not guaranty that whether the information is copywrited to him or not.

 

BTW: I am a registered user under the name WJJagFan. For some reason I am no longer recognized. Perhaps I offended someone.

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Guest Ron Streeter

jagfan....

 

maybe YOU just pushed a wrong button. Why not just register under jagfan so you can drop the "....maybe I offended somebody". YOUR repeated last line is offending me.

 

Ron

19H/18F

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Guest Team JackQuest

My vote is for the default checkbox option at NO (sharing). As previously stated, I make the conscious deliberate action to enter my cache to geocaching.com for its users and only its users to access. I don't want uncontrolled access to cache information I am responsible for the very reasons stated above. The game/sport/hobby begins to look sloppy to those entities who thrive on order and control.

 

------------------

TEAM JackQuest

Jack & Cyber

www.jackquest.com

Base Camp N 40° 20.268' W 75° 37.969' (WGS84)

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Guest bunkerdave

RE: WJJagfan's last post:

 

First off, where have you been? We have, at this writing, 132 caches in Utah. We broke 100 on the 16th of May. I know, because I placed #100. (Pat-Pat)

 

Second, and at the risk of offending one of my fellow local cachers, which I hate to do, I would like to know more about what I perceive to be a desire on your part to incite players of our sport to go out and fragment into numerous and varied sites of their own. This is not a problem, to have other sites, but what I DO perceive as a problem is to have one cache on multiple sites, which may not be kept as current as a single site would be. The more sites there are, the more likely that errors in the collective database will occur. Anyway, that is not my question or comment. I just wanted to let you know that I perceive your comments as inflammatory in the sense that you seem to be trying to overthrow something. If I am mistaken, I would like to know in what way. I will graciously listen to your response, either way.

 

BunkerDave

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Guest Scout

quote:
Originally posted by bunkerdave:

what I DO perceive as a problem is to have one cache on multiple sites, which may not be kept as current as a single site would be


 

There are technical solutions to sharing data that work well in many domains. Mirroring databases a lot larger than Grounded Inc's 3000 or so waypoints is a solved problem. I think what we have here is a business decision, not a technical problem.

 

Note, by pointing this out, I am not trying to prolong the debate about the business decision. That's over. I am satisfied with Grounded Inc's concession to permit cache owners to designate their cache data for reuse in sites like Ed Hall's great map page.

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Guest bunkerdave

Reply to Scout:

 

I agree that the maps were great. I would like to see/use them again. I am not a computer technician/programmer; so many of those issues are beyond me. If methods exist to automatically update dependent databases when the "source" database is changed, then that would solve the problem. I was not sure, however, that JI was agreeable to this, and if not, then it would not work. Not sure what the copyright ramifications of a mirroring database would be/are.

 

I, too, would like to have mine, as well as everyone else's caches, placed on Ed's maps. I am very comfortable with that. I do not, at this point, feel as comfortable opening up my own caches to be listed anywhere and everywhere, by everyone who has a cache list. I expect in the near future to see countless new websites springing up to try and cash in on the game, and I will be hanged if my caches are going to go on those sites. I will personally eliminate all my own caches permanently if Geocaching.com ever goes "pay-to-play." I would rather not play the game than pay to play it. That may sound like "cutting off one's nose to spite his face," but this game being free is something I feel very strongly about. To the point that I would rather see the game tank and dissolve than become another sick commercialized shell of its current self. Like most sports. One option would be to have a box in the log register where cache owners can check yet another box if they want their cache to appear on Ed's Map, but not to be released to any other data users. I don't know if that is a can we want to open, but if JI's maps don't work out, that might be an option. It could also turn into a WHOLE BUNCH of check boxes. :-(

 

In any case, I look forward to getting on to more GeoCaching. I am thrilled with what is going on in Utah. The local paper did a front-page article on the game yesterday. Five new caches since then!

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Guest crwdog

was quite pissed when PSC decided to start selling a CD compilation of the code on the site. While I realize that it takes $$ to keep a site running (I host a few myself) it irked me that my code licensed under the GPL was being sold. When I post things on the web (anything, pics, source, geocache coords) I post them with the knowledge that they are on the *internet*. This means to me, that they are free for everyone and for whatever they want to do with my information. The only caveat is this -> it all has to be free. Not one cent charged. When someone's business app uses some transaction software I wrote for credit cards that is licensed under the GPL, it's got to be free. The whole app. I think this kind of policy should apply to geocaching coordinates as well - I don't think people would have much problem with that. Give us an XML export for the caching data - let Ed build his maps off the XML export from the site, we can build stat pages/etc.. but only for free.

 

Mike

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Guest Artful Dodger

Hey Bunkerdave!

 

Do you happen to have a link to the Utah's web address for that newspaper's report on Geocaching? I wouldn't mind reading it.

 

Thanks

 

Dodger

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Guest jagfan

quote:
Originally posted by bunkerdave:

First off, where have you been? We have, at this writing, 132 caches in Utah. We broke 100 on the 16th of May. I know, because I placed #100. (Pat-Pat)

 

Second, and at the risk of offending one of my fellow local cachers, which I hate to do, I would like to know more about what I perceive to be a desire on your part to incite players of our sport to go out and fragment into numerous and varied sites of their own. BunkerDave


 

Don't worry, I'm not as easily offended as some people are. icon_wink.gif

 

quote:
Quote from Ron Streeter:

YOUR repeated last line is offending me.


 

quote:
Anyway, that is not my question or comment. I just wanted to let you know that I perceive your comments as inflammatory in the sense that you seem to be trying to overthrow something. If I am mistaken, I would like to know in what way. I will graciously listen to your response, either way.

 

You are mistaken. I don't want to overthrow anything. icon_smile.gif I just happen to agree with a few others who have also commented in these forums that this is a fun game or sport or whatever and I'd like to see it continue without all the 'this is mine and you can't have it' attitude. If that means sharing my information with other sites then that is fine with me.

 

Thank you for graciously listening, BunkerDave. Get ahold of me and let's meet. icon_smile.gif

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Guest jagfan

quote:
Originally posted by bunkerdave:

First off, where have you been? We have, at this writing, 132 caches in Utah. We broke 100 on the 16th of May. I know, because I placed #100. (Pat-Pat)

 

Second, and at the risk of offending one of my fellow local cachers, which I hate to do, I would like to know more about what I perceive to be a desire on your part to incite players of our sport to go out and fragment into numerous and varied sites of their own. BunkerDave


 

Don't worry, I'm not as easily offended as some people are. icon_wink.gif

 

quote:
Quote from Ron Streeter:

YOUR repeated last line is offending me.


 

quote:
Anyway, that is not my question or comment. I just wanted to let you know that I perceive your comments as inflammatory in the sense that you seem to be trying to overthrow something. If I am mistaken, I would like to know in what way. I will graciously listen to your response, either way.

 

You are mistaken. I don't want to overthrow anything. icon_smile.gif I just happen to agree with a few others who have also commented in these forums that this is a fun game or sport or whatever and I'd like to see it continue without all the 'this is mine and you can't have it' attitude. If that means sharing my information with other sites then that is fine with me.

 

Thank you for graciously listening, BunkerDave. Get ahold of me and let's meet. icon_smile.gif

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Guest jagfan

quote:
Originally posted by bunkerdave:

I will personally eliminate all my own caches permanently if Geocaching.com ever goes "pay-to-play." I would rather not play the game than pay to play it. That may sound like "cutting off one's nose to spite his face," but this game being free is something I feel very strongly about. To the point that I would rather see the game tank and dissolve than become another sick commercialized shell of its current self.


 

BunkerDave, you wanted an explaination from me about my posts. So I provided one.

 

Now how about an explaination from you. You stated above your profound objection to having to pay at all for the opportunity to play, yet in a post on a different thread you stated the following:

 

quote:
Originally posted by bunkerdave on 'Thanks Jeremy' thread:

I have only been at this for a little less than a month, but it has crossed my mind that it can't stay free forever. Looking at the increase in the number of GeoCaches, it occurs to me that a small membership fee for players might not be unreasonable. It would be adequate to let players play a few caches for free, and then they could get full access for a nominal fee. Not everyone will be as addicted as I am, but I would pay $15-20 for the privilege of using the site.


 

If that isn't pay-for-play, I don't know what is.

WJJagFan icon_biggrin.gif

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Guest jagfan

quote:
Originally posted by bunkerdave:

I will personally eliminate all my own caches permanently if Geocaching.com ever goes "pay-to-play." I would rather not play the game than pay to play it. That may sound like "cutting off one's nose to spite his face," but this game being free is something I feel very strongly about. To the point that I would rather see the game tank and dissolve than become another sick commercialized shell of its current self.


 

BunkerDave, you wanted an explaination from me about my posts. So I provided one.

 

Now how about an explaination from you. You stated above your profound objection to having to pay at all for the opportunity to play, yet in a post on a different thread you stated the following:

 

quote:
Originally posted by bunkerdave on 'Thanks Jeremy' thread:

I have only been at this for a little less than a month, but it has crossed my mind that it can't stay free forever. Looking at the increase in the number of GeoCaches, it occurs to me that a small membership fee for players might not be unreasonable. It would be adequate to let players play a few caches for free, and then they could get full access for a nominal fee. Not everyone will be as addicted as I am, but I would pay $15-20 for the privilege of using the site.


 

If that isn't pay-for-play, I don't know what is.

WJJagFan icon_biggrin.gif

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Guest Artful Dodger

Jeremy has already stated that he won't make this a Pay-for-Play site. (See earlier in this thread) Case closed.

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Guest WJJagFan2

quote:
Originally posted by Artful Dodger:

Jeremy has already stated that he won't make this a Pay-for-Play site. (See earlier in this thread) Case closed.


 

I know; and I appreciate it. Just pointing out some of the inconsistencies throughout the various threads.

 

Thanks Dodger for clarifying.

WJJagFan icon_smile.gif

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Guest WJJagFan2

quote:
Originally posted by Artful Dodger:

Jeremy has already stated that he won't make this a Pay-for-Play site. (See earlier in this thread) Case closed.


 

I know; and I appreciate it. Just pointing out some of the inconsistencies throughout the various threads.

 

Thanks Dodger for clarifying.

WJJagFan icon_smile.gif

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