Geocache Coordinates "Open Season"

[Guest madphishmonger]

e a good license to release the coordinate data under. And if it's good enough for the Netscape Directory and their lawyers I know it's good enough for geocaching.com

[Guest Iron Chef]

I thought that the GPL allows the companies to charge for the cost of the media? (don't get too mad if i'm wrong, its been a long time since i visited /. and was up on all da GPL stuff) Just as long as they don't make a profit off it. Good point about how it is availiable on the net for free usually and how anyone else can make it availiable too though. Also the BSD licence is similar to that which was already mentioned for the Open Dir Licence, I think at least.

 

[This message has been edited by Iron Chef (edited 04 June 2001).]

[Guest bunkerdave]

Re: JagFan

 

I wondered how long it would take someone to point this out. Thanks for the opportunity to explain myself.

 

I did not forget about my previous post. I meant what I said, given the limited exposure I had had to the sport and its culture on the site and in these forums. At the time I did not see how the site COULD remain free forever, and figured that a fee would be ok. In the last month, I have visited some sites that offered similar games for a fee, and it has occurred to me that this would not be good for the game - if Geocaching.com were to become such a site. I am entitled to a change of opinion, and am not ashamed to acknowledge when a position I have held in the past was a wrong one. I am not usually 180 degrees wrong, but in this case I certainly was.

 

I maintain that one of the marks of an intelligent person is a willingness to admit that he/she has made a mistake, learn from it, and not make that mistake again. Unfortunately, I also possess a characteristic of "outspoken-ness" and have little qualm in voicing my opinion. This is not the first time I have changed my opinion on an issue, nor is it anywhere near the most earth-shaking in my personal life. I am fairly confident that this will not be the last time I will learn more about an issue, and will alter my stance accordingly.

 

When I considered the effect making Geocaching.com "pay-to-play would have on its ability to attract new participants and continue as an activity over the long term, I decided that I had been wrong. I stand by my recent statement, and at the same time am a little flattered that anyone ever read my post.

 

As for FUNDING Geocaching.com over the long-term, my earlier statement ws precipitated in large part from a shortage of consideration of alternative sources of funding. I, and many others, have already purchased a t-shirt. Decals and hats are not far off. Obviously, these are probably limited sources of revenue. What about on-site advertising? Garmin and Magellan and virtually any outdoor equipment manufacturer would certainly be interested in marketing to us geocachers. I concede that I would prefer not to see the banners on the site; I find them unsightly. Advertising is a minor inconvenience and a small price when compared to the damage that would be done if players and potential players were required to submit a credit card number to use the service.

 

END OF THIS TOPIC

 

Re: WJJagFan - or whatever you are being known here as today

 

My posting to which you graciously and with profound understanding replied was an attempt on my part to "seek first to understand" where you are coming from, before I commented on anything you had said. I appreciate your willingness to explain. I concur with those who maintain concern over control of the "GPS hide and seek" type of games' database. It is clear that no one can copyright, own, or maintain sole control over a persons right to place an item, record its location, and post the coordinates on the Internet. I maintain (today, at least ) that it is better to have the data centralized so that a few things are more easily accomplished:

 

1) When I want to see if there are any new caches, or if there are any in an area I plan to visit, I go to ONE site, and there they all are.

 

2) When caches are destroyed, or of necessity removed, or whatever, it needs be that only ONE database be updated to bring everyone current on that change.

 

The downside:

 

It requires an administrator who truly has at heart the best interests of the game for this to work. Others may (and in fact, do) disagree with me, but Jeremy has satisfied me that he is such a person, and I am confident that he will remain so. The risk in this is that JI might be carried away by flying monkeys tomorrow, and a wicked programmer will take over and start charging us all to use the site. "Kill the goose with the golden eggs" so to speak. This would clearly be bad for the sport. I am at a loss as to how this situation could be prevented, but given the activity on this discussion board, it is clear that it would be difficult for any action by any administrator to go unnoticed and unresponded to.

 

Geez, I am long-winded. I hope no one else bothered to read all this; I am dismayed that I wrote it all. I hope this provides the explanation you requested. It may not be the best answer in some minds, but it is truly what I am thinking. I may not always be right - as seen - but I will always be as honest as I know how to be.

 

Friendly Regards,

 

BunkerDave

 

P.S.- Can I expect to see you at the Rendezvous on 7/13? I would love the opportunity to discuss many issues - and caching experiences - with you and others in less "non-verbal" circumstances.

 

[This message has been edited by bunkerdave (edited 04 June 2001).]

 

[This message has been edited by bunkerdave (edited 04 June 2001).]

[Guest bunkerdave]

Re: JagFan

 

I wondered how long it would take someone to point this out. Thanks for the opportunity to explain myself.

 

I did not forget about my previous post. I meant what I said, given the limited exposure I had had to the sport and its culture on the site and in these forums. At the time I did not see how the site COULD remain free forever, and figured that a fee would be ok. In the last month, I have visited some sites that offered similar games for a fee, and it has occurred to me that this would not be good for the game - if Geocaching.com were to become such a site. I am entitled to a change of opinion, and am not ashamed to acknowledge when a position I have held in the past was a wrong one. I am not usually 180 degrees wrong, but in this case I certainly was.

 

I maintain that one of the marks of an intelligent person is a willingness to admit that he/she has made a mistake, learn from it, and not make that mistake again. Unfortunately, I also possess a characteristic of "outspoken-ness" and have little qualm in voicing my opinion. This is not the first time I have changed my opinion on an issue, nor is it anywhere near the most earth-shaking in my personal life. I am fairly confident that this will not be the last time I will learn more about an issue, and will alter my stance accordingly.

 

When I considered the effect making Geocaching.com "pay-to-play would have on its ability to attract new participants and continue as an activity over the long term, I decided that I had been wrong. I stand by my recent statement, and at the same time am a little flattered that anyone ever read my post.

 

As for FUNDING Geocaching.com over the long-term, my earlier statement ws precipitated in large part from a shortage of consideration of alternative sources of funding. I, and many others, have already purchased a t-shirt. Decals and hats are not far off. Obviously, these are probably limited sources of revenue. What about on-site advertising? Garmin and Magellan and virtually any outdoor equipment manufacturer would certainly be interested in marketing to us geocachers. I concede that I would prefer not to see the banners on the site; I find them unsightly. Advertising is a minor inconvenience and a small price when compared to the damage that would be done if players and potential players were required to submit a credit card number to use the service.

 

END OF THIS TOPIC

 

Re: WJJagFan - or whatever you are being known here as today

 

My posting to which you graciously and with profound understanding replied was an attempt on my part to "seek first to understand" where you are coming from, before I commented on anything you had said. I appreciate your willingness to explain. I concur with those who maintain concern over control of the "GPS hide and seek" type of games' database. It is clear that no one can copyright, own, or maintain sole control over a persons right to place an item, record its location, and post the coordinates on the Internet. I maintain (today, at least ) that it is better to have the data centralized so that a few things are more easily accomplished:

 

1) When I want to see if there are any new caches, or if there are any in an area I plan to visit, I go to ONE site, and there they all are.

 

2) When caches are destroyed, or of necessity removed, or whatever, it needs be that only ONE database be updated to bring everyone current on that change.

 

The downside:

 

It requires an administrator who truly has at heart the best interests of the game for this to work. Others may (and in fact, do) disagree with me, but Jeremy has satisfied me that he is such a person, and I am confident that he will remain so. The risk in this is that JI might be carried away by flying monkeys tomorrow, and a wicked programmer will take over and start charging us all to use the site. "Kill the goose with the golden eggs" so to speak. This would clearly be bad for the sport. I am at a loss as to how this situation could be prevented, but given the activity on this discussion board, it is clear that it would be difficult for any action by any administrator to go unnoticed and unresponded to.

 

Geez, I am long-winded. I hope no one else bothered to read all this; I am dismayed that I wrote it all. I hope this provides the explanation you requested. It may not be the best answer in some minds, but it is truly what I am thinking. I may not always be right - as seen - but I will always be as honest as I know how to be.

 

Friendly Regards,

 

BunkerDave

 

P.S.- Can I expect to see you at the Rendezvous on 7/13? I would love the opportunity to discuss many issues - and caching experiences - with you and others in less "non-verbal" circumstances.

 

[This message has been edited by bunkerdave (edited 04 June 2001).]

 

[This message has been edited by bunkerdave (edited 04 June 2001).]

[Guest madphishmonger]

Iron Chef -

The GPL says, "You may charge a fee for the physical act of transferring a copy, and you may at your option offer warranty protection in exchange for a fee." So it does not prohibit people from making a profit. Also the BSD license has no language to prevent reselling at a profit.

[Guest WJJagfan]

quote:

---

Originally posted by bunkerdave:

P.S.- Can I expect to see you at the Rendezvous on 7/13? I would love the opportunity to discuss many issues - and caching experiences - with you and others in less "non-verbal" circumstances.

---

 

Rendezvous? July 13th? This is the first I've heard of it.

 

I have tried to keep up on the 'GeoCaching Gathering - Utah' thread in the Southwest, but haven't seen anything on location or date.

 

Let me know the latest on this Rendezvous.

I'll look for it on the Utah thread.

 

[This message has been edited by WJJagfan (edited 05 June 2001).]

[Guest WJJagfan]

quote:

---

Originally posted by bunkerdave:

P.S.- Can I expect to see you at the Rendezvous on 7/13? I would love the opportunity to discuss many issues - and caching experiences - with you and others in less "non-verbal" circumstances.

---

 

Rendezvous? July 13th? This is the first I've heard of it.

 

I have tried to keep up on the 'GeoCaching Gathering - Utah' thread in the Southwest, but haven't seen anything on location or date.

 

Let me know the latest on this Rendezvous.

I'll look for it on the Utah thread.

 

[This message has been edited by WJJagfan (edited 05 June 2001).]

[Guest bunkerdave]

This is the thread. It is in a new one, but it is on the West-SW forum

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000042.html

 

It is a little way from WJ, but the drive is spectacular and the site nothing less.

 

-BunkerDave

[Guest mjbgis]

I hope I am not making this more complicated, but my concern is that if I don?t check the box allowing other people free access, then people who want to create other tools won?t have access to my coordinate information. I would like them to be able to use the coordinates for other tools they create (like maps) but only link back to the geocaching.com page for my cache description.

 

I personally agree that everything is easier to maintain in one place, but also think there is room for others in the sport to create useful enhancements.

 

On the other hand, I don?t want to make it a logistical nightmare for whoever is maintaining the site or to have to click on 15 different checkboxes every time there is a new person wanting to use the data.

 

I also want to take this opportunity to thank everyone involved in the sport of geocaching. It is an amazing global phenomenon and even though it is going through some growing pains now, I have been extremely impressed with the cooperation of its participants and the sense of community the sport has generated. I hope it continues.

 

Michael

[Guest Dan Bollinger]

fyi: A commercial site is any that charges a fee or sells goods or services. It is also any site that sells banner space!

[Guest cache_only]

quote:

---

Originally posted by jeremy:

Of course that is considered confrontational to the Park service, and they will take a harder look at stifling the game in more and more locations. I guarantee that....I like the idea worse and worse as we talk about it. That, of course, doesn't mean I won't leave the checkbox, but I certainly won't check it for my caches.

 

Jeremy

---

 

A few points to make:

 

1. That's fine if you choose not to check the box, but allowing people the freedom to have their coordinates posted elsewhere is good for the sport. People can have access to the game through different websites.

 

2. Your worry about liability is unnecessary. If you removed a bad cache from your site, then what liabilty would you face? I think the Park Service, private property owners, etc., would only go after sites that were negligent in updating their cache databases.

 

3. This is one more reason the sport needs a central, sanctioning body. Let's say there were 15 sites that store and maintain cache data. The council could make an "information sharing" rule that states if a cache is updated on one site, the information must be passed along to other sites. This must happen because a cache owner will have one favorite site that he/she uses. He/She will not visit every site in existence because he/she will not be aware of every one or, he/she may be too lazy to update his/her cache at each and every site. Again, this information sharing rule would ensure that a change at one site would mean a uniform change at every site. I am not a big fan of government, but a central authority can be a good thing if it is used properly. Since you copyrighted "geocaching" this can be done. I can assure you that every site will want to use the name geocaching somewhere on the page. You can make it a condition of use that if they want to use the name geocaching, they must register themselves with the council and promise to abide by the council's bylaws. If a site is negligent in updating its base, the council can decertify it as a standing member and demand the cessation of the use of the name geocaching. From that point on the site will be a stand-alone rogue and not privy to any update information. It will quickly fade away when hunters go looking for caches that have been missing for months. The free marketplace will drive these sites out.

 

And if you're still not warm to the idea of a council, then you alone can be this governing body. You can still put into effect the suggestions I made here. And you alone can police these sites to ensure they are updating. If they aren't, pull the "geocaching" privelage.

 

4. This sport is growing rapidly. The media, especially, are going to be looking for a sanctioning, governing body to approach. An institution of some kind needs to be formed. A handful of people might form the "GPS Stash Hunt Society" or "GPS Treasure Hunt Association" and make up the bylaws/rules of the sport and issue press releases. To the media, this will be a blessing. They will have their point of contact/sanctioning body they were looking for. This body will be first on the scene, granted an unofficial grandfather status, and will be recognized as the sanctioning body of the sport.

 

Sadly, like Mr. Ulmer, you may find yourself pining away on the sideline.

 

Rob

 

[This message has been edited by cache_only (edited 09 June 2001).]

[Guest Team JackQuest]

Any idea when the check box feature will make it off the chalkboard and onto the website?

 

------------------

TEAM JackQuest

Jack & Cyber

www.jackquest.com

Base Camp N 40° 20.268' W 75° 37.969' (WGS84)

[Guest WJJagfan]

I will post my cache coordinates wherever I like. If Groundspeak doesn't want to share - fine by me.

 

GeoCaching.com is currently the leading site, but as the competitors of microsoft found out, if you don't share your stuff the standard may shift away from you.

 

If you agree with Mr. Irish about the risks of posting to his competitors then don't.

[Guest ruttencutter]

EY for accessing the content on their website is NOT commercial. It is merely trying to recoup the money that is expended in running any website that obtains a mild amount of daily traffic.

 

How do you expect people to offer websites to you for free if they have no way to recover their expenses? I do not know where geocaching.com is hosted, but I am sure that it costs someone some amount of money. By the site not charging you a fee to use their service, you should happily accept banner ads if they ever do show up.

 

Yes, banner ads are unattractive. But so is having to pay any website for information. Information may be free but the delivery of that information is going to cost somebody some money at one time or another.

 

Just my 0.03$. That's about the value of 10 banner clicks.

 

-Scott

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dan Bollinger:

fyi: A commercial site is any that charges a fee or sells goods or services. It is also any site that sells banner space!

---

[Guest Scout]

quote:

---

Originally posted by ruttencutter:

A Commercial site, by definition, is a site that is charging you for services.

---

 

By this definition, television commercials are not commercial. And HBO, which doesn't have commercials, *is* commercial.

 

I don't think your definition stands up to either common usage or legal scrutiny.

 

Unfortunately, the word "commercial" seems to lack a well accepted legal definition. For a sampling of different viewpoints, take a look at the differing interpretations of the usage restrictions in the PGP license ( http://axion.physics.ubc.ca/pgp-commercial.html ).

[Guest ruttencutter]

Okay.

 

I guess I am just running under my own notion that no websites that run banner ads as their only source of income will make any signifigant profit, if any.

 

-S

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scout:

By this definition, television commercials are not commercial. And HBO, which doesn't have commercials, *is* commercial.

 

I don't think your definition stands up to either common usage or legal scrutiny.

 

Unfortunately, the word "commercial" seems to lack a well accepted legal definition. For a sampling of different viewpoints, take a look at the differing interpretations of the usage restrictions in the PGP license ( http://axion.physics.ubc.ca/pgp-commercial.html ).

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