+majicman Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 Okay, you guys are just ASKING for it! (Sarcastic attempt at humor)... I have a great idea! Very similar to my (see other threads) "Stump Remover" cache with the tnt, dynamite, and nitro-glycerine,) or my "All Food Items" cache (baked items wrapped in wax paper), I think I shall now create an "All-Religions" cache. Now, to be fair (proportionally), I will have to include items proportional to the general public so I have 2 billion christians, 1.3 billion Islamic, 900 million Hindus, 850 million Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist, 360 million Buddhists, 225 million Chinese traditional religious, 150 million primal-indigenous believers, 95 million Diasporic, 23 million Sikhist, 19 million Juchest, 14 million Spiritist, 14 million Jewish, 6 million Bahaist, 4 million Jainist, 4 million Shinto followers, 3 million Cao Daist, 2.4 million Tenrikyoist, 1 million (roughly) Neo-Paganist, 800 thousand Unitarians, 750 thousand Scientologists, 700 thousand Rastafarianists, and about 150 thousand Zoroastrianists! Now, I can subdivide the Christian 2 billion (we don't wanna mix the Catholics and Methods and Baptists all together, do we?) So, we will have to have separate items for these "Christian groups" (lets do alphabetical this time!): African Independent Churches (AICs), the Aglipayan Church, Amish, Anglicans, Armenian Apostolic, Assemblies of God; Baptists, Calvary Chapel, Catholics, Christadelphians, Christian Science, the Community of Christ, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Coptic Christians, Eastern Orthodox churches, Ethiopian Orthodox, Evangelicals, Iglesia ni Cristo, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Local Church, Lutherans, Methodists, Nestorians, the New Apostolic Church, Pentecostals, Plymouth Brethren, Presbyterians, the Salvation Army, Seventh-Day Adventists, Shakers, Stone-Campbell churches (Disciples of Christ; Churches of Christ; the "Christian Church and Churches of Christ"; the International Church of Christ); Uniate churches, United Church of Christ/Congregationalists, the Unity Church, Universal Church of the Kingdom of God, Vineyard churches and others (Disclaimer, Note that these are only SOME of the "major" (by member population) Christian religions.)) Well, I really should break out the Islamic (Like the Shiite and More) and Hindus (gotta watch my karma here, at least in this life-cycle) into their various subcategories, but, I think I'll let that slide! OK: now for some items: rosaries, crucifixes, crosses, medalions, holy cards, scapulars, bibles, leaflets, pamphlets, statuettes, hood ornaments, prayer cloths, cruets, oils, clerical shirts, patens, vestments, chalices, candle sticks, monstrances, pyxes, sprinklers, vestments, plaques, icons, wine, grape juice, wafers, unleavened bread, bitter herbs, catechisms, medals, pins, stained glass, patches, turbans, kippahs, black hats, brown derbys, machzors, siddurs, the T'nakh, yarmulkes, prayer wheels, bells, beads, cymbals, incense; (heck, lets do som alphabeticals) arti lamps, bride dolls, baptismal candles, buddha statues, censers, challaf loaves, chauri, chommetz kits, conches, dancing sticks, diva statures, dorjes, dreidles, durgas, first communion dresses, ganeshas, garlands, gregers, guru gobind singhs, guru nanaks, hanumans, head scarves, hunger cloths, icons, ihrams, Ik Onkars, kacheras, kanghas, karas, kara parshad bowls, kalis, kiddush cups, kirpans, krishnas (hare?), lakshamis, madonnas (not her!), malas, mandirs, masks, matzahs menorahs, mezuzahs, necklaces, offering bowls, plates (medina), prayer - beads & flags & hats & mats & wheels, puja trays, qur'ans, rakhis, rama & sitas, ramadarbars, rumalas, sarasvatis, seder plates, shivas, shabbat candlesticks & puppets, shofars, skull caps, spices & spice boxes, stoups, tallits, tambourines, tasbis, teffilins, trimurtis, triptyches, vishnus, votive memorial items, wafers, weddign garlands & dresses & cakes & veils & jewelery, yads and Zitzit Katans! That outta about cover it! (Whew!!!) --majicman (Always trade UP in both quantity and quality and Geocaches will be both self-sustaining and self-improving!) Quote Link to comment
+sbell111 Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 Majicman, you always crack me up Quote Link to comment
+majicman Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 quote:Originally posted by TresOkies: Originally (snip) Granted, it's been mostly rational, which is why I hang out here rather than SlashDot or Kuro5hin. Peace to you all and good hunting. Careful about who you are wishing your stinkin' "PEACE" upon! What if I am a warmonger or an anarcist! Don't I have a right to not be peaceful, if I so choose to be turbelent inside instead of peaceful, don't oppress me with your forced peace! --majicman (Always trade UP in both quantity and quality and Geocaches will be both self-sustaining and self-improving!) [This message was edited by majicman on June 25, 2002 at 01:47 PM.] Quote Link to comment
+majicman Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 quote:Originally posted by TresOkies: Originally (snip) Granted, it's been mostly rational, which is why I hang out here rather than SlashDot or Kuro5hin. Peace to you all and good hunting. Careful about who you are wishing your stinkin' "PEACE" upon! What if I am a warmonger or an anarcist! Don't I have a right to not be peaceful, if I so choose to be turbelent inside instead of peaceful, don't oppress me with your forced peace! --majicman (Always trade UP in both quantity and quality and Geocaches will be both self-sustaining and self-improving!) [This message was edited by majicman on June 25, 2002 at 01:47 PM.] Quote Link to comment
+majicman Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 quote:Originally posted by sbell111: Majicman, you always crack me up As I constantly tell my wife (of 25 years)... "That's my job!" (Or at least, I keep thinkin' that's what I was put here for...) --majicman (Always trade UP in both quantity and quality and Geocaches will be both self-sustaining and self-improving!) Quote Link to comment
Sheer-Luck Holmes Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 I'm new here too, but I can't help but notice how amazing it is that 'commercialism' always seems to creep into these type of discussions, whether it's about religious tchotchkes in a cache or the mention of a near by ice cream parlor. Let's face it, the price we pay for living in a free society is learning how to be tolerant of others. It will be interesting to see how tolerant people will be when this sport gets so big that Garmin, Magellan, or the Catholic Church finely decide to launch their own 'commercial' caching websites. Or will some people just stop using their GPSr and find something else less 'commercial' to do. Quote Link to comment
+Harrald Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 I hate to say this but..... This looks like another troll attack. This person registered on the 24th. They also have no logged finds. There is no link to the cache provided. Whatever your opinion on this subject is it's not worth a flame war. There have been quite a few of these subject types of late. I wouldn't be surprised if they are all the same person/people using different logins. ==================================== As always, the above statements are just MHO. ==================================== Quote Link to comment
+Rusty & Libby Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Harrald: I hate to say this but..... This looks like another troll attack. This person registered on the 24th. They also have no logged finds. There is no link to the cache provided. Whatever your opinion on this subject is it's not worth a flame war. There have been quite a few of these subject types of late. I wouldn't be surprised if they are all the same person/people using different logins. ==================================== As always, the above statements are just MHO. ==================================== I think your right, we got suckered Rusty... Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page Quote Link to comment
+Rusty & Libby Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Harrald: I hate to say this but..... This looks like another troll attack. This person registered on the 24th. They also have no logged finds. There is no link to the cache provided. Whatever your opinion on this subject is it's not worth a flame war. There have been quite a few of these subject types of late. I wouldn't be surprised if they are all the same person/people using different logins. ==================================== As always, the above statements are just MHO. ==================================== I think your right, we got suckered Rusty... Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page Quote Link to comment
cyarnell Posted June 25, 2002 Author Share Posted June 25, 2002 quote:Maybe you should return the gps to it's owner. Would you have not gone if you knew is was a religious cache? No like I said we were very disappointed and would not have gone to all that work just to find a bunch of jesus junk and I did return the gps not that it is any of your bisness. Quote Link to comment
chloew Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 quote: I think your right, we got suckered I personally don't feel suckered. I think we all had a fairly civil discussion on a topic that is obviously important enough to us all for many people to take the time to write down their thoughts. Whether it was started in good faith or not, doesn't take away from the ensuing discussion. At least that is my opinion. Quote Link to comment
+majicman Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Rusty: quote:Originally posted by Harrald: I hate to say this but..... This looks like another troll attack. This person registered on the 24th. They also have no logged finds. There is no link to the cache provided. Whatever your opinion on this subject is it's not worth a flame war. There have been quite a few of these subject types of late. I wouldn't be surprised if they are all the same person/people using different logins. ==================================== As always, the above statements are just MHO. ==================================== I think your right, we got suckered Rusty... http://www.hipcd.com/gps.htm Good God (or Buddah, Mohammed or Guya), Now you guys are anti-troll! Listen, if other types of beings want to join in on geocaching, and our discussion, who are you to oppress them? I'll bet that at least some of us in these discussion groups are not from this planet (just read some of the threads and I think you'll agree with me!) Heck fire, if we let non-earthis extra-terresterials have their say in here, why not trolls. (I would suspect that if I took a poll, some would even register as fairies, spirits, goblins, hobgoblins, magicians, wizards, fighters, gnomes, hobbits and even an orc or two!) If it wasn't for these troll-begotten threads, I would have far less tirrading to do. (Which I apparently get off on...) So you just watch the name calling, gravity-bound lactate slurper, and leave us non-earthly entities (and fairy-tale or imagined creatures) alone! --majicman (Always trade UP in both quantity and quality and Geocaches will be both self-sustaining and self-improving!) Quote Link to comment
+majicman Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Rusty: quote:Originally posted by Harrald: I hate to say this but..... This looks like another troll attack. This person registered on the 24th. They also have no logged finds. There is no link to the cache provided. Whatever your opinion on this subject is it's not worth a flame war. There have been quite a few of these subject types of late. I wouldn't be surprised if they are all the same person/people using different logins. ==================================== As always, the above statements are just MHO. ==================================== I think your right, we got suckered Rusty... http://www.hipcd.com/gps.htm Good God (or Buddah, Mohammed or Guya), Now you guys are anti-troll! Listen, if other types of beings want to join in on geocaching, and our discussion, who are you to oppress them? I'll bet that at least some of us in these discussion groups are not from this planet (just read some of the threads and I think you'll agree with me!) Heck fire, if we let non-earthis extra-terresterials have their say in here, why not trolls. (I would suspect that if I took a poll, some would even register as fairies, spirits, goblins, hobgoblins, magicians, wizards, fighters, gnomes, hobbits and even an orc or two!) If it wasn't for these troll-begotten threads, I would have far less tirrading to do. (Which I apparently get off on...) So you just watch the name calling, gravity-bound lactate slurper, and leave us non-earthly entities (and fairy-tale or imagined creatures) alone! --majicman (Always trade UP in both quantity and quality and Geocaches will be both self-sustaining and self-improving!) Quote Link to comment
cyarnell Posted June 25, 2002 Author Share Posted June 25, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Harrald: I hate to say this but..... This looks like another troll attack. This person registered on the 24th. They also have no logged finds. There is no link to the cache provided. Whatever your opinion on this subject is it's not worth a flame war. There have been quite a few of these subject types of late. I wouldn't be surprised if they are all the same person/people using different logins. ==================================== As always, the above statements are just MHO. ==================================== wtf dont call me a troll a******. read my post it was the first one we tried to find and we left it without doing anything so what Quote Link to comment
+Number 6 Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 Sorry about the long post, just couldn't hold back my 4 cents worth . . . After seeing this thread referenced in "[RULE] Themed Caches," I got curious about what cache started all of this, what the description says, and who hid it. My first step was to check the profile of the person who started the thread for the found/hidden link. It's 0/0 (as of 6/25 PM) so it appears they decided not to log the "offending" cache even though they found it. (Anyone else old enough to remember the "I Found It" bumper stickers and the Jews' reply, "We Never Lost It"? I didn't have a car then, but wanted one of each.) As I Christian, I naturally disagree with many of the viewpoints expressed though not surprised nor do I choose to engage in a debate (there have been many abuses committed in Christ’s name though that does not negate the Truth He brought us). As a Christian I believe we have Good News to share with the entire world. As a professional communicator, I also know a receptive, non-hostile audience results in more productive efforts. (That should invoke some equal opportunity flames.) While I applaud the evangelical intent of sharing tracts through geocaching, I do not believe they often accomplish their desired purpose in such a setting. I believe tracts are most effective when shared personally (though I like the story of the Bible that was almost recycled, but found a home). There are also practical issues involved. Tracts and other printed materials do not tend to survive well in ammo cans unless otherwise protected. They get damp, folded, and generally unattractive (not a good witness). Printed materials, in general, are not what geocachers expect or seek. My hope is that we would each be able to express ourselves through what we leave behind. I would hope that we could seek out and find our commonalities rather than things that drive us apart. In the end, the hunt is the game not the loot (we do need a name for the stuff - guess I should check that thread again). So long as what is left in the cache is not dangerous, illegal, impractical, patently offensive, or offends community standards then I suppose we must each use our own judgment about what we choose to share. Be Seeing You! Quote Link to comment
solohiker Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Syn: Religious items are illegal items in my eyes. Its fine if people want to have that stuff outside of the game, but it should stay there. I consider it to be commercial as people are trying to convert people to their belief. When I come across a religious item such as a bible I usually change it out for something else or I simply remove it. Illegal? By what rational? Why should we censor caches? Quote Link to comment
iryshe Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 quote:Originally posted by sbell111: Did I misunderstand your post? quote:Originally posted by Jeremy Irish:Religious tracts and other ads are the same as brochures for a travel resort. Remove the tracts and any other items. Tracts as in "You will go to hell if you don't love [iCON]?" Sorry. Sometimes by personal opinion and the opinions of the entity Geocaching.com get blurred. If I saw a religious tract in a cache I would remove it in trade with another item. Jeremy Jeremy Irish Groundspeak - The Language of Location Quote Link to comment
+worldtraveler Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Warm Fuzzies - Fuzzy:...Oh, sure, if you take it seriously you'll eventually have to give someone something to get a chance at having whatever the brochure promises but - whether you want to believe it or not - that's true of tracts too...they're sales pitches, just like the herbalife ads we also find in caches, and the stated goals of whatever organization they're associated with make no difference... Okay, let's use specifics rather than generalities. Arguably the most widely distributed tract in the world is "The Four Spiritual Laws". You can even read it online here. It is not published by any church, but by a nondenominational parachurch organization. Nowhere in the tract is there a request or requirement for the reader to GIVE anything. Rather, there is an invitation for the reader to RECEIVE a free gift. It is inaccurate to label this as a "sales pitch just like the herbalife ads" unless those ads are offers to receive the product free. Worldtraveler Quote Link to comment
+parkrrrr Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 quote:Originally posted by worldtraveler:Nowhere in the tract is there a request or requirement for the reader to GIVE anything. I refer you to law 4: "We must individually RECEIVE Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord; then we can know and experience God's love and plan for our lives." It's the word "MUST" here that makes it a business transaction. If I can't get this eternal salvation junk without having to do anything at all, it's not a gift. It's a business transaction. I give this "Jesus Christ" person my eternal soul, he gives me salvation and, as an added bonus, I never have to think for myself again because "God" already has a plan for me. Quote Link to comment
+majicman Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 Don't all of you people know that my mind is already made up on this question! Why do you try to keep confusing me with the facts? --majicman (Always trade UP in both quantity and quality and Geocaches will be both self-sustaining and self-improving!) Quote Link to comment
+majicman Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 Don't all of you people know that my mind is already made up on this question! Why do you try to keep confusing me with the facts? --majicman (Always trade UP in both quantity and quality and Geocaches will be both self-sustaining and self-improving!) Quote Link to comment
+majicman Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 quote:Originally posted by sbell111: I'm tired, Please see this thread: http://opentopic.Groundspeak.com/0/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=1750973553&f=3000917383&m=5760973244 Hey Sbell111, Deja vu! (I just read that entire thread - thanks for the link.) I think you are right, same play, same script, (probably the same ending - huh Jeremy!) different actors on stage this time! --majicman (Always trade UP in both quantity and quality and Geocaches will be both self-sustaining and self-improving!) Quote Link to comment
+worldtraveler Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Warm Fuzzies - Fuzzy:...It's the word "MUST" here that makes it a business transaction... When someone offers you a free gift (birthday, anniversary, Christmas, etc.), you "MUST" receive it in order for it to be yours. Do you consider that to be "doing something" or "a business transaction?" If so, you are applying non-standard definitions to the terms: "Business - 3 a : a usually commercial or mercantile activity engaged in as a means of livelihood BUSINESS may be an inclusive term but specifically designates the activities of those engaged in the purchase or sale of commodities or in related financial transactions." (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary) quote:I give this "Jesus Christ" person my eternal soul, he gives me salvationAgain, there is NO reference in the text of the tract to the reader "giving" anything. This is a concept YOU are inferring. Worldtraveler Quote Link to comment
+geospotter Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Number 6:I would hope that we could seek out and find our commonalities rather than things that drive us apart. Amen! Quote Link to comment
Salvo Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 I also savor the journey and the hunt for a cache, and occassionally I get surprised with a nice sparkly treat. But it is really worth your while to look over all of the contents of a cache -and the location, instead of just signing the log and running off. I had recently reset out one of my caches: http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=25047 I let everyone know that it was Y2K themed, and I seemed to get a good response from everyone. Though the cache itself was literally packed, everyone missed the surprise treat I had unlisted, but was in the cache for the first day release only :a 1/10 ounce US $5 Gold coin. They did find the 10 oz Johnson Matthey ,999 Silver Bar though! Quote Link to comment
Salvo Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 I also savor the journey and the hunt for a cache, and occassionally I get surprised with a nice sparkly treat. But it is really worth your while to look over all of the contents of a cache -and the location, instead of just signing the log and running off. I had recently reset out one of my caches: http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=25047 I let everyone know that it was Y2K themed, and I seemed to get a good response from everyone. Though the cache itself was literally packed, everyone missed the surprise treat I had unlisted, but was in the cache for the first day release only :a 1/10 ounce US $5 Gold coin. They did find the 10 oz Johnson Matthey ,999 Silver Bar though! Quote Link to comment
+Bear and Ting Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 quote:Originally posted by welwell: I think the trip going and finding the cache is more important then what is in it. I could care less what is in it. I have even gone on a cache where I walked over ten miles in a wilderness, taking almost ten hours and just signed the log, took nothing and left a small item. I don't think you get the point about geocaching. Maybe you should return the gps to it's owner. Would you have not gone if you knew is was a religious cache? No.... I would not have gone. There are enough other caches out there. However, if I ever find them again, I would pick up a few copies of "Why man created God", a small booklette. If the cache is marked or described as a religious cache, so be it. If not, then it is fair game and I would place a copy of it in there. Geocachers don't NEED to ask for directions! Quote Link to comment
+niskibum Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 Originally posted by worldtraveler:I'm sorry you feel cheated by the decision your grandmother made in dispersing HER money. If she was incompetent to make the decision or was somehow swindled, misled, cheated, or deceived into donating it, SHE would have a right to seek redress. If not, was it not hers to give as she desired? But your statement, "My family was duped..." makes it appear that others think THEY had a right to your grandmother's money. How is this different from your accusation made against the church? Worldtraveler[/QUOT] There is a world of difference. You don't know the whole story, and I don't intend to air it here, but the short version is that a certain religious organization specifically targeted her, as do many organizations with elderly people, to get her money. The family spent what time they could with her(two states away) because they loved her, not for her money(we didn't even know)and her will left everything to that church. If she had left no will where do you think that money would have gone? OK, Uncle sam would have taken most of it, but after that the family would have taken what was left, not the shysters that preyed on her. It's pretty hard for her to seek redress now, and an incompetent person would have a tough time doing it as well. But my whole point was to say that the majority of religous organizations do want money from you. If they did't, they wouldn't accept it from you. And to think that they are not commercial is incorrect. It takes money to print out all that propoganda. Quote Link to comment
+Bear and Ting Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 quote:Originally posted by majicman: Okay, you guys are just ASKING for it! (Sarcastic attempt at humor)... I have a great idea! Very similar to my (see other threads) "Stump Remover" cache with the tnt, dynamite, and nitro-glycerine,) or my "All Food Items" cache (baked items wrapped in wax paper), I think I shall now create an "All-Religions" cache. Now, to be fair (proportionally), I will have to include items proportional to the general public so I have 2 billion christians, 1.3 billion Islamic, 900 million Hindus, 850 million Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist, 360 million Buddhists, 225 million Chinese traditional religious, 150 million primal-indigenous believers, 95 million Diasporic, 23 million Sikhist, 19 million Juchest, 14 million Spiritist, 14 million Jewish, 6 million Bahaist, 4 million Jainist, 4 million Shinto followers, 3 million Cao Daist, 2.4 million Tenrikyoist, 1 million (roughly) Neo-Paganist, 800 thousand Unitarians, 750 thousand Scientologists, 700 thousand Rastafarianists, and about 150 thousand Zoroastrianists! Now, I can subdivide the Christian 2 billion (we don't wanna mix the Catholics and Methods and Baptists all together, do we?) So, we will have to have separate items for these "Christian groups" (lets do alphabetical this time!): African Independent Churches (AICs), the Aglipayan Church, Amish, Anglicans, Armenian Apostolic, Assemblies of God; Baptists, Calvary Chapel, Catholics, Christadelphians, Christian Science, the Community of Christ, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Coptic Christians, Eastern Orthodox churches, Ethiopian Orthodox, Evangelicals, Iglesia ni Cristo, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Local Church, Lutherans, Methodists, Nestorians, the New Apostolic Church, Pentecostals, Plymouth Brethren, Presbyterians, the Salvation Army, Seventh-Day Adventists, Shakers, Stone-Campbell churches (Disciples of Christ; Churches of Christ; the "Christian Church and Churches of Christ"; the International Church of Christ); Uniate churches, United Church of Christ/Congregationalists, the Unity Church, Universal Church of the Kingdom of God, Vineyard churches and others (Disclaimer, Note that these are only SOME of the "major" (by member population) Christian religions.)) Well, I really should break out the Islamic (Like the Shiite and More) and Hindus (gotta watch my karma here, at least in this life-cycle) into their various subcategories, but, I think I'll let that slide! OK: now for some items: rosaries, crucifixes, crosses, medalions, holy cards, scapulars, bibles, leaflets, pamphlets, statuettes, hood ornaments, prayer cloths, cruets, oils, clerical shirts, patens, vestments, chalices, candle sticks, monstrances, pyxes, sprinklers, vestments, plaques, icons, wine, grape juice, wafers, unleavened bread, bitter herbs, catechisms, medals, pins, stained glass, patches, turbans, kippahs, black hats, brown derbys, machzors, siddurs, the T'nakh, yarmulkes, prayer wheels, bells, beads, cymbals, incense; (heck, lets do som alphabeticals) arti lamps, bride dolls, baptismal candles, buddha statues, censers, challaf loaves, chauri, chommetz kits, conches, dancing sticks, diva statures, dorjes, dreidles, durgas, first communion dresses, ganeshas, garlands, gregers, guru gobind singhs, guru nanaks, hanumans, head scarves, hunger cloths, icons, ihrams, Ik Onkars, kacheras, kanghas, karas, kara parshad bowls, kalis, kiddush cups, kirpans, krishnas (hare?), lakshamis, madonnas (not her!), malas, mandirs, masks, matzahs menorahs, mezuzahs, necklaces, offering bowls, plates (medina), prayer - beads & flags & hats & mats & wheels, puja trays, qur'ans, rakhis, rama & sitas, ramadarbars, rumalas, sarasvatis, seder plates, shivas, shabbat candlesticks & puppets, shofars, skull caps, spices & spice boxes, stoups, tallits, tambourines, tasbis, teffilins, trimurtis, triptyches, vishnus, votive memorial items, wafers, weddign garlands & dresses & cakes & veils & jewelery, yads and Zitzit Katans! That outta about cover it! (Whew!!!) --majicman (Always trade UP in both quantity and quality and Geocaches will be both self-sustaining and self-improving!) And you managed to fit that in ONE large ammo box? You are a better person than I! I like your point. I also would like to make the point that religious views are very much like political views (and every one has one). The reason I am against non-disclosed religious themed caches (not against the freedom of religion) is that it violates my civil rights. I have a right to believe what I believe as do you. However, you do not have the right to push your believes on me, nor is the reverse true. It is the same with politics. Yes, we have the right to free speech and expression, but you do not have the right to lead my into a room under false pretenses. The other reason I have a problem with these kinds of caches comes from the similar reasoning. If "christian" caches are allowed, do we allo Islamic (complete with a home made suicide kit)? (Sorry, I have Islamic friends and even we joke about it, no offense was intended, I was being sarcastic myself.) Do we allow Satanic caches? How about "Adult-only" caches (since I've seen a few kid only caches)? Where do we draw the line here? Bear & Ting P.S. If anyone is interested, or has not figured it out, I am agnostic. I believe in God, but in a different way than most. If you want to know more, just email me. Geocachers don't NEED to ask for directions! Quote Link to comment
BassoonPilot Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 What's the problem? You aren't required to take anything from the cache, so don't. There is no guarantee that everybody will find something they want in every cache. If there is a logbook, sign it and write your objection there. Do the same in your log to the cache page. Quote Link to comment
irvingdog Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 wtf dont call me a troll a******. read my post it was the first one we tried to find and we left it without doing anything so what Hey buddy, do what you want with the GPSr, keep on caching, whatever, but pleas e, avoid open forums until you have a grasp on conduct and slang. Pardon the person who assumed, but "troll" is someone who whips a forum up into a frenzy just for laughs. You are clearly new to the forums and the hobby (we can tell by looking at your re gistration date and number of caches found) so the person who used this term guessed that you may have been an outsider looking to start a flame war (bickering). The posters decision to use the term troll is also based on your lack of addition to this con versation today, as well as a lack of contributions to any other threads. Jeremy and the admins. (as well as most of civil society) generally frown upon name calling, especially names you wouldn't say around your kids or grandmother. Now relax a little bit there tough-guy and have that hot button looked at, it seemed to ignite pretty quickly. And watch your language, please. That is just not cool in a public place.E 0 Quote Link to comment
+honeychile Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 Golly, I think the whole thread has been interesting. No one seemed to get too bent, several viewpoints were discussed, much humor displayed, there was a minimum of name-calling, and almost no blood spilt. A good time was had by all! I, too, was curious about why cyarnell didn't log his find, disappointing as it was for him, and wrote to him privately to encourage him to go ahead and log it. I hope he'll do it and chalk this initial episode up to experience. Keep 'Caching, -honeychile- -- '*+.,_,.+*'`'*+.,_A joyful heart is good medicine!_,.+*'`'*+.,_,.+*'` Quote Link to comment
+majicman Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Bear & Ting:(snip) I also would like to make the point that religious views are very much like political views (and every one has one). Bear & Ting Precisely the long-winded point I was attempting to make! I was trying to include ALL of the major religions of the world and some of their trinkets they use to show just how hard (and silly) it would be to try to fairly represent all religions and their trinkets in a fair way in a cache... I'm sorry, I'm waxing messianic here. --majicman (Always trade UP in both quantity and quality and Geocaches will be both self-sustaining and self-improving!) P.S. It wasn't really a fair list! I couldn't find one item for the 700 thousand Rastafarianists. This could be due to their advocating nonviolence and rejecting materialism... or, I could put in ganga, hey mon?! Quote Link to comment
chloew Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 quote:The reason I am against non-disclosed religious themed caches (not against the freedom of religion) is that it violates my civil rights. I have a right to believe what I believe as do you. However, you do not have the right to push your believes on me, nor is the reverse true. It is the same with politics. Yes, we have the right to free speech and expression, but you do not have the right to lead my into a room under false pretenses. The other reason I have a problem with these kinds of caches comes from the similar reasoning. If "christian" caches are allowed, do we allow Islamic (complete with a home made suicide kit)? (Sorry, I have Islamic friends and even we joke about it, no offense was intended, I was being sarcastic myself.) Do we allow Satanic caches? How about "Adult-only" caches (since I've seen a few kid only caches)? Where do we draw the line here? I don't think placing a tupperware containing religious materials in the wilderness and hiding it so that hopefully few people will find it, is violating your civil rights, even if I tell you where it is. If I absolutely mislead you by making false statements about the contents I might agree with you, but if I make no statements about the contents I do not think I am 'leading you into a room under false pretenses'. Basically geocaching is about finding caches and discovering what's there. If we don't like the contents we do not have to take it, but it should not be up to individual cachers to censor the contents of a cache for other cachers. If the cache owner has a problem with the contents she can remove objectionable material as part of maintaining the cache, but I heartily disagree with other cachers doing mass removing of material they do not like. If you want to trade for any item, go for it. Also I am in favor of and willing to argue for allowing cache themes for any religion (Islam, Hindu, etc.) as long as the contents is safe for all cachers (i.e. not suicide kits). Actually I wouldn't mind learning more about religions and cultures that I am not familiar with. I also personally have no problem with adult-only caches as I don't have any kids, but I do respect and adhere to the generally accepted guideline that caches should be kid friendly. Quote Link to comment
+bigeddy Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Jeremy Irish: Religious tracts and other ads are the same as brochures for a travel resort. Remove the tracts and any other items. Honestly, a bible in a cache is not a big deal but Jehovah's witness in a can is a bit much. Jeremy Irish Groundspeak - The Language of Location Amen. Quote Link to comment
mdmax371 Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 quote: ___________________ No Caches in Parks? ___________________ I first saw it HERE after you go to this page click on the link that Jeremy provides and that takes you to the new rules for placing caches. After your done with that go HERE were I made my first post and thats were the topic on parks start. Most of the people were saying that virtual caches were ok in national parks but not the traditional cache. If you search for caches you will see alot of them are in National Parks and there not virtual. Just curious why these aren't archived. I don't think they should be personally but then again if you enforce one rule you should enforce the rest. [This message was edited by mdmax371 on June 25, 2002 at 04:58 PM.] Quote Link to comment
+Faithwalker & DaMama Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 I guess the moral of this story is if you ALWAYS post that it's a themed cache AND/OR the contents of the cache, the SEEKER will have the opportunity to decide if the cache is one they want to hunt. If it's been out in the field for a while, read the logs to see if the things traded will be of your interest or not. Or just go find it, not worry about it and have fun. ...Cache Responsible & may all your birds be in view... ...Faithwalker & DaMama... Quote Link to comment
+Faderaven Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 quote: If you want to put WWJD bracelets in caches, bibles, the Torah, a voodoo doll, feel free. But to create a box of tracts deviates from the light nature of the sport. Jeremy Irish Groundspeak - The Language of Location COOL! I want a voodoo doll!! Quote Link to comment
k2dave Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 quote:Jeremy you are wrong. I second that. For any of you who fear that by putting a 'tract' item in a cache will cause that person to convert - ask yourself does that make any sense at all? What lowly opinion of your fellow man do you have that he can be swayed so easily? Or more importantly what are you afraid of? You may have a chance of getting a cacher to go to McD's if there is a extra value meal buy one get one free coupon but you are not going to change his faith. If you don't like the items in the cache don't take any. ----(sig line)---> Did you ever do any trail maintainence? - if so you will know that all but the most worn trails need continuous maintenance to prevent mother nature from reclaiming it. herd paths are quickly reclaimed - k2dave Quote Link to comment
+Alan2 Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 84 posts in 2 days and counting! Interesting. What is it about religion that fires up the spirit on all coordinates of the map? (pun intended) Alan Quote Link to comment
+Alan2 Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 84 posts in 2 days and counting! Interesting. What is it about religion that fires up the spirit on all coordinates of the map? (pun intended) Alan Quote Link to comment
+Mudfrog Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 I agree with Faithwalker and DaMama with their response. Their quote: I guess the moral of this story is if you ALWAYS post that it's a themed cache AND/OR the contents of the cache, the SEEKER will have the opportunity to decide if the cache is one they want to hunt. If it's been out in the field for a while, read the logs to see if the things traded will be of your interest or not. Or just go find it, not worry about it and have fun. I agree with many here that just finding the cache is where the excitement lies. Heck, if all i was after was contents then i would surely be disappointed at times. The usual bad stuff (porn, cig butts, gum wrappers, food, explosives, etc,,, shouldnt be included. If its a theme cache, make sure its stated on the cache page. I dont understand why this is such a biggie!!! Quote Link to comment
+Bluespreacher Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin): quote:Originally posted by sbell111: The position of Geocaching.com is that religious tracts are verboten. Therefore, they should be removed from caches, if found. Organized religion is not on trial here, so don't divert the topic. If you want to put WWJD bracelets in caches, bibles, the Torah, a voodoo doll, feel free. But to create a box of tracts deviates from the light nature of the sport. Jeremy Irish Groundspeak - The Language of Location It would seem strange to find a cache that was nothing but literature. What would you trade? But it seems to be a distinctly different matter to leave an item of a religious nature in a cache, or in your own cache. Certainly, any 'themed' cache should be described as such. Of course, the cache owner should do as he sees fit in the course of normal cache maintenace, it is his cache, after all. Bluespreacher "We've got the hardware and the software, the plans and the maps ..." -- Citizen Wayne Kramer Quote Link to comment
Milgren Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Jeremy Irish: Religious tracts and other ads are the same as brochures for a travel resort. Remove the tracts and any other items. Full agreement here, and I did remove (that is, trade out) one offending religious item a while back. I see proselytizing religious cache items as being just as bad as pornographic or hate literature. I certainly wouldn't want my child to excitedly open a cache container and be exposed to any of it. Don't misunderstand me here, I don't object to cache items with angels or religious symbols, those I can just ignore. It is when the material is of a proselytizing nature, trying to convince someone that they need to change their "incorrect ways" and embrace someone else's "true faith", even if the tract is phrased in such a way as to be an "offer" or a "gift". Incidentally, isn't that how people try to get you addicted to certain illegal substances? "The first one's free"? I strongly support the protections of the First Amendment, and I think that everyone has the right to believe what they want to. I would really just rather not see Geocaching used as a medium for argument over whose ideas are better than others. It is really no different than commercial advertisements in caches. There are plenty of other arenas for debate over politics, world affairs and religion. Quote Link to comment
Milgren Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 I did want to say that I'm glad that this topic has come up again, and that I'm particularly pleased that the responses this time around are much more civil than last time. I hope that bwolv sees this one and enjoys the ongoing discussion in a happier environment! -- Quote Link to comment
+Alan2 Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Milgren: I did want to say that I'm glad that this topic has come up again, and that I'm particularly pleased that the responses this time around are much more civil than last time. I hope that bwolv sees this one and enjoys the ongoing discussion in a happier environment! -- Ah, come on, you're being disingenuous. In your last post you compare cachers who place religious literature in caches to be the same as pornographers. To make a damning comment like that and then hide under the flag of "civility" is being a coward. If you feel strong about your belief, whatever it is, just state it and let the chips fall where they may. ALan Quote Link to comment
Eric O'Connor Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Alan2:Ah, come on, you're being disingenuous. In your last post you compare cachers who place religious literature in caches to be the same as pornographers. ALan Speaking for myself, I'd rather find the porn. Rkprcg sbe qbt cbea, n zna pna bayl ernq fb zhpu qbt cbea. The way I see it, if you want to include your own personally written testimony in a cache, that's something I can appreciate whether you're a preacher or a politician. If it's something that's mass produced to alter the way people think, whether it was printed by GreenPeace or the NRA, I don't want to find it. I too think this thread's initiator has a summer home under a bridge, but I tend to think that way. Quote Link to comment
Milgren Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Alan2: Ah, come on, you're being disingenuous. In your last post you compare cachers who place religious literature in caches to be the same as pornographers. To make a damning comment like that and then hide under the flag of "civility" is being a coward. I did not intend to imply that the _cacher_ that places the religious tract is the same as a pornographer. My point is that I personally view the two _items_ as being equally offensive and inappropriate for placement in caches. Others may not, and I respect their right to believe what they wish. To me, the worst case scenario for politics or religion in geocaches would be this. During a heated political campaign, a few cachers bring their argument into our fair recreational activity and try to push their side of the issue by placing "voting guides" or anti-[insert politician's name here] literature in caches. If a newcomer to Geocaching were to find their very first cache and it was full of political debate and slander, they might feel as though they had just walked in on somebody else's argument and feel really uncomfortable. It would seem that Cyarnell's encounter was a very similar event. I would just rather not find the political material in a cache in the first place, unless it were a clearly labelled theme cache open for opposing views. Why bother bringing the debate into the sport at all? Quote Link to comment
Geo Quest Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 I've been caching since April 2001 and I've changed religions three times! What will my beliefs be after I find my next cache? I can't wait to find out! Does anybody here know anyone who was converted via a pamphlet? Back on topic: No, it's not typical, but you will find it every now and then. My advice: cache and be happy. It's not about the shtuff. "There's no need to be afraid of strange noises in the night. Anything that intends you harm will stalk you silently." Quote Link to comment
+bigredmed Posted June 26, 2002 Share Posted June 26, 2002 In conclusion, let us agree on some things. 1. In light of the hot-button effect these two topics have in forums,Religion and Politics are two thread topics that are officially "archived" from these forums. 2. Caches are for the game, not for promoting anything else. 3. When placing cache items, remember the Golden Rule: Cache unto others as you would have them cache unto you... Quote Link to comment
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