Need a ruling from the group

August 12, 2002

Here is the context of an email sent to Jeremy, the Cache-master. My question involved gaining permision to place a cache in the Minnesota State Fairgrounds during the Fair. Here is my justification to bend the "comercial" event rule.

1. It would bring some good media attention to our sport. There has been some issues regarding our State Parks. So my first attempt would be to ask the DNR to host the cache. Here is their current stance.

"Geocaching prohibited in the Minnesota State Park system.... Due to concerns related to natural resource protection, visitor safety, staff workloads and liability, geocaches are not permitted on lands administered by the Minnesota State Park System. Caches that were placed in state parks without permission must be removed by July 1, 2002. After that time, they will be considered abandoned property."

2. Many people come to the Twin Cities only to attend the Fair. Sometimes in bus groups, car pools etc. This would provide a way for them to pick up a far away cache.

Jeremy has left the decision to the colective group. I have included the entire text of our corespondance below.

Thanks in advance for your input.

Tim, Sandy, Brooke, Shane, Jake, and Sammy Folkenson

********** ***************

Unfortunately as it is a commercial event it would most likely not be approved. My suggestion is to post your idea to the forums and see what people think. If a majority rules for it, I’ll post it to the site.

Jeremy

-----Original Message-----

From: Folkenson, Tim [mailto:tfolkenson@healtheast.org]

Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 6:13 AM

To: contact@Groundspeak.com

Cc: Chad.Towle@ecolab.com

Subject: [GEN-020812.17936] Placing a cache at a State Fair

Good Morning,

FriendlyFolks here.

Towlebooth and I were talking about placing a cache at the Minnesota State Fair. He was concerned that it would be rejected because it would technically be a temporary site. Would you allow us to post a cache in the State Fair temporarily? After the Fair, we would move it about 1/4 mile away to a small park near the Fairgrounds. The theme would be based on the State Fair http://www.mnstatefair.org/ and it would be placed in a booth to avoid vandalism.

Thanks for your consideration,

Tim Folkenson, MCP, CNA

IT System Administrator

HealthEast, Midway Campus

651-232-1289

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"

Benjamin Franklin, ca. 1755

8.9k · August 12, 2002

Is the place 1/4 mile away in the Minnesota State Parks system? If not, then why not just place the cache there to begin with? Then people wouldn't have to pay the entrance fee to find the cache.

Markwell

Chicago Geocaching

1.4k · August 12, 2002

I have no problem with it, as long as permission is obtained (at least from the booth manager) ahead of time, and as long as nobody is expected to purchase anything or get a sales pitch at the booth. It's no more commercial than a cache placed in a park requiring an admission fee. There are caches in state parks, zoos, and amusement parks. I don't see this as being much different.

If permission is unattainable, then a multi-cache with the final destination in the nearby park might be a good alternative.

August 12, 2002

That is an alternative. My logic was more related to the positive media coverage if it's in the Fair. All of the local new stations broadcast the 5,6, and 10pm news on the grounds for 10 days so they all clamer for unique stories related to the fair.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"

Benjamin Franklin, ca. 1755

August 12, 2002

I've been going to MN sate fair for all my life, and will continue to do so, as long as I continue to live here. This, would just be another great reason to go. Go for it.

August 12, 2002

Yeah, I really like the idea, but it would be good to get some permission first...MN (well the northern part) needs some more geocaches

jhwf4

9.2k · August 12, 2002

It's better than a yard sale!

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-

"Daddy, are we there yet? No, .17 to go. Are we there yet? No, .16 to go....."

August 12, 2002

First reaction was , NO.

Thought about it, a cache at the State Fair, 'hidden' in a booth, with a 10 day lifespan. Heck NO.

On top of that, I believe any publicity such a cache might generate will only tell half the story, the wrong half at that.

I would suggest to hide it at the nearby park. Any serious cachers who come from far away will notice the proximity to the fair and visit your cache a quarter mile away.

My $ .02

3.1k · August 12, 2002

I think it sounds fair (oops, no pun intended). It's sort of like an extended event, and like other events, the cache is still available aferward.

You could also cite precedent: This cache is tied to at a Sci Fi convention, and it's apparently been approved.

The media idea is a little off, I think, though. Would the news have their cameras trained on the booth, telling every one there's a secret treasure inside? Kinda ruins the hunt, no?

3.1k · August 12, 2002

I think it sounds fair (oops, no pun intended). It's sort of like an extended event, and like other events, the cache is still available aferward.

You could also cite precedent: This cache is tied to at a Sci Fi convention, and it's apparently been approved.

The media idea is a little off, I think, though. Would the news have their cameras trained on the booth, telling every one there's a secret treasure inside? Kinda ruins the hunt, no?

August 12, 2002

At first glance I would say no, but with the problems you have had in the state park system I say yes. If it's possible to place an "official" cache and gain some much needed good will by bending (not breaking) the commercialism rules then I go for it. I only say this if the cache can be placed with permission from all involved.

Placing a cache nearby would be using a cache to highlight the fair, placing it inside is using the fair to highlight caching, a distinct difference.

Rusty...

Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page

August 12, 2002

I don't know- I don't really have a problem with it- so I guess I vote yes, you should be *allowed*...

BUT I think maybe a better way to do it would be to place it in it's permanent location and have a fair theme... Maybe for the duration of the fair, you could put in some tickets, etc that can be used there?

Or... if you could hide it somewhere other than in one of the booths... Somewhere out of the way of the way. Part of the fun of caching is that you have to sneak around so no one sees what you're doing.

But I think you should be allowed to post it- just make it clear what will be visited and if people don't want to come, they don't have to.

I don't see it as commercial, myself, unless someone is profiting (or trying ) from it. I see a fair as a public place, just as a park, personally.

Tara P

August 12, 2002

I don't know- I don't really have a problem with it- so I guess I vote yes, you should be *allowed*...

BUT I think maybe a better way to do it would be to place it in it's permanent location and have a fair theme... Maybe for the duration of the fair, you could put in some tickets, etc that can be used there?

Or... if you could hide it somewhere other than in one of the booths... Somewhere out of the way of the way. Part of the fun of caching is that you have to sneak around so no one sees what you're doing.

But I think you should be allowed to post it- just make it clear what will be visited and if people don't want to come, they don't have to.

I don't see it as commercial, myself, unless someone is profiting (or trying ) from it. I see a fair as a public place, just as a park, personally.

Tara P

3.1k · August 12, 2002

Of course allow the cache. Come on Jeremy, it sounds like fun. I'd go log that cache if it were close enough.

Never Squat With Yer Spurs On

August 12, 2002

I does not appear that this cache has a commercial or promotional purpose (other than promoting Geocaching!). It's alright with me.

I don't blame the admin though for being reluctant - and it is nice to know that they are leaving this one up to us.

If it is approved, I hope we don't see others using it as a precedent to argue that their obviously commercial/promotional cache should be allowed.

You may not agree with what I say, but I will defend, to your death, my right to say it!(it's a Joke, OK!)

4.5k · August 12, 2002

Would this be a standard issue cache or maybe a virtual? I love the idea of either being allowed but im just not sure where you might hide a standard cache as to not be found and plundered in seconds! Also not sure it would be a good idea to try to hide something away from the main areas then "sneak" around to find it. Security will no doubt be a bit high. Of course with getting the permission, then security could be given notice and therefore not try to haul someone off for looking suspicious in a more remote area.

If you have all this covered then i think it is a great idea!

August 12, 2002

I don't think having a cache at a fair is a great idea. I vote for having it at the permanent site you suggested 1/4 mile away. Putting tickets in the cache, or other fair-related theme is fine, in my opinion.

My concerns are many, but probably primarily that we already are having enough trouble with people plundering caches, pissing off park personnel, and basically acting irresponsibly. I don't think the sport needs the kind of influx of people it would get if it was publicized. What if some schmuck decided to get drunk and belligerant and tell the media that he/she is a Geocacher? That would not be very good coverage at all.

I've been a member of a group that was very responsible and trust-based, as Geocaching is, and that whole aura of trust was destroyed once someone decided it would be a good idea to publicize the group and "get more members". It didn't take a whole lot of publicizing before we were getting a really inconsiderate people in the group.

What was the upshot? You tell me: how much spam do you get in your inbox? Did you know that there was a time when there was no spam on the Internet?

I really do not want Geocaching to become a wasteland like the Internet has become.

Shannah

who remembers the Internet when everyone left their mail servers unlocked so that other sysadmins could fix them if there was a problem off-shift. Not anymore!!

August 12, 2002

HJS Wrote:

"Thought about it, a cache at the State Fair, 'hidden' in a booth, with a 10 day lifespan. Heck NO. On top of that, I believe any publicity such a cache might generate will only tell half the story, the wrong half at that."

The Cache would be hidden under the counter of the DNR information booth or at the State Fair Information Center. (Something non-commercial or NON-evenue generating place.) Regarding the Media pointing at the booth, I would look for an interview to promote caching and state there was a cache hidden on the grounds. I wouldn't consider hiding anything due to 9/11 security issues etc. The opportunity for promotion and discussion regarding caching to occur between cachers and the DNR group could be hugely beneficial and since the MN State Fair is tagged as the "Great MN Get Together" and a "Family Event", the news would pick up on it take the family theme to another level. Just trying to clarify the details.

Friendlyfolks

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"

Benjamin Franklin, ca. 1755

3.1k · August 13, 2002

quote:
The Cache would be hidden under the counter of the DNR information booth or at the State Fair Information Center.

Hmm, but will the Minnesota DNR allow geocaching in their booths? I've heard it's been a problem in their parks.

What about having the cache itself in the outside location, but somehow having the finders get clues from within the fair? A multi-part virtual that ultimately gives you the final coords to the physical? After the fair, just provide the coordinates directly on the web site. I guess that doesn't really avoid the "commercial" question. Just tossing out ideas here.

Tickets in the cache and involving the DNR booth are both great ideas. Don't leave corn dogs or coton candy in the cache, though.

3.1k · August 13, 2002

quote:
The Cache would be hidden under the counter of the DNR information booth or at the State Fair Information Center.

Hmm, but will the Minnesota DNR allow geocaching in their booths? I've heard it's been a problem in their parks.

What about having the cache itself in the outside location, but somehow having the finders get clues from within the fair? A multi-part virtual that ultimately gives you the final coords to the physical? After the fair, just provide the coordinates directly on the web site. I guess that doesn't really avoid the "commercial" question. Just tossing out ideas here.

Tickets in the cache and involving the DNR booth are both great ideas. Don't leave corn dogs or coton candy in the cache, though.

August 13, 2002

First choice is to get one of the non-comercial groups to agree to host the cache. I plan to hit up the DNR folks and the State Fair Info Booth or maybe the campground office Maybe one of the ticket booths or the bike corral so you could bike up to it without having to pay to get in. I'm sure there are other options but I'd need to get permision from Jeremy, then the Fair.

Second option is a virtual cache. I have four kids that like to find the "treasure" and plunder the booty(yes, we add more than we take) so I'd prefer a normal cache. Adding up the number of cars on the ferris wheel, divided by the number of Porta Potties by the horse barn, added to the number of windows on the FHA building sounds like fun too.

I may approach these folks and get shut down. My first step is this group, then Jeremy grants/denies perrmision, then I hit up the fair.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"

Benjamin Franklin, ca. 1755

August 13, 2002

Jeremy, please post this one! We've got lots of good people who are working really hard in the best interests of geocaching and public perception.

It's a game folks..........

August 13, 2002

As one of the stated owners of the proposed cache I'm obviously for it. I want to assure everyone that we would seek permission from fair booth owners in a respectful manner and if shot down, so be it, we will either do a fair-themed cache nearby or do a virtual cache within the fair grounds.

The post above regarding media coverage being a possible negative is an interesting point that I need to consider further.

My hope is to open another line of dialog with the MN DNR through this and show them how fun caching can be, without disturbing their parks until we have permission.

--towlebooth

August 13, 2002

Yes, post this cache! I think it is a teriffic idea!

Bert

August 13, 2002

I think the State Fair is a great idea. I go every year. I thought about this the other day. We could make it a yearly event, moving it around. I think it should be a Secure Cache however. We may get press on this, it might as well be positive. We are coming up with some ideas for this to make this activity more safer in high density areas. If it is near the DNR building, this would give them an example of how a Secure Cache may work. It would be a good experiment!

A Secure Cache is an ammo box with a padlock on it. The whole thing can be bolted or chained to an object. I currently have two of them in use in the Minneapolis area. They are new, so we will see how they work.

But yes, I say go for it. Maybe some vendor will let your bolt it to their booth. Or behind it. Do it right though, and get permission.

August 13, 2002

Of course post it, it'll be fun!!!

My Geojournal: Bump On A Log

**NEW: MN Geocaching Group GEM

August 13, 2002

I just realized, one of my besfriends owns an annual (and a real classic) booth at the fair, and is there around the clock.

Towlebooth or Friendlyfolk: are you interested in using his? Private mail me........

It's a game folks..........

August 13, 2002

If you can get the DNR to have it at their booth, how about making it a "GeoCaching" theme (instead of a "Fair" theme). Compasses, hiking items, mini-first aid kits, Cache In/Trash Out bags, something for the kids, etc. would make a good impression. I'd be happy to send a few items for the cache (showing the DNR what a nice community cachers are).

Either way, I like the idea.

August 13, 2002

I don't see any problem with this cache. However, If it were me, I would make it a multi with the real cache at the park you propose for its permanent location, and only coords available at the fair (or maybe a pamplet to go with the coords) If you are concerned about excessive traffic at the park if hundreds of people decide to seek your cache, make it a little more complicated with an offset or something.

What would be really cool is if you could have one of those free viewable 3-D images made up with the lat/longs of the cache. You know the kind I am talking about, the images that look like white noise dots until you cross (or actually un-cross) your eyes just right.

I used to have some software that would let you create your own image...

3.9k · August 13, 2002

If you can get DNR to agree to this, I think it's a great idea! The more you can get DNR and cachers to interface with one another the better. Maybe each will stop thinking that the other is a two headed monster from Mars.

El Diablo

Everything you do in life...will impact someone,for better or for worse.

August 13, 2002

I have to say OK

As long as the cache is very well put together.

Good Luck

Weezer

August 13, 2002

and I don't see this as commercial. I really like that you're trying to open dialogue with the DNR and going the permission route. It takes more work, certainly, but I think it's better in the long run. Good luck!

GeoMedic - team leader of GeoStars

August 13, 2002

I say it ought to be in the fairgrounds itself, but personally I do not want to be hauling my geocache stuff (GPS, dosh, compass, etc) all over the fair with all the other junk I end up hauling around with my kidlets and husband and such (you all know what I mean!) -- this could be a deterrant to some geocachers.

All in all this is a WONDERFUL idea!

I will gladly donate what is left of my patriotic 'Yesterdays Hero's' cache dosh and I also have lots and lots of wonderful things left over in my 'Ingrid's Place' cache, from the GEM picnic.

Heck -- how would you feel about finding a spot to put Ingrid's in addition to your cache? (it is a really nice cache -- ask Jillibean) It is still in great shape, has terrific contents and ready to go. How would the DNR like a girly-gal cache at the fair??? I will even replace the finder ribbons.

1.8k · August 13, 2002

The Do The Puyallup cache was similar to this one, and was approved last year (before my caching career started), and I'm hoping to see it again this year.

''Thanks, it beat having to go look at the quilts.'' -- Best log of them all, and it was a not-found

"Why don't you just ask somebody?"

"No, no. I've got a map. Don't worry about that."

1.8k · August 13, 2002

The Do The Puyallup cache was similar to this one, and was approved last year (before my caching career started), and I'm hoping to see it again this year.

''Thanks, it beat having to go look at the quilts.'' -- Best log of them all, and it was a not-found

"Why don't you just ask somebody?"

"No, no. I've got a map. Don't worry about that."

2.5k · August 13, 2002

Since it's only for a few days, why not make it an "event cache" with an actual cache available for the duration of the "event"?

August 14, 2002

I think it's a great idea. Isn't Ron Shaara from KARE 11 and the Strib involved with the DNR booth, or does he have a booth of his own? Maybe we can get him addicted to Geocaching. It would be great to get a popular local TV/Newspaper Outdoors reporter turned on to our sport. 15T

Think Globally, Act Locally

August 14, 2002

I'm travelling from England to visit the fair, so it would be nice to have something else to look forward to other than corn dogs.

Alex.

August 14, 2002

There was a cache at the San Diego County Fair this summer; it was a microcache hidden in an unobtrusive spot. After the fair ended, it was hidden elsewhere near the faigrounds. There didn't seem to be any problems with its approval, and it was a fun thing to do at the fair. I didn't think it really violated commercial cache rules; it's not like it was there for the sake of enticing people to pay for fair admission. I can see how there are gray areas with putting a cache in a place that requires an admission fee, but that also applies to some parks these days..

August 14, 2002

It sounds like you're bad-mouthing corn dogs. A dangerous thing to do here in Minnesota .

Matt, I've tried to contact Ron Schara several times about doing an expo of geocaching, and I'm going to talk to him again this weekend. He hates contraversy! His well honed nice-guy image could be dashed with one story that offends anyone.

It's a game folks..........

August 14, 2002

It sounds like you're bad-mouthing corn dogs. A dangerous thing to do here in Minnesota .

Matt, I've tried to contact Ron Schara several times about doing an expo of geocaching, and I'm going to talk to him again this weekend. He hates contraversy! His well honed nice-guy image could be dashed with one story that offends anyone.

It's a game folks..........

August 14, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Irvingdog:
It sounds like you're bad-mouthing corn dogs. A dangerous thing to do here in Minnesota .

Not at all, but I have been know to bad mouth the Vikings from time to time. Although I just bought tickets to see them on 8/23.

Go Titans

Anyone going to the fair on Thursday, Let me know.

g1ant@hotmail.com

Alex

August 14, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Irvingdog:
It sounds like you're bad-mouthing corn dogs. A dangerous thing to do here in Minnesota .

Not at all, but I have been know to bad mouth the Vikings from time to time. Although I just bought tickets to see them on 8/23.

Go Titans

Anyone going to the fair on Thursday, Let me know.

g1ant@hotmail.com

Alex

August 21, 2002

Hi all,

Looks like we have consensus from the majority here to go ahead with a cache at a private booth at the MN State Fair. A friend of another local cacher has agreed to allow one at his fair booth.

When I post the new cache I will mention this thread so the moderators can see the group's feelings.

See you at the Great Minnesota Get-Together!

--TB

Need a ruling from the group

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