Should a traveler be left in a cache for someone specific?

2.1k · September 22, 2003

Should a geocoin or travel bug (traveler) be placed in a cache by someone other than the traveler's owner with a note that it be saved for someone specific who is not, in someway identified in the traveler's instructions?

Clarification: This question is NOT about the routing of traveler as intended by the traveler owner or with any actions that assist the traveler toward its goal as stated by the traveler owner.

Clarification #2: I'm refering to trackable geocoins intended to be travelers. I suspect that not all geocoins are meant to be travelers. Sorry for the confusion.

In light of a recent related incident I would like to see that subject discussed as a legitimate question.

That problem involved a placer (not the traveler owner) with nothing less than good intentions, a recipient who believed they had a right to receive the traveler and an intermediate finder who believed they had a right "find" the traveler.

A suggestion was posted, very roughly paraphrased here: "Who owns a traveler? Is it the original owner, the placer (or within the confines of this subject) the recipient?"

Associated questions:

Is a traveler fair game once it has been placed in a cache that is not an intermediate or final destination as designated by the traveler owner?

If you found this traveler would recording its number, leaving it in the cache where you found it, then logging it as a find feel like a "real" find to you?

Would you feel denied if you could not take the traveler to place in another cache or otherwise be consistent with the traveler owner's instructions?

Does the recipient have the obligation to beat the competition to the cache?

Note: We might need to assume that the traveler was placed after the finder's cache page print out or data download and without attached instructions.

[This message was edited by Team Sagefox on September 23, 2003 at 07:04 AM.]

4.8k · September 22, 2003

It is done alot with travel bugs. For example, people use the Tb as a way to send things to each other. Here is an example where one is being sent to me. In this case, the bug is my own and is trying to get home to me. It also is currently sitting in a cache for a specific person who will be traveling my direction to pick it up.

Anyway, I'm fine with the idea. I do think, however, that it should be clear as possible from the bug or coin page so that people don't make unecessary trips to pick up something that was left specifically for someone else.

4.8k · September 22, 2003

To answer the other associated questions:

quote:
If you found this traveler would recording its number, leaving it in a cache, then logging it as a find feel like a "real" find to you?

No. I don't do this. At the same time, some people do, and that is OK with me. It is a matter of personal preference.

quote:
Would you feel denied if you could not take the traveler to place in another cache or otherwise be consistent with the traveler owner's instructions?

I don't think it would bother me all that much. I suppose if I drove a long way with no warning that I couldn't take it, I would be annoyed, but I get over such things quickly.

quote:
Does the recipient have the obligation to beat the competition to the cache?

No. You never know when the recipient might be out of town etc. When my TB comes home, I will get out to retrieve it ASAP, but I would like to trust that if I'm out of town or something, that it will be there for me when I get home.

September 22, 2003

quote:
Should a geocoin or travel bug (traveler) be placed in a cache by someone other than the traveler's owner with a note that it be saved for someone specific who is not, in someway identified in the traveler's instructions?

Yes.

quote:
Is a geocoin or travel bug (traveler) fair game once it has been placed in a cache that is not an intermediate or final destination as designated by the traveler owner?

Of course. Unless it has someone else's name on it.

quote:
If you found this traveler would recording its number, leaving it in a cache, then logging it as a find feel like a "real" find to you?

I assume you mean leaving it in the same cache in which you discovered it. It probably wouldn't feel like a "real" find but them's the breaks.

quote:
Would you feel denied if you could not take the traveler to place in another cache or otherwise be consistent with the traveler owner's instructions?

That's mostly why I don't collect TB. If they don't have their destinations attached to them it's impossible to know what to do with them. If I know the TBs destination or goal ahead of time AND I can further it to its goal, I will take it. Otherwise I leave it for someone else.

quote:
Does the recipient have the obligation to beat the competition to the cache?

Nope. It's theirs and they can come collect it at their convenience. Could take hours, could take months. Doesn't matter. If it's clearly labelled for someone else, it's not mine to take.

Also, this is loaded question. If it has their name on it, how could they have "competition" for it? Do you have "competition" for your birthday presents??

Ode to a Pigeon: Roses are Red, Violets are Blue, You Lookin' at Me? YOU LOOKIN' AT ME?! (b. katt, 7/14/03)

2.1k · September 22, 2003

If there is a note attached to an item, whether it be a traveler, coin, or swwag, then I think the moral thing to do is leave it there. If the TB or coin number is visible and another sees it in the cache and wants to log it as a find, then it wouldn't bother me. They actually did find it. I won't do it though.

There are a couple of cacher teams locally here that leave things in caches for each other. It's pretty neat to see a envelope or something for another cacher. I just ignore it and look at the other stuff. I think of it like mail. If it's my mail, I will open it. If it's someone elses, then I don't bother.

Better words for the situation... mind your own business..?

Brian

www.woodsters.com

2.3k · September 22, 2003

Yes, as long as it is clearly marked.

---------------------------------------------------

Free your mind and the rest will follow

And may no Admin bricks fly your way

September 22, 2003

I think we all take it for a given that there are some items in a cache that aren't for trade. The pen and logbook, for example. Or cache camera. In my opinion, I don't think that it's much more of a stretch to see some items as "not for trade" alongside these - such as items intended for anyone else.

quote:
Should a geocoin or travel bug (traveler) be placed in a cache by someone other than the traveler's owner with a note that it be saved for someone specific who is not, in someway identified in the traveler's instructions?

I don't see that it shouldn't be. After all, whoever comes across it will know its for them, and anyone else will know that it's not.

quote:
res2100 posted an unanswered suggestion, very roughly paraphrased: "Who owns a traveler? Is it the original owner, the placer (or within the confines of this subject) the recipient?"

I don't think that anyone "owns" a traveller, but travellers have goals, and its a part of the game we play to help travellers to reach those goals. If the goal of a traveller is to reach someone, whether named or not, then we as players should help it complete that goal.

quote:
Is a geocoin or travel bug (traveler) fair game once it has been placed in a cache that is not an intermediate or final destination as designated by the traveler owner?

Yes, unless it had a highly specific goal which I could not fulfill - like having to reach cache X by the following day, or was intended for someone else.

quote:
If you found this traveler would recording its number, leaving it in a cache, then logging it as a find feel like a "real" find to you?

Yes, but if I didn't need to move it, I would probably not log it.

quote:
Would you feel denied if you could not take the traveler to place in another cache or otherwise be consistent with the traveler owner's instructions?

Not at all

quote:
Does the recipient have the obligation to beat the competition to the cache?

I don't think they do at all - indeed, they might well be on holiday, and not even know the thing is waiting for them until they got home.

quote:
Note: We might need to assume that the traveler was placed after the finder's cache page print out or data download and without attached instructions.

If I took a traveller as in your situation by accident, without knowing it was intended for someone else, I would in my best endeavors take it back and leave an apology in my log.

Or, if that were impossible, I'd contact the person that left it, and try and get it back out that way.

If it happened to me (and I'm sure something like that has on many occasions - we are all human), just because it was a justifiable error, doesn't detract from the idea that it was an error, and I would try to correct it.

------

"There's Sparticus. That's him, over there."

September 22, 2003

If you find a bug without any explanation on it, and you didn't look the bug up before visiting the cache (so you have no idea what its mission is), do you take it?

I've touched a few bugs, but havent taken any, since 1) none of them have had instructions attached 2) I tend to do minimal research befor hitting a cache So I don't know what their mission is and 3) I've seen in the forums that some folks get their panties all in a wad if you don't follow their rules with their bug.

I'd be willing to go back to the same cache and put the bug back w/o logging it if I got home and found I couldn't participate in its mission. However, it would be a drag to be reviled as someone who should be removed from GC.com, banned from the internet and kept from using computers, fire or the wheel just because I had a TB at home for a couple of days and it turns out that the owner wasn't thinking of me when s/he launched the bug.

To take or not to take the mystery bug?

September 22, 2003

I've had occasion to return something I found while at a cache (lost item) and did so by leaving it as a special "one time" geocache that I hid and emailed the owner through Groundspeak. (It was not entered as an actual cache.)

Alongside the issue of right or wrong to do should be advisable or not. An inexperinced cacher might not understand some note reading "this is for Whack-a-mole" means that the item is for an actual person. Good God, look at the trouble people have with travel bugs, and these say "Don't keep this!" right on them.

If you leave something in a cache you should be fully prepared to lose it to the forces of chaos.

3.5k · September 22, 2003

I've seen it several times. In fact, THIS bug was created to be sent to me from Michigan and is now on its way back to the original owner.

All part of the fun.

Bret

"The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field.

When a man found it, he hid it again." Mt. 13:44

September 22, 2003

I was going to launch a geocoin this weekend as "cache mail", but forgetful me left it on my desk and didn't pack it. I still plan to set it out there and see if it makes it to its destination. It is sort of an experiment to see how far or how close it gets. I'm placing it in NH and its goal is to a specific cache in Fl, and to a specific person. It has the instructions clearly written with it as well as the cache name and person it is intended for. I think it will be an interesting test.

38.2k · September 22, 2003

In a perfect world, I'd say fine. But with cache theives and dishonest or clueless geocachers, leaving anything in a cache with the intent of transferring it to another person is not a good idea.

If you must leave something for another geocacher, put it in a Ziploc and hide it someplace else, and e-mail the coordinates to the person. Or you can place encoded coordinates inside the cache and hide the item a short distance away. Only give the key to the code to the intended recipient.

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

September 22, 2003

I agree with you Briansnat, if I intended something for someone in my area I might just do that. However I live in NH and he lives in FL, so we are going to try the cache mail option and see how far it goes. If I lose it I lose it, not the end of the world. I could always FedEx the coin to him, but whats the point of that? Half the fun is going to be watching the progress it makes. Anyone wanna place a geobet on weather it makes it or not?

2.1k · September 22, 2003

Clarification: This question is NOT about the routing of traveler as intended by the traveler owner or with any actions that assist the traveler toward its goal as stated by the traveler owner.

September 22, 2003

sorry was off topic.

Is a traveler fair game once it has been placed in a cache that is not an intermediate or final destination as designated by the traveler owner?

By fair game do you mean take it and keep it? the answer to that is no. To take it and help it on its way then the answer is yes.

If you found this traveler would recording its number, leaving it in the cache where you found it, then logging it as a find feel like a "real" find to you?

I can see some people saying yes to that, I wouldn't log it though.

Would you feel denied if you could not take the traveler to place in another cache or otherwise be consistent with the traveler owner's instructions?

Nope

There should be no competition if the intended person is clearly stated.

22k · September 22, 2003

I think we are confusing what we want to happen with reality. If you found a wallet and left it on a park bench for the owner to pick up, and someone came along and took it, would you be shocked? Probably not. Would you be incensed? Probably, if you thought only scum would pick up a wallet.

The fact is a cache location is a public place whether it is legally one or not. To think that we can control what people do just because we want them to is foolish. If you don't want just anybody to take something, don't put it where just anybody can get it.

September 22, 2003

I put out a travel bug a month ago, with instructions that I'm trying to get it to a cache somewhere close to Amsterdam by next July, when I will be visiting there. Besides the issues raised here, I just realized that all of the cache pages over there are in Dutch !!

September 22, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:

If you must leave something for another geocacher, put it in a Ziploc and hide it someplace else, and e-mail the coordinates to the person.

Should they no, could they yes.....BUT, I don't understand how someone could put something in a cache that they didn't fully expect would be found by muggles or in some other way come up MIA.

As quoted above, the best thing would have been to just use a simple off set cache that only the intended receiver of the object and sender know the coordinates of.

The people who left the object specifically for someone else in a cache for all to find were being naive, and you were too zealous. Send them the object and move on with you caching, it’s just a game.

When in trouble, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!

September 22, 2003

TeamX40 posted "I think we are confusing what we want to happen with reality. If you found a wallet and left it on a park bench for the owner to pick up, and someone came along and took it, would you be shocked? Probably not. Would you be incensed? Probably, if you thought only scum would pick up a wallet".

I am never shocked when people do the wrong thing, I expect it, and have even been quilty of it when I was younger. If I was given too much money back from some clerk I'd smile and walk away, today I inform them of their mistake and correct it. It all has to do with the morals you develope as you mature. As for leaving a wallet on a park bench? are you insane? Just bring it home and mail it too the owner. As for cache mail, we all know about this game so your example doesn't really apply, if a cacher finds a traveler with written instructions on it there is no excuse to take it for himself other then that person is either:

1. stupid

2. A thief

3. Stupid

Just a thought, be honest and truthful it usually pays off in the end. What comes around goes around.

22k · September 22, 2003

No, you missed the exact point. You wouldn't leave a wallet on a park bench because it would get taken whether by a thief or a Samaritan. To leave something in a cache and expect different results is a foolish.

You leave something that anybody can find and you want what to happen? No one will do the wrong thing? Let me know how you can control that and we can continue this conversation.

The definition of insanity is to do the same over and over again, expecting different results.

[This message was edited by TeamX40 on September 22, 2003 at 05:48 PM.]

September 22, 2003

Read my post 6 up from this one. I really do not expect this to make it to FL. it is more of an experiment to see how far it makes it. Read the entire thread, I stated my thoughts on weather it would make it or not. There is a difference between if a thief or a samaritan found it, the thief would keep it.

I'm still open to take a geobet on how far people think it will make it. By the way my geobet is if I win I get to select a cache in your area you have to do, if I win you select one I have to do.

4.7k · September 22, 2003

sure. it depends on the good will of others, though. if you really want to log it, you can take down the tracking number and log it in and out.

you may be ABLE to take it, but it's tacky to intentionally go against the wishes of the owner.

it's a lovely way to send messages. but you pays yer money, ya takes yer chances.

-====)) -))))))))))))

presta schrader

September 22, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Team Sagefox:
Should a geocoin or travel bug (traveler) be placed in a cache .....with a note that it be saved for someone specific ...

I have had people leave special bugs for me in caches. It was obvious to us that something could happen. The answer is to do what we did. You arrange to leave the bug at the cache site, but no where near the cache. Specific instructions of an exact hiding place were emailed to me, and when we got the cache, we also got the bug. Once we had the bug in hand, the person who left the bug, logged it in, and we logged it out.

The chances for error here are caused by the assumption that anyone who finds the cache will leave a specific trinket for a specific person.

Simply remove that factor.

Cachin's a bit sweeter when you've got an Isha!

September 22, 2003

cach-o-matic, again that is a great approach if you live in the same state.What if you live 1200 miles apart?

September 22, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Xitron:
cach-o-matic, again that is a great approach if you live in the same state.What if you live 1200 miles apart?

Huh? Leave it in a cache 1200 miles away with a note saying that only a particular individual should pick it up?? Well it would prob. sit there untill it came up MIA

When in trouble, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!

September 22, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Trogdor!:
Originally posted by Xitron:
cach-o-matic, again that is a great approach if you live in the same state.What if you live 1200 miles apart?

Huh? Leave it in a cache 1200 miles away with a note saying that only a particular individual should pick it up?? Well it would prob. sit there untill it came up MIA

What didn't you get about the note saying it needs to go to FL. to a certain cache and to be picked up by a certain person? Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to a wall. The instructions are to move it South to a certain cache to be picked up by a certain person. What is so confusing about that Trogdor?

9.4k · September 22, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by carleenp:
It is done alot with travel bugs. For example, people use the Tb as a way to send things to each other. Here is an example where one is being sent to me.

It just so happens that I had asked Webfoot about picking up your dirty golfball just before we went to California. He said he didn't have time to meet (meeting would have been fun since he was my wife's 7th grade teacher, but that's another story). As luck would have it, we were ahead of schedule and stopped many times on the way there to go geocaching. We found 18 out of 20 on the drive, including one of Webfoot's caches. It just so happens that Webfoot had visited his cache the day before we got there to drop off Carleen's Dirty Golfball and we were able to pick it up! We've brought it home with us and will place it this week sometime here in Albuquerque. It's already halfway to its destination! Maybe we'll add a broken Mctoy to it...

Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness

4.2k · September 22, 2003

(Intentionally staying out of this thread as my opionon on this is well known. General or specific).

September 22, 2003

quote:
September 22 by Team Sagefox (543 found)

I have posted a new topic on the forums to discuss the very heart of the coin incident in a safe environment where people can leave the flame throwers in their holsters.

If you are interested please go to: General: Should a traveler be left in a cache for someone specific...

I will delete this entry in the near future.

GCE06C

I remember reading an entire thread about this specific incident. I looked through the forums, but I can't remember the title. The general consensus was you should've left other people's property alone.

I'm not flaming, I'm going to try and get a very serious point across here. Geocaching relies a lot on honesty and integrity. While you had no intention of it, I'm sure, what you did was stealing. I'm glad you had the decency to make it right.

It doesn't matter that the item was placed in a public cache, and it was something you wanted. The fact is, it was left for someone specifically. It doesn't matter if you, I, or anyone else (other than TPTB) agree or disagree with it, the fact is, it certainly didn't belong to you, and you took it.

When items are placed in a cache, they are generally offered up to the next finder. This was a special case, as the item was left (without any doubt) for someone specifically. You were not that person. That makes it stealing. I want a geocoin, so I'm going to buy one (or four or five). I hope I get lucky enough to find one some day so I can log a find, but I'm not willing to take anybody's property to do so.

I noticed all of the logs were deleted pertaining to this incident (other than the "Oh boy! It's back!"). Your choice was simply bad form and not very "cacher-like". This isn't judgement on you... we all make a bad decision or two in our lifetime.

Lemme know what geographical area you're in, and I'll get a Texas Geocoin and attach a TB to it and send it your way as its mission. If/When it gets to you, you're free to keep it.

-=Jerry A. Goodson=- W5BFF aka hydrashok407 KoolAid Drinker

"Real peace is not just the absence of conflict, it's the presence of justice" - http://www.hydrashok.com

September 23, 2003

quote:
leaving anything in a cache with the intent of transferring it to another person is not a good idea.
_

I have a item that I am saving to be placed at my 100th find. the item is intended to be retreved by a certain person (Orange). The item is not so special that the world would end if someone else were to take it, in fact I dont thing anyone else would want it, however to Orange the item would bring a smile and a memory. Both Orange and I have this "CACHE DEAL" Im not going to "Tip my Cards" till the time is right but when its done I will tell you about it.

Scoobydooers

1.6k · September 23, 2003

I would ask that a traveller that is destined for a specific person have this on their label and not on the website only. I like TB's and take them. Usually they are a surprise when found and I don't know about their mission in advance. Once I get home, then I find that the TB that wanted to go East, ended up further West. Usually not a problem, but I would feel bad if the TB was for some user in the next town and I moved it into a cache they had already found or to a cache that was further away from them.

_____________

"Half this game is ninety percent mental." Danny Ozark

1k · September 23, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Team Sagefox:
Clarification: This question is NOT about the routing of traveler as intended by the traveler owner or with any actions that assist the traveler toward its goal as stated by the traveler owner.

Seems like most folks still haven't attempted to answer YOUR questions. If someone NOT THE OWNER tries to assign a different goal such as "Leave this TB alone so Geocacher X can pick it up", I consider it ATTEMPTED HIJACKING. Only the OWNER has the right to assign the goal/mission, and the OWNER is the person who activated the travel bug, not some intermediate finder. I would ignore any instructions, requests, etc. from NON-OWNERS, and I would take the TB if I could help it achieve the goal given by the OWNER.

worldtraveler

2.1k · September 23, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by hydrashok407:
While you had no intention of it, I'm sure, what you did was stealing. It doesn't matter if you, I, or anyone else (other than TPTB) agree or disagree with it, the fact is, it certainly didn't belong to you, and you took it.

This response is off-task. The question is NOT: Should someone take something that has a note intending that item for someone else? The question IS: Should a geocoin or travel bug (traveler) be placed in a cache by someone other than the traveler's owner with a note that it be saved for someone specific who is not, in someway identified in the traveler's instructions?

2.1k · September 23, 2003

Maybe this subject is not all that interesting so perhaps I can spice it up a bit.

I am not including NON-TRAVELER gifts in this discussion. Special, non-traveler gifts from one cacher to another is an entirely different matter. I can't imagine ever taking such an item that was clearly labeled for someone else no matter how shiny or precious. But lets not talk about them here.

With travelers however, I believe that no one other than the traveler owner has the right to leave them in a cache with a note that it is to be saved for someone else, or otherwise redirect them unless it is to further or complete the goal posted by the traveler's owner. These objects are meant to be circulated. I believe it is not fair to expect that a third party does not have the right to take a traveler it if they find it first.

It can't be theft if the one who "grabs" it is in compliance with the goals of the traveler owner. Any intermediate finder can leave a save note with a traveler if they wish but I believe it is up to the next finder, whoever that may be, to decide whether or not to take a traveler and further its mission.

The concept that an intermediate finder can redirect someone else's traveler by placing it in a cache with a note that it should be saved for someone is so foreign to me that I am still barely able to understand it, severely scorched skin and all. If the traveler is so important that someone would be angry if they didn't get it they should be making other arrangements for the transfer.

And most important, I can't imagine I would ever think that if someone beat me to something in a cache with a note attached that it be saved for me that I would be entitled, in any sense, to complain about it, traveler or other gift. I have made several exchanges with other cachers and was always clear that I needed to get to the cache first.

Clearly this does not appear to be the consensus of the responders to these two topics and consensus has to be considered if we desire to keep our micro society civil. But I do not agree with this concept and would like to see more opinions posted.

1k · September 23, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Team Sagefox:
...The question IS: Should a geocoin or travel bug (traveler) be placed in a cache by someone other than the traveler's owner with a note that it be saved for someone specific who is not, in someway identified in the traveler's instructions?

My first answer was specific to travel bugs; when I posted it, I had not yet read the related thread about the geocoin. I've only found one geocoin (a Canadian), so I will have to better educate myself about them before offering an opinion specific to geocoins.

worldtraveler

2.1k · September 23, 2003

Clarification #2: I'm refering to trackable geocoins intended to be travelers. I suspect that not all geocoins are meant to be travelers. Sorry for the confusion.

September 23, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Team Sagefox:
With travelers however, I believe that no one other than the traveler owner has the right to leave them in a cache with a note that it is to be saved for someone else, or otherwise redirect them unless it is to further or complete the goal posted by the traveler's owner.

I see where you are coming from Team Sagefox, and I am in agreement with you.

I have just reviewed the rules of Travel Bugs, and it appears clear that the original owner retains ownership of the Traveler after it is released. As discussed on other threads regarding “piracy”, respect for the property of others is a concept crucial to Geocaching. I agree, the Traveler should only be taken or handled in accordance with the consent specified by its owner. Interfering with it in any other way, is wrong.

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.

9.4k · September 23, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Team Sagefox:
The question IS: Should a geocoin or travel bug (traveler) be placed in a cache by someone other than the traveler's owner with a note that it be saved for someone specific who is not, in someway identified in the traveler's instructions?

Sure, it can be placed there in this manner. However, like all travel bugs, it is very likely that it will be picked up and moved in the wrong direction. As long as the placer doesn't mind this possibility I see nothing wrong with their request. They just need to realize it is a REQUEST for everyone but the person mentioned to leave it alone.

Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness

September 23, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Xitron:
cach-o-matic, again that is a great approach if you live in the same state. What if you live 1200 miles apart?

quote:
Originally posted by Xitron: What didn't you get about the note saying it needs to go to FL. to a certain cache and to be picked up by a certain person?

Actually, I get the whole concept of TB having specific goals. I would say that probably most of them do have some specific goal. Just like your great experiment of sending something from NH to FL. Nothing to see here, move along.

quote:
Originally posted by Xitron: The instructions are to move it South to a certain cache to be picked up by a certain person. What is so confusing about that Trogdor?

.

The way you wrote the post I was responding to, indicated that you were leaving it 1200 miles away from the intended receiver waiting for them to pick it up. I guess I was confused by your redundancy in stating the obvious.

quote:
Originally posted by Xitron: Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to a wall.

I guess it was like your old signature: Your lips are flapping but none could hear you! Maybe if you flapped them harder and in a more aggressive manor you would be understood?

Now, back to the topic:

What would happen if the object had traveled across the country, reached its final destination goal, and then someone other than the intended receiver grabbed it? Then the person grabbing the object has specifically kept the it from meeting it's goal. The key is the object had a goal.

I think that there is confusion out there about the difference between a signature item style geocoin which isn’t tracked, and geocoin that is tracked. A signature style geocoin that isn’t tracked is like the “business card” signature item people commonly leave. A geocoin which can be tracked is more like a Where’s George Dollar than a TB. If a track-able geocoin has a set goal, then it becomes more of a TB than a geocoin.

I’m currently having geocoins made which can be tracked. Although I plan to use them as a signature item and they can be tracked, I fully expect that a large % of them will be held. I seem to remember Moun10bike indicating that it is not uncommon for his coins to be “lost” to collectors. For some reason, removing a geocoin (tracked or not) from a cache and keeping it, seems to be a fairly common practice.

quote:
Originally posted by seneca:

I have just reviewed the rules of Travel Bugs, and it appears clear that the original owner retains ownership of the Traveler after it is released. As discussed on other threads regarding “piracy”, respect for the property of others is a concept crucial to Geocaching. I agree, the Traveler should only be taken or handled in accordance with the consent specified by its owner. Interfering with it in any other way, is wrong.

I don't disagree with you but, could you please post a link to where it says this?

When in trouble, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!

September 23, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Trogdor!:

quote:
Originally posted by seneca:

I have just reviewed the rules of Travel Bugs, and it appears clear that the original owner retains ownership of the Traveler after it is released. As discussed on other threads regarding “piracy”, respect for the property of others is a concept crucial to Geocaching. I agree, the Traveler should only be taken or handled in accordance with the consent specified by its owner. Interfering with it in any other way, is wrong.

I don't disagree with you but, could you please post a link to where it says this?

When in trouble, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!

The link is here.. You will not that there are two references on this page to "owner", one of which is after the TB is released, and referring back to the person who originally released it. I used the words "appears clear" in the above quote, when I probably should have just said "appears", because it is not really as clear as maybe it should be.

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.

September 23, 2003

quote:
Is a traveler fair game once it has been placed in a cache that is not an intermediate or final destination as designated by the traveler owner?

Usually. However, there can be "special" circumstances that might prevent it from being fair game.

quote:
If you found this traveler would recording its number, leaving it in the cache where you found it, then logging it as a find feel like a "real" find to you?

That answer could vary from each individual cacher. I would consider it similar to logging a virtual caches... which I don't particularly care too much for. I like the hunt, but I also like the swap. I'd probably not log the find at all, but that's just me.

quote:
Would you feel denied if you could not take the traveler to place in another cache or otherwise be consistent with the traveler owner's instructions?

Nah. If I can trade for something, I do. If not, oh well... there's always other caches.

quote:
Does the recipient have the obligation to beat the competition to the cache?

I don't see geocaching as competition at all. I like it when I'm the FTF (only happened once so far), but I don't HAVE to be the FTF... or the one that nabs a traveller (coin OR bug). My first regular cache had a bug in it, and I opted to leave it because I knew very little about them. I tend to try and follow directions, and if I can help a bug, I'll take it. If not, I leave it, and I have no feeling a depravity at all.

quote:
Note: We might need to assume that the traveler was placed after the finder's cache page print out or data download and without attached instructions.

If this is the case, then it's a surprise. It happened to me just two days ago. I missed the cacher by no more than a day, and I found the bug before he even logged it. The bug I found before that hadn't even been logged in the cache I found, and it had been there for a while. I read the instructions and decided I could help it, so I did. This bug I found recently had no instructions, so I can just move it around and around. If it was left there for another finder, I'd have left it there.

-=Jerry A. Goodson=- W5BFF aka hydrashok407 KoolAid Drinker

"Real peace is not just the absence of conflict, it's the presence of justice" - http://www.hydrashok.com

Should a traveler be left in a cache for someone specific?

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