Personal Safety/Security

June 7, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by StarshipTrooper:

quote:
Originally posted by seneca:
...I would guess (only on my rough analysis of anecdotal evidence ) that the risk of getting lost or injured by accident in wooded parks and wilderness areas it greater by a factor of many times over that of meeting misfortune by animal or human attack - but one would never think so by observing how people seem to generally view those risks.

Well, yes - and no. For the overall population, I believe your assumption is correct. But for a given individual, it may very well not be. Take me, for instance...I am very unlikely to get lost (with or without gps).

But this is exactly what I am talking about - individuals taking effective steps to deal with risk. It would make no sense to analyze risk unless you were going to do something about it. Its not an accident that you became proficient at wilderness navigation. This is called managing personal risk. You cannot do this effectively unless you have properly assessed the prevalent risks and , (unless you want to be your personal guinea pig) you can only do that by first looking at what risks face the population in general.

quote:
Originally posted by StarshipTrooper:
And BTW, statistically speaking, an individual is not likely to be attacked on any given day. But attacks do happen, and when they happen to you - the statistics are meaningless. Statistics are no substitute for prepairedness.

This is like those who say:

“Whaddya mean buying lottery tickets is a bad risk? Just try telling that to someone who won! Remember, you can’t win if you don’t play.”

(By the way, that type of thinking does make sense to millions of people - it is how lottery corporations suck billions from the gullible).

I do not live by the maxim “be prepared for all eventualities”. Its too risky. Overstating risk can cause the following:

Using unnecessary resources on concerns that might have been better applied to discovering and dealing with other real risks.
Unnecessarily avoiding enjoyable or useful activities to your personal detriment
Increasing your chances of dying of heart disease (from the additional stress!).

Lets talk about bears:

There is lots of discussion on these forums (including this thread) about protecting yourself from attack by a bear. In British Columbia (where I am from) , we have a population of 4 million people. Our main industry is logging. Wilderness hiking is a way of life, and an important part of our tourist industry. We have approximately 1 bear for every 32 people. We are home to 25% of all of North America’s grizzly bear population. Our bears often live in close proximity to people, including many on the immediate outskirts of built-up urban areas (they show up in people’s back yards all the time). On average, there is less than one person per year killed by a bear in British Columbia (11 people killed over a 16 year period) . On the other hand, 56 people are drowned annually in British Columbia by “accidently falling into water” (this does not include boat related drownings) . Today, on the way to a cache (which I did not find ) I was hiking along the edge of a fast running creek (a very normal experience of which I was not that concerned) but if I had lost my footing and fell I would not be here to tell you about it. If I was not too concerned about walking along that creek, I am certainly not going to be at all concerned about getting attacked by a bear. I would rather save the money on the bear spray and spend it on lottery tickets.

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.

2.5k · June 7, 2003

Maybe those 56 were chased into the creek by a bear.

June 7, 2003

I agree that the chances of being attacked by a bear are fairly remote, but that's no reason to not take precautions.

Interesting statistics on the bears in B.C.

http://www.mala.bc.ca/www/discover/rmot/project.htm

quote:
In the sixteen-year period from 1978 to 1994, eleven people were killed and almost 100 people injured by bears in B.C. While the risk of being killed or injured is very low, public safety is a critical issue in B.C. (Anon., 1996). These statistics are current to the end of 1994. However, in 1995 and in 1996 to date, the incidence of bear attacks on humans in B.C. has taken a marked increase.

Many people outdoors carry items "just in case":

Water - in case they get thirsty
food - in case they need to eat
Matches - in case they need a fire
First aid kit - in case they need to administer ermegency medical attention
Rope - a zillion handy uses
Knife - in case they need to cut something
cell phone - to call for help
Radio - to call for help
A GPS - in case they get lost
A _________ (you fill in the blanks) in case you get attacked by _________ ...

-------

--------------

Changing some folks mind, is like trying to herd cats.

1.4k · June 7, 2003

Let's talk a bit more about bears:

quote:
Seneca wrote:
There is lots of discussion on these forums (including this thread) about protecting yourself from attack by a bear. In British Columbia (where I am from) , we have a population of 4 million people. Our main industry is logging. Wilderness hiking is a way of life, and an important part of our tourist industry. We have approximately 1 bear for every 32 people. We are home to 25% of all of North America’s grizzly bear population. Our bears often live in close proximity to people, including many on the immediate outskirts of built-up urban areas (they show up in people’s back yards all the time). On average, there is less than one person per year killed by a bear in British Columbia (11 people killed over a 16 year period) . I am certainly not going to be at all concerned about getting attacked by a bear. I would rather save the money on the bear spray and spend it on lottery tickets.

Firstly, just a minor correction to your statistics -- there are approximately 13,000 grizzly bears in British Columbia which works out to about 1 bear for every 320 people -- not trying to nitpick here but I think you'll agree that this a bit more comforting than 1 for 32. We do indeed have 25% of the North American population of grizzlies. If you include the Black Bear population (about 15% of the North American population) in your statistics then the numbers are closer to 1 bear for every 24 people in British Columbia.

The majority of Grizzlies do not typically live in close proximity to populated areas. The largest population of grizzlies is in the very remote wilderness of the west coast of the BC mainland from approximately the top of Vancouver Island to the Alaska border, the Prince George area, and a small area in the southeastern region of the province. Statistically, people have settled in only 8% of the original habitat of the grizzly. There are no grizzly bears on Vancouver Island or the Queen Charlotte Islands. There is moderate grizzly population in most other regions of BC with exception of the interior region.

The bigger problem in British Columbia is with Black bears -- the BC Wildlife Branch estimates that there are between 120,000 and 160,000 black bears in the province -- a historic high (about 30% of all Black Bears in Canada). You are much more likely to have an encounter with a Black Bear in British Columbia than with a Grizzly (and relatively that's a very good thing). Black bear population is highest on Vancouver Island, the Queen Charlotte Islands and the south eastern region of BC. Black bears live in virtually every part of the province of British Columbia. Only about 5% of the province has been permanently lost as Black Bear habitat (which include core populated areas as well as major highways and large hydro reservoirs). Black Bears are indeed more likely to be seen in populated areas than Grizzlies.

British Columbia has experienced an escalation of black bear/human conflicts, particularly over the past ten years and nearly doubled between 1992 and 1999. During that period BC Conservation Officers recorded and average of 8,811 complaints annually (complaints do not necessarily mean that there was an attack of any kind -- it includes attacks and sightings that were reported).

Most Black Bears are likely to turn and run away from a human rather than attack. Although your statistics sound about right (11 people killed in 16 years) incidents are increasing (the number of attacks resulting in serious injury are significantly higher than the death tolls). Having said this however, statistics indicate that the number of Grizzly Bear attacks is only slightly less than Black Bears. In recent years however, Black Bears have become increasingly more agressive and there are a few documented cases of Black Bear attacks on humans being much more predatory.

We had a local cacher who recently encountered a Black Bear at this cache in North Vancouver. Fortunately, the cacher was able to retreat to his vehicle without harm.

Personally, I have experienced eight encounters with bears in the wilderness in my lifetime (excluding several sightings from vehicles). Each of those was with Black Bears. The closest that I physically came to a bear in the wild was about 20 feet (and that was WAY closer than I would have liked -- where are those cubs?!?). In each case, all it took was loud shouting and waving arms to get the bear to turn away. I have never had to use pepper spray, although I have a number of friends who have. I also have a few friends who have killed bears that were showing signs of aggression. My last encounter was in the Stein Valley three years ago where my son and I had a Black Bear stalk us for almost an entire day. That was extremely uncomfortable, and I was very relieved when we finally reached our vehicle.

I have never had an encounter with a Grizzly Bear and I hope that I never do -- Grizzlies are far more aggresive than Black Bears. I have seen one Grizzly at a distance from a vehicle. I tend to shy away from known Grizzly habitats.

As I venture out into wilderness areas I am much more conscious of bears than I ever have been. They are fascinating animals and must be treated with a great amount of respect -- they are very powerful and surprisingly fast. As we encroach upon their habitats, we must realize that we are the intruders and as such must be ready at any time for a possible altercation. I carry pepper spray with me and have recently been looking into purchasing bear bangers (an explosive charged projectile that is used to scare bears without harming them).

No offence, but to say that you would rather spend your money on lottery tickets than on bear spray doesn't make sense. Yes, statistically the chances of attack are very low, but consider how many people in that 4 million that you mention, never venture into the wilderness where the majority of bear encounters take place. Your statistics don't look so impressive with this in mind.

I doubt very much that showing a bear your winning lottery ticket is going to be much of a deterent if he's looking at you with lunch in mind.

*****

1.4k · June 8, 2003

quote:
Seneca wrote:
Our main industry is logging.

Actually, I believe it's marijuana cultivation by all latest accounts.

"Hey man, didja see that cute fuzzy bear with the lottery ticket?"

Nothin's better than BC Bud dude.

*****

[This message was edited by Jomarac5 on June 08, 2003 at 01:36 AM.]

June 8, 2003

quote:
Firstly, just a minor correction to your statistics -- there are approximately 13,000 grizzly bears in British Columbia which works out to about 1 bear for every _320_ people -- not trying to nitpick here but I think you'll agree that this a bit more comforting than 1 for 32....
... If you include the Black Bear population (about 15% of the North American population) in your statistics then the numbers are closer to 1 bear for every 24 people in British Columbia.

*****

I said "We have approximately 1 bear for every 32 people." I was including 13,000 grizzly bears and 112,000 black bears. My source for the black bear figure is a few years old and if your information indicates we have more black bears than this, bringing the ratio up to 1 bear for every 24 persons then I will accept that - as that number more strongly supports the point I was trying to make.

The point I was trying to make is that we have bears (lots of them) and people (lots of them) and notwithstanding that lots of our people are in close proximity to lots of our bears, we have very very few deaths (or injuries for that matter) from bears, when compared to the myriad of other risks (like drowning) that we take in stride without much concern.

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.

[This message was edited by seneca on June 08, 2003 at 01:57 AM.]

[This message was edited by seneca on June 08, 2003 at 02:01 AM.]

[This message was edited by seneca on June 08, 2003 at 02:12 AM.]

June 8, 2003

We did have two female joggers attacked by wild dogs her in the Chicagoland area recently. (One woman was killed). I logged a few caches in the same area -- it really makes you stop and think.

I've encountered a few dogs in the woods while caching. They've always shown no interest and simply moved on. But I after the above incident I'm a little more aware of my surroundings when caching in the local parks.

Jolly R. Blackburn

http://kenzerco.com

June 8, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by seneca:
I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.

That's a great quote. Are you quoting someone else or is it your own bit of wisdom?

Reminds me of Jimmy Hoffa's "If everyone is telling me I'm wrong I must be doing something right." then there's "If I find everyone is agreeing with me I start to worry I'm doing something wrong."

Jolly R. Blackburn

http://kenzerco.com

June 8, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jolly B Good:

quote:
Originally posted by seneca:
I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.

That's a great quote. Are you quoting someone else or is it your own bit of wisdom?

Dudley Field Malone - one of the defence attorneys in the "Scopes Monkey Trial" Apparently he was a great legal orator - would put on quite a show at trials. (I wish I was as wise!)

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.

June 8, 2003

Isn't is kinda sad we are in a sport where we are afraid to partake in. I am pro gun and am a suburban redneck, look at my photo below... Lets go geocaching!!! Get the GPS, Pepper Spray, hound dogs and the rifle!!

Oh the irony.

I hunt because the evil koala in my closet makes me bring him trinkets that shine.

June 8, 2003

Isn't is kinda sad we are in a sport where we are afraid to partake in. I am pro gun and am a suburban redneck, look at my photo below... Lets go geocaching!!! Get the GPS, Pepper Spray, hound dogs and the rifle!!

Oh the irony.

[This message was edited by im4kcmo on June 08, 2003 at 04:15 AM.]

1.4k · June 8, 2003

quote:
Seneca wrote:
The point I was trying to make is that we have bears (lots of them) and people (lots of them) and notwithstanding that lots of our people are in close proximity to lots of our bears, we have very very few deaths (or injuries for that matter) from bears, when compared to the myriad of other risks (like drowning) that we take in stride without much concern.

Statistically trivial or not, when I'm out looking for caches that are in the wilderness I'll take my pepper spray and bear bangers, and when you are out in the wilderness you can take your lottery ticket.

Also, I said "Firstly, just a minor correction to your statistics". I wasn't denying that there are lots of bears in BC.

I'd be interested to know how many of those people that drowned weren't wearing lifejackets. Take those away and I'll bet your 56 deaths per year figure is a lot closer to the bear statistics.

Not wearing a lifejacket when around water or not preparing for bears when in the wilderness makes you a good candidate for the Darwin Award.

The point I'm making is that when you are in the backyard of dangerous animals, it is foolhardy to not take precautions.

What's really your point? Actually, don't answer that because it appears to me that you are just looking to argue and that's not what I care to do. Have a nice day.

*****

[This message was edited by Jomarac5 on June 08, 2003 at 04:23 AM.]

1.6k · June 8, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jomarac5:
Not wearing a lifejacket when around water or not preparing for bears when in the wilderness makes you a good candidate for the http://www.darwinawards.com/.

Wow, now that's an ironic comeback. The Darwin award going to the guy who uses quotes from the defence of the Scopes Monkey Trial.

God loves his children.

canadazuuk

June 8, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by seneca:

The point I was trying to make is that we have bears (lots of them) and people (lots of them) and notwithstanding that lots of our people are in close proximity to lots of our bears, we have very very few deaths (or injuries for that matter) from bears, when compared to the myriad of other risks (like drowning) that we take in stride without much concern.

Not to quibble here, but you can't use the entire human population as your divisor here, either for the 1 in 24 number or the odds of having an encounter.

We participate in an activity that dramatically increases our odds of certain things occuring -- for me being a flatlander outside Chicago, that mostly means Poison Ivy and biting insects -- anecdotal tanget; I've lived here my entire life and *never* seen a tick in this area, till I started geocaching and I've not lived in a bubble either, but never 'bushwhacked' till I started doing this -- I've now seen many ticks here.

I your case and relative to this conversation, you'd need to evaluate the population of bears against the population of active outdoors enthusiasts and others who routinely are in the woods (loggers for example). I have *no* numbers in that regard, but if you do, don't be surprised if the encounter ration moves to "how many bears per person, rather than how many persons per bear"

Just an observation.

June 8, 2003

On the ratio of bears to people.

I am not really sure or care which is correct. I think the big one to worry about is when you are out there and it is 1 to 1 and you are the one. That stat seems to become the most important one and the most accurate.

June 8, 2003

My post on bear spray working

Seems the stuff works afterall.

This happened about 15 miles from my house.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

June 8, 2003

I would still participate in this sport no matter what the risk is. Heck, there is probably a higher risk of me slipping and falling in the shower every morning! Ahhh...one more reason to sleep until noon.

June 8, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by seneca:

quote:
Originally posted by StarshipTrooper:
Originally posted by seneca:
Originally posted by StarshipTrooper:
And BTW, statistically speaking, an individual is not likely to be attacked on any given day. But attacks do happen, and when they happen to you - the statistics are meaningless. Statistics are no substitute for prepairedness.

This is like those who say:

“Whaddya mean buying lottery tickets is a bad risk? Just try telling that to someone who won! Remember, you can’t win if you don’t play.”

Apples to oranges, my friend. One is a danger, the other is a dream - sorry, but it's a bad analogy.

quote:
I do not live by the maxim “be prepared for all eventualities”...

Neither do I. That's why I would carry a handgun, but not neccessarily a rifle, and definitely not a Howitzer. It's really a simple little thing, when weighed against it's utility, but you - like most hoplophobes - make a huge deal about it. To me, it's no more bother than carrying a flashlight, pocket knife, or lip balm.

June 8, 2003

When OC spray was first issued (its the same stuff as bear spray only 5%-10%, where bear spray is 15% an higher.), it was thought to be a "Silver Bullet", taking out deranged and psychotic badguys. Its been found that it is not the "Siler Bullet" that it was originally touted to be and in some cases it dosen't work at all. Yes some people are immuned to its affects. Just remember the spray won't stop a bear dead in its tracks. Be prepared to run for safety and rememer it might only slow the bear down on not work at all.

When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading.

Henny Youngman (1906 - 1998)

June 8, 2003

This whole thread has been enlightening. I have been in the field surveying daily for the past thirty years and have only twice been confronted by a firearm, both shotguns (12GA). To be fair, one was an 80 year old lady who felt threatened by me and the other was responding to the fact I was doing a court order condemnation. I don't object to firearms, I am a life member of the NRA, but I don't consider them a viable answer either. (It's a rights thing)

Experience - A list of non fatal mistakes.

June 8, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jomarac5:
I'd be interested to know how many of those people that drowned weren't wearing lifejackets.

None, I presume, as I did not include boat related drownings in the statistic quoted. I did however inadvertently misstate the statistics by saying that 56 drownings per year were were only from "accidentally falling into water". The figure actually did include all drownings not related to water transport. (if you are interested the source is here)

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.

1.4k · June 8, 2003

quote:
Seneca wrote:
None, I presume, as I did not include boat related drownings in the statistic quoted.

Perhaps those that drowned may not have had they had a lottery ticket.

Odd how you choose to ignore everything but the most insignificant detail of the discussion. Seems that I was right about you just wanting to argue.

Your signature would be more honest if it read: "I have never in my life learned anything from any man that I didn't listen to".

*****

June 8, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jomarac5:

quote:
Seneca wrote:
None, I presume, as I did not include boat related drownings in the statistic quoted.

Perhaps those that drowned may not have had they had a lottery ticket.

Odd how you choose to ignore everything but the most insignificant detail of the discussion. Seems that I was right about you just wanting to argue.

Your signature would be more honest if it read: "I have never in my life learned anything from any man that I didn't listen to".

*****

Jomarac5, now you made me really really mad! Darn darn darn. You just really pushed my big button! You don’t know me and you are a fool to think you do. Who are you to tell me what to think and not to think (and what my favorite signature line should be). If you don’t like my stats well tough beany weanies - go and get your own! Please stick to the topic. Just answer the question. I know your type - I know what you are trying to do. Grow up! Don’t be soooo silly! You have just brought silly to such an incredibly new low!! (Don’t bother answering this, because right now I have my hand’s over my ears and I am shaking my head saying “I don’t hear you... I don’t hear you”). I am also standing up stamping my feet on the floor having a real old fashioned paddy. Boy, you have really really done it now Jomarac5 - you are in big trouble with me. I think you had better go to this URL and take a good hard look at it - you might learn something.

(By the way, thanks for teaching me over the last week some really effective debating techniques - if nothing else they sure are fun!)

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.

1.4k · June 8, 2003

*****

1.5k · June 8, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by canadazuuk:

quote:
Originally posted by seneca:
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t think anybody has answered the question I posed at the beginning of this thread affirmatively.

The question again:

_Has anyone actually ever had an encounter while Geocaching where they were accosted, mugged, or assaulted (or heard of such an incident)? _

So close calls and near misses don't count.

What is the goal of the question? What motivates the seeking of an outcome?

canadazuuk

Take look at this log entry from Friday night.

After consulting a good friend of mine, I'm contacting the agency who responded and pushing for charges.

Brian

Team A.I.

June 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Brian - Team A.I.:
Take look at this log entry from Friday night.

Honestly, which do you think came first, the chicken or the egging?

Okay, bad pun. However, it could have been that this guy's action are what caused the egging and now he's using it as an excuse.

Charges are in order, I think. Somebody, or some thing, has got to calm this guy down before he starts carrying a gun!

1.6k · June 9, 2003

THE DAILY MOTIVATOR

Friday, May 23, 2003

Beyond disagreement

+++++++++++++++++++++

When you disagree with someone, the way out of that disagreement is not to strengthen it by holding firmly to your own side. The most valuable and productive way out is to resolve the situation by finding common ground.

That does not mean giving in. It does not mean forcing the other person to give in to you. Instead, it means being as open, honest and direct as possible. It means acting with a genuine desire to arrive at the best solution for everyone involved.

To every extent possible, forget about the disagreement itself and look for what the situation is trying to tell you. Imagine yourself in the place of the other person, and look at things from that perspective.

Nothing of value is produced by arguing. Look instead for ways to cooperate, to understand and to make yourself more clearly understood.

When you're concerned only with what works for you, and only with what affects you, then you're never going to receive any cooperation. Yet when you concern yourself with what's best for all involved, that's when you start to get somewhere.

Ralph Marston

1.7k · June 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by canadazuuk:
THE DAILY MOTIVATOR

Friday, May 23, 2003

Beyond disagreement (the rest snipped)

Quite frankly, I believe Brian acted in a reasonable manner. We have our fair share of nuts in this city, wielding guns, and with the heat that always seems to set tempers up, this is just a bad situation waiting to happen. ********

That moss-covered bucket I hailed as a treasure,

For often at noon, when I returned from the field,

I found it the source of an exquisite pleasure.

Samuel Woodworth The Old Oaken Bucket

[This message was edited by Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking on June 09, 2003 at 10:13 PM.]

1.6k · June 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking:

Quite frankly, I believe Brian acted in a reasonable manner.

Sorry, I wasn't referring that towards his post at all.

canadazuuk

1.4k · June 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Brian - Team A.I.:
Take look at log entry from Friday night.

After consulting a good friend of mine, I'm contacting the agency who responded and pushing for charges.

Brian

Team A.I.

Hmmmm.... I am in no position to judge this. And I must say you handled the situation just fine. Good luck in your quest for further action.

But... I wonder if his attitude is the real problem. Perhaps his house was egged because he is like that to anyone in the area.

BTW, you might check if driving a golf cart on the street is legal there. Just another bullet for your magazine.

Mike. Desert_Warrior (aka KD9KC).

El Paso, Texas.

Citizens of this land may own guns. Not to threaten their neighbors, but to ensure themselves of liberty and freedom.

They are not assault weapons anymore... they are HOMELAND DEFENSE WEAPONS!

June 9, 2003

I agree with the Warrior. I can see why his house was egged. If that happened now, I can only imagine what pranks are played on Halloween.

I would have pushed the issue and at the very least requested that he be summonsed in to court for a Magistrate's hearing. Maybe then he'll think twice about his actions.

When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading.

Henny Youngman (1906 - 1998)

June 9, 2003

quote:
...I think you had better go to this http://www.geocaching.com/profile/default.asp?A=87227&u=9826085691 and take a good hard look at it - you might learn something.

Well, Seneca - I can't say as I know what your point was with that remark, but it made me look anyway. So, I just wanted to thank you for pointing it out - as I will now be sure to reference it before I make a trip to Vancouver. Truly a useful collection of info, and Jamorac seems to have a sense of humor, as well...

June 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Huntnlady:
Read about an even scarier encounter I had, http://www.geocities.com/ihunts/kitty.html.....................................................now that I'm doing some geocaching I guess I'll have to go out and buy a handgun. 44 mag out to be enough to stop a cat and small enough for my hands.

I read your story about the nocturnal catamount encounter. Fun stuff! Apologies for getting way off topic, but I grew up in Napa and am not familiar with Cedar Roughs or Fox meadow - just so I can better relate to the story...where are they? (give cords, if you like)

BTW, IF you manage to get a carry permit (unlikely in your state), It doesn't take anything near as big as a .44mag to stop a cougar. .357 will do the job quite well.

June 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by StarshipTrooper:
... and Jamorac seems to have a sense of humor, as well...

Yes. And it was refreshing to discover that.

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.

1.5k · June 9, 2003

The only reason I didn't push for it then was I was in a relatively good mood despite everything that was going on, and I was off talking to a group of 5 or 6 Scottsdale officers (it was a SLOOOOOOW night) about geocaching on the other side of my truck when I noticed the pickup leave (they were the cool ones), and the golfcart dude drove off. At the time, I didn't feel like being a jerk and thought about dropping the issue. However, soon I am submitting my application for officer, which requires contacts with officers being listed. Even though everything points to me being in the clear, it will look more so if he faces charges for his actions. Also, hopefully facing a judge will force a change in how he chooses to handle things which he does not understand (innocent civilian walking through an urban wash looking for cookie tins stashed under trees).

Brian

Team A.I.

1.5k · June 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by StarshipTrooper:

quote:
Originally posted by Huntnlady:
Read about an even scarier encounter I had, http://www.geocities.com/ihunts/kitty.html.....................................................now that I'm doing some geocaching I guess I'll have to go out and buy a handgun. 44 mag out to be enough to stop a cat and small enough for my hands.

I read your story about the nocturnal catamount encounter. Fun stuff! Apologies for getting way off topic, but I grew up in Napa and am not familiar with Cedar Roughs or Fox meadow - just so I can better relate to the story...where are they? (give cords, if you like)

BTW, IF you manage to get a carry permit (unlikely in your state), It doesn't take anything near as big as a .44mag to stop a cougar. .357 will do the job quite well.

A .40-cal will stop a large cat as well. Ask one of my officers who had a mountain lion attack him from a ledge just as he exited his patrol car on a traffic stop. Shot it in mid-air and it was dead before hitting the ground.

Brian

Team A.I.

2.7k · June 9, 2003

I was just thinking yesterday (*YAWN*) that threat level evaluations are pretty much useless.

People are not logical, rational beings. Each person will always have their very own "pet threats" which will be important for them on an emotional level, and no amount of analysis is going to change them from worrying about what they perceive to be a significant threat.

There can be no doubt whatsoever, in th U.S. at least, that the most dangerous thing a cacher does is travel to the site by car. Yet this entire thread centers on bears and cows and carrying guns.

So wear your seat belt, even if it makes your heat uncomfortable. And watch out for the cows and bears in the roadway.

Caint never did nothing.

GDAE, Dave

1.4k · June 10, 2003

Just read this and thought it applies here quite well...

The fact that something involves risk does not necessarily mean that it must be avoided. It means that it must be approached with clarity, commitment, understanding and preparation.

Ralph Marston (2003)

-----

The Boy Scout motto works pretty good too...

Be Prepared.

To me, these sound like words to live by.

*****

June 10, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jomarac5:
Just read this and thought it applies here quite well...

_The fact that something involves risk does not necessarily mean that it must be avoided. It means that it must be approached with clarity, commitment, understanding and preparation._

Ralph Marston (2003)

-----

The Boy Scout motto works pretty good too...

_ Be Prepared. _

To me, these sound like words to live by.

*****

I like your first quote best. It perfectly sums up how one should deal with risk. Most people however, do not approach risk with a good mixture of "clarity, commitment, understanding and preparation".

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.

1.4k · June 10, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jomarac5:
Just read this and thought it applies here quite well...

_The fact that something involves risk does not necessarily mean that it must be avoided. It means that it must be approached with clarity, commitment, understanding and preparation._

Ralph Marston (2003)

-----

The Boy Scout motto works pretty good too...

_ Be Prepared. _

To me, these sound like words to live by.

*****

GREAT POINTS! All of the above is absolutely true. And I believe there are few who would disagree with that.

The dividing point is what some people consider proper preparation. Some like a light tool box, and make due with what they have, proper or not. Others like to have the right tool for the job. True, you can drive a nail with your forehead, but a hammer is so much more efficient.

On preparation... some stop with hands. Some have a knife, others pepper spray. (I recommend FOAM). Some carry a pistol. Obviously, I like having the best tool for the job. Which one I use depends on the situation, and how far the attacker wants to take it.

In Texas, pepper-foam is considered simple assault. If you are justified to strike your attacker in self defense, then pepper-foam is authorized too. Check your local laws, you state may wish you to be a victim rather than a survivor. And Pepper-Foam is preferred over hands or knives. If you must close to contact, you are in danger. Non-contact weapons are preferred for defense.

Prepararion and awareness are the keys to survival, in ANY situation! Again, GREAT POINTS.

Mike. Desert_Warrior (aka KD9KC).

El Paso, Texas.

Citizens of this land may own guns. Not to threaten their neighbors, but to ensure themselves of liberty and freedom.

They are not assault weapons anymore... they are HOMELAND DEFENSE WEAPONS!

1.6k · June 10, 2003

Tuesday, June 10, 2003

Imperfections

No matter how much planning and preparation you do, something will not turn out the way you wanted it to be. Yet even when those inevitable disappointments do indeed come, you can adapt and make the very most of them.

Life is not perfect and yet it can be perfectly wonderful. It's great to aim for perfection, and even better to achieve excellence in spite of the imperfections you encounter. When people and situations refuse to cooperate, you can be amazingly adaptable. You can move toward excellence even in the most distressing, imperfect scenarios.

Though what you have is not perfect, you can work with it. Accept what you have, imperfections and all, with gratitude and enthusiasm. Don't spend your time waiting for the perfect situation, something which is not very likely to come. Go ahead with life as it is, with the bumps and the pitfalls, and give your best to every moment.

-- Ralph Marston

June 10, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by canadazuuk:
Tuesday, June 10, 2003

Imperfections

No matter how much planning and preparation you do, something will not turn out the way you wanted it to be. Yet even when those inevitable disappointments do indeed come, you can adapt and make the very most of them.

Life is not perfect and yet it can be perfectly wonderful. It's great to aim for perfection, and even better to achieve excellence in spite of the imperfections you encounter. When people and situations refuse to cooperate, you can be amazingly adaptable. You can move toward excellence even in the most distressing, imperfect scenarios.

Though what you have is not perfect, you can work with it. Accept what you have, imperfections and all, with gratitude and enthusiasm. Don't spend your time waiting for the perfect situation, something which is not very likely to come. Go ahead with life as it is, with the bumps and the pitfalls, and give your best to every moment.

-- Ralph Marston

'Zuuk, taken as a whole, that is a good philosophy. Unfortunately, there are a lot of sheeple out there (or sheeple herders) who lift only one sentence from it to hang their hat on. "Accept what you have, imperfections and all, with gratitude and enthusiasm."

Those who would rule unjustly over others (that includes violent criminals, BTW) just LOVE to hear that phrase repeated.

One thing strikes me about this whole discussion, and I mentioned it before - funny that it garnered no response...

A handgun in no big hardship to carry (if you're a free person). Yet those who are against them treat the subject as if we who are not are going out of our way to be armed, while ignoring more "real" threats. I especially hear this coming from north of the border and from those remaining 16 states where it is not legally possible to be armed in public for defense, and it sounds a lot like sour grapes to me. (as in, "my excuse for not demanding my rights is that I don't really believe they are useful")

I think THAT aspect of this thread should be left to those who at least have the POSSIBILITY of even considering it, if you want an honest discussion. Or at least, those who CAN'T do it should come clean with the truth of their "perspective".

1.8k · June 10, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Brian - Team A.I.:

A .40-cal will stop a large cat as well. Ask one of my officers who had a mountain lion attack him from a ledge just as he exited his patrol car on a traffic stop. Shot it in mid-air and it was dead before hitting the ground.

Yeah, I shot a tick once in mid-air. It to, died before it hit the ground. Those blood sucking little buggers. Now if I could only find a way to see those dang chiggers, I'll shot'm up, them som beaches. Sheet far, you never know when your gonna come face-to-face with a pack of them there wild deathray chiggers, know what I mean. I ain't skert, it's just you should always be prepared, so pack that pistol and don't ya dare give an inch.

"heck, that scares me and I'm fearless"

June 10, 2003

I wonder what "soapy boy" would do if he came across a bear in the woods?

Spzzmoose & "the monsters"

1.7k · June 10, 2003

spzzmoose - now you did it!

I daren't go to sleep ever again, in case that mental image ever comes back.

Just about time for this thread to die.......

DustyJacket

Not all those that wander are lost. But in my case...

June 10, 2003

I have found some very rare footage of "soapy boy" stealing a bears cache! Enjoy

The Soapy Shuffle

Spzzmoose & "the monsters"

June 10, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by clearpath:

quote:
Originally posted by Brian - Team A.I.:

A .40-cal will stop a large cat as well. Ask one of my officers who had a mountain lion attack him from a ledge just as he exited his patrol car on a traffic stop. Shot it in mid-air and it was dead before hitting the ground.

Yeah, I shot a tick once in mid-air. It to, died before it hit the ground. Those blood sucking little buggers. Now if I could only find a way to see those dang chiggers, I'll shot'm up, them som beaches. Sheet far, you never know when your gonna come face-to-face with a pack of them there wild deathray chiggers, know what I mean. I ain't skert, it's just you should always be prepared, so pack that pistol and don't ya dare give an inch.

"heck, that scares me and I'm fearless"

Another typical hoplophobe response...stereotypng gun owners as illiterate rednecks or hillbillys. Lame....

...clear as mud?

1.8k · June 10, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by StarshipTrooper:

Another typical hoplophobe response...stereotypng gun owners as illiterate rednecks or hillbillys. Lame....

...clear as mud?

Oh yeah, well I can spit tobacca furth'n you.

"heck, that scares me and I'm fearless"

1.3k · June 10, 2003

I have felt the need to carry on a couple of caches. However, the gun was not on my person, rather zipped up in my pack on one cache, and stashed in a raft on another (gators). As to worrying about drawing uneccesary attention from law enforcement, I belive that an area where police are vigilant enough to notice a concealed weapon is an area safe enough to leave it in the car. If an area is full of dangerous criminals, it is probably due to a lack of sufficient police presence.

"The fertilizer has hit the ventilator"

June 10, 2003

I've had two experiences that were freaky.

One I posted a little about before on another topic. I was in Tulsa up on Turkey Mountain doing the cache there and left my husband and daughters in the truck. I took out on the trail and heard something in the leaves that would not have been a squirrel or bird or snake. I had the two way radio with me, and of course my big knife and walking stick. I radioed to my husband that I was headed back. I tried not to act to freaked around my daughters, but that night after they went to bed, I told my husband that was the sickest feeling I had ever gotten. Always go with your gut feeling!!!!!

Second time was in Broken Arrow on a cache at a park. Again, husband and daughters in the truck and I go out venturing to find the cache. I had just about given up when the two men headed over to the woods where I was at. I immediately started talking really loud and asking if they were geocachers. I'm sure they could see my knife in my pocket. I had my mace on me too. (Decided to go buy some after the first situation) They were both right up on me talking to me and kind of looking at me a little too much - I kept backing my way away from them to get away from them so I could head back to the truck. Like I said earlier - always go with your gut feeling!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Nice find! I must go tell Harry, Ron and Hermione."

Personal Safety/Security

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