Personal Safety/Security

June 6, 2003

delete - in error

1.1k · June 6, 2003

My wife sometimes gets creeped out by the places that caches tend to be hidden. I was thinking of hiding a cache in a certain area, when she (who grew up in this town) told me it was a spot where an abducted child's body was found.

1.8k · June 6, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jolly B Good:

OUCH!!! Poor Mark. That photo is gruesome. Heck. I guess if I lived in Bear Country I'd be carrying some bear spray too. Scary.

I agree, very gruesome. At least the guy lived to start his own 'Bear Spray' empire. Had he tried to shot a grizzly with a .38 or 9mm (probably any firearm smaller than a 300 WIN MAG) then he may not have lived through the attack. There are many accounts of people having to shot a grizzly mutliple times (with a rifle) before the bear finally stops his charge.

Somehow I wonder if pepper spray is going to work when a grizzly is charging you. Do they make 'pepper granades'.

"heck, that scares me and I'm fearless"

June 6, 2003

In my short time caching I have never encountered a situation that I couldn't get out of quickly. However, that doesn't mean I shouldn't go prepared.

I always carry my trusty Glock 19 with a couple of extra mags in either a paddle holster or small-of-the-back. I have been licensed to do this since I was 21 so this is not anything new to me. Recently I have also been carrying a fixed blade knife having been trained in it's use as a defensive weapon as well. These are merely precautions and tools for defense. Nothing more. I hope to God I will NEVER have to use either one.

Before I started geocaching I carried most of this stuff around with me anyway. It is always better to be prepared.

My 2 cents. BTW...Hi, I'm jpthegeek.

1.5k · June 6, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by seneca:

quote:
Originally posted by Brian - Team A.I.:
I was with my teammate heading to the Willow Springs Well area, when we happened upon a guy with a rifle in the parking area, right in front of a sign clearly identifying that target shooting was illegal. His dog was with him, but the guy looked to be about 12 cans shy of a 6-pack. As we approached the area (still in vehicle), he reached into the car, and chambered a round in the rifle. My teammate got out and I stayed on the passenger side of the vehicle with my weapon drawn. He was acting real nervous/skiddish, so I kept gun in hand until he decided we weren't going to leave first and took off out of the area.

This seemed to me to be potentially a VERY dangerous situation. I am somewhat surprised by your response particularly in view of the way you percieved this guy. I think I would have dealt with it by staying in my vehicle and telling my passenger to do the same, and then immediatly drive away from the area, and report this armed, unstable looking character to the police. That, I think would have been a much safer response. I'm glad that you and your friend didn't come to any harm.

_I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me._

http://www.cslaw.ca/geol4.JPG

My thinking at the time was simple. Rifle=long range, high penetration ability. Turning around and driving off could have been more dangerous than being in a closer contact situation with him. The fact that I was ready, and he'd have had to reach for the rifle laying across his seat gave me the drop on him. My teammate quickly came over to my side of the vehicle, leaving an engine block separating the two parties.

Besides, he didn't chamber the rifle until we were almost on top of him, and didn't begin to exhibit unusual behavior until we were both out of our truck. Then, he started acting weird. It was a judgement call, and I felt comfortable with what I did.

Brian

Team A.I.

22k · June 6, 2003

I want to know what we are going to do about this cow problem. Isn't there a spray for that? I can't shoot them and claim I thought it was a moose. It just gets the farmer real mad.

Actually, I live in Iowa and have a few cows of my own. The only cow around here that would come near you, is one that thinks you are going to feed it. It's the ton and a half bull that you should watch out for.

But now that I think about it, those cows do watch me pretty close. They could be waiting for the right moment for attack and escape. If they ever figure out I'm on to them, that could be it for me!

Killer cows. What's next? Chickens of Death?

[This message was edited by Team X40 on June 06, 2003 at 10:58 AM.]

2.6k · June 6, 2003

I have never felt unsafe when caching. Not in urban areas, not in rural. Well, the only exception might be when I have climbed on some steep cliffs, but I've never had any fear of someone being a threat to me.

I don't own a gun. I feel no need. People don't get killed by guns around here too often. Those who do are mostly shot by someone they know, like a member of their family.

- I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory. -

June 6, 2003

I have felt unsafe while caching. Mainly due to the large amounts of Bear scat we were stepping over as we walked into the area in the dark. But the worst so far was a midday cache on a muddy hillside in which I found small bear tracks on the trail as we walked through tall brush. The tracks were fresh, the brush thick, and the trail was not something I wanted to try to hurry down since it was so slick. On the way down I decided we had better pick up some Bear spray sometime soon.

The funniest think I have ever seen was an old guy filling up his old ford truck at a gas station in Helena, MT. He had a gun on each hip and had the whole cowboy look going. Authentic, not dude. He was getting the funniest stares from these tourists. They were awed by him just wearing the guns in public. It was SO funny.

And once, while we were target shooting at my Grandma's (towards the mountain, safely) some tourists who were camping across the river called the police to complain that they were hearing gunshots and were afraid. The cops arrived about 30 minutes later, after we had put the guns away, lucky for us the targets were still on the hillside. They asked us not to shoot towards the river. Then they left laughing about the tourists.

-Jennifer

Age does not bring wisdom, but it does give perspective.

1.8k · June 6, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Team X40:

Killer cows. What's next? Chickens of Death?

How about "Planet of the Ducks" ?

"heck, that scares me and I'm fearless"

1.3k · June 6, 2003

I keep thinking about getting a carry permit for one of my pistols, but I figure that a combined 400 pounds of man and dog armed with a police style maglite and dog teeth and claws would usually dissuade the common mugger.

Unless, of course, they have a gun. But I've dealt with that before, too.

1.7k · June 6, 2003

How does you dog carry the flashlight?

DustyJacket

Not all those that wander are lost. But in my case...

3.1k · June 6, 2003

I felt uneasy while caching alone in the mountains of an unfamiliar state recently. People knew where I was, but that only helps after something has happened. I was mostly nervous about animals, but the swastikas painted on some rocks added concern. That's not to say I didn't have a great time, but I have a much better understanding of why some folks carry. It's not usually an issue at home.

Well the mountain was so beautiful that this guy built a mall and a pizza shack

Yeah he built an ugly city because he wanted the mountain to love him back -- Dar Williams

24.7k · June 6, 2003

I grew up where people packed weapons. It was not common but it was no where near uncommon. Just a fact of life and a necessity when you worked outside. Alaskan bears can be aggessive as hell.

Now that I'm in Idaho, it's not the bears that I think would give me the most problem it's a badger. Those nasty buggers can do a number on about anything, I don't even think bears come out on top when they go head to head with one.

=====================

Wherever you go there you are.

2.6k · June 6, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by TEAM 360:
You are sleeping at home and you hear someone breaking into your house. What's the first thing you wish you had?

A more pleasant dream?

- I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory. -

June 6, 2003

Just for the record......I DID go out alone this morning. I took my dog and my bear spray. I didn't need either one. It was a beautiful hike with a falls at the end of the trail, AND I was FTF!!

I'm glad I ignored my fear and common sense, I plan on going out alone more often!

OG

Prophetically Challenged

2.5k · June 6, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Bull Moose:
I keep thinking about getting a carry permit for one of my pistols, but I figure that a combined 400 pounds of man and dog armed with a police style maglite and dog teeth and claws would usually dissuade the common mugger.

Your little one pound dog sounds cute.

1.3k · June 6, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by DustyJacket:
How does you dog carry the flashlight?

With his mouth. I wouldn't want to screw up my dog teeth by carrying it in mine!

1.3k · June 6, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by cachew nut:

Your little one pound dog sounds cute.

Hmm... I think I need to change my avatar!

June 6, 2003

Folk:

Fascinating discussion about the need to pack heat or long guns geocaching. Yesterday I was nervous about the errant crazy dude seeing a female victim in the woods. Today I’m thinking it’s the nervous geocacher I need to keep a head up for.

5.9k · June 6, 2003

quote:
Today I’m thinking it’s the nervous geocacher I need to keep a head up for.

So an honest but armed citizen frightens you? Like I said over on page one,

quote:
My gun will never act on its own behalf; it just sits there all heavy on my belt. My first resort, if such a situation should come along, is still to run. I’d like to make it through my life w/o shooting anyone. Nevertheless, I will not be cornered, I will not be someone’s victim, and will not stand by helplessly while my family or property are threatened with harm.

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

June 6, 2003

"Honest" armed citizens don't frighten me. You took a leap interpreting there. Being a resident Texan, one wouldn't know that I'm not armed myself on in state or reciprocal state caches. I said it was the nervous armed geocacher that I should keep eyes up for. Try not to assume so much.

Cheers.

1.4k · June 6, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:

quote:
Today I’m thinking it’s the nervous geocacher I need to keep a head up for.

So an honest but armed citizen frightens you?

Maybe if all us red-neck crazy gun owners would wear dark blue uniforms with patches on our shoulders they would not be so paranoid.

OTOH, they will never get it. They will never understand, just like the liberal socialist democrats in this country. It is not the honest law abiding citizens you need to fear. Even though we feel the constitution gives us the RIGHT to carry, we obey what we consider an illegal law and submit to local, state, and FBI background checks and take classes. It is the criminal (no slander intended bud!) with no intent to obey the carry law or other laws, and no intent to do anything more than victimize innocent people that they should fear.

Here you go. You are in a Wal-Mart parking lot. Two guys are beating you senseless and trying to get you to give up your money and car. Your kid is belted in the back seat. I am 30 feet away, watching. I have a pistol in my right pocket, and a cell phone in my left pocket.

QUESTION. Should I dial 911 and wait for the police to arrive? Or should I loudly demand that they let you be, hope they run, but mentally prepare for them to ignore me, or come at me. Think quick now, they are still beating you. Your blood is spilling on the pavement.

DING - time is up. Hope it wasn't your life-time.

Now, add to this scenario... most states that allow citizens to carry concealed weapons have much less of this sort of crime. The criminals want EASY victims. They don't want to find out grandma is packing a .357. So they go to places where guns are outlawed. LA, DC, NYC, Chi-town, Canada, Great Britain, Australia.

Final FACT. People who pass the classes and checks for a carry license are usually the most law-abiding in society. Even more-so when they are packing. Being cut off in traffic is not worth fighting over when the outcome could be deadly.

Criminal, you are my sort of fellow. When ya coming for a visit? Got a nice guest house out back, cable TV, high-speed internet, microwave, and two beds. Got army cots for the kids.... Sept-Oct is the best time of year here.

Mike. Desert_Warrior (aka KD9KC).

El Paso, Texas.

Citizens of this land may own guns. Not to threaten their neighbors, but to ensure themselves of liberty and freedom.

They are not assault weapons anymore... they are HOMELAND DEFENSE WEAPONS!

24.7k · June 6, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by LUNAPIE:
"Honest" armed citizens don't frighten me. You took a leap interpreting there. Being a resident Texan, one wouldn't know that I'm not armed myself on in state or reciprocal state caches. I said it was the nervous armed geocacher that I should keep eyes up for. Try not to assume so much.

Cheers.

It's not the ones who admit packing heat that you need to watch out for. It's the guys who are smooth and charming like Ted Bundey

Ok and don't run over the dog of one of those geocahers who do pack heat. They get rather upset.

My brother was on the Dalton Highway and stopped in at some bar. As he was walking by this truck a dog jumped out and lunged for him. He did an instinctive kick and knocked the dog out cold. The owner saw this and came out ready for blood. He stuck his pistol in my brothers face and started screaming about the dog. My brother having had enough crap was yelling back at the dog's owner. This went on for some time. Finally one of my brothers friends got his rifle out and pointed it at the dog owner. That finally got the owner to back down. So much for a nice cold beer.

There are dogs and there are dogs and the owner makes all the difference. I'm looking foward to another one that I can take geocaching who isn't gun shy (yes this has been a problem and I don't pack heat).

=====================

Wherever you go there you are.

June 6, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by clearpath:

I agree, very gruesome. At least the guy lived to start his own 'Bear Spray' empire. Had he tried to shot a grizzly with a .38 or 9mm (probably any firearm smaller than a 300 WIN MAG) then he may not have lived through the attack. There are many accounts of people having to shot a grizzly mutliple times (with a rifle) before the bear finally stops his charge.

Actually, there are plenty of accounts of paople stopping a bear (even grizzley) with far less than a 300mag. Just last year a fellow in Alaska shot and killed a charging griz with his 9mm pistol. Do the proper internet search and you will find the news reports of the incident. On the opther hand, it is not uncommon for people of poor marksmanship to fire multiple shots at and into all sizes of attackers with all sizes of guns without effect. That's why those who are knowledgeable of firearms will harp on the three most important things of shooting - "shot placement, shot placement, and shot placement".

quote:
Somehow I wonder if pepper spray is going to work when a grizzly is charging you. Do they make 'pepper granades'.

Yeah, me too - that's why I'd rather have a gun. It has a longer documented history of effectivenes.......AND I don't have to worry about it going off accidentally, like pepper spray sometimes does.

quote:
"heck, that scares me and I'm fearless"

Why does it seem that many folks who claim to be fearless also claim to fear in the hands of law abiding citizens?

NOW MORE TO THE TOPIC.........

Since I began geocaching, I have learned first-hand the value of a high-quality flashlight. Police officers and others routinely carry a light made by Surefire - not just to see better, but also as a defensive device. The lights from this company are so bright and focussed that flashing them in the face of an attacker can give you the chance to relocate while he is still temporarily blinded. A side benifit is that my Surefire e2e will really light up a cache site! I carry it even in daylight, to light up dark corners that no ordinary flashlight could manage....

But now I'm drifting off the subject.

No, I have not been threatened while geocaching by anything larger than a tick. But there's still time.....

22k · June 6, 2003

meanwhile, back at the geocaching forum......

June 6, 2003

...OH, BTW - I suppose better pre-empt any posts about how I "reccommended a 9mm" for bear defense. Nothing in my previous post should suggest that I think a 9mm is an effective bear-defense firearm. I wouldn't carry anything less than a .44mag in griz country or a .357 with heavy loads in black bear country.

Also, BTW - the U.S. now has 34 states that allow concealed carry for all mentally competent law-abiding adults (once you jump through the hoops). There is no need to guess or wonder what happens when good folks go legally armed in public. All the Chicken Little "sky is falling!" prophesies we heard when this movement began back in the eighties (Dodge City, blood in the streets, shots in the heat of passion, yadda, yadda...) have not come to pass. We who may be legally armed are no threat to you who are not (unless you mean harm...).

And if you start a discussion about personal safety and security, it is only natural that firearms will enter in. No, they are not the be-all, end-all of personal security - and we can discuss other tools/techniques as well. If this offends you, then you can put your head back in the sand, where you can blissfully ignore it...

1.5k · June 6, 2003

On a lighter note, have you ever seen a cop do the 2-1 hand sign? 2 fingers on the chest, one on the head.

Granted, you'll likely NEVER see them do that to the general public, but it's always kind of humerous in the behind closed door mocking of gang bangin'....

Brian

Team A.I.

1.8k · June 6, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by StarshipTrooper:

No, I have not been threatened while geocaching by anything larger than a tick. But there's still time.....

Well, you had better be prepared to battle when one of those ticks charges you. I recommend the Colt 44 mag 8" Ananconda. Put the laser sight on and those ticks don't stand a chance. Rarely, have I heard of a tick surviving more than (3) direct hits. If the tick continues to charge then use your flashlight (ticks hate the bright light).

"heck, that scares me and I'm fearless"

3.8k · June 6, 2003

I have been sneaking around in the woods for many years (most recently geocaching) and usually I feel like I'M the weirdo. Never have I been afraid of anyone I've encountered. Some animals have scared the scat out of me. I've scared the scat out of some animals and people.

Mostly, I'm very quiet (and AWARE) of my surroundings and I avoid encounters that may not be pleasant.

I don't carry a gun but I respect the right to do so. I'm somewhat surprised at the apparent frequency of gun-toting geocachers.

And yes, I have been chased by a cow.

June 6, 2003

Thank you Septic for bringing us back on subject. I know a lot of guys here enjoyed turning this into a "Gun-Talk" forum. I could care less if a Gloc or a 9mm is the best weapon against a grizzly. I would never feel comfortable carrying a gun on a geoching outing. Just say the word outloud.....Geocaching.....it's fun, the word actually makes you smile!

Now before everyone gets all wadded up, I DO believe in our right to bear arms, more power to you! And as for for bear spray accedentally going off, I'd rather have that happen than have a 9mm accedentally going off.

BTW sept1c, (totally off-topic) I graduated from PHS! How's the town holding up?

OG

Prophetically Challenged

June 6, 2003

Anyone know of any websites that track nationwide (US) wooded human assaults & animal attacks? I'd like to know what the risks are, compared to urban areas.

June 6, 2003

Another very good question, timpula. I was wondering that too. We have here in Washington a site that gives trail conditions, ie: snow covering and accessibility. I've wondered if there were a site to report "sitings" such as Bear , coyote or cougar. I'm sure that it would be a state run site if there were such a thing?

Anyone know?

OG

Prophetically Challenged

2.7k · June 6, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by StarshipTrooper:
<snip>

And if you start a discussion about personal safety and security, it is only natural that firearms will enter in. No, they are not the be-all, end-all of personal security - and we can discuss other tools/techniques as well. If this offends you, then you can put your head back in the sand, where you can blissfully ignore it...

Correct. Firearms are only one tool in the toolbox. Many of the tools of safety are mental and psychological rather than physical.

Think ahead what the hazards might be and prepare, both mentally and physically, before the hunt.

It is of foremost importance to enter the woods (or wherever) with the attitude, I'm not going to be a VICTIM today. Alertness and awareness are paramount.

Are you fit for the exertion you are about to undergo?

Do you have a medical condition or disability (challenge *pc*) that might be a problem?

Could you get out or get help if you sprain an ankle or break a leg?

Bottom line- Do you know your physical limitations and do you have sense enough to stay within their boundaries?

Do you and your partners know enough first aid to handle a minor injury so that it does not become life threatening if you can't get help right away?

Where are you?

Of course a geocacher always knows EXACTLY where he is (unless he has a Garmin), but the coordinates don't mean anything to most 911 call-takers. So you should be prepared to give detailed (and correct!) directions to your location- from the nearest road.

Knowing where you are at all times and having a good escape plan is more likely to save your life than any kind of weaponry. Could you and your caching partner tell someone where to come to help? How long would it take for help to arrive? Does your cellphone work here?

And if you can't get help on the way?

One should also have at least the most rudimentary survival gear if the area is not in a popular place.

Minimum: water, small amount of food, knife (see below), lighter (much better than matches), portable light source. Desert Warrior's pack is excellent, but perhaps a little more than needed for a casual cacher in a park.

Regarding weapons:

Carrying a gun in some places may put you at more risk from the law than you are from the oft-mentioned animals or humans. It is therefore prudent to have other weapons at your disposal. The bear spray sounds like a reasonable alternative, albeit not something I would like to stake my life on. But even if you have no 'weapons' with you, you are still not 'out of luck'.

I have learned to think of virtually everything within reach as a potential weapon. (This is primarily in reference to human threat)

For example: a cup of coffee can be thrown in the face, the cache contents or your cache goodies can be thrown aside for a distraction. A PROPER cache container (ammo box) makes a wonderful blunt force instrument. There are rocks on the trail, briar vines, sticks, etc. you get the picture.

And you should NEVER EVER EVER go outdoors without a knife! If you don't have one, perhaps you will get lucky and find one left in a cache 'just for you' and you can do your good deed for the day by removing the offensive object and putting it in your pocket where it belongs.

Conclusion (HOORAY!):

Luke 22:36

He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. (NIV)

The Lord told His disciples to 'be prepared'. It is equally good advice for us 21st century nuts that hunt junk in the woods.

And a good run is better than a poor stand.

So there.

Caint never did nothing.

GDAE, Dave

June 6, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by timpaula:
Anyone know of any websites that track nationwide (US) wooded human assaults & animal attacks? I'd like to know what the risks are, compared to urban areas.

If there isn’t one - it would be an excellent idea to start one.

There is widespread misapprehension of risk in our society. There are very few easily accessible/understandable empirical resources to assist us in assessing risk. People tend to erroneously assess risk based on anecdotal evidence, generally distorted by the media (or people out to make a buck). For example, people willingly partake in relatively risky behavior (driving vehicles at high speed, over consumption of drugs/alcohol/tobacco, skiing or snow boarding “out of bounds” ) while at the same time taking great steps to avoid extreme low risks (cancelling travel plans to Toronto because of SARS, or avoiding wilderness trips for fear of bear attack, or not flying because of fear of terrorism).

If most people took the time to actually analyze and assess risk and behaved (or modified their behavior) accordingly, Las Vegas, would still be a small “hole-in-the-wall” desert town. Lottery ticket sales would grind to a standstill.

I like to have empirical evidence before I change my behavior due to a perceived risk. I would guess (only on my rough analysis of anecdotal evidence ) that the risk of getting lost or injured by accident in wooded parks and wilderness areas it greater by a factor of many times over that of meeting misfortune by animal or human attack - but one would never think so by observing how people seem to generally view those risks.

An easily accessible and understandable database of accidents and other misfortunes in parks/wilderness areas would be a great help to prepare for the real risks that face us when geocaching and I think would probably eliminate most perceived fears.

(Please correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t think anybody has answered the question I posed at the beginning of this thread affirmatively - although there appear to have have been a couple of scary incidents)

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.

5.9k · June 6, 2003

dadgum cats!

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

1.7k · June 6, 2003

I feel inadequate, in that I have NOT been chased by a cow.

DustyJacket

Not all those that wander are lost. But in my case...

June 7, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Team X40:
Actually, I live in Iowa and have a few cows of my own. The only cow around here that would come near you, is one that thinks you are going to feed it. It's the ton and a half bull that you should watch out for.

I've had a bull come after me, not running but he just kept comming through the woods, so I hopped into and up a small creek ravine.

Just the other day I passed between a cow and its calf on a narrow trail, just as the calf decided to drop on its side and role in the dirt. The mother came running! That was scary!

I talk to the cows and watch their body language and try not to get beween the cow and the calf.

There are bulls but they don't seem to be too aggressive, but I won't walk near them. Their horns have been cut off.

The young bulls are starting to get that "attitude" and stand their ground. I'm wondering when they may start to act out their bullish nature and possibly charge?

Also concerned about the possibility of encountering a recently "worked up" cow, having just been harrassed by some hiker's dog. Some people just let their dogs go after the cattle. I've watched cows charge dogs and they can move pretty quick when ****ed off.

Think many of long bovine stares are an attempt to discern if there is a dog associated with the human.

Any other cow or bull tips would be appreciated.

----------

Greenjeens

"There's no need to be afraid of strange noises in the night. Anything that intends you harm... will stalk you silently."

[This message was edited by Greenjeens on June 07, 2003 at 06:41 AM.]

1.6k · June 7, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by LUNAPIE:
I said it was the nervous armed geocacher that I should keep eyes up for.

How would you come across a nervous geocacher? Are you going to look for some caches?

1.6k · June 7, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by seneca:
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t think anybody has answered the question I posed at the beginning of this thread affirmatively.

The question again:

Has anyone actually ever had an encounter while Geocaching where they were accosted, mugged, or assaulted (or heard of such an incident)?

So close calls and near misses don't count.

What is the goal of the question? What motivates the seeking of an outcome?

canadazuuk

June 7, 2003

I know that every year up here several people will get attacked by bears or moose. Last attack that I know of was a couple weeks ago. A 17 year old out hunting with friends got mauled by a grizzly. He survived, but had to get lots of stitches.

The odds of being attacked by an animal or human are small. Up here, tens of thousands of people go hiking every year and less than 5 on average get attacked. You are more likely to get in a car wreck than be attacked on the trail.

It is always a good plan to be prepared to take care of yourself while out. Whether it be against an attacker or being able to survive while injured or lost. When in the back country help is often hours away at best. To not be prepared for such incidents is foolish.

Odds are that you will never have a problem of any kind while out caching, but that is no excuse to be unprepared.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

1.6k · June 7, 2003

We've nothing to fear but fear itself, not fate, not failure, not fatal tragedy...

1.7k · June 7, 2003

I do like some earlier posters stated.

If a situation is creepy, I move on. (in the city or the woods)

I tried to be as prepared as possible. (food, water, pepper spray, flashlight, poncho, etc.)

I carry a 5-foot walking staff that is stout and has a brass tip. Since I have a bad leg, I need it, but it can also be used to keep something/someone at a distance.

If there are people loitering around a cache, I pass it by.

-------------------------------

After having spent a lot of time in NYC and Chicago on business, and traveled to many parts of the world, I tend to take the conservative approach that it is better to avoid trouble than to have to get out of trouble.

I have had a concealed weapons permit in another state. I didn't always carry, but when I did I felt more comfortable. I took a tip from Mssad Ayoob and carried some "throwaway" money in case I got accosted. It would certainly be worth losing $40 to avoid a battle.

In Missouri, there is no such thing as a CWP so I modify my personal rules, and try harder to avoid any possible trouble. Maybe that makes me boring, but it is more important (to me) that I go home each night (rather than to the morgue or to jail), than it is to find caches.

DustyJacket

Not all those that wander are lost. But in my case...

June 7, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by canadazuuk:
So close calls and near misses don't count.

canadazuuk

They are certainly relevant to the discussion. I’ve never been in a major motor vehicle accident - but I have had some "close calls and near misses". None of them affected my insurance premiums.

quote:
Originally posted by canadazuuk:
What is the goal of the question?

To satisfy curiosity and assess risk. (I am learning that cows pose a bigger risk than I would have thought.)

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.

June 7, 2003

How would you come across a nervous geocacher? Are you going to look for some caches?

Yep!

1.4k · June 7, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by seneca:

There is widespread misapprehension of risk in our society. People tend to erroneously assess risk based on anecdotal evidence, generally distorted by the media (or people out to make a buck).

If most people took the time to actually analyze and assess risk and behaved (or modified their behavior) accordingly, Las Vegas, would still be a small “hole-in-the-wall” desert town. Lottery ticket sales would grind to a standstill.

Although more often than not I disagree with seneca, he is right on this one.

My son (Army_Scout) is currently fighting in Iraq. No, the war isn't over yet. Even so, I believe he is safer there, trained and equipped as he is, than he would be in some of the larger cities of some "civilized" countries.

The question of assessment is something you learn. It starts by being ever alert.

On actually being mugged, no it has not happened to me. BUT....

My wife and I were shopping very late one night. She was getting money from a teller machine. I was covering her about 30 feet away. 3 teen-age kide (17-20) quickly approached her from the rear. It was quite dangerous, and armed only with a combat knife, I went forward. One of them sensed my approach, looked back, shouted, and they all three scattered.

Was that close enough for you? 3 against one? I am a bad dude, but bad enough to prevain against 3? Dunno. Glad I didn't need to find out. I applied for my handgun license the next day.

A year later, a friend of my wife's was mugged far from home at a dog show. To keep it short, my wife now has a carry permit also.

The point is to keep it from becomming a crime !!!

Those of us who carry take it seriously. As serious as life and death. But believe this, we will not be victims. Neither will you, if we can help. However, if you indicate that you would rather be beaten than have a handgun save you, please let us know. We will gladly step back and watch. That is safer for us anyway.

We live in a very safe area, in a very safe town, in a very safe state. Still, it can happen to anyone. Stay alert!

Mike. Desert_Warrior (aka KD9KC).

El Paso, Texas.

Citizens of this land may own guns. Not to threaten their neighbors, but to ensure themselves of liberty and freedom.

They are not assault weapons anymore... they are HOMELAND DEFENSE WEAPONS!

June 7, 2003

Still think the drive is the most dangerous part of caching, but there are other potential risks.

While resting in a horse pasture three horses suddenly came running right at me, stopping about 10 feet away. Got up so fast threw my knee out and had to call a Taxi on the cell phone to get a ride back to the car. Limping back to civilization, met a lady whos husband had been chased by the same horse.

While repairing a bathtub, which receives the outpt from a small sulfur spring, noticed a bat flying overhead. Stepping away fromm the tub the bat started to drink numerouis times from the same tub...during the day. Classic rabid bat behavoir. A break in the skin and some saliva could prove deadly. A man in our circle died of rabies, received unknoiwingly while caving.

At leat 6 times last year and once so far this year RATTLESNAKES have been on or next to the trail. Some rattling some sleeping. Though not often deadly, even when bitten, the venom can have lasting and serious long term effects on the unfortunate victim.

Trekking poles, keeping ears peeled and watching for snake shapes in the path are part of the routine.

I've been chased by a wild turkey...for well over 150 feet. Didn't realize she was sitting on a clutch of eggs.

Have received plenty of warnings about the Havalinas or wild boars. After finding a skull and teeth, it's easy to see how those sharp tusks could make a nasty gash. I did run into a troop of them foraging up a canyon. Luckily, I saw them first and put some distance between us. Those are large animals!

Most animals want food or a way out, but with a huge marauding black bear standing just outside my tent, I would have felt much better with some Bear Spray handy. It's very disturbing to wake up see such a large animal creeping around camp at night.

Hiking alone last week, some creature living in a small sandstone cave on a ridge, kept hissing a long warning, after I scrambled above.

Tried to get a look inside, but the smell of dead animals, and no chance for a quick retreat from the steep outcropping, were sufficient reasons to postpone exploration.

Also have run into a number of wild bee nests. Some very low in rocks or hollow tree branches. Though normaly placid, European honey bees may have become "africanized", having finally reached southwestern US from Brazil. Disturbing those nests can be lethal.

"There's no need to be afraid of strange noises in the night. Anything that intends you harm... will stalk you silently."

June 7, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by seneca:

...I would guess (only on my rough analysis of anecdotal evidence ) that the risk of getting lost or injured by accident in wooded parks and wilderness areas it greater by a factor of many times over that of meeting misfortune by animal or human attack - but one would never think so by observing how people seem to generally view those risks.

[/QOUTE]

Well, yes - and no. For the overall population, I believe your assumption is correct. But for a given individual, it may very well not be. Take me, for instance...I am very unlikely to get lost (with or without gps). Injuries are more of a problem - but again, I am very safety-concious when out in the woods. I have been through some pretty hairy conditions, in deeper wilderness than most of you here, I reckon (except those in Alaska, probably), but I have yet to have been in need of rescue. That's because I am prepared.

OTOH, I have been "targeted" by violent criminal intent while out and about - just not while geocaching. I have only been geocaching for 5 months, after all. Like I said - give it time, and it is likely to happen. In my area, we have seen escaped felons head for the woods and the desert quite often. There have been many cases where these miscreants obviously assumed that the "arm of the law" does not extend beyond city limits. Just off the top of my head, I can recall in my area a Forest ranger shot dead by escaped TEENAGE convicts, a violent camp invader that had to be shot in self defense, several other armed jailbreakers, a woman run off the road and stabbed repeatedly, another attacked by a state prison escapee while waiting in her car (I knew her personally), another assassinated by drug runners (how'd you like to happen across THAT while nightcaching?) - oh, and don't even get me started on the animal attacks (cougars and feral dogs top the list - so far). All of these incidents happened in wild or rural areas near locations that also happen to be geocache sites. Just because we are geocaching, does not seperate our likelyhood of being attacked from the rest of "life" - it's the location, not the activity that makes the most difference.

And BTW, statistically speaking, an individual is not likely to be attacked on any given day. But attacks do happen, and when they happen to you - the statistics are meaningless. Statistics are no substitute for prepairedness.

An easily accessible and understandable database of accidents and other misfortunes in parks/wilderness areas would be a great help to prepare for the real risks that face us when geocaching and I think would probably eliminate most perceived fears.

Don't know which "percieved fears" you are specifically referring to, but the National Forest Service and NPS do keep track of animal attacks and accidents in their jurisdictions. They also have material available to help you understand how to avoid the same. As for simply rural (or back-alley) areas - police departments do keep records, and there are also plenty of sources for avoiding trouble in these areas, but the best (as in - the ones with methods that are proven successful and reliable) are provided mostly by the so-called "gun culture", and are therefore apparently unacceptable for discussion in this forum.

(BTW, police departments are notoriously unreliable sources for personal security advice. As a rule they are too liability conscious to tell you what you REALLY need to know. Individual police officers, OTOH, can be a great source of wisdom and information.)

If you are truly concerned about safety and security, I would think you might take the time to seek these things out - it ain't rocket science...

quote:

(Please correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t think anybody has answered the question I posed at the beginning of this thread affirmatively - although there appear to have have been a couple of scary incidents)

Perhaps you are not getting answers because your question is too narrow in scope. Geocaching is a small part of our lives (for most of us), so the odds of ANY particular thing happening while geocaching are also small. Granted, some of us may never leave the safety of our homes for anything else - but many of us (myself included) are "out in it" far more than the time we spend geocaching. It is illogical to assume that just because one is geocaching, that the probability of a criminal assault is less than the overall average for a given area. If you want a more reasonable picture, I suggest you rephrase the question to include ALL activities in the vicinity of any geocache. That would get a host of replies, I would bet.

If you are simply looking for confirmation that geocaching ads no danger to your life overall, you can't get that here. The answer to that will be different for each individual. If you spend a great deal of your time outdoors and in unsecure places anyway (as I do) then I don't expect there would be a measurable increase of risk. If you normally spend the bulk of your time indoors (and not standing in the tub or climbing stairs), then geocaching may indeed increase your risks. The real question should be, "would that stop you (from living!), or would you rather deal with it?" I choose the latter.

2.7k · June 7, 2003

Good to know the NPS keeps records... now if only we could cache there.

Re: "Modifying personal rules" (Dusty Jacket 6-7-03)

Whether armed or not, no matter how well trained, it is ALWAYS best policy to avoid areas of frequent trouble unless you ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO go there.

Anyone who would strap on a gun and venture into a place where they KNOW there is likely to be a serious risk of attack and they don't have a REALLY GOOD reason to go there is a FOOL in my book.

My personal rules are the same, armed or not. You said it very well Dusty- it is better to avoid trouble than to TRY to get out of it.

Being trained and armed is a great plus for those places where you DON'T expect trouble.

Caint never did nothing.

GDAE, Dave

2k · June 7, 2003

I have never felt in danger doing a rural cache. I was more then a little nervous doing an urban cache when a group (gang?) of teenagers seemed to be working there way to me. Luckily for me there was a cop in the area that new what I was doing and chased them away. Truthfully I am probably in more danger because of some of the stupid things I do while geocaching. Such as climbing up a hill that turned into a verticle climb. Steep enough that I had to cut handholds and footholds into the hillside in order not to fall back down. I sometimes think I shouldn't be let out alone just to make sure I act more sensibly when I am on the hunt.

June 7, 2003

I hunt and Geocache alone all the time, and I have had few problems. I think a lot of it stems from your own attitude. If you come at people with a smile on your face and friendliness in your manner, they usually respond in like manner. Not always- but I have the creator of the universe looking over me for those other times.

I'm relatively new to geocaching, but in 25 years of hunting I've had a few close calls. Twice I nearly fell off of cliffs. A good pair of boots and the grace of God was all that saved me. I've been stalked by mountain lions three times. The first time I was tracking a deer up a creek bed, and there was a ledge on my right running along side the creek. Suddenly the hair stood up on the back of my neck, maybe the lion snapped a twig or something, but I whirled around to find myself eye to eye with a lion, with those bright yellow eyes. He twitched his tail, and before I could even raise my rifle he turned inside out and disappeared over the rise. That was in broad daylight. If I hadn't realized the lion was there, I have no doubt I'd have been lion lunch.

Read about an even scarier encounter I had, When Kitty Comes to Camp (By the way, I am placing a cache out in the same area next week, titled "When the going gets Rough")

My point is, I'm still here and still getting out there. These interesting times are just what we talk about.

Never been chased by cows, and now that I'm doing some geocaching I guess I'll have to go out and buy a handgun. 44 mag out to be enough to stop a cat and small enough for my hands.

Deer laugh when they hear my name!

http://www.geocities.com/cacheinon

Personal Safety/Security

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