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World Trade Center Bombing


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I just heard a news blip about how one of the plain hijackers was seen at the world trade center entering the coordinates the day before.

 

I dont want to sound like someone preaching that the sky is falling but I am thinking this could have a serious effect on geocaching.

 

If terrorists are going to use GPS technology for sinister things, then could our government take away this option for them to use it?

 

It is freaky to think that once they took over the cockpit then they simply used a GPS to take them right to the building.

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I think they almost certainly punched at least the general coordinates into the nav computer. It's important to note, however, that you need not have a GPSr to find the general coordinates of the World Trade Center or the White House/Pentagon. This info is easily found online.

 

Once you have the coordinates (and a jumbo jet) the rest is cake. Since aircraft (and boats) use GPS for navigation, it is extremely unlikely that it would be turned off.

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On second thought, it probably wasn't even one of the terrorists who was seen. It could have been you or me doing a little urban caching.

 

Which, I guess, is the whole point of your post. After this story has run and gets more publicity, we'll have to explain what we're doing to the fuzz more often.

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I just don't see it happening. Too many people rely on GPS too much. Aircraft use it, surveyors use it, etc.

 

Once the flood gates opened, there was no turning back.

 

As for using a GPS to find the WTC, remember, these guys all had experience in flight training. With a map and a compass, or even a sectional (aviation map) and a VOR (aviation pre-gps navaid), they would have no problem finding the building.

 

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wavey.gif Go! And don't be afraid to get a little wet!

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  • Cars
  • Cell Phones
  • Kitchen Knives
  • Paint Ball Guns
  • Real Live Guns
  • Staple Guns
  • Computers
  • The Internet
  • Steel Toe Boots
  • Paper
  • Pencils
  • The English Language
  • Other Languages

 

All of these things should be banned, TODAY!

 

--- Two paths diverged in a wood, and my... my GPSr pointed dead center between them. ---

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Interesting story, but it fails to quote one solid source.

 

I bought an aviation sectional map from Sporty's in Ohio. Thought about buying a GPS, too.

 

Gee, with 20/20 hindsight anyone can put any pieces together that they want to. Otherwise all that information BEFORE 9/11 would lead investigators to believe that they were learning how to fly airplanes.

 

Let's stop living in fear. If we die, we die. Get right with God if you need to. It's about the only preparation any of us can do.

 

---------------

wavey.gif Go! And don't be afraid to get a little wet!

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quote:
Originally posted by Waynepdx:

If terrorists are going to use GPS technology for sinister things, then could our government take away this option for them to use it?


 

Did they take away Ryder Truck Rentals after they had been used in several truck bombings? Nope!

 

There is way to much use of GPS technology to eliminate it from public use. It would cripple the economy.

 

Heck, one could almost fly visual into the Towers from quite aways away.

 

The best things in life are not things...

 

Now Open... http://www.geoindiana.com <-Click It! You know you want to!

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They were talking about this on the news today, and making a big deal of it. In fact one "expert" said he was suprised at the sophestication of the technology the terrorists were using. Sheesh, that's like being suprised at the high tech cell phones they were using, GPSrs have been around for several years now, and though not extremely accurate before selective availability was shut off, they were still fairly accurate. I am frankly suprised that they went to the site and took a waypoint, that was more exposure and travel than needed to get the info, as pointed out here already. All the info needed was a quick web search away.

 

ummmm....not sure what to say here....so ummm, well errrr, uhhhh, well I guess that's it.

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Ban GPS use by civilians because terrorists may have been aided by it....I say get to the heart of the matter....ban civilian air travel! I really dont think either will happen. Even with SA on they still would have had 100 meter accuracy, Id say with a target that size 500 meters would be close enough.

 

"You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you're going, because you might not get there." Yogi Berra

jeepsmiliedesertcamo.gif

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Just so you all know. Today is the last day of "Ratings Sweeps" for TV. This even counts for the news.

 

Don't forget it's Show Business! Not Show Fun.

 

====================================

As always, the above statements are just MHO.

====================================

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Index Finger

 

quote:
Originally posted by skydiver:

+ Cars+ Cell Phones+ Kitchen Knives+ Paint Ball Guns+ Real Live Guns+ Staple Guns+ Computers+ The Internet+ Steel Toe Boots+ Paper+ Pencils+ The English Language+ Other Languages

 

All of these things should be banned, TODAY!

 

--- Two paths diverged in a wood, and my... my GPSr pointed dead center between them. ---


 

In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's mind there are few. -- Shunryu Suzuki

Drive Fast, Take Chances. --(amongst others) Jon Bedford

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quote:
Originally posted by james f weisbeck kd7mxi terra utah:

the milatary has a Rgulation against public maping of gov bases MY DAD WORKS AT ONE


That's funny ... the map I use for Metropolitan Washington DC has every government agency and military base marked on it.

 

And what about things like this, this, and this?

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Originally posted by skydiver:

+ Cars+ Cell Phones+ Kitchen Knives+ Paint Ball Guns+ Real Live Guns+ Staple Guns+ Computers+ The Internet+ Steel Toe Boots+ Paper+ Pencils+ The English Language+ Other Languages

 

All of these things should be banned, TODAY!

 

You forgot Lawyers!

 

Seriously.

I understand the analogy of comparing rental vans etc. with GPSrs and their use by terrorists, and my first reaction was the same. Although I do not anticiapte GPSrs will ever be banned or restricted etc., I do see paranoia and terrorist association arising as a result of the publicity. I am constantly surprised at how many people still do not know what these devices are. Just yesterday, a police officer(that gave me a ticket) and a three U.S.customs agents at the U.S./Canadian border had no clue what my GM100 was, what it did or had even heard of the GPS in it's civilian form. Now take take Joe Blow sitting at home watching the 6 o'clock news and his introduction to the GPS is in the application of terrosoist activity. What do you believe his first thought will be when he sees a geocacher walking through the park with Garmin in hand will be?

MajBach

You can't have everything,where would you put it?

1compass.gif

 

[This message was edited by MajBach on May 23, 2002 at 07:19 AM.]

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I don't think it would take much effort to see two enormous buildings that towered above the skyline of New York, but maybe that's me.

 

A lot of news is written to engage the reader. This is just one of many sensationalist articles written by the press. "Tech" (magical word) and "catastrophe" both sell newspapers.

 

If I can get coordinates for government buildings on MapBlast, what does it matter that someone marks coordinates from the ground? This is the information age people, and as a result some risks have to be understood.

 

Jeremy

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

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my dad read it in the security clearence agreement they had him sign when he became a security guard at dugway proving ground utah back in 1986

 

it says maping and photography of the area on the test range is prohibeted unless you get written permision from the base commander.

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CacheAcrossAmerica

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/nearest_cache.asp?u=KD7MXI

http://www.cachunuts.com

 

[This message was edited by james f weisbeck kd7mxi terra utah on May 23, 2002 at 05:58 PM.]

 

[This message was edited by james f weisbeck kd7mxi terra utah on May 23, 2002 at 06:04 PM.]

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Channel 7 news in NY last night said the guy bought a GPS3 Pilot & cockpit view posters from Sporty's & then proceeded to show a similar unit & show how easy it was to place a marker over the Trade Center area & mark it as a waypoint w/o even going to the site.

 

Daily News blasted out an article stating the same thing.

 

Irrational or not, guess we'll be seeing GPSs banned from use on commercial flights.

 

I wonder if they'll freak out next time I take my parachute on a flight. FAA ok'd skydivers to carry on their parachutes a few years ago.

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Sept 11th was a clear, cloudless morning in NYC. I could see the towers burning from 7 miles away as if it on the next block. However, if it had been raining and overcast or foggy, having a GPS navigate you to the WTC would have been very helpful. Remember, although the terrorists did have flight training, they were not experts especially at using the on-board navigation equipment. A GPS could have been extremely "helpful" had the weather been different.

 

Alan

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan2:

Sept 11th was a clear, cloudless morning in NYC. I could see the towers burning from 7 miles away as if it on the next block. However, if it had been raining and overcast or foggy, having a GPS navigate you to the WTC would have been very helpful. Remember, although the terrorists did have flight training, they were not experts especially at using the on-board navigation equipment. A GPS could have been extremely "helpful" had the weather been different.

 

Alan


 

I highly doubt a GPS was used to find the towers. As so many have stated, they would be an easy visual, especially from low altitude. If a GPSr was used, it was more likely used to find New York City from several hundred miles away. From high altitude and especially high speed, it takes an experienced and trained map reader to navigate by visual reference to the ground; especially over highly populated areas.

 

I also doubt that a moderate bank was used to spread the impact to cover multiple floors. Looked to me like had the little pric not banked, he would have only clipped the side of the building.

Then again, who really knows what was going through their minds moments before impact. Probably thinking about the harem of women they are promised in the after life from making such noble self-sacrafices.

 

MajBach

You can't have everything,where would you put it?

1compass.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by james f weisbeck kd7mxi terra utah:

my dad read it in the security clearence agreement they had him sign when he became a security guard at dugway proving ground utah back in 1986

 

it says maping and photography of the area on the test range is prohibeted unless you get written permision from the base commander.


 

My base commander said it was ok to take pictures.

 

Bwah?

 

Sure, if you're an employee you sign things called "nondisclosure agreements" and stuff like that. The rule doesn't apply to the average Joe civilian. There's this tricky First Amendment that keeps getting in the way.

 

When I was in the military I couldn't tell my commander what an idiot he was or I'd go to jail. It's a different world in the military.

 

Just FYI, James, a civilian is one not on active duty in a military, police, or fire-fighting force. That would be, like, almost all of us here.

 

Jeremy

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

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go on the test range tour in nevada sometime THEY DON'T ALLOW BINOCULARS, CAMERAS, TAPE RECORDERS, GPS, ETC

 

they feel these could compromise national security.

 

read the red sign

warning.jpg

 

[This message was edited by james f weisbeck kd7mxi terra utah on May 24, 2002 at 04:56 PM.]

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James is right, in his own way. Jeremy is right too.

 

As a 30 year Army civilian employee, I can attest that the disclosure agreements and warnings about pictures and such by James are factually correct. They are hold overs from WWII and the cold war and are still in place nationwide.

 

Jeremy is right in that civilians, us, are in charge after all. But, we are second class citizens when on military bases. We are there at the discretion of the base commander. It's not a first amendment thing, it's a security thing - and the whim of the base commander.

 

Civilians who work at the base are subject to the military rules, just as folks "on the economy" as they put it, are subject to their bosses and the rules of the corporation.

 

Big diff is that if you work for IBM and violate IBM's rules, you're fired. If you work for the Army and violate the Army's rules, you're fired and prosecuted.

 

Segue - I think the most effective memorial that could be constructed at the WTC site is a new pair of towers.

 

-----------

"If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything." - Mark Twain

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quote:
Originally posted by Da Rebel:

Segue - I think the most effective memorial that could be constructed at the WTC site is a new pair of towers.


 

One of my favorite concepts about the show Babylon 5 is the fact that the station was built FIVE times. The first three were destroyed by terrorist, the forth disappeared (and became a fun plot point). I really love the conversation about why people would build it five times. I wish I could quote it.

 

It shows resolve to rebuild sometimes, it is very easy to destroy something, but to rebuild it takes many times more resolve and effort and expense. In other words, kinda like the ultimate 100+ story middle finger to Osama :-)

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*Racial Profiling...*

 

To ensure that we Americans never offend anyone -- particularly fanatics

intent on killing us -- airport screeners are not allowed to profile

people. They will, however, continue to perform random searches of

80-year-old women, little kids, airline pilots with proper

identification, Secret Service agents who are members of the President's

security detail, and 85-year old Congressmen with metal hips.

 

Let's pause a moment and take the following test:

 

In 1972, 11 Israeli athletes were killed at the Munich Olympics by:

*(a)* Grandma Moses;

*(:smile:* The night cleaning crew at Rockefeller Center;

*©* Invaders from Mars; or

*(d)* Arab Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

 

In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by:

*(a)* Norwegians from the Lichen Herbarium of the University of Oslo;

*(:D* Elvis;

*©* A tour bus full of 80-year-old women; or

*(d)* Arab Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

 

In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:

*(a)* A pizza delivery boy;

*(:D* Crazed feminists complaining that having to throw a grenade beyond

its own burst radius in basic training was an unfair and sexist job

requirement;

*©* Geraldo Rivera making up for a slow news day; or

*(d)* Arab Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

 

In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:

*(a)* Luca Brazzi, for not being given a part in "Godfather 2";

*(:D* The Tooth Fairy;

*©* Butch and Sundance, who had a few sticks of dynamite left over

from their train mission; or,

*(d)* Arab Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

 

In 1993, the World Trade Center was bombed by:

*(a)* The entire cast of "Cats";

*(:D* Martha Stewart;

*©* Cheese-crazed tourists from Wisconsin; or

*(d)* Arab Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

 

In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania a were bombed by:

*(a)* Mr. Rogers;

*(:)* Hillary, to distract attention from Wild Bill's women problems;

*©* The World Wrestling Federation to promote its next villain:

"Mustafa the Merciless"; or

*(d)* Arab Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

 

On 9/11/01 four airliners were hijacked and destroyed by:

*(a)* Bugs Bunny, Will E. Coyote, Daffy Duck, and Elmer Fudd.

*(:D* The US Supreme Court,

*©* Barney; or

*(d)* Arab Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

 

This proves beyond a reasonable doubt that the ACLU is completely right,

and that we should never use racial profiling -- even though it would

easily save thousands of American lives.

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