Permission for Caches

April 29, 2003

This topic was started up under the "Geocaching on NPR" topic. I felt it had strayed from that heading so opened this new topic.

Here is the flow from that thread:

quote:
Originally posted by Cheval:
I also think it's interesting that the reporter said: "At geocaching.com, Jeremy Irish says his website tells users to learn the rules and ask permission before hiding a cache. He hopes more government agencies will encourage geocachers to use public lands."

But in a recent dispute about two caches placed in the same location on public lands, the cache whose owner didn't bother to ask permission is still up on geocaching.com while the cache whose owner sought permission has been archived. Actions speak louder than words.

<snip>

Cheval

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):
<snip>

Get off your high horse. It was a virtual cache. No permission is required to "place" a virtual cache. Unless, of course, it's buried.

Thanks for playing.

<snip>

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

quote:
Originally posted by Nurse Dave & LKay:

quote:
Originally posted by Cheval:

But just because it's a virtual doesn't mean that permission shouldn't be asked, especially if caches in general are banned from a certain area.

What are they going to do. Tell a cache placer they can't ask people to visit a park to look at a sign or a tree?

quote:
Originally posted by Team GPSaxophone:

quote:
Originally posted by Cheval:
But just because it's a virtual doesn't mean that permission shouldn't be asked, especially if caches in general are banned from a certain area.

Does the park require you ask permission for you to post their address on the Internet? No? Then you don't need permission to post the coordinates either.

Here is my reply:

Believe it or not, some parks have a policy of going to Geocaching.com to see if a cache has been placed in their park. Sometimes it's just for curiosity, sometimes it's for policing.

In our area, we have a liaison whose job (volunteer job, btw) it is to champion geocaching to the various park authorities. He has worked very hard to cultivate a good working relationship between the cachers in the area and the park officials. He has done an EXCELLENT job.

If a virtual cache were placed in a park where permission was needed before placing a cache of any type, that would degrade some of his work and the respectful working relationship that now exists.

We have some cool traditional caches placed by PARK OFFICIALS. If we turned our backs on the agreements worked out, then those caches could be pulled and all caches banned (there are some 15 caches in this one park).

Then all we'd be left with would be virtuals. Virtuals have their place, but not the same as hunting a container.

All I'm saying is we should involve park officials in a good working relationship (and encourage that as a sport). Same as for any other sport taking place on public lands, like hiking, ATVing, horseback riding, moutain biking, etc.

Not because you have to have permission for virtuals necessarily, but because we need permission in some cases for traditionals and micros. If we can't be trusted in small things, why would we be trusted for the bigger things?

Cheval

To finish is to win. www.aerc.org

38.2k · April 29, 2003

I think you'll get about a dozen "markwells" within the next few posts. This topic has been discussed ad nauseam.

I can't imagine anything new to be added.

"It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues" -Abraham Lincoln

April 29, 2003

I understand what you are saying Cheval, but I couldn't disagree more. The whole theory of asking permission from a government official to post gps coordinates on a web site is ridiculous. If your putting a traditional cache in place, then of course you should ask permission and work with the officials.

I am assuming of course that everyone would have enough common sense to not place a virtual in some kind of fragile enviroment that is against the park/forest rules to be in the first place.

When you see the light at the end of the tunnel, make sure it's not a train coming at you

1.4k · April 29, 2003

Requesting permission is a good policy for placing caches. However, a virtual "cache" isn't really a cache. Nothing is physically placed at the coordinates.

It's like giving directions. Do I need to ask permission to post directions on a website telling how to find a park? No! Coordinates are simply directions to a place. If there is nothing physically placed there - a "cache" - then I don't see why permission is required.

I certainly have nothing against virtuals. I've found over 100 of them. I just think the bickering in the other thread about who should "own" a set of coordinates is silly.

April 29, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Team BooneDog:
I am assuming of course that everyone would have enough common sense to not place a virtual in some kind of fragile enviroment that is against the park/forest rules to be in the first place.

People are allowed to place physical caches in the one park I'm speaking of. But we ask to be sure we're not in a sensitive area. Not all sensitive areas are marked. Except for the caches, there wouldn't normally be traffic in those particular areas anyway. The same could possibly be true for virtuals.

BrianSnat is probably right. Wonder how I could get this thread deleted? Sigh. I should keep reading and keep my opinions to myself.

Cheval

To finish is to win. www.aerc.org

April 29, 2003

the way i look at it is you dont need permission to broadcast the coordinates but rather to place something on the land. that is why you wouldnt need permission to have a virtual but a traditional you would.

'Get to the point---speak English!!!!'

1.6k · April 29, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Cheval:
Sigh. I should keep reading and keep my opinions to myself.

Not at all. All opinions are welcome, even if some try to belittle you. (I've been guilty of that at times.)

Personally, I feel a little different than the consensus here in that while virtuals mostly don't need permission, posting them should be done with care.

Here's what I mean, if the virt is in a park that absolutely forbids physicals one whould be able to post a virt and have the hunter collect answers at various kiosks. No problem, it's nothing more than any visitor would do.

On the other hand, the virt is some obscure piece of machinery in an isolated part of the park with only service roads for access, then no I don't think that should be posted.

In short, the only virts that can/should be posted without permission are the ones that people can freely get to anyway. The very second they have to set foot off the beaten path--the path the managers have made for you--then it's not okay.

CR

April 29, 2003

The park system that Cheval is talking about is in Nashville, Tennessee there are 106 parks in the systems containing over 10,237 in acreage. ( That great for a mostly urban area )

The park administrators want to know of every caches location before it is placed, to insure that its not in or where the cacher will have to pass through it to get to the container. Approximately 3,000 acres are in State and Federal protected areas, the average cacher does not know where these are at.

I strongly believe that this needs to be done so that My grandchildren will be able to enjoy and visit the vast beauty that all the parks and greenways have to offer.

If you feel different, I am sorry, but you will not place a cache in these parks and if you do I have to go take it out . Its not that I like doing it but it has to be done to keep our best foot forward for geocaching in Nashville, and our State Parks

Virtual caches are no allowed without a permit either because of the same concerns, people looking and doing the bumblebee dance. Lets say in a wetlands looking for the answer.

JOE

April 29, 2003

quote:

If you feel different, I am sorry, but you will not place a cache in these parks and if you do I have to go take it out . Its not that I like doing it but it has to be done to keep our best foot forward for geocaching in Nashville, and our State Parks

How do you take out a Virt?

Coyote Fan

April 29, 2003

Sorry, I don't know how to markwell

JoGPS says "The park administrators want to know of every caches location before it is placed, to insure that its not in or where the cacher will have to pass through it to get to the container. Approximately 3,000 acres are in State and Federal protected areas, the average cacher does not know where these are at"

If the cacher doesn't know where these area's are, that means that no one in the park knows where they are either, so how do you keep people from wandering into these area's on a day to day basis in the first place.

When you see the light at the end of the tunnel, make sure it's not a train coming at you

April 29, 2003

How do you take out a Virt?

Easy you email one of the approvers and ask, and tell them why you want it archived and they have always done what a park ask them to , especially if it’s the right thing.

If the cacher doesn't know where these area's are, that means that no one in the park knows where they are either, so how do you keep people from wandering into these area's on a day to day basis in the first place.

You are able to place caches in areas that are OK to go into. In a lot of places its OK to leave the trail and others it not. I guarantee you that every park person in charge of geocaching knows where these areas are.

Regardless weather its in a park or some other type of public place it always best to just ask permission

JOE

38.2k · April 29, 2003

.

[This message was edited by BrianSnat on April 29, 2003 at 06:49 PM.]

38.2k · April 29, 2003

quote:
If you feel different, I am sorry, but you will not place a cache in these parks and if you do I have to go take it out

Great, just what we need...self appointed cache cops.

I think an inappropriately placed cache should be brought to the attention of the owner. If the owner doesn't address it, then this website should be notified. We don't need a bunch of self-righteous, vigilantes running around and stealing those caches they deem inappropriate.

"It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues" -Abraham Lincoln

[This message was edited by BrianSnat on April 29, 2003 at 06:54 PM.]

April 29, 2003

Great, just what we need...self appointed cache cops.

Actually the park has me do it as part on our agreement for over a year and a half now. If the cache owner had asked permission there would not be a need to ask anyone to take a cache out.

Do you always have to be negative about almost everything

JOE

1.1k · April 29, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:
I think a inappropriately placed cache should be brought to the attention of the owner. If the owner doesn't address it, then this website should be notified.

Amen, though this discussion seems to ping pong between the physical and the virtual. Not sure if y'all were discussing vigilantes running around removing virtual caches.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

9.4k · April 29, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Cheval:
People are allowed to place physical caches in the one park I'm speaking of. But we ask to be sure we're not in a sensitive area. Not all sensitive areas are marked. Except for the caches, there wouldn't normally be traffic in those particular areas anyway. The same could possibly be true for virtuals.

If these areas are not marked, then both Geocachers and others are allowed to go there. Making a policy of no virtuals in this area that is not marked discriminates against cachers only. How can you enforce banning a cacher when you don't ban a hiker that happens to have a GPS?

April 29, 2003

I think Jeremy can remember this and I did not explain this very well. The first couple of times the park tried to contact the cache owners with no reply and contacted Jeremy and asked that they be archived and they were ,then I was asked to go get them and I did, but not till damage was done to the areas in question.

Since them the cache owner was still contacted first by me but I would only wait a week before posting on their page that the cache had to be removed because they either did not ask permission or it was in a bad place. For some reason the cache owners were not real keen on talking to the park about this but they would talk to me and they would usually archive it themselves but would not go and get the cache These are three of several that the park had a problem with, GC45F, GC45E, GC238C . I know I came on a little strong in the above post, but I was just trying to get my point across Just Ask Permission.

On the point on virtual cache topic , there are places inside the park that are way off trail that no one is allowed to go without park personal, these are places that you just do not wander into but have to be looking for just the find right place to hide a cache we have all done that me included. At one of there parks, they and only them in the southern US have a tree that is the only one like it of its kind in the south and you are not allowed to go there with out some one from that park.

I have given several presentation at park mangers meeting, state convention, and for various park systems on geocaching and how it can bring in more visitors per year without adding any services or personal, and they can add programs around geocaching in there individual parks and nature areas. I have been told many times by my peers in the parks and by fellow cachers that I am doing a good job, but outside of Tennessee it seems I get bashed a lot for it.

As far as being the cache police or self appointed cache cop I am far from it, just ask any approver , I have had more caches denied than most cachers have placed.

It looks like I have ruffled a lot of feathers here just trying to get my point across Just Ask Permission and if that what it takes for cachers to start working with our keepers of the land so be it.

If most of you have been following the forums, every week or so there’s a post that XXXX has pulled caches from there park or nature area and it can usually be traced back to someone just not asking.

JOE

I hope I am done I hate to type , so flame on or not

5.9k · April 29, 2003

I asked once.

I'm not likely to ever do so again.

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

April 30, 2003

quote:
On the point on virtual cache topic , there are places inside the park that are way off trail that no one is allowed to go without park personal, these are places that you just do not wander into but have to be looking for just the find right place to hide a cache we have all done that me included. At one of there parks, they and only them in the southern US have a tree that is the only one like it of its kind in the south and you are not allowed to go there with out some one from that park.

This is by far an exception! Are there fences around this "sensitive" area? Are there signs denoting this area? How does one know they're not where they're supposed to be? If it's not separated by a fence or a sign, it's open to the public. I would safely assume any part of a park that is open to the general public would be fine to post a virtual WITHOUT PERMISSION.

Land managers should be intelligent enough to understand the distinction between a traditional cache (container in park) and a virtual cache (NO container in park).

I'm not a fan of virtuals, because they're a dime a dozen, but to each his/her own.

1.6k · April 30, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by OUTSID4EVR:
This is by far an exception! Are there fences around this "sensitive" area? Are there signs denoting this area? How does one know they're not where they're supposed to be? If it's not separated by a fence or a sign, it's open to the public.

No kidding! Most of the parks I've been to the woods are open to explore. But there is one park that comes to mind that it's a no-no to venture off trail, but it's very clearly stated. It has both sensitive flora and archaeological sites, not to mention a large population of water moccasins! There are signs that state this along with kiosks and pamphlets.

Plus, how hard is it to stop by the visitor's center and check out the ground rules? If in doubt, a simple question to someone in charge like "can we cut through the woods here" is all that is needed to know.

Still, if your virt is off trail you have the same maintenance chore of checking for impact as you do a physical.

CR

April 30, 2003

Land managers should be intelligent enough to understand the distinction between a traditional cache (container in park) and a virtual cache (NO container in park).

The land manager are intelligent and that’s why permission is so important even on virtuals.

All the trails in our natures area are well marked on Stay On The Trail but when a geocacher leaves the trail to find it the same damage is done and a new geo trail is formed just like it was a reg cache.

This something I have done on a cache hunt, the coordinates to the cache are 200 feet off trail and there are sign saying do not leave the trail, Your holding that gps’r and thinking well another geocacher placed it here so it must be OK and follow the arrow on in. If you have never done this you are a better person than me.

Yep the land managers are plenty intelligent

JOE

24.7k · April 30, 2003

If you do take the time to get permission for any kind of cache (locationless being kinda hard) kudos to you. It's bull**** when permission is slammed in any way shape or form.

=====================

Wherever you go there you are.

1.3k · April 30, 2003

Like it or not, park personell are in charge of the parks. Approching them for permission to place a virtual (which when explained properly) puts them on the spot. Any intelligent person can realise that a virtual is not a physical object, and we have every right to post coordinates wherever we choose. But the idea that we respect their authority enough to ask permission will go a long way towards gaining respect from them. By including them in the placement process, they become involved in caching, and are allowed to form an opinion based on the responsibility and cooperation of the cacher asking permission. To be suddenly suprised to find that a virtual cache has been in their park, under their nose for some time might make then feel defensive and cause them to develop negative opinions about our sport. No, we don't have to ask. But asking gives us credibility and the chance to educate land managers before someone else does.

"Searching with my good eye closed"

April 30, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by BloenCustoms:

To be suddenly suprised to find that a virtual cache has been in their park, under their nose for some time might make then feel defensive and cause them to develop negative opinions about our sport. No, we don't have to ask. But asking gives us credibility and the chance to educate land managers before someone else does.

How is listing a set of coordinates here (or anywhere for that matter) any different from a person creating a website somewhere telling visitors about 'cool places' in various parks?

I'll readily grant that common sense is still necessary - don't give coordinates for a geyser well off the boardwalk in Yellowstone and ask searchers to go there and report on what the feature is - but if the directions lead to a sign with that info, say, what's the concern?

Ron/yumitori

1.3k · April 30, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by yumitori:
How is listing a set of coordinates here (or anywhere for that matter) any different from a person creating a website somewhere telling visitors about 'cool places' in various parks?

I'll readily grant that common sense is still necessary - don't give coordinates for a geyser well off the boardwalk in Yellowstone and ask searchers to go there and report on what the feature is - but if the directions lead to a sign with that info, say, what's the concern?

Ron/yumitori

I'm in agreement there. The point I was making is that although permission for virtuals isn't necessary, we should ask in order to avoid ruffling the feathers of those in a position to adversly affect the sport. Human nature could cause some arrogant person to become very upset if they find out about something going on "behind their back". Better to make them feel like they have some control (wheter or not they actually do), and thereby avoid conflict.

"Searching with my good eye closed"

April 30, 2003

quote:
All the trails in our natures area are well marked on Stay On The Trail but when a geocacher leaves the trail to find it the same damage is done and a new geo trail is formed just like it was a reg cache.

So ANYONE who goes off trail is violating the rules. This clarifies your earlier post in which it was implied that there are areas of the park that are off limits, but are not designated. I now have a more complete understanding.

Geocachers must remember to follow the rules that are in place for a particular park when placing and finding caches. Common sense...

quote:
If you do take the time to get permission for any kind of cache (locationless being kinda hard) kudos to you. It's bull**** when permission is slammed in any way shape or form.

I don't see any "slamming" of permission. No permission is needed to tell someone about a cool place of interest (place a virtual cache), if it is open to the general public. If a container is placed in a park, ask permission.

quote:
I'm in agreement there. The point I was making is that although permission for virtuals isn't necessary, we should ask in order to avoid ruffling the feathers of those in a position to adversly affect the sport. Human nature could cause some arrogant person to become very upset if they find out about something going on "behind their back". Better to make them feel like they have some control (wheter or not they actually do), and thereby avoid conflict.

I see your point here. I have a problem with using the term "asking permission" in this case. I think opening a dialogue with land managers when "placing" a virtual cache is admirable (and should be encouraged). Only the biggest A-hole land managers would have a problem with virtual caches placed in *public areas*. They would probably not "give permission" anyway. You can't avoid conflict with some types of people anyway. Just look at these forums!

9.1k · April 30, 2003

Recently, I had a great experience working with a State Park where there are now five new geocaches: four traditional and one virtual. (It probably helped that we had 62 volunteers show up for a CITO event at the park!)

First I explained all about the physical caches I wanted to place. The ranger was very helpful, telling me about a delicate plant area that was very close to one of the sites I had in mind, and also suggesting some other areas of the park with some truly evil terrain. I moved the one cache and it turned into a much better placement, and I used his suggested sites for two other caches.

AFTER we were all finished discussing the traditional caches, I brought up the subject of a virtual multicache that would take visitors to two points of historic interest in the park, both of which are high-traffic areas. I STATED that "we don't really need to fill out the permission form for this one, since there's no box, just a set of coordinates for people to go to in order to see the historic buildings. I just wanted to let you know it was being posted, and what a virtual cache was, so that you wouldn't be concerned if you saw it posted on the website."

The ranger nodded his head, and said "makes sense, sounds good."

And the virtual cache was APPROVED because the hider (not me) explained to the approver why a virt made sense at the particular locations chosen.

It's easy to do this right, if you have cooperative land managers like the folks I dealt with. I got permission for my regular caches, and did not set a precedent by asking about permission for a virtual cache, while still letting them know about it.

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

Some mornings, it just doesn't pay to chew through the leather straps. - Emo Phillips

April 30, 2003

Leprechauns: Thanks for sharing your story here. This might serve as an inspiration to other cachers as to a way to approach land managers.

Permission for Caches

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