The 2 Dogs Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 In this day and age of Mobile Telephones (I believe you Yanks call them Cellphones) it may not seem so relevant, but I was wondering if anyone uses 2 way radio while Geocaching. The mobile telephone coverage in Australian cities is great but once you get way from the civilisation and into the outback it's a very different story. We use CB radio to communicate. I am told that "UHF" CB is unique to our country but the compact size of these handheld units mean they are very convenient and easy to carry. For safety it's a sensible consideration especially if you are going into very remote or snakey territory. In some places I have cached you can travel for days without seeing another soul so it's great piece of mind. Hounddog Quote Link to comment
+Glenn Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 A few years ago the FCC, our frequency authority in the USA, assigned 14 frequencies (channels) in the UHF band for unlisenced use. We call it FRS (Family Radio Service). A little handheld unit using only 5 watts can get a little over 2 mile range. But I've found that buildings and forests greatly affect the range. FRS radio has really taken off with families. I've seen them used when shopping at Malls and other large shopping areas where it would be easy to get lost. Amusement Parks are also a popular place to use them. I remember a discussion here where someone desided on a Geocaching channel for FRS radios. A channel for geocachers to monitor when hunting caches. I cant remember the channel. - Lone Rangers Quote Link to comment
+Criminal Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 You forgot the decimal, it's .5 watts, or one half a watt, on FRS http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/ Quote Link to comment
Cache Canucks Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 There have indeed been several (lengthy) forum discussions with regard to the designation of a 'GeoCaching' FRS channel for use in both Canada and the U.S., the most recent of which you can find here (with links to the earlier discussions that led up to it). The eventual outcome was an FRS channel allocation (not to be confused with a formal 'FCC' allocation) appearing on the GeoCaching.com FAQ page (scroll down to the very bottom). Quote Link to comment
+SteveL Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 Does anyone know of a good site of reviews, or just a listing of specifications of FRS/GMRS units? I have a few FRS radios, and would like to get a couple GMRS radios (licensed, of course) for the extra range it can provide. For instance, Costco has a Motorola dual pack FRS/GMRS for $99(?), but the output on GMRS is only 1 watt, not much over FRS. The legal limit is 5 watts on GMRS, which (if I remember my math), is a 3dB difference – effectively double the power (not 10 times). I am looking for a pair of units that are at least 2 watts, but am getting sick of hunting down spec sheets – I can’t find anywhere on Garmin’s site what the power output of the RINO’s are – not even the manual lists it. Thanx! SteveL These are my opinions and only my opinions, unless you share them as well, which would make them our opinions, but I am not of the opinion that I can express your opinion as my opinion without your prior expression of said opinion, and then my re-utterance of that opinion would, in my opinion, be foolish unless I were expressing agreement to your opinion, and then it wouldn't be my opinion but your opinion to which I only agree. Quote Link to comment
+benjamin921 Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 Rino .5 and 1 and this is if they are up to par. I have read (elsewhere) that someone did a test and it was only pushing .2 watts of the FRS side. Quote Link to comment
Cache Canucks Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 quote:Originally posted by SteveL:"...Does anyone know of a good site of reviews, or just a listing of specifications of FRS/GMRS units?..." The 'Customer Reviews' on 'Amazon.com' can often be quite helpful from a 'real world' point of view. Just do an 'All Products' search on Amazon for 'FRS' (or 'GMRS', if that's your pleasure), pick the radio that you're interested in from the search results, then - once you've navigated to that radio's page - click on 'Customer Reviews'. Quote Link to comment
+Sissy-n-CR Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 3dB is a factor of 2 10dB is a factor of 10 With only those two figures you can calculate any difference in power. CR Quote Link to comment
+LoneHowler Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 GRMS is currently illegal in Canada. So we had to wait a while before the Rinos came here. when they did I snached up one realy quickly. the Rinos for those who don't know of them are GPS FRS combined http://www.garmin.com/products/rino/# mine a 120 More to see, More to do Quote Link to comment
+Dave_W6DPS Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 You might want to look through the posts. Australia doesn't have as many hams (or anything else) per hectare as the US, but there are quite a few and they are very active. There are not a lot of repeaters (retransmission stations to extend the range of hand-held ham transmitters) in the outback, but there are other options. If I can hear a fellow in Mt Barker, West Australia, from my car in southern California, I would think you could reach someone around your location. It took a mobile 10 meter rig, magnetic mount antenna, and 25 watts for my contact with "down under" last week. The record for backpacker to backpacker ham radio contacts was recently set when a hiker in California confirmed a two-way contact with a hiker in New Zealand. I don't know how difficult it is to get a license in Australia, but something you might want to think about. I wouldn't go hiking or geocaching without a hand-held transciever. My two cents, refunds available on request (US funds only). Dave_W6DPS Quote Link to comment
Cache Canucks Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Dave_W6DPS:"...Australia doesn't have as many hams (or anything else) per hectare as the US..." Really...? I've never been there myself, but I'll bet there's probably a few things that Australia has 'as many' (in some cases more) of per hectare than the U.S.. Koala bears, kangaroos, aboriginees, Qantas jets and possibly even sheep come quickly to mind (someone from down-under help me out here!)... [This message was edited by Cache Canucks on January 23, 2003 at 11:54 AM.] Quote Link to comment
boydg Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 FRS Channel 2 is the primary channel, Ch 12 is the alternate. BTW, isn't "Lone Rangers" an oxymoron, at least as it applies to a Geocaching team? Quote Link to comment
+elmo-fried Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 quote:Originally posted by El Oso:FRS Channel 2 is the primary channel, Ch 12 is the alternate. I just picked up a pair of Motorola T6400MX's at Costco ($99, but I had a $83 Costco "Customer Reward" Certificate that was burning a hole in my pocket). The paperwork with these units state: "when operating on Channels 1 - 7 or 15 -22, this radio is using GMRS frequencies." Is this accurate? I though 1-7 was FRS/GMRS, 8-14 were FRS, and 15-22 were GMRS. If Channels 1 - 7 on my unit can only use GMRS, I'm assuming this means I cannot use it until licensed (lame). Is anyone familiar with these units? I'm planning to kick out the $75 and get licensed anyway, but I'm just curious about the channel ranges. Also, if in fact this unit can only transmit on Channels 1 -7 with GMRS, would an FRS-only unit be able to work with it? Jason Roysdon jason.roysdon.net Quote Link to comment
+elmo-fried Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 quote:Originally posted by jroysdon: quote:Originally posted by El Oso:FRS Channel 2 is the primary channel, Ch 12 is the alternate. I just picked up a pair of Motorola T6400MX's at Costco ($99, but I had a $83 Costco "Customer Reward" Certificate that was burning a hole in my pocket). The paperwork with these units state: "when operating on Channels 1 - 7 or 15 -22, this radio is using GMRS frequencies." Is this accurate? I though 1-7 was FRS/GMRS, 8-14 were FRS, and 15-22 were GMRS. If Channels 1 - 7 on my unit can only use GMRS, I'm assuming this means I cannot use it until licensed (lame). Is anyone familiar with these units? I'm planning to kick out the $75 and get licensed anyway, but I'm just curious about the channel ranges. Also, if in fact this unit can only transmit on Channels 1 -7 with GMRS, would an FRS-only unit be able to work with it? Jason Roysdon http://jason.roysdon.net/ In the User's Guide I found the following: "You can talk to FRS radios on channels 1-14. Remember that the FRS radios operate on 0.5 watt of transmit power. On channels 1-7, the T6400 operates at 1 watt." Sounds like it's illegal to transmit with this unit on Channels 1 - 7 (in addition to 15 - 22, of course) without a GMRS license (of course you could always listen). I don't know why they didn't have a GRMS enable/disable feature on these units. Basically, you have to get a GMRS license to use half of the FRS channels on this model. Also, this unit is practically useless in Canada until GMRS is allowed. Jason Roysdon jason.roysdon.net [This message was edited by jroysdon on January 24, 2003 at 02:07 AM.] Quote Link to comment
boydg Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 Good points on the T6400, which coincidentally I bought several months ago. Ran out (well, logged on, actually) and got my GMRS license immediately (WPVS546), so I've never thought about this "shortcoming" at all. I guess it depends on your perspective. But I dream of the day I "grow up" and become a Ham! Quote Link to comment
+Desert_Warrior Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 Power x 2, or an increase os 3dB, is the lowest detectable change to an average user. It will get comments like "I think this is a bit better, but I really can't tell" or things like that. It takes an increase of 6dB, or power x 4, to make a noticable difference. For instance, a 100 watt radio needs a 400 watt amplifier to make an appreciable difference. OTOH, you need to remember you are also increasing HEAT, the enemy of modern electronics. This is why I am always so amused when a CBer tells me he tweaked his 4 watt CB radio to 5.5 watts. His un-noticable 1dB increase in signal is not worth the 25-% increase in final heating. BTW, if you are talking handheld radios, high-power has another trouble too. Battery life. But this is another thread. Mike. Desert_Warrior (aka KD9KC). El Paso, Texas. Citizens of this land may own guns. Not to threaten their neighbors, but to ensure themselves of liberty and freedom. They are not assault weapons anymore... they are HOMELAND DEFENSE WEAPONS! Quote Link to comment
+creagerstonefamily Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 ...for the GMRS license every five years, you take a really simple test and could put that money towards an almost infinitely more useful ham radio. 1W?? BAH! KC0ERG Quote Link to comment
+SteveL Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Desert_Warrior:Power x 2, or an increase os 3dB, is the lowest detectable change to an average user. It will get comments like "I think this is a bit better, but I really can't tell" or things like that. It takes an increase of 6dB, or power x 4, to make a noticable difference. I grew up around two-way communications gear – RCA (TacTec), Motorola, GE, Maxon - my dad was selling the stuff to police, taxis, news crews, construction, etc. He still owns a couple of repeaters in the NY area. I remember keying up a repeater on the Empire State building from 25 miles away with nothing more than ~100mW of RF out of a Cushman test set (the spectrum analyzer was much fun!) with the proper CTCSS frequency AND a yagi pointed in the general direction. There was not much in the way, and the Empire State building was, at the time, the second largest building in Manhattan. I used many portables (walkie-talkie, but nobody called them that) while growing up, and I know that 5w will punch through more foliage, walls, etc. than 1 watt – it is very noticeable. Most of the time, 1 watt was fine, but it was nice to be able to flip a switch and get 4 or 5 watts to get a message through. It would be nice to find a FRS/GRMS radio with a 1w/4w switch. Anyone out there ever build a GRMS repeater using two handhelds? A lead acid battery, two radios, maybe a duplexer could all fit in a 50cal ammo can… SteveL These are my opinions and only my opinions, unless you share them as well, which would make them our opinions, but I am not of the opinion that I can express your opinion as my opinion without your prior expression of said opinion, and then my re-utterance of that opinion would, in my opinion, be foolish unless I were expressing agreement to your opinion, and then it wouldn't be my opinion but your opinion to which I only agree. [This message was edited by SteveL on January 24, 2003 at 09:04 AM.] Quote Link to comment
boydg Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 quote:Originally posted by CreagerStone Family:...for the GMRS license every five years, you take a really simple test and could put that money towards an _almost infinitely more useful_ ham radio. 1W?? BAH! KC0ERG What a coincidence! I was just speaking with Desert Warrior about this last night. I'm hoping to find some local Hams to provide tips and insight, and hopefully communicate with after I get my own Technician license. But we digress... Quote Link to comment
+Poindexter Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Desert_Warrior:Power x 2, or an increase os 3dB, is the lowest detectable change to an average user. It will get comments like "I think this is a bit better, but I really can't tell" or things like that. It takes an increase of 6dB, or power x 4, to make a noticable difference. This "rule" only applies to signals that are considerably above the noise level. With signal levels at the noise level where you can detect someone talking but can't "copy", an increase of only 1db will make a significant difference. The primary consideration in VHF/UHF range is antenna height. Some folks did some tests with FRS radios from the mountain tops in North Carolina and could clearly communicate up to 123 miles with .5W of power. With my ham radio on 1W power, I can communicate via amateur satellites that are over 200 miles away. One problem with FRS radios is that the antenna that comes with it is not very effecient. Even the antenna's that come with handheld ham radios are "crap" and you can significantly improve your range with a better antenna which are readily available. I'm not all that familiar with FRS radios, but the one I have does not have a removable antenna. Another problem with FRS radios is that they are UHF and the signals are attenuated by trees, leaves, buildings etc. much more so that VHF. The 2 meter ham band is in the VHF range and is a much better option than FRS if your primary consideration is long range. Poindexter N3EF Quote Link to comment
+Desert_Warrior Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 quote:Originally posted by El Oso:What a coincidence! I was just speaking with Desert Warrior about this last night. And I hope you got my reply - and found it useful. Mike. Desert_Warrior (aka KD9KC). El Paso, Texas. Citizens of this land may own guns. Not to threaten their neighbors, but to ensure themselves of liberty and freedom. They are not assault weapons anymore... they are HOMELAND DEFENSE WEAPONS! Quote Link to comment
boydg Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 Yes I did, and thank you very much. I went to respond to your email yesterday, but it appears that the latest Internet disruption has taken out the host for my web site/email server, so I'm currently incommunicado. For email, at least. Quote Link to comment
+Yanke Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 My cell phone is useless when I'm geocaching so I started carrying a FRS radio. I was wondering though, how many people are using them. I don't hear much chatter. What if a lone cacher like me needs help? Would a portable CB be a better choice in an emergency situation? The earth does not belong to us. We belong to the earth. Quote Link to comment
Cache Canucks Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Yanke:"...What if a lone cacher like me needs help? Would a portable CB be a better choice in an emergency situation?..." I wouldn't be relying on FRS, GMRS or CB for making a call for help (not if you want a better than 50/50 chance of someone actually hearing you and being in a position to arrange for assistance). If you frequently use areas outside of cellular coverage and are concerned about having something on hand for emergency communications, your best bet is to get your amateur radio ticket and carry a handheld that works on one or more of the Ham bands. The radio equipment is more expensive (although still reasonable), but if you're that concerned about your safety, it's worth the price. A few years ago, I was part of a hiking expedition that trekked along the northeast shore of Lake Superior. The hiking party used a small 2m amateur handheld to keep in regular contact with our base camp throughout the 3 day hike (at times, over distances of more than 30kms). Although this allowed those who manned the base camp to track the progress of the hiking party, the main purpose of the 'link by radio' was safety. On another hiking trip (this one on the West Coast Trail, along the southwest coast of Vancouver Island), our group carried a marine band handheld for use in the event of an emergency. What you choose will largely be governed by who it is you expect to be heard by. Whatever the case, make sure that you have the proper operating certificate/licence to use the radio equipment that you're carrying. Quote Link to comment
FullOn Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 El Oso, I just recently followed the same path you're on (bought the 6400's from Costco, got my GMRS license, decided to look into ham radio). Well, I decided to try the Tech test for ham and passed it with no problems. I'm currently shopping for my first radio (probably go with the Yaesu VX-5R - nice tri-bander they just dropped the price on - $205.00). IMHO, getting the tech license is certainly worth it if you have any interest in Ham. It's really easy to pass and it opens up many possiblities. Good luck! "I thought you said this was a quick find!" - My wife Quote Link to comment
+creagerstonefamily Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 I challenge everyone reading this message who does not have their ticket to visit AA9PW's site and take a sample Technician's Test. You will probably be surprised at how well you do. That site and the $12 book by Gordon West that lists ALL of the possible questions and explains the answers were all that was required for me to pass the Tech test the first time using no other information sources. I believe I missed a total of three questions and I don't have an extensive electronics background. I also passed my General written and code the first time using the same book (for General, obviously) and Codequick 2000 software. The Extra test that I was encouraged to take "just for fun" after I got General, however, kicked my butt in a most heinous method. So, there you go. Do it.... ...unless you're chicken or something... :-) Quote Link to comment
+Poindexter Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 The test question pools and answers are freely available on the ARRL web site at http://www.arrl.org/arrlvec/pools.html While I don't recommend just memorizing them, they are useful for knowing what to study for. Poindexter N3EF Quote Link to comment
boydg Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 After taking a few practice tests at the QRZ web site, I think I could probably pass the test for Technician. I've also downloaded the Koch CW Trainer from G4FON's site, which seems to be a very good approach to learning Morse code for the General license. The only thing holding me back is the prospect of yet another money pit to throw all my spare cash (and then some) into. ~ Boyd Quote Link to comment
Micqn Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Just last night I walked to a cache and I wish I would have brought my two way talkies. I was walking in mud up to my ankles. I told my wife that I could to the 2 miles rountrip in about 30 minutes but it took about 1 hour, she was going ballistic. I guess I was turned into bear food or something. Anyway, good idea to bring some kind of communication device! I hope this has to do with the topic! Happy. Hunting. Quote Link to comment
Cache Canucks Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 quote:Originally posted by '68 Dodger:"...Just last night I walked to a cache and I wish I would have brought my two way talkies..." I think your post serves as a good example of when a pair of FRS radios would have been perfect. By design, this radio service is well suited for reliable short range (within a mile or two) communications between parties known to be monitoring a common frequency. This was the basic premiss of the FCC establishing the FRS in the first place and, by extension, our having adopted an FRS geocaching channel to be used while 'on the hunt'. I think that 'The 2 Dogs' concern was with regard to a means of communication when travelling in remote areas where "...you can travel for days without seeing another soul...". In that type of scenario, depending on a radio with limited range (FRS or 'UHF CB') for communicating with anyone other than members of your own party would be poorly advised ...especially where safety is an issue. Quote Link to comment
Micqn Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 If you weren't going to be seeing anyone in days I would probably recommend a good satellite phone and emergency beacon. That way you could call out or they can find your remains. You can't claim life insurance without a body. So I here. Happy. Hunting. Quote Link to comment
+EScout Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Here are some ways you can communicate with handheld radios while hiking. There are many places, even here in the Southern California Mountains where a cell phone does not reach, but I have never been to an area where I could not reach a ham repeater (most are open to all and free). In the Sierra mountains I have used a linked repeater system to reach my wife at home 300 miles away. In the local mountains, I can often reach home directly through one repeater, often 50 to 80 miles away. For pure coolness factor I demonstrate this to my Scouts in the summer: Using PocketSat on my Palm, I plot the satelites during that window from about 9:30 to 10:30 PM when it is dark, but they are reflecting the sun and visible. We then listen to the ham satelites with my handheld and sometimes make a contact. Seeing and hearing a satelite at the same time is even cool to some teenagers. God I love my gadgets. Anyway, they have made it easy to get a license: only one multiple choice test (used to be two). Handheld radios: one-band= about $100 to 150; two-band radio= $200 to 250; three-band radio= $250 to 300. Quote Link to comment
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