Cache Idea - Dumb or Not?

July 8, 2003

What do you think of this idea & will it get approved if it's liked?

I would like to configure sort of a puzzle cache. I would post a cache but one coordinate (prob. minutes) would be fictitious. I would clearly state this in the description. The real cache would have a really outrageous prize in it. Cachers would have to basically try all the permutations of that coord until they found they actual cache. Obviously some coords would be right out the door just by doing internet searches, private property, etc. Is this do-able? Would it be approved?

Wherever you go, there you are!

July 8, 2003

60 minutes is an awful long distance. Better be a fat ole cache (cash?) at the end for the first finder!

Maybe you could make other activities or riddles to discover the coordinates. That's how most puzzle caches I've seen work. Though, I tend to skip puzzle caches. Good luck,

-Vb

Edit: I just realized that probably sounded pretty condescending, especially from someone in the game for 3 months. Maybe you could narrow it down with regional clues about the area like the Magellan contest. The idea sounds cool, but you have to give people something to go on other than "somewhere between 0 and 60 minutes".

[This message was edited by Verboten on July 08, 2003 at 05:59 AM.]

July 8, 2003

Thanks for the 1st reply. Didn't sound condescending but thanks for the clarify.

I didn't want to do a typical clue/puzzle cache but did want to see if cachers would go for the idea of the unknown coord.

Obviously not everyone would be interested in the randomness involved in the find but I think it offers a good hunt. For once the coords are not an absolute & hunting this one may not neccessarily result in a definite find.

I envision cachers logging notes with what coords have been searched to narrow the consecutive searches. When first found the prize would be well worth it & then the cache will revert to a normal one.

I think the hunt/challenge would appeal to many (I hope).

Wherever you go, there you are!

2.1k · July 8, 2003

Sounds neat. Sounds like a lot of no finds though.

Wouldn't the approver have to know the actual coordinates of it, to approve it? And then they wouldn't be posted on the cache page?

I'll be looking on here to see what the approvers say. It does sound interesting.

Edit: Also wanted to add, I don't think it's a dumb idea. It may not work here, but it isn't dumb.

Brian

As long as you're going to think anyway, think big. -Donald Trump

5.3k · July 8, 2003

I think the problem the approvers would have is with the possibility of trespassing or people searching in inappropriate places. If you could post a range of coords that fell within one park, maybe they would go for it.

"Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand."

1.1k · July 8, 2003

Make it a mystery cache type, have the coordinates for the cache at the parking location of the park, and indicate that the cache is hidden slightly off trail within the park with no bushwhacking required. As long as you get permission for placing it I don't think the approvers would have any issues with approving it.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

5.9k · July 8, 2003

Stunod hit the nail on the head. You would first have to check on all the possibilities to ensure someone won't stray into private property or worse, Government installations. I’ll send you an idea I’m working on by email. It seems to have gotten favorable reviews in another forum area. I’m keeping it close until I get it going to prevent spoilage of the surprise for the locals here in WA.

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

July 8, 2003

Great idea running it through the forums first, Crusso.

As the guy who would actually make the decision on this cache, I think have to admit I would probably ask the other approvers and Groundspeak for input on this one, but I'm leaning toward no.

It does sound interesting, but as you pointed out yourself, there are several issues.

As Verboten mentioned, you are looking at a huge search area. The fact that many areas are on private property, dangerous, or illegal isn't going to stop some cachers from searching there. Not judging by the number of cache hides submitted that are on private property, dangerous, or illegal.

Without some sort of hint, I think it would be virtually impossible to find the cache. Look how long it often takes to find a cache when you only have a few hundred square feet. You're talking square miles of search area.

It seems like the cache as submitted is a one time only cache. "When first found the prize would be well worth it & then the cache will revert to a normal one." One time only caches are generally not approved.

The mention of it being a one time only cache with a great first prize makes it sound a lot like a contest, something Jeremy commented on just last night in this thread:

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):
I despise caches that involve a race to the prize, and will continue to discourage them. If you want to create an event cache and have a race there, fine.

Frankly it's ludicrous. If I place a cache anywhere in the US there is always someone at an advantage to arriving at that location first.

Don't expect the geocaching.com site to accomodate these kinds of caches.

If you like to watch people scramble for cash, join or watch a reality show.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

Perhaps this idea would be better suited as an off-site, private contest. You could announce it in the forums, and have people interested contact you. Then email all interested parties the cache description at the start of your contest. After it's been found, and the cache reverts to a traditional cache, it could be posted on geocaching.com.

edit: The boss beat me to it! There you go, that's why the approvers and Groundspeak discuss these things before approving or archiving them. If the cache was set up as Jeremy suggested, there would be no problem approving it.

I think however, that what Jeremy suggested would remove a significant challenge that Crusso had intended. So I guess the discussion is still open on is this approvable as initially suggested?

[This message was edited by NJ Admin on July 08, 2003 at 08:48 AM.]

2.1k · July 8, 2003

Y'all bringing up the point of searching square miles makes me envision the line of searchers looking for evidence or bodies. I can see it now, someone will gather up a hundred folks spread them out finger tip to finger tip, to start the hunt. Military and former military will know what i'm speaking of. Remember the trash pickup details? LOL

NJAdmin brought up some very great points as well as the others.

Brian

As long as you're going to think anyway, think big. -Donald Trump

July 8, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Woodsters Outdoors:
Wouldn't the approver have to know the actual coordinates of it, to approve it? And then they wouldn't be posted on the cache page?

Yes we would have to know the actual cache location. I would pass a cache like this onto another approver well outside the region at that point, since I am still a geocacher first, and would want to find the cache myself, fair and square.

20.7k · July 8, 2003

Consider the damage as random cachers stripmine an area 60" square.

July 8, 2003

My "Where is the Cache? is similar in concept except if you pay attention to the description, you don't have to actually go to all the permutations.

24.7k · July 8, 2003

If the price is large enough and if it will change into a regular cache when the challenge is over I think it's a cool idea.

However with so many combo's out there a hint of some type might be in order. Or depending on where you hide it etc. might not be needed.

4.1k · July 8, 2003

If you use a 1 minute (60 seconds) error in your coordinates then the area covered is still about 1 1/2 square miles to search. Out west here we have the open spaces for such a hunt. It would not be a popular choice in the summer heat of 100+ degrees!!!

With no hints I would think long an hard before deciding to try it.

Good luck on you endeavor.

Smile, make others wonder what you're up to!!!

July 8, 2003

Ok, I'm getting the main objections here:

1. Innapropriate locations - I would CLEARLY state that the cache is not hidden in any of these areas and hunting there would be a total waste of time. I assume that these coords could be sifted out by internet searches.

2.Jeremy's objections about a race type cache - The cache would still become a maintained normal cache. This would be no different than any normal cache where someone places a cool item for the first finder.

3. Coords at trail head type cache - nah, not quite where I'm going.

4. Exact coords given to admin - I would email exact coords to admin for approval w/o a problem but frankly I don't see the difference in this as opposed to posting coords of a trail head & having the cache somewhere else. How does admin know where that cache is actually located?

As I said, I envision cachers posting online to narrow down the coords till it's found. And again I would clearly warn against those places where cachers should not look so there would be absolutely no benefit to hunting on private property, military, etc as the cache would by design CLEARLY not be located there. I would clearly state guidelines for the places where the cache could be hidden. This itself would narrow the search area.

The way I see it a coord like 72 35.337 by -114 xx.675 would only give 60 possible coord choices, not a several hundred mile area as the minor coords would be exact. Most of those could be eliminated by internet map searches.

Not trying to be obstinant, just trying to find a way to make this work that's cool & yet acceptable to admin.

Wherever you go, there you are!

1.1k · July 8, 2003

ONLY 60 CHOICES! That's a lot especially since you will not have checked them all out. I wouldn't think of sending someone to a place I haven't been. Private property trespass is very likely to occur.

July 8, 2003

OK, !One More Time.......

Private property searches would be out since it wll be clearly posted THAT THE CACHE WILL NOT BE HIDDEN IN ANY PROHIBITED AREA!!!! THAT WOULD EXCLUDE THAT COORD FROM BEING A POSSIBLE SEARCH AREA!

QOUTE:

And again I would clearly warn against those places where cachers should not look so there would be absolutely no benefit to hunting on private property, military, etc as the cache would by design CLEARLY not be located there. I would clearly state guidelines for the places where the cache could be hidden. This itself would narrow the search area.

Wherever you go, there you are!

2.6k · July 8, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Crusso:
OK, !_One More Time..._....

Private property searches would be out since it wll be clearly posted THAT THE CACHE WILL NOT BE HIDDEN IN ANY PROHIBITED AREA!!!! THAT WOULD EXCLUDE THAT COORD FROM BEING A POSSIBLE SEARCH AREA!And again I would clearly warn against those places where cachers should not look so there would be absolutely no benefit to hunting on private property, military, etc as the cache would by design CLEARLY not be located there. I would clearly state guidelines for the places where the cache could be hidden.

There is nothing clear about it. Humans can not take directions.

No matter how you address the off limits areas there will be people searching there. There are many thread arguments about cachers not reading the cache page.

I have to give verbal directions to control vehicle traffic. I have refined it over the past six years. I had to come to the conclusion that some people can not take directions. Just under half can not understand the simplest directions. Not to bad mouth these people. However you can not extend your expectations on others. No matter how plainly simple or easy it may seam to you.

Why don't you take the simple route. Confine your coordinates to a specific park boundaries. So that there is no question of the accessibility to the locations you post.

Pepper playing nice!

Mokita!

1.1k · July 8, 2003

I think that an internet search wouldn't do it. If you were to phyically check out all possible locations and post those which are inappropriate, then I say go for it!

You sound like a cacher who puts a lot of effert into your caches. If I am ever in the area I will check some of yours out.

Happy Geocaching!

July 8, 2003

Leatherman,

Ure point is well taken as I work at an airport & also have to give crowd control directions all day long. As soon as I make an announcement, the VERY NEXT person on line will ask me if they have to in fact do what I just announced for them to do!

However, I like to think that Geocachers as a group are a more responsible, more literate group as a whole. Any cacher "dumb" enough to look for a cache on private property will probably not be able to figure out how to do this cache anyway since the actuall coord posted on the web page will not be a real coordinate. I will however make sure that the dummy coord is in a "ok to cache in" area.

Wherever you go, there you are!

July 8, 2003

One problem is, How do you tell public from private land? That may sound silly, but wait...

Here in California where I hunt caches some private land is obvious (like my backyard). Some private land is not obvious, you can walk from National Forest land to private land with no fence or signs or anything. Maybe these people don't care if hikers are on their land, I don't know. Maybe they are hunters waiting for more challenging prey.

On the flip side, there are geocaches on public BLM land that has barbed wire fence (the government bought the land to allow better access to the American River. It is a great cache and if it wasn't for geocaching I would not have know it was public land. The cache webpage was very clear about the current ownership and had links explaining the history.

Bottom line, without meaning to, your cache idea might be luring people to the Big Buck Hunting Club lands or something like that.

2.6k · July 8, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Crusso:
However, I like to think that Geocachers as a group are a more responsible, more literate group as a whole.

I would love to take this position. However I have to accept my default, because I am guilty of not reading the cache page also. I even whined about the terrain of a cache being to rough on my bare legs. Even though it was a three star rating.

So my only defense is that we can all be dumb at times.

Pepper playing nice!

Mokita!

July 8, 2003

Ok, I've got it. Since I'm setting up the cache I will personally (daunting task ahead) check out all possible coords & eliminate the ones that are not "cacheable" & post these. I still think that with only 60 possibilities & some landing in impossible places that this won't be that difficult.

Wherever you go, there you are!

July 8, 2003

Ok After taking a long shower & pondering this thread my question is this:

How does my proposal differ from a puzzle cache where the cacher has to do a mathematical or other problem to fill in coordinates?

Unless he answers every question correctly the chance is that he will end up somewhere other than intended. Yet these caches are approved.

At least with my cache only one coord is missing. These type caches have the potential for sending someone to far more than 60 alternate locations. Are you telling me that every puzzle cache has every single permutation of answers checked to be sure they are all on legitimate caching sites? I doubt it.

Again, not trying to be a B-buster, just trying to get this approved without doing an end run around admin.

Wherever you go, there you are!

July 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Crusso:
4. Exact coords given to admin - I would email exact coords to admin for approval w/o a problem but frankly I don't see the difference in this as opposed to posting coords of a trail head & having the cache somewhere else. How does admin know where that cache is actually located?

We will know because you will tell us. We need the actual location of the cache to ensure it meets the guidelines. If you just tell me the trailhead, how will we know that the cache isn't in the middle of RR tracks, or in a National Park or 5ft from an existing cache?

quote:
Originally posted by Crusso:
Ok After taking a long shower & pondering this thread my question is this:

How does my proposal differ from a puzzle cache where the cacher has to do a mathematical or other problem to fill in coordinates?

Unless he answers every question correctly the chance is that he will end up somewhere other than intended. Yet these caches are approved.

At least with my cache only one coord is missing. These type caches have the potential for sending someone to far more than 60 alternate locations. Are you telling me that every puzzle cache has every single permutation of answers checked to be sure they are all on legitimate caching sites? I doubt it.

Again, not trying to be a B-buster, just trying to get this approved without doing an end run around admin.

There is a 50 mile difference between this and any any recently approved puzzle cache. We ask that the bogus waypoint be within 1 mile of the actual cache, and preferably is the entrance or parking coordinates. This puts the hider in the right area, yet still forces them to solve the puzzle to find the cache.

By using bogus minutes of one coordinate, the cache could actually be over 50 miles from the posted coordinates, Where you live, 50 miles could put the cache in 4 different states.

This means your cache may very well show up as local for people it really isn't, but people who are local to it might never even notice, since the listing may show in a different state, or be buried 20 pages down in the nearest cache list.

With a puzzle cache, since you know where the general area is, you can usually tell right away if you solved the puzzle wrong. If your solution is outside the park, or 2 miles away from the posted coordinates, you made a mistake. No need to look. With what you propose, up to 60 locations are going to be trampled and overturned by geocachers looking for something that isn't there in 59 of the locations. Since they don't know if they are in the proper spot or not, and since they may have to drive several hrs to return if they missed it, you can be sure they are leaving no stone unturned. You mentioned you envisioned people working together, posting what spots didn't yield a cache. If they were just looking for a logbook and a few broken mctoys, I might agree. Since there will be a valuable prize for the first finder however, it would not be in their best interests to share this info with other players. Some may even post deliberate misinformation to slow the other players down.

So every player is going to have to trash 500 square feet at up to 60 different waypoints if they want to win.

1.6k · July 9, 2003

I have hidden and hunted this type of cache.

July 9, 2003

Ok, I'm seeing the point. THe last post by admin pretty much clearified it....

However (knew there had to be one, right?)

In a previous post Admin wrote:

-----------------------------------------

Quote: "Perhaps this idea would be better suited as an off-site, private contest. You could announce it in the forums, and have people interested contact you. Then email all interested parties the cache description at the start of your contest. After it's been found, and the cache reverts to a traditional cache, it could be posted on geocaching.com."

---------------------------------------------

Ok, so hope is alive after all.

Now, Can I do as suggested & then allow anyone that found it as a private contest to loag it as a find once it was posted as a true cache on Geocaching??

Wherever you go, there you are!

2.1k · July 9, 2003

I wouldn't see why not....you just have to let them know once it's gone active in the geocaching system.

Brian

As long as you're going to think anyway, think big. -Donald Trump

5.7k · July 9, 2003

There was a puzzle cache that was pretty much exactly as you stated in our area. It was relatively well received. Basically, we were given all the digits to the coords of the cache all jumbled up, and were told that the cache was in X park. So we had to try all the permutations that would result in coords in the park boundary, and then started looking at locations that were not far off trail. We were able to narrow it down to about 10 likely locations, and eventually found the cache. You might throw in a clue such as "30 feet off a main trail" or something like that.

--Marky

"All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer with a backlit GPSr"

5.7k · July 9, 2003

One other idea: Make this an event cache, where people interested show up with their laptops at some coffee shop near the park the cache is located in, you give them the jumbled coords, tell them the park it's in and then let them have at it. Then, once it's found, just sumbit the cache as a standard cache with the actual coordinates to geocaching.com and they can log the event cache and the standard cache.

This way, it doesn't have to be a private cache, and people not interested in solving the puzzle can still show up and chat and enjoy the antics.

--Marky

"All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer with a backlit GPSr"

6.4k · July 9, 2003

Cool, and right in my own back yard!

I think Marky's ideas are good, and from everything posted above, if he was to add "the cache is in XXX park and 30feet off a trail" there would be no problems getting it approved. The problem I see, is limiting the search to a park is not the same as searching the whole tri-state area, which is what I think crusso has in mind.

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

9.4k · July 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Marky:
There was a puzzle cache that was pretty much exactly as you stated in our area. It was relatively well received. Basically, we were given all the digits to the coords of the cache all jumbled up, and were told that the cache was in X park. So we had to try all the permutations that would result in coords in the park boundary, and then started looking at locations that were not far off trail. We were able to narrow it down to about 10 likely locations, and eventually found the cache. You might throw in a clue such as "30 feet off a main trail" or something like that.

That's a great idea! Mind if I do that here?

Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness

1k · July 11, 2003

I doubt that I personally would go after such a cache. How much time do you allocate to searching at each of these 60 possible locations before you decide to move on? Doing this one cache could take a person months!

I do think it would be a good idea for an event cache. People could form groups and split up the coordinates among themselves. You'd probably still want to limit it to coordinates that fall within a given park - then with a bit of brain power, they could automatically rule out several of the possibilities.

I have seen a cache that listed the coordinates as the parking lot for a park. Then in the description, it said ''the cache is located at one of these coordinates'' and listed 10 possibilities.

-Junglehair

I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.

July 13, 2003

quote:
The way I see it a coord like 72 35.337 by -114 xx.675 would only give 60 possible coord choices, not a several hundred mile area as the minor coords would be exact.

Wherever you go, there you are!

Wouldn't this put the 60 possible locations all in a straight line? If I'm right then it would be easy to eliminate the nonpossible locations, say if the line goes through a wal-mart parking lot. But, I agree with others that say you should put other clues and info in your description as you can't count on common since being common. Also, one could just start out somewhere on that line and fallow it to the cache. I personaly like the idea, sounds like fun to me. I think the puzzle caches are my ticket to getting the wife to play too. Besides, doesn't leaving open coords put some of the hunt back into the sport? (you may notice from my profile that I have no experience in geocaching, and my knowledge of the sport comes mostly from reading the FAQ's and the forums. I am mostly just a lurker here till I get back to my GPSr and normal civilizatoin, so I understand if my opinion isn't valid)

78Firedog

--?If Prometheus was worthy of the wrath of heaven for kindling the first fire upon earth, how ought all the gods honor the men who make it their professional business to put it out??-- John Godfrey Saxe, (American journalist, poet, and lecturer) circa 1850

[This message was edited by 78Firedog on July 13, 2003 at 01:44 PM.]

[This message was edited by 78Firedog on July 13, 2003 at 01:51 PM.]

July 13, 2003

78Firedog,

Thank you for seeing my point. I'm simply trying to introduce a little fun tweak to the standard "post a coord, find a cache".

I think I will post this, get the flack from admin, change it till it suits them, etc. I really think this could be a fun hide & again anyone that isn't up to the challenge doesn't have to attempt it!

Wherever you go, there you are!

July 14, 2003

Cool, but from what I understand, it might be quicker and easier to get with your local admin personel and work out all the bugs first then post it. But, as I said before, I am unexperienced in this field.

78Firedog

--?If Prometheus was worthy of the wrath of heaven for kindling the first fire upon earth, how ought all the gods honor the men who make it their professional business to put it out??-- John Godfrey Saxe, (American journalist, poet, and lecturer) circa 1850

Cache Idea - Dumb or Not?

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