Found/Not found rules?

[+Mudfrog]

Ive seen many discussions in the forums on this subject but ive never seen this question. I know that GeoCaching is a game, but even the simplest of games have rules, so I was wondering if anyone has ever suggested guidelines/rules for logging finds and no finds?

 

Some think that when you start a search for a cache and you dont find it in that search that you should log it as a not found, no excuses.

 

Some cant find it but think they will be back so they log a note or dont log anything.

 

Then there are some that have those really off the wall excuses for not logging a not found.

 

What im saying is that there are many ways of thinking so guidelines addressing this would seem appropriate to me. Sure there are going to be some gray areas, example being that maybe you cant complete a multicache in a day. For normal caches though,, maybe a rule or two wouldnt be a bad thing!

 

BTW, i dont think im taking our hobby too serious and i really dont care about anyone else's stats, but i'll admit that it kinda bugs me that i log a not found after not finding a cache. Another person searches, doesnt find, then posts a note or doesnt log anything until maybe after their 3rd search attempt days later, then they'll post the one log as a find... I know what ya'll are going to say, its just a game!

[+travisl]

See the dead horse I was beating here. In short, the rule seems to be ''if you signed the logbook, it's a find, and if you used your GPS to look for it at the zero point, and didn't sign the logbook, it's a not found.''

 

My personal rules are a bit different. If I can access the cache, or what's left of it, then it's a find. If I jorney with the specific intent to find a cache, and I don't, it's a not found (unless it's a multi I didn't have a high expectation of finding all parts of that day).

 

"Why don't you just ask somebody?"

"No, no. I've got a map. Don't worry about that."

[+briansnat]

My personal rule if I plug in the waypoint of the cache and hit GoTo and do not get to sign the logbook, then it is a not found. If I do it a 2nd and 3rd time, then I log 2 or 3 NotFounds.

 

Of course I'll state the reason I didn't find it; darkness, took a wrong trail, GPS batteries died, whatever...just so the cache owner doesn't start to think the cache may be missing.

 

Some think a not found is a black eye of sorts and are loathe to log them. I really don't understand this point of view at all.

 

"Life is a daring adventure, or it is nothing" - Helen Keller

[+travisl]

I like that. I didn't have a good way to tell if I'd begun a true journey for a hunt, but hitting ''Go to waypoint...'' really is that first time when I've decided to undertake the hunt. And it works for those times that I don't even get to the park, because I usually hit 'Go to' when I'm a few miles out.

 

Now... how would this work for a multi? My weak definition has to do with my expectation level of finding the final cache location.

 

Thanks, BrianSnat. You've helped me define a personal rule that I didn't even realize needed to be refined.

 

"Why don't you just ask somebody?"

"No, no. I've got a map. Don't worry about that."

[+Renegade Knight]

My rules.

 

If you find the cache, it's a find.

If you find the remnants of the cache it's a find.

If you CLEARLY find the hole where the cache should have been it's a find (I've never had clues good enough to do this in 160+ caches).

If you don't log it, or can't find the log to log it on paper, that's up to the cache owner. Logs get full and lost etc.

 

If you look for the cache and can't find it. It's a skunk.

If something happens and you are don't make it to where you can look, it's worth posting a note but it's not a skunk. A friend goes the other way on this. If he step out his front door to go geocaching and gets hit by a commet on his doorstep. It's a skunk.

 

I always log in the cache when there is a log, but I'm not into paper logs. I much prefere the computer logs. There are cachers who monitor this and delete people that are not on the paper logs. To each their own.

[+Mudfrog]

posted by travisl

quote:

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I like that. I didn't have a good way to tell if I'd begun a true journey for a hunt, but hitting ''Go to waypoint...'' really is that first time when I've decided to undertake the hunt. And it works for those times that I don't even get to the park, because I usually hit 'Go to' when I'm a few miles out.

 

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I only have a few months of GeoCaching experience under my belt but for me, punching GoTo and preceding in that general direction constitues the start of a search. If i find the cache then i get a smiley face and if for ANY reason i dont find it, then i give myself the dreaded frowny face!

 

But my question is, should we as a group adopt rules pertaining to this. Its not really all that big a deal but this would make logging more universal.

[+Jamie Z]

quote:

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Originally posted by Renegade Knight:

If you CLEARLY find the hole where the cache should have been it's a find (I've never had clues good enough to do this in 160+ caches).

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How can this be a find? If the cache is gone, you sure aren't able to find it. I guess I can't argue your personal find/no-find rules, but I just don't understand how you can comfortably log a find if you don't find the cache.

 

My find/no-find guidelines are the same as TravisL's and Mudfrog's. Once I hit the goto button and take a step toward the cache... a smiley or a frownie will be posted, depending on whether or not I found the cache.

 

Jamie

[+Web-ling]

If I find the cache and sign the logbook, it's a find.

 

If I open the cache and there is no logbook, it's a find. It's called geocaching, not geologging.

 

If I find a piece of the cache, and receive an email from the owner confirming that the piece I found is all that remains, it's a find.

 

Otherwise, it's a not found. Finding the hiding spot doesn't count if I don't find at least some physical portion of the cache.

 

Once I make an attempt to find the cache, a smiley or frownie will be posted. I don't necessarily define an "attempt" as hitting the GOTO button, because I usually attempt caches GPSr-less. If I get to the point where I'm looking for a place to park, it's either going to be a smiley or a frownie.

 

 

[This message was edited by Web-ling on August 29, 2002 at 04:59 PM.]

[+Jamie Z]

What I think I might start doing is logging a no-find on every cache that exists... because, well.. I haven't found them all.

 

 

Jamie

[RainbowTVP]

For us- if we make an actual attempt to find a cache and can't- we post a not found- this happened once (the cache was gone).

 

Well- we have gone round and round and then went home to sleep and came back the next day- but we didn't consider it a second attempt- we were just taking a break during our first attempt

 

We have set out to find a cache, but changed our minds for various reasons- usually, it is something like today- we have just done one or two caches, there is one more in the area that we decide to check out- we get to the start point, and find it is an hour walk, not counting searching, and we only have 45 minutes of daylight left... we decide to try another day.

 

Or we drive to the start point, and there is a thunder storm, or someone gets sick, etc- unless our failure has something to do with our inability to find a cache- we log a not found, but if we probably could have found it, had we put effort into it, then we don't log it.

 

IMO, we never *really* started the search... Now- if you have the opinion as some do, that as soon as you leave the house or punch in the coordinates you are "searching" then that changes things- I guess it all depends on where you think the "search" begins...

 

For me it has nothing to do with pride or avoiding a frownie... I just don't think anyone else would care that we were halfway up the trail when some started vomiting and we had to turn back (that was hypothetical- a little vomitting would never turn us back from a cache attempt )... It just seems irrelevant to me... Now, if we checked under every rock and log within 1000 feet of the coordinates- that seems like important information.

 

Maybe this question needs to be answered- what is the *reason* for having a "not found" option- I thought it was so that 1) other searchers can be aware of possible difficulties and allow extra time or otherwise avoid our mistakes and 2) so the owner can check on possibly missing/moved caches or bad coordinates or caches that may be hidden *too* well...

 

As far as an "official" policy on this- how would anyone *know* if someone started a cache and didn't log it? And I think, since from other forum threads it seems that geocachers are split equally on this issue, a set policy would make the sport less fun for half the cachers...

 

If it became madatory to log *every* failed attempt, no matter how mundane, I'd be annoyed; if it became against the rules to do so unless a *real* attempt were made, then others would be prevented the fun of posting their misses...

 

Tara P

 

Tara P

[+apersson850]

I don't log a "not found" just because I changed my mind 30 km from the cache, or it turned out that the planned hunt that afternoon couldn'n commence before it was too dark, or whatever.

 

But when I've been at what I think is the correct place (what the GPS thinks is the correct place), and didn't find the cache, then I log it as a "not found". Even if I looked just for two minutes, due to one zillion of mosquitos trying to eat pieces of meat out of my body, or it's in a park that's closing right now, or I can't stay any longer because I'll miss an appointment, or I have broken my leg.

 

If I find the box, I log an "I found it". If there is nothing to write on in the box (has happened to me), I make a log book, if so of a reciept I happened to have in a pocket, or whatever.

 

Anders

[+briansnat]

quote:

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if for ANY reason i dont find it, then i give myself the dreaded frowny face!

---

 

I don't see why the frownies should be dreaded at all. It's all part of the game. If you don't find it its not a black mark against you. It doesn't make you look inept and often it tells a story. Sometimes funny, sometimes informative.

 

As far as finds, I only log a find if I find the cache. That concept should seem self evident, but I've seen people log a lot of specious finds. For example, I've seen some logging the first leg of a multi leg cache as a find without finding the end cache, others log a find where the cache was missing but they are "sure" they were in the right spot. I even saw one bunch logging the screw holes left when a cache that had been screwed into a board went missing.

 

Now MAYBE I'll log a find if I find a Tupperware lid with the words Geocaching.Com on it at the cache site. That's a maybe. It hasn't happened to me yet. I did log a not found where the spot that the cache was hidden was obvious to me. It was behind a log with a pile of bark and circular depression in the center. There were even a couple of plastic toys scattered about the area that looked suspiciously like standard cache trade items. I picked up the items and threw them away, and logged a no find, because I didn't find the cache. My reasoning was that I was there looking for a cache, not for the place where it had been hidden

[+brdad]

I guess there needs to be a "close, but no bananna" option, some people have a hard job with black and white. My count is low and I haven't not found any yet, so the test has not been put to me yet. My virgin istinct is if I am looking for it but don't find it, it's a no find.

 

Money doesn't grow on trees, but there is cache in the woods.

[+Markwell]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jamie Z:

What I think I might start doing is logging a no-find on every cache that exists... because, well.. I haven't found them all.

---

 

My 6yo son keeps asking me "What happens when we find the last one?"

 

I've stated my own personal guidelines before, but here they are again...

I found the cache, signed the log book and/or completed the necessary stuff for the virtual. The cache was there when I left.

 

I went out and looked for the but couldn't find it. My general guideline would be if I got out of the car and started to search.

 

Info on the cache (from me the owner or as another interested party). Also for those times when I got to the parking area and decided because of rain or whiny kids that I just wouldn't even search for the cache. "Not found" to me indicates that I was actually searching for something. How can you "not find" something for which you weren't searching?

 

Again - these are my personal guidelines. I log everytime I go out the door with the intent to Geocache.

 

Markwell

Chicago Geocaching

[+spyderman]

It's a simple,50/50.Either you find a cache or you don't.If found log it found.If not log as couldn't find it.

[+travisl]

RainbowTVP pondered...

quote:

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Maybe this question needs to be answered- what is the *reason* for having a "not found" option- I thought it was so that 1) other searchers can be aware of possible difficulties and allow extra time or otherwise avoid our mistakes and 2) so the owner can check on possibly missing/moved caches or bad coordinates or caches that may be hidden *too* well...

---

 

Nope. The reason I log ''not found'' is that I began the hunt, and didn't find it. Sometimes -- maybe half the time -- ''not found'' logs do result in 'warning' other searchers or having the owner check on the cache, but for me, more often than not, it's a badge, a reminder. When I look at My Cache Page, and see the array of smilies, notes, and frowns, I can remember almost every frown and smilie. Notes, on the other hand, I only vaguely recall.

 

The only question for me, up until I read BrianSnat's fine suggestion, was when does a hunt begin? Punching 'Go to waypoint' is a good bright-line rule, particularly since I often do that well in advance of trying to find a parking spot.

 

"Why don't you just ask somebody?"

"No, no. I've got a map. Don't worry about that."

[+Web-ling]

quote:

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Originally posted by Anders:

If there is nothing to write on in the box (has happened to me), I make a log book, if so of a reciept I happened to have in a pocket, or whatever.

 

Anders

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You have POCKETS in that outfit???