Will GPS Receivers be affected by war?

9.4k · March 19, 2003

Get it out of your systems, folks.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

1.1k · March 19, 2003

Historical discussions can be found here, here, here and here. There are quite a few other discussions in the past 3 years the site has been active.

UPDATE: Moun10bike posted a link to an article restating that GPS will not be affected. It didn't happen in Afghanistan and it won't happen now.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

[This message was edited by Jeremy Irish on March 19, 2003 at 09:34 AM.]

1.7k · March 19, 2003

I've been wanting to mention this and haven't found a good place to do so:

Even if Selective Availability is turned back on - and it's quite likely that it will not be, given that it was temporarily turned off for the last Gulf War - anyone who has a WAAS-capable receiver will not be affected. WAAS almost completely eliminates the sort of signal distortions that Selective Availability introduces.

March 19, 2003

Last night a local news guy up here said anyone with a civilian GPSr will be the first to know when the war starts I sorta qoute "When the acc. on the handheld GPSr's go from 5 meters to 100 meters...Its SHOWTIME"

*We are teaching our Zoe dog to sniff out Tupperware...*

1.7k · March 19, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by coast2coast2coast:
"When the acc. on the handheld GPSr's go from 5 meters to 100 meters...Its SHOWTIME"

That just proves that news guys are idiots too.

Accuracy without S/A is supposed to be about 10 meters, not 5 meters.

And your Garmin will not notice if S/A is turned back on. It'll still be lying to you and claiming it's got an EPE of 14 feet or some other implausible number, because the only factor it considers is PDOP. However, you will notice that S/A is back on if your GPSr suddenly tells you you're going 2-3 mph in a random direction when you know you're standing still.

4.7k · March 19, 2003

i am COMPLETELY not worried about it. i figure either 1)my life will go one fine as it is, 2)my life will go on with modifications, or 3)armageddon will spoil everything and i just won't be having any fun at all.

in any case, there's no point in fretting about it.

it doesn't matter if you get to camp at one or at six. dinner is still at six.

March 19, 2003

Are not GPS sattelites stationary? So if we are over here and they are over there, why worry about it?

Nice Rack!

March 19, 2003

quote:
Are not GPS sattelites stationary?

Nope, they move.

And they're not geostationary either.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Delete windows to communicate freely with me.

2.9k · March 19, 2003

This would mean that Averaging will be usfull again.

Many Garmins will be able to do averaging, so you can save an averaged waypoint, then you could go into simulator mode(indoor mode), then select the averaged waypoint from the satellite page as the GPS's new location. You would then do a direct goto, while in simulator mode. The GPS will tell you the magnetic heading to the cache, then you would use your Magnetic compass to zero in on the cache. This should work, especially if you put a marker(flag) in the ground at each averaged waypoint, that you use.

This is quite wordy, but it can be done during this war, especially if they re-instated Selective Availibilty during the conflict. For loacallized GPS jamming(which would be likely), geocaching could be difficult, in those areas.

Will be interesting to compare Garmins and Magellans during this crazy event.

Magellans do auto-averaging, and Garmins can do it manually.

Always different...Hit refresh

maze?90+35+4+2+0+180+0+0+255+255+255

March 19, 2003

Here's another link that supports the claim that civilian GPS won't be affected. Seems that local jamming "in-theatre" is more effective than SAS.

March 19, 2003

from the geocaching-will-be-more-challenging dept.

ward99 writes "The U.S. government may be degrading GPS satellite signals, to cripple Iraqi forces' ability to use those systems during the war. This could potentially reduce accuracy from ~3 meters to over ~100 meters. Users depending on GPS systems may want to do sanity checks on any data returned by those systems during the war. The U.S. will do this by increasing the inaccuracies on the civilian C/A code, turning back on S/A (Selective Availability), by having the satellites

deliberately and randomly return inaccurate information on where they are. S/A degrades GPS accuracy to only 100 meters 95 percent of the time and 300 meters the other 5 percent of the time. This will not effect the military P code."

looks like ward 99 was reading the posts on geocaching.com from the last time we were about to go to war????

March 19, 2003

Jeremy provided links to other geocaching threads that discount the slashdot and other rumor reports.

1.7k · March 19, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by GOT GPS?:
This would mean that Averaging will be usfull again.

Only if you want to average for several hours. SA is specifically designed to resist averaging.

March 19, 2003

The assorted GPS forums have already had all sorts of problems blamed on govement interference with the system as a result of this conflict.

Seems the Europeans especially like to play with conspiracy type theories of this type. Could it have anything to do with the politics of Galileo???? SA was turned off after the US developed the capability to selectively deny service in areas of its choice. Even without this though, looking at the weapons, situation, and tactics of Iraq, what makes GPS a major player for them? My guess would be that more effort will be put into GPS interference by Iraq than the US

1.4k · March 19, 2003

I'm not worried about it. I bet WaldenRun isn't either.

Web-ling

GPSr-Optional Geocacher

2.3k · March 19, 2003

Go ahead. I got WAAS.

24.7k · March 19, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by flask:
i am COMPLETELY not worried about it. i figure either 1)my life will go one fine as it is, 2)my life will go on with modifications, or 3)armageddon will spoil everything and i just won't be having any fun at all.

in any case, there's no point in fretting about it.

That about sums it up. I've found caches at 500' before.

If the military were to do something they would do the right thing and lie to us about it (and the Iraqi's as a result) then turn it all off and screw up any Iraqi systems.

Works for me.

Wherever you go there you are.

6.4k · March 19, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Indiana Jeff:
Go ahead. I got WAAS.

Not that I think for a second that SA will be enabled globally for this war, but who do you think controls the WAAS signals? If the Gov wants SA on, they can shut off WAAS just as easy.

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

March 19, 2003

Check this out GPS will still work

March 19, 2003

I just wonder what the Nostradamus, UFO/alien, Numerologist, Kennedy assasination and all the other conspiracy sites have to say? Or supermarket tabloids for that matter? "But I saw it online" brings a smile when someone comes up with some half-baked "news".

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to ice down Walt Disney's head and feed the albino aligators in the sewers...

March 19, 2003

Look at this article that is currently in the news:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/887551.asp?0cv=CB10

Northern Trekker

March 19, 2003

If they were to reactivate SA and turnoff WAAS, I could deal with it for few days or weeks. It just means I re-prioritize my hobbies...

I prefer not to worry in advance about such things, anyway.

I just pray for the safety of our folks in uniform.

Dave_W6DPS

My two cents worth, refunds available on request. (US funds only)

March 19, 2003

I don't know their source, but today's episode of The Screen Savers on TechTV also mentioned that SA might likely be implemented again.

March 19, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by keck314:

Nope, they move.

And they're not geostationary either.

...nor are they geosynchronous.

1.6k · March 19, 2003

Thank you Jeremy for coding this topic to stay at the top of the pile.

1.3k · March 20, 2003

This came from storm chasers list:

>Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 18:00:58 -0600

>From: Ed Carp

>Subject: Re: [WX-CHASE] Wartime GPS accuracy could be degraded...

>

>I'm using a non-WAAS GPS receiver.

>I usually get accuracy to within 20 feet

>consistently. This afternoon, it's been all

>over the place, from 15 feet to

>200 feet and everywhere in between. Very weird.

March 20, 2003

Guess not. My Vista was showing 5 meters accuracy this morning.

20.7k · March 20, 2003

My 3+ is working just fine; no accuracy issues.

Also, gas is the same price as yesterday and the day before.

March 20, 2003

I took my pulse and relaized I was alive.....darn...now I have to figure out what to do today.....I just naturally figured the world would end like Barbara Strisand (sp?) said it would. I have no idea what I'm going to do now...this is almost as bad as the world not ending for Y2K!!! Man, I just can not believe the news people got it wrong again...they are sooo believable!!! I just always trust them!!

We're going on a treasure hunt...we're not quite sure just where...but with our trusty GPS, we'll find a cache stashed there!!

By Daughter Cheryl

March 20, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Captain_Morgan&Family:
This came from storm chasers list:

>Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 18:00:58 -0600

>From: Ed Carp

>Subject: Re: [WX-CHASE] Wartime GPS accuracy could be degraded...

>

>I'm using a non-WAAS GPS receiver.

>I usually get accuracy to within 20 feet

>consistently. This afternoon, it's been all

>over the place, from 15 feet to

>200 feet and everywhere in between. Very weird.

What was the PDOP? This sounds like a bad PDOP. With a PDOP < 6, it should have an error of 5-10 m, as usual.

March 20, 2003

The best thing to do, really, is fire up your moving map GPS on your way caching and see if the GPS is putting you on the road you're on. If you pull up to an intersection, and it's the same intersection that is shown on your GPS map, you're probably safe to continue caching.

On the otherhand, if it shows you in the parking lot of Sears - and the nearest Sears is a mile away - better make a U-Turn and head home.

As far as GPS affecting commercial and recreational flying, pilots have been navigating without GPS for decades. A prerequisite check of NOTAMS (NOtices To AirMen) would say whether or not GPS was functional. If not, LORAN, VORs, ADFs, etc are still quite functional.

---------------

Go! And don't be afraid to get a little wet!

March 20, 2003

I hope they don't restrict Nylons and silk again, like in the big one!

--majicman

1.1k · March 20, 2003

If there becomes enough reasons to tone down the system (and there is absolutely no reason what so ever to be even thinking along these lines) then WAAS (or dGPS) would also be put in Military mode.

Really don't see why there's all this expectation that SA will be back, apart from the attempt by some Journo's at sensationism and scare mongering, 'cause it's certainly not good reporting.

Cheers, Kerry.

I never get lost everybody keeps telling me where to go

March 20, 2003

Having been in the military in hot zones and other past conflicts, I know for a fact that they won't disrupt our GPS use....I use the same unit to find these caches as I did while I was on patrol looking for bad guys..

Aloha

March 20, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by ZingerHead:
Here's another http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/2003/iraq-and-gps_faq.pdf that supports the claim that civilian GPS won't be affected. Seems that local jamming "in-theatre" is more effective than SAS.

This is exactly what I have been hearing, both on local "chats", and on the "news". Unless the USA gets invaded by a horde of mogrels throughtout out contintent, it makes no sense to degrade the whole system.

1.2k · March 20, 2003

Iraq has reportedly attempted to get devices to try to jam the satellite signals that guide JDAMs and Tomahawks to their targets. The United States can overcome such countermeasures, however, said Maj. Gen. Franklin Blaisdell, director of space operations for the Air Force.

``Any enemy that would depend on GPS jammers for their livelihood is in grave trouble,'' Blaisdell said.

AMEN BROTHER!!!

I keep telling you all that we have it together, but nooooooo, the whining just keeps on coming...LOL.

The only whine that is legitimate around here is the whine of INCOMING!!!

Iraqi self portrait--->

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

2.9k · March 20, 2003

Not here in NorthWest Detroit, Michigan(48240)

My 2 GPS Vs, Meridian Platinum, and GPS 315 all performed great. I did a run with the old GPS V, and it was spot on. Did some driving to a cache with the new GPS V, and it was spot on, with the Deluxe City Select Software. Also the MeriPlat was a Great Caching unit for finding a Microcache among tall trees. "UMC's Second Cache"

Good day for GPS use here.

I amagine there are areas where they are testing GPS jammmers here in the USA.

Always different...Hit refresh

maze?90+35+5+2+0+0+190+0+255+255+255

March 20, 2003

Here's a Wired news article from 10/01 on the topic:

http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,47739,00.html

March 20, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Breaktrack:
"...Any enemy that would depend on GPS jammers for their livelihood is in grave trouble..."

I should think so ...talk about 'illuminating' yourself as a target!

It wouldn't take much time for the SigInt types to isolate and DF a ground based transmitter operating on a frequency that's normally reserved for satellite borne GPS transmissions. If these things are ever actually deployed, they might as well erect a flashing neon 'Drop Bomb Here' sign beside each one.

March 20, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Warm Fuzzies - Fuzzy:
I've been wanting to mention this and haven't found a good place to do so:

Even if Selective Availability is turned back on - and it's quite likely that it will not be, given that it was temporarily turned _off_ for the last Gulf War - anyone who has a WAAS-capable receiver will not be affected. WAAS almost completely eliminates the sort of signal distortions that Selective Availability introduces.

http://216.202.195.127/warm.gif

SA was not turned off during the last (1991) War.

SA was not turned off until May 1, 2000.

The internet was not around during the last war either.

1.1k · March 20, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by solohiker:
SA was not turned off during the last (1991) War.

SA was not turned off until May 1, 2000.

SA was definately de-activated in Sept 1990 specifically as to provide improved capabilities (from an incomplete system at that time) in the Gulf war as a large number of civilian GPS receivers were used in that operation. It was re-activated on July 1, 1991 and implemented to the the SPS level on Nov 15, 1991.

As for WAAS being useful, well the "Emergency Military Mode" that's built into WAAS will quell any expectation with WAAS, but this won't happen either.

Cheers, Kerry.

I never get lost everybody keeps telling me where to go

1.4k · March 20, 2003

The internet was not around during the last war either.

You may not have been on the net back then, but an awful lot of us were

Jeff

http://www.StarsFellOnAlabama.com

http://www.NotAChance.com

If you hide it, they will come....

March 20, 2003

quote:
The internet was not around during the last war either.

Yep. It was around. In fact, my boss was sending e-mail to his son deployed in the Gulf at the time. Some folks on that end received the messages then delivered them to the forces on paper.

Or maybe that was BITNET or FIDONET. Regardless, it had a gateway to the Internet.

George

March 22, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by nincehelser:

quote:
The internet was not around during the last war either.

Yep. It was around. In fact, my boss was sending e-mail to his son deployed in the Gulf at the time. Some folks on that end received the messages then delivered them to the forces on paper.

Or maybe that was BITNET or FIDONET. Regardless, it had a gateway to the Internet.

George

The Internet started as the ARPANet, sponsored by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) The original ARPANet, split into two networks back in 1983--the public ARPANet and the (exclusively military) MILNet. From this, regional/national networks (BARRNet, NSFNet, etc.) were formed to connect universities and businesses. All of these regional networks together became known as the Internet. Several iterations and years later, many of us are sitting in the comfort of our homes reading email and surfing the "web."

-Fy

[This message was edited by TeamJiffy on March 22, 2003 at 05:00 PM.]

March 22, 2003

I used my Garmin-III today, I didn't notice any major accuracy problems.

CODENAME: ALPHA OPERATOR

daedalus://govlink/secure/majestic/12.12.12/ops/throne/AO

MAJESTIC-12: THRONE G6 LEVEL AGENT

http://www.forumplanet.com/gamespy

3.1k · March 23, 2003

Went caching, accuracy is as close as the placer makes it. Zero problems.

I hear voices.....and they don't like you!

March 23, 2003

Not only is the Government messing with the GPS signals, but I have reason to believe I've been the victim of a black bag op as all the beer in my fridge has been kidnapped. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm getting out my tin foil and making a hat now!

March 24, 2003

I tried various times with my GPSMAP76 S , normal 3D GPS and differential 3d GPS. Both times, the calculated position was absolutely correct and only 3-5 meters away from where it should be.

My GPS was never as accurate as today.

hello

March 24, 2003

Darn, so this means that my unit suddenly forgetting how to find satellites is probably a problem with my unit. (Turned it on, found a range of satellites with various signal strengths, 10min later, it only had 1 satellite at max strength and didn't show any others at all, turned it on next day same picture.)

-- If life gives you lemons, make lemonade. If life is less kind, grow mushrooms.

March 24, 2003

Is it just me, or does every news report I've seen about this only say that SA _might_ be turned on? Or that they have the capability of turning it on? The only report I've seen that wasn't speculation was a military higher-up who said they wouldn't turn SA on b/c they can do jamming in small areas.

Will GPS Receivers be affected by war?

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