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Why can't I find this cache?


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http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=59512

 

Why can't I find it?? Because it is placed INSIDE a UK military base on the island of Cyprus in the Mediterranean Sea.

 

To quote the cache description:

Note: this cache is located on the Akrotiri RAF base in the British Sovreign Area of Cyprus. If you can legally access this location go for it. If not, don't try to sneak on, the gate guards would not be happy.

 

Following discussions with cache approver erik88l-r, the cache was archived. Now however, it has been unarchived. It seems that the cache has been deemed to be acceptable because the cache owner has said that the "Any person associated with with the British, American or any other NATO military can also access this base." and that means that plenty of people can find the cache.

 

So if I join the Royal Air Force or if I can persuade my wife to join the US Marines, then we can go and find the cache. Otherwise all we can do is press our noses up to the fence. Even my British passort doesn't gain me admittance to the piece of land where this cache is situated.

 

The cache guidelines are quite clear -

Off-limit (Physical) Caches

 

We're assuming that you asked permission to post your cache. However, if we see any listing description mentioning ignoring "No Trespassing" signs (or any other obvious issues), your listing will be automatically archived.

 

and....

 

Caches will be quickly archived if we see the following (which is not inclusive):

 

Caches near or in military installations

 

Is this right? Are we happy to have caches only accessible to the military? Should we ask Jeremy to start a new classification of cache to cover this? Am I being over sensitive about this and should just go and find the other caches on Cyprus that aren't behind razor wire?

 

You tell me.

 

Alex.

 

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Knights of the Green Shield stamp and shout.....

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I think you’re probably misreading that guideline. It says if there are “No Trespassing” signs it’ll be archived. Around a military facility there are usually “Authorized Personnel Only” signs. That means it’s not trespassing for certain individuals.

 

I notice that you mention "Caches near or in military installations". I guess technically you have a point. But the owner did say in the description where it was.

 

Enough splitting hairs. Who cares? Just move on.

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If the hider obtained proper permission from base authorities, I have no objection. While not everyone can hunt for it, the population of those who can is quite large. If it were located somewhere that restricted access to very few individuals (like a country club, for example), I may object to the "exclusive" nature of it.

 

Worldtraveler

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quote:
That means it’s not trespassing for certain individuals.

On the chance that General Bracket wasn't trying to be funny, the same is true for No Tresspassing signs. Generally just a smaller group of certain individuals.

 

If the guidelines say no caches on military installations then lets be consistent. No matter how red-white-and-blue our blood is right now.

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You're right (about the signs). But rules lawyering is very annoying. What's the big deal? Just don't log the cache. Is that to hard?

 

Has not a thing to do with the color of my blood. Has everything to do with the fact that I'm not so quick to tighten the screws if you catch my meaning. Be careful what you put the clamps on, lest those clamps evolve and one day tighten on YOU.

 

GPSaxophone:

Not ALLOW this cache? ROTFLMAO!!!

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I personally like the fact the site has Guidelines not rules. And in fact say

quote:
There are always exceptions. If your cache fits within these areas, please explain in the description (or hints) of the cache.
This seems very similar to cache near the border between two countries. If a geocacher doesn't have a passport and visa they will not be allowed to cross the border to find the cache.

 

My opinion is the hider explained his reason, the approver accepted it, so the cache should be allowed.

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I think this is a good reason to support a

cache attribute that you can tag this cache

as one you do not want to show up on your

'not found list'.I would like to place more

hydro caches where I live,but do not want to

annoy local cachers without boats,by filling

their lists with caches they will never find.

Seatrout

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quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:

Why do you care? Is it worth any time out of your life to worry about something so silly?


Was it worth any time out of YOUR life replying to this topic when you have nothing to say??

 

A.

 

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Knights of the Green Shield stamp and shout.....

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I agree with Sissy-n-CR, it's kind of like a Members Only cache, only the "members" are those in the military.

 

Look, there are a LOT of caches I'll never get to find, just a fact of life. I don't ask that those I will never get to hunt be archived... seems silly to me.

 

texasgeocaching_sm.gif

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

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I actually talked to this cache owner after a direct email question from another cacher right after the cache was placed. The owner assured me that he had permission to place the cache from the base commander. I asked him to specify that on the cache page and he did modify the description. He said he was trying to get more of the military group involved in geocaching, but they are most likely just a little busy right now (there are no logs on the page). He also knows someone who will watch the cache for him. Considering that these guys have to stay on their base sometimes this might give them a distraction from their daily concerns. It sounded like a cool idea so I did not archive it back then.

 

The cacher did go through the proper chain of command to get permission. You can't hunt it if it is archived anyway, so it doesn't seem to be harmful if you can't get to it if you are not in the military as long as it was placed properly. If Jeremy wants to archive it then so be it.

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quote:
Originally posted by mtn-man:

If Jeremy wants to archive it then so be it.


Looks like I'm not the only one to have reservations about this cache but it seems as though the feeling is that it is OK. If that is the case then Jeremy needs to change the guidelines to show that placing caches for private groups is acceptable.

 

I have written to the base commander asking for permission to access the base the next time I am on the island and asking for confirmation that the cache was placed with his knowledge.

 

A.

 

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Knights of the Green Shield stamp and shout.....

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quote:
Originally posted by Slytherin:

 

Looks like I'm not the only one to have reservations about this cache but it seems as though the feeling is that it is OK. If that is the case then Jeremy needs to change the guidelines to show that placing caches for private groups is acceptable.


 

Do you know any military personel? It's not impossible for civillians to get onto military bases as guests. This cache is just harder to get to than most. Put some effort into calling the base and finding out what you need to do to get access as a guest of the military. Find out if there are tours available or call the recruiter and tell him you're ready.

 

george

 

Wanna go for a ride?

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from the owner of the cache in question:

 

quote:
howdy!

 

sorry about not getting back to you sooner about my "South Cyprus Stash" cache. I'm currently still deployed in Iraq, and don't always have time or internet access to respond to things timely. I checked my mail this morning and saw that this cache has been archived. I'd like it to be unarchived, and reinstated. When this cache was first hidden, I got an inquiry about it from another administrator, Mtn-Man, and I explained to him where it was and who could find it. He approved it with no reservations. To answer your questions as to who could find this, here goes. The RAF base at Akrotiri has up to 15,000 British forces based on it during the year, a large proportion of these have spouses, childeren, and other family members with them at any time. Throghout the year, over 10,000 American military persons pass through as well, including many who go to the base for R&R time after coming out of the middle east. The base is located in a British Soveriegn Area on Cyprus, an enclave of britishness that dates back to the time when the whole of Cyprus was part of the empire. In this sovreign area are towns filled with thousands of British citizens who live there (kind of a Gibraltar arrangement)and have access to the base at Akrotiri for recreation and to use the shopping facilities. The cache is hidden in one of these recrestion areas with permission of those who oversee the area. All of these people have countless visitors who come year round and add to the total number of folks who could potentially find the cache. Any person associated with with the British, American or any other NATO military can also access this base. This potential pool of finders is very large. Can everyone on earth go to this cache, no probably not, but it is far from being an exclusive thing like being on a country club, or being a cache in a place you must pay admission to reach. The cache description clearly states where this cache is, its no secret. For an example of a cache on military property that has worked very well, see "Phantom Cache" another one I've hidden a while ago. Please don't archive it!!

 

Hopefully this will help get "South Cyprus Stash" reinstated. As for the person who complained about it and wanted it archived, it seems to be ony this one person and when I emailed them directly to ask whay they were upset, I never recieved a response. I can't explain their motivation, but I hope that The disagreement of one cacher is not enough to deny many other finders the opportuniy to find a good cache in a very nice location.


 

All of the above except the last paragraph was forwarded to slytherin when the cache was unarchived. I assumed that would explain the situation sufficiently.

 

Regards,

erik - geocaching.com admin

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quote:
Originally posted by ~erik~:

from the owner of the cache in question:

 

quote:

 

Hopefully this will help get "South Cyprus Stash" reinstated. As for the person who complained about it and wanted it archived, it seems to be ony this one person and when I emailed them directly to ask whay they were upset, I never recieved a response. I can't explain their motivation, but I hope that The disagreement of one cacher is not enough to deny many other finders the opportuniy to find a good cache in a very nice location.


 

All of the above except the last paragraph was forwarded to slytherin when the cache was unarchived. I assumed that would explain the situation sufficiently.

 

Regards,

erik - geocaching.com admin


It explained the situation, but I didn't accept that it was right to have a cache behind a razor wire fence that wasn't accessible to everyone. Still don't, but I'm happy to go with the majority view on it.

 

I'd also like to say that I never received any email from the cache owner.

 

A.

 

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Knights of the Green Shield stamp and shout.....

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OK folks.. My three penny worth..

 

Talking from a military stand point.. i.e. I'm ex army and chatted to brother wo is ex RAF and was stationd at Akrotiri.

 

Sovering Base Area covers the perninsular.. and RAF Akrotiri is within that area.

 

You can not get onto the base without proper authorisation.. i.e. military ID card.

 

Now.. as Cyprus is at the easten end of the Med.. close to Isreal and also a stepping off point for all kinds of operations for the gulf.

 

Do we really want someone to try and get onto an ACTIVE military base. Training operations have been suspended due to Operational requirements. Are we really willing to risk some one being shot for a box.. and belive me when I say I am not over stating the case.

 

This Station is at the forefront of airborn military op's for the area.

 

This cache should be archived for safety sake.. because belive me.. there will be some one stupid enough to go for it in the mistaken belief they can beat a bullet

 

Moss de Boss... Sorta

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quote:
Originally posted by Moss Trooper:

belive me.. there will be some one stupid enough to go for it in the mistaken belief they can beat a bullet


Won't be me icon_biggrin.gificon_biggrin.gificon_biggrin.gif

 

A.

 

---------------------------------------------------

Knights of the Green Shield stamp and shout.....

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quote:
Originally posted by Slytherin:

It explained the situation, but I didn't accept that it was right to have a cache behind a razor wire fence that wasn't accessible to everyone. Still don't, but I'm happy to go with the majority view on it.

 


 

Not every cache is available to every one.

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=22531

Is this cache available to everyone?

 

george

 

Wanna go for a ride?

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quote:
Originally posted by Moss Trooper:

quote:
Not every cache is available to every one.

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=22531

Is this cache available to everyone?


 

technically yes cos it aint on a military establishment and as long as yer got the kit you can get to it..

 

Is a 5 after all..

 

Moss de Boss... Sorta


 

The previous cache listed that military could have guests... well. Become a guest. It would be much easier to meet military members station in cypress then it would be for me to afford a trip up north.

 

george

 

Wanna go for a ride?

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quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Moss Trooper:

belive me.. there will be some one stupid enough to go for it in the mistaken belief they can beat a bullet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Won't be me

---------------------------------------------------

 

It will only be me ONCE! icon_smile.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by AllenLacy:

I personally like the fact the site has _Guidelines_ not rules. And in fact say

quote:
There are always exceptions. If your cache fits within these areas, please explain in the description (or hints) of the cache.
This seems very similar to cache near the border between two countries. If a geocacher doesn't have a passport and visa they will not be allowed to cross the border to find the cache.

 

My opinion is the hider explained his reason, the approver accepted it, so the cache should be allowed.


Getting a passport or visa does not require a 4 year career in the military. This cache is reserved for an exclusive group. This would be like placing it at a country club. You must join the club to gain access. Sure, you might be able to get in as a guest and geocachers don't automatically have the right to go anywhere they please.

Normally, a 5/5 cache requires special training and/or equipment. This one requires credentials. I think that's too far off base (no pun intended) to allow this cache.

 

bandbass.gif

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Too bad there is not a way to 'personally archive' a file - so it does not show up on the nearest cache lists, etc. This way all the people who have problems with caches up trees, on military bases, under water, etc. could just turn those caches 'off'.

 

Ok, it would not stop the complaining, but that is another topic.

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In view of concerns for base security due to terrorism alerts, etc, I rather doubt that it would be a simple task to become someone's guest to visit this cache. I am going to the UK next week, would someone like to allow me to be their guest so I can log this cache? I doubt it.

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