Support for BrianSnat

5.9k · September 21, 2003

I want to send my long distance support over to Jersey and let BrianSnat know he has my support and sympathy. It's so F'd up that someone has that weak a character that they would mess with someone's property like this.

I hope Seattle is doing something about this.

Brian, sorry to hear bro, let me know if I can help.

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

September 21, 2003

What's this about?

4.2k · September 21, 2003

Agreed, can we get a little more info on this Criminal?

1.3k · September 21, 2003

I think it's about this moronic pirate crap. Some of Brian's caches were stolen - so he's archiving them all. I can't say I blame him.

southdeltan

"Man can counterfeit everything except silence". - William Faulkner

September 21, 2003

If we're taking up a collection because Snat needs a new supporter I'll chip in.....

1.3k · September 21, 2003

Are Brian Snat's caches the only ones being plundered by the pirates? Having a cache plundered stinks, but it happens all the time. (Not just by pirates.) I think anyone who has had the unfortunate experience of a plundered cache is deserving of support.

September 21, 2003

Here is the thread where I first read about it.

There is so much room to Geocache the way you want, without effecting others. It sucks to have some idiot decide to play a new game with your stuff.

I hope somehow things get back to normal, and BrianSnat can un-archive his, obviously, popular caches.

Good luck.

___________________________________________________________

If trees could scream, would we still cut them down?

Well, maybe if they screamed all the time, for no reason.

Click here for my Geocaching pictures and Here (newest)

September 21, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:
I want to send my long distance support over to Jersey and let BrianSnat know he has my support and sympathy. It's so F'd up that someone has that weak a character that they would mess with someone's property like this.

I hope Seattle is doing something about this.

Brian, sorry to hear bro, let me know if I can help.

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

Not too sure of the scope of the problem, but I'm so sorry to hear that Brian Snat is having to archive his caches. Will this need to be permanant? I hope not.

I only know Brian Snat from his posts, but he can always be counted on for a knowlegable and reasoned take when he contributes to the discussion. I can only assume that his caches are well-planned and well worth seeking.

Thanks for bringing it to our attention, Criminal. More details would be nice.

Bluespreacher

"We've got the hardware and the software, the plans and the maps ..." -- Citizen Wayne Kramer

1.3k · September 21, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Bloencustoms:
Are Brian Snat's caches the only ones being plundered by the pirates? Having a cache plundered stinks, but it happens all the time. (Not just by pirates.) I think _anyone_ who has had the unfortunate experience of a plundered cache is deserving of support.

There is a difference between a random plundering (from what I can tell, this is normally done when some non-geocacher finds the cache) and organized stealing. This 'cache pirate' and all of his copycat followers are stealing caches and forcing owners to play a game that they don't want to play.

After reading a few of the posts it's becoming clear that a lot of people haven't read the various 'pirate' threads.

It was only a matter of time before somebody started stealing caches - I'm not sure why some people think it's acceptable because these people have decided to be themed theives.

I don't care what anybody says - you can not equate stealing a cache (container or just contents or everything but logbook) is NOT the same as trading. Leaving a map to a new hiding spot is not acceptable.

Ignoring this problem will not make it go away.

southdeltan

"Man can counterfeit everything except silence". - William Faulkner

5.9k · September 21, 2003

Sorry, having a BBQ today and had to get some stuff together. This thread mentions a little about it. This is a bit more than having a few caches plundered I'm guessing.

BrianSnat says:

quote:
Geocaching has been a lot of fun and one of my favorite parts was placing caches for people to find. I put a little thought and some money into my caches and the contents and I place them for geocachers to find. I also make the effort to maintain them, which isn't easy with all the caches I have out there. I'll be damned if I have to go chasing the contents, because some jerk who never made it out of the 8th grade mentally, wants to play some other game.

They can play their game, but they aren't using my ball.

I feel for him. The whole situation sucks. It sucks for BS having to deal with it, and it sucks for the other geocachers in Jersey who'll miss out on his caches.

I just wanted to throw my support his way.

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

4.2k · September 21, 2003

I figured it was due to the pirates as well but didn't really know for sure.

I'm also sorry to hear about this.

I don't know what can be done short of staking out your cache and beating the ever-living crap out of somebody who plunders it 'in the name of fun', but I hope something does happen.

Best wishes, Brian.

4.8k · September 21, 2003

One solution might be to make all caches five stars on terrain and hope the pirates succumb to some cardiac problem

We have one local cache (Ghost Tracks) that goes over a railroad bridge; perhaps an "unfortunate accident" could be arranged

24.7k · September 21, 2003

Having no caches to plunder does solve the problem.

He could of tried MO before pulling the plug. That may or may not of helped any.

September 21, 2003

IF pirating becomes a larger problem, I think people may start posting the parking location of thier cache and have to write to the owner for the Lat/Long or a hint.

I duuno how to solve this issue.

1.5k · September 21, 2003

Aside from a 300fps shot in the butt with a paintball gun while the pirate is running, not much is going to stop them, aside from either turning them MO, or archiving them. Making them off-set might work, and frustrate the pirate enough to abandon the thought.

Brian

Team A.I.

9.2k · September 21, 2003

New Jersey is one of the most cache-dense areas in the world, yet BrianSnat's caches consistently rise to the top ranks when people are asked to name the best caches and the best hiders in that area. A quick browse through the New Jersey-related threads in the Northeast forums (meaning most of them) will show you what I mean.

This is because Brian, like other good cache hiders, takes the time to select a good spot, uses appropriate containers, stocks his caches with a nice selection of goodies, and maintains his caches so that the 50th visitor has as much fun as the first. Those of us who care about our caches the way Brian does are the folks who take the most offense when someone tries to mess with our hard work. I design my caches a certain way and THAT is the experience I wanted you to have when finding it. I might react the same way if the pirates came to Pittsburgh. (Oh wait... aren't they our minor league baseball team?)

It's too bad the pirate couldn't pick any of the dozens of drive-by coffee can containers that I keep reading about. An extra container would clearly improve many hides. But sure, the jerks had to mess with a well-placed cache.

I do not have a good answer but if this thread is for moral support, I am beaming mine eastward.

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

Next time, instead of getting married, I think I'll just find a woman I don't like and buy her a house.

3k · September 21, 2003

I am so upset that we need to do this. Brian I feel for ya, pal. I would hate to have some childish "pyrate" even think about touching one of my caches. This has been bugging me since I heard they were getting closer. Think about it. Someone works really hard and goes through the trouble of speaking with the management and getting permission to place a cache and with the ranger's approval places it and someone who has no right to touch it comes along and decides they can make it better or they have the right to plunder, it just bugs the hell outta me. This stupid Pyrate caching . com thing is bad enough, thinking they should move them around and "improve them", but to have these other immature children types playing their own immature game is just silly. Label them "Can't play with others". Brian, hang in there dude, they shouldn't hit them all. Don't forget Brian, there is always the "Members only" option! Which I may just do to my own caches!

Planet

1.6k · September 21, 2003

I was just reviewing a couple of the distant early warnings about this whole thing, which even I laughed about... see here

I hope we can laugh again soon.

9.4k · September 21, 2003

I condemn the actions of cache pirates, but unfortunately as the webmaster for geocaching.com there's only a small number of responses I can take to counteract them. If you have any ideas, I'd love to hear them.

In many ways this geocaching is a social experiment. It's a good faith effort to "pay it forward" by hiding containers with goodies out in the woods for others to find. By placing a cache you are creating something that can result in a treasure hunt for kids and adults, and your reward is the joy in your finders. So far this has been widely successful and has created a friendly community of players.

Unfortunately there are always a few bad apples in the bunch that want to ruin it for the rest of us. Normally they're lazy so after you ignore them they go away. However, in this case it seems that people continue to want to kindle the fire to keep these guys going.

The only solution I can recommend is to make your caches member-only. That way you can, at a bare minimum, do some tracking as to who reads your cache listings.

There may be a future consideration to allow cache owners the option of making their caches "Request only" - so you have to email the user first before getting access to the listing. Permission-based caches would be limiting but would allow both subscriber and non-subscriber access to your listings.

Like many problems in life there is no simple solution for this. The more people involved both positive and negative affects will happen. So far there have been far more positives than negatives, so I hope the trend continues.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

September 21, 2003

BrianSnat is a cool guy and hides good caches. Sure, I want to punch him sometimes when I read his comments, but he's still an awesome GeoCacher. The cache pirate (piratecaching.com) is a complete jerk and I know this from experience. About two weeks ago I read about him and checked out his website and told him what I thought.

He emailed me back the following:

My Name

My Address

My Phone Number

While I definitely support Brian 110%, I would like to warn all of you other cachers to BE CAREFUL with how you approach the cache pirate. I view the email I was sent as a threat. Not that I think this guy is going to show up at my house (let him try), but I still think it shows something about how he's going to respond to us.

Keep thinking of things to do to combat this. Supposedly his webspace is ripped off from someone else (I read about it in a thread somewhere). I am tempted to call these people and tell them I'll sue for harassment if they don't shut down the server. But they probably would just think I was some sort of moron, and I'm pretty sure I erased the emails (because I'm smart like that... ha!).

Well, that's more than my two cents. We've lost TWO great cachers recently... I hope this isn't the demise of GeoCaching.

CACHE ON!

September 21, 2003

correction:

not shut down the server, shut down the page... sorry. I know someone's going to correct me, so I beat ya to it!

38.2k · September 21, 2003

quote:
Sure, I want to punch him sometimes when I read his comments

I'm not sure if that's a rousing endorsement But thanks everyone for the kind words and advice. A lot of people have offered some sensible ways of handling this situation. I will take them into consideration.

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

September 21, 2003

I'm bummed to hear of the problems BrianSnat

is having.

Reminds me of what my father use to say...

"It's so much easier to be DESTRUCTIVE than it

is to be CONSTRUCTIVE."

Wish I had something constructive to add.

A special thanks to Jeremy/Groundspeak for adding his thoughts on this.

September 21, 2003

Send the pirate up here.

I will take him "fishing". Lots of people vanish with out a trace up here. One more will go unnoticed.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

N61.12.041 W149.43.734

September 21, 2003

quote:
We have one local cache (Ghost Tracks) that goes over a railroad bridge; perhaps an "unfortunate accident" could be arranged

Well there's a measured response. Someone steals your box of Happy Meal toys so you push him off of a railroad trestle.

Listen. People. Geocaching is a game. These self-styled pirates are "grief players". These sorts have been here since the dawn of organized play and they will be here well into the future. You can either moan and herald in the "end of geocaching" (which would suck for me as I just got started), or you can deal with it and adapt.

Yes, it sucks that these fools are ruining everyone else's fun, but there are better ways to deal with it than this.

One way to make sure the problem does not get any better is to **** and moan on these boards, compare these pirates to terrorists, and discuss ways to murder them. You're just feeding the fire. Come up with a new plan.

/soapbox

******************************************************

Caching without music is like swimming without water.

******************************************************

1.3k · September 21, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Cupajo:

quote:
We have one local cache (Ghost Tracks) that goes over a railroad bridge; perhaps an "unfortunate accident" could be arranged

Well _there's_ a measured response. Someone steals your box of Happy Meal toys so you push him off of a railroad trestle.

Listen. People. Geocaching is a game. These self-styled pirates are "grief players". These sorts have been here since the dawn of organized play and they will be here well into the future. You can either moan and herald in the "end of geocaching" (which would suck for me as I just got started), or you can deal with it and adapt.

Yes, it sucks that these fools are ruining everyone else's fun, but there are better ways to deal with it than this.

One way to make sure the problem does not get any better is to **** and moan on these boards, compare these pirates to terrorists, and discuss ways to murder them. You're just feeding the fire. Come up with a new plan.

/soapbox

******************************************************

Caching without music is like swimming without water.

******************************************************

It's called sarcasm man In situations like this you wanna cry but it's best to laugh.

I am NOT of the opinion that ignoring this will make it go away. That may have worked in the beginning but now there are multiple copycats.

I hope a reasonable solutions can be found soon but this is a complicated situation.

southdeltan

"Man can counterfeit everything except silence". - William Faulkner

1.5k · September 21, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Mugsimus:
BrianSnat is a cool guy and hides good caches. Sure, I want to punch him sometimes when I read his comments, but he's still an awesome GeoCacher. The cache pirate (piratecaching.com) is a complete jerk and I know this from experience. About two weeks ago I read about him and checked out his website and told him what I thought.

He emailed me back the following:

My Name

My Address

My Phone Number

While I definitely support Brian 110%, I would like to warn all of you other cachers to BE CAREFUL with how you approach the cache pirate. I view the email I was sent as a threat. Not that I think this guy is going to show up at my house (let him try), but I still think it shows something about how he's going to respond to us.

Keep thinking of things to do to combat this. Supposedly his webspace is ripped off from someone else (I read about it in a thread somewhere). I am tempted to call these people and tell them I'll sue for harassment if they don't shut down the server. But they probably would just think I was some sort of moron, and I'm pretty sure I erased the emails (because I'm smart like that... ha!).

Well, that's more than my two cents. We've lost TWO great cachers recently... I hope this isn't the demise of GeoCaching.

CACHE ON!

Geez. I'm so impressed by his 1337 internet skills, that he is able to use qwestdex.com or whitepages.com to find out readily available information. Idle BS threats like that don't phase me in the least.

I had more fun when I messed with people (incidentally, those who tried to hack through my router) by simply using netsend. A message from a computer named FBI_Daemon was enough to send those pimple-faced 14 year-olds scurrying. Watching their IP immediately stop ping returns was humorous, and I enjoyed it immensely.

Brian

Team A.I.

September 21, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by southdeltan:
It's called sarcasm man In situations like this you wanna cry but it's best to laugh.

I am NOT of the opinion that ignoring this will make it go away. That may have worked in the beginning but now there are multiple copycats.

I hope a reasonable solutions can be found soon but this is a complicated situation.

I agree. Ignoring the problem may cause these morons to get bored and move on, but there are always more morons. Here's a piece of advice from someone who has dealt with grief players dozens of times before. If you do start to discuss a counter attack of some sort, don't do it on a public forum. That's like Espionage 101.

******************************************************

Caching without music is like swimming without water.

******************************************************

September 21, 2003

Ignoring a problem never makes it go away, you have to face it head on and deal with it, one way or another.

4.8k · September 21, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Cupajo:
We have one local cache (Ghost Tracks) that goes over a railroad bridge; perhaps an "unfortunate accident" could be arranged

quote:
Well _there's_ a measured response. Someone steals your box of Happy Meal toys so you push him off of a railroad trestle.

Sorry Cupajo if you took that comment incorrectly. It was meant as sarcastic. The measured response I have for people like the pirates is to ignore them. I have very few caches out right now, but I plan on planting more. If someone pirated one of mine, I'd just sit on it for a few days/weeks depending on how long it would take them to grow tired of the game. Then I'd restock and hope for the best.

Most of the time my little boy enjoys the hunt as much as rifling through the caches (Hot Wheel cars are the favorites). Occassionaly we come across a pretty lean looking cache, but that doesn't seem to dampen his enthusiasm. The hunt is what it's all about for us.

1k · September 21, 2003

I for one do not want to see BrianSnat archive his caches. I live in Northern NJ and I have a whole list of caches of his I still need to get to. I for one have no interest in his game, I do not wish to participate.

If the cache pirate is just trying to add a "twist" to the game, why not just respect the owners who do not wish to participate.

Why don't they ask permission beforehand? It would be one thing if they emailed the owner and asked if they would like to participate in there game, but to just take it and ruin the hunt for somebody else is childish.

And in this case, if Brian does decide to archive his caches, the pirate is not ruining it for just one person, he is ruining it for everyone. Hes ruining it for me, for you, for everyone in the tri-state area and for the folks who visit from other states and countries.

And Brian, if I find any of your caches and they are plundered, I will simply restock it as best as I can and remove all evidence I find. I am not going to allow the hunt to be ruined for anyone else. Period. End of story.

Kar

September 22, 2003

This type of thread feeds their fire. look at this post from the first thread I read on their site:

quote:
Capt- Thay be crying in da forums over dar because thay don't like we pirates play thar game.PANTALAIMON,UMC,CARLEENP,BRIANSNAT,SEPTICTANK,RADICAL GEEZER,SENECA,MOZARTMAN,and RIGHT WING WACKO thay all be crying because thay can't stop us we pirates. Me gets a belly laugh out of em. As for BRIANSNAT he be the biggest cry baby of all he can archive his caches all ye wants, it doesn't matter to us pirates.

Thay be acting silly with thar heads cut off and don't what to thinks. Me tells them what to think, Ye cannot do a d*mn thing. If ye don't like it QUIT.

http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post?id=22&goto=nextnewest&action=vpost&username=piratecaching&forum=

Wyatt W.

The probability of someone watching you is directly proportional to the stupidity of your actions.

September 22, 2003

quote:
There may be a future consideration to allow cache owners the option of making their caches "Request only" - so you have to email the user first before getting access to the listing. Permission-based caches would be limiting but would allow both subscriber and non-subscriber access to your listings.

Technologically, the work needed to do this is zero. The only thing that needs to change is for the admins to allow it.

____________________________

- Team Og Rof A Klaw

All who wander are not lost.

2.8k · September 22, 2003

The issue with not knowing the coords without asking is that it makes it near impossible to plan a day of caching.

I don't know how off the posted coords would be from the actual cache, but if they weren't close, how could you determine which caches to go after (geographically)?

I think it would be a royal PITA to do this (from a cacher's perspective, not the web coding).

1.6k · September 22, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy:
There may be a future consideration to allow cache owners the option of making their caches "Request only" - so you have to email the user first before getting access to the listing. Permission-based caches would be limiting but would allow both subscriber and non-subscriber access to your listings.

If you do this, PLEASE, give me a way to ignore caches. That way I can put all of the "Request Only" caches on MyIgnoreList.

Thank you.

CR

9.5k · September 22, 2003

I'll have to ditto the last two comments. My hunts are already spotty as it is. It'd just be a larger pain in the a$$ to have to gain coordinates on request. Of course, I'm just a little guy in the scheme of these things, so that's just my $.02.

Cheers!

TL

1.6k · September 22, 2003

The thing about off set coords is that it add as layer to the process that many of us with limited time don't have time for. Also, it prevents spontaneous caching like we did after our local picnic Saturday.

How about ISP freeze outs for pirates? When someone logs a taunting message or log on a cache, they could be reported to Admin and their ISP could be blocked from receiving the website.

Having all users log in each time would be another way of tracking each user and also tracking what they do on the site.

I also wonder if all caches should be members only?

_____________

"Half this game is ninety percent mental." Danny Ozark

September 22, 2003

We live in North Jersey & have found 43 of Brian's physical caches. He has hidden some of our favorite caches. It would be a major blow to NJ if he stops placing caches but I can't blame him. I just don't get why someone gets enjoyment out aggravating other people.

9.5k · September 22, 2003

Here's a thought that could encourage more members to be paying memberships.

Two options that could work separately or in conjunction:

1. Build in the Ignore option and make it a member only perk.

2. If the owner wants the coordinates listed to paying members but hidden to non-paying members while the description is publicly available and the non-payer can e-mail for the coordinates, build that option in.

Cheers!

TL

9.4k · September 22, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by bigredmed:
How about ISP freeze outs for pirates?

AOL would be the first ISP to go.

quote:
Having all users log in each time would be another way of tracking each user and also tracking what they do on the site.

True, though I'd catch hell for that.

quote:
I also wonder if all caches should be members only?

Now I would really catch hell for that.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

September 22, 2003

quote:
How about ISP freeze outs for pirates? When someone logs a taunting message or log on a cache, they could be reported to Admin and their ISP could be blocked from receiving the website.

As an added bonus, one pirate could shut down caching for thousands of innocent subscribers.

In my book, more options are always better than less. Yes, it's inconvenient to have to ask for coords first. It's also inconvenient to have to unlock doors before you go through them.

Automating the process would help, and is possible, but it'd take some code slinging. All that would change is that you'd hit a link on the cache page to request coords and your ID would be logged.

____________________________

- Team Og Rof A Klaw

All who wander are not lost.

9.4k · September 22, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Team Og Rof A Klaw:
Technologically, the work needed to do this is zero. The only thing that needs to change is for the admins to allow it.

I haven't seen this button on the server. If you know what switch to flip, I'll do it now.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

September 22, 2003

Jeremy,

Here's the button.

quote:
To: All Approvers
From: Jeremy Irish

Subject: Revised Approval Policy

Due to piracy, we're allowing caches with coordinates by request. This has to be listed in the top line of the cache description. Those interested in seeking the cache should PM the owner.

The coordinates actually listed should be for a start point. The hider still needs to provide the coordinates of the cache itself and all stages (if it is a multi).

Regards,

Jeremy

Well, not zero work. You do have to send a letter.

____________________________

- Team Og Rof A Klaw

All who wander are not lost.

[This message was edited by Team Og Rof A Klaw on September 22, 2003 at 08:08 AM.]

5.9k · September 22, 2003

This thread was never meant to be anything other than a show of support for BrianSnat. Debating the best way to handle it or vent ideas of physically harming someone, idiots that they are, is pointless and only serve to encourage them. If there were any administrative way of dealing with it, I’m pretty confident it would be done. The best “fix” is to support the victims and ignore the @ssholes.

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

September 22, 2003

Doubletap.

1.6k · September 22, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy:
Originally posted by bigredmed:
How about ISP freeze outs for pirates?

AOL would be the first ISP to go.

And that would be bad for what reason?

quote:
I also wonder if all caches should be members only?

Now I would _really_ catch hell for that.

Yeah, but if we could come up with a means of membership that was paid (like now) and a "guest membership" that wasn't paid, but did have the user tracking functions, then maybe we could at least have some idea of who is looking at a particular cache listing.

I don't think you would catch much hell for that.

_____________

"Half this game is ninety percent mental." Danny Ozark

9.4k · September 22, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by bigredmed:

Yeah, but if we could come up with a means of membership that was paid (like now) and a "guest membership" that wasn't paid, but did have the user tracking functions, then maybe we could at least have some idea of who is looking at a particular cache listing.

Good points. Though instead of creating "guest memberships" we could just give the cache an option to be viewed by logged in users only. A logged in user has - at a bare minimum - a valid email address. That and logged IP and you have enough information to chuck them for abuse.

quote:
I don't think you would catch much hell for that.

You don't read the forums enough. I catch hell for everything.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

9.4k · September 22, 2003

Since Criminal's intent was just support for BrianSnat, I'll cease the debate here. Do you want this thread locked, Criminal? I was specifically responding to your quote

"I hope Seattle is doing something about this."

Thinking you meant Geocaching.com, so I was attempting to respond to that.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

5.9k · September 22, 2003

Me lock a thread? I'm just hoping the debate will stop and the support for BrianSnat will continue.

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

5.9k · September 22, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy:
Since Criminal's intent was just support for BrianSnat, I'll cease the debate here. Do you want this thread locked, Criminal? I was specifically responding to your quote

"I hope Seattle is doing something about this."

Thinking you meant Geocaching.com, so I was attempting to respond to that.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

You type too fast for me.

Yes, by Seattle I did indeed mean ya’ll up there. The only solution I could see was for someone to pull lists of ISPs for all the caches that had been plundered, looking for a pattern. Probably not realistic. I thought I saw something about these morons getting access to MO caches, this would mean at least one of them is a paying member. I have very little knowledge in this area, so when you say there’s not much that can be done; I have to defer to your higher experience level. I am wrong sometimes.

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

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