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Denied Caches


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There have been a number of threads started when someone became indignant because their cache was questioned, or denied. I dunno, I've placed over 40 caches, most real, some virtual and have never had one even questioned. Some of them I consider to be exremely lame. If mine are being let through, I really have to wonder about those that are being denied. From what I've seen, to have your cache denied it has to be either really lame, or really pushing the envelope as to the definition of a geocache.

 

One day, one of my caches may push that envelope. If it's denied I plan to start a thread ranting about the admins and their arbitrary rules. I'll even threaten to take my business elsewhere; perhaps to my own website, or one of those other geocaching sites. You know the ones...where they have 10 or 11 caches listed within 100 miles of NYC.

 

"Life is either a daring adventure, or it is nothing" - Helen Keller

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I have had about seven or eight caches denied, but sometimes I do push the envelope quite often. The admen’s are just doing their jobs . After I thought about it for a while I think they were right to have denied mine, and like you said when it happens , don’t take it as a insult……….JOE

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Ive only put out a 5 caches, the last being questioned by an approver. I did rant and rave about this only because i knew that there were several others of this same type in existence allready. These werent old or grandfathered either. We worked things out and it was finally approved but the cache didnt get put out as i originally intended.

 

Im definitely glad there are people who volunteer their time to be approvers. My main gripe with the process is that all of the volunteers need to use the same criteria for approval!!!

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It does seem there is some ambiguity in the enforcement of the standing rules from time to time, and from admin to admin. It isn't rampant but it is noted. I do not know what it takes to become an admin, I do not know if there are training sessions, or meetings where they all get together and compare notes every once in a while, or what. It seems it would be a good idea though to have some kind of guide put out for the admins with examples of caches approved, and dissaproved, by other admins, so there would be some kind of consensus reached and cut down on approvals and denials based on an admins whims and predjudices.

 

In my humble opinion they are currently doing a hell of a job, but as we all know, there is always room for improvement. I have had very good experiences with the admins and have learned quite a bit from the feeback they've provided me. I look forward to submitting new caches soon.

 

icon_wink.gificon_wink.gificon_wink.gif

 

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

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I had one locationless disapproved which I really didn't mind anyway. It was only a half hearted attempt.

 

The concept was locate interstate exits that have the same exit number as the road number they are exiting to. On other words, Exit 34 on I-77 in SC is SR-34.

 

It was denied because of the problem with verification. It's illegal to stop to stop the interstate to take waypoint and picture of the sign.

 

If anyone can work out the logistics, have at it.

 

The other cache that was questioned was actually a pure letterbox. I changed it to allow for GPS use and it was approved.

 

So personally, I think the approvers are doing a fine job.

 

CR

 

72057_2000.gif

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So out of your 40 caches how many did you place prior to the new year? I think things have changed quite a bit around here as of late and I'm not sure why. Honestly I think the hit on Virts and Locationless is because there are not enough approvers. To answer that is easy, add more approvers. Its not like a business where your paying them to approve caches so where or why would it hurt to add more and let us put as many caches out as wanted.

 

migo_sig_logo.jpg

______________________________________________________________________________________

So far so good, somewhat new owner of a second/new Garmin GPS V 20 plus finds so far with little to no problem. We'll see what happens when there are leaves on the trees again.

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I'd suspect Brian and Fizzy's experience may be a little different than most since they seem to have been involved with GC.COM for a while.

 

My first (and only) virtual was questioned. Not a biggie, since I got back to the approver (or dis-approver) with additional details and it was approved. You didn't see a complaint from me posted on the boards - as a matter of fact, I asked first finders if they felt it warranted a virtual cache or should be archived.

 

Judging by the lameness of some of the Virts, I don't think it's so bad that the approvers are pushing back a bit. In all the complaints I've read, it's been a simple case of "I submitted my cache and it was disapproved so I started spraying in the forums (rather than just emailing the approver with additional justifications)". Maybe the approvers are actually onto something. Instead, people have actually questioned the POLITICAL slant of the approvers (although that seemed so bizzare it was probably a troll). icon_eek.gif As FizzyMagic noted - some people seem to take the questioning as a personal insult. Perhaps TPTB aren't familiar with our "right to place virts" guaranteed in section 3, paragraph 4 in the Bill of Rights. I'm calling Johnny Cochrane (or Rumsfeld - maybe we need to invade someone to preserve that right).

 

After all - if there's no approval criteria - they might as well just rubberstamp new caches. In looking at some of the virts hidden, it looks like some users want to "hide" a cache so desperately they create virts out of any man-made post, plaque or memorial in sight. I'm figure eventually someone will "place" a bunch of Cemetery virtual caches where each headstone shows up an individual virtual cache. I think the end result will be virtuals broken out separately (like Benchmarks) in this game.

 

On the approval side, maybe the "veterans" of this site are assumed to know this so the approvers cut them slack. I think the approvers are doing a good job on what looks like a pretty thankless task.

 

-HartClimbs (newbie but learning)

 

p.s. I *do* think it's funny that people get so upset though (and take it so personally). This whole thing is really about hiding tupperware in the woods, right? (or even better in the case of virtuals - not hiding anything and asking people to come see it!) icon_razz.gif

 

[This message was edited by HartClimbs on March 02, 2003 at 06:12 AM.]

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I've only had two caches questioned and none denied. Both were from the same admin and both were legitimate questions. The admin didn't understand a technique that was required (waypoint projection) on one of the caches. The other, was concerning RR right of way (the line hadn't been active in years) but his map indicated that it was active.

 

I think they are doing a great job!

 

Leatherneck

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.. hi.. (my two cents worth)… I haven’t noticed an inordinate ‘lack of standard evaluation’ among the admins for cache evaluation… but I certainly would expect there would be variations because each are human (..or so they profess ;-) and have their own ‘hot buttons’ that trigger responses. I do see a need to have the evaluation results try to be as consistent a practical and if the admins think this is actually a ‘problem’… seems to me it could be assisted in the creation of a ‘closed admin-only forum’ where the admins could cross-talk about a cache that is suspected to have issues. That way all the admins would be involved in the resolution and be the wiser for it… while we would see more consistent results of the evaluation. … ( … hmmmm… looks like I rambled more than my two cents worth after all).

 

"Remember... nothing is completly worthless...

it can always be used as a bad example"!

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quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

Yes, you're right; that cache proved that practically __anything__ will be approved. icon_wink.gif


 

You've said it brother! icon_wink.gif I thought it was a little lame but finders seemed to find it interesting.

 

I should have posted clearly my prejudice that I *much* prefer traditional caches.

 

Now, I'm off to writeup my "Cobblestone Virtual Cache" series. One for each antique cobblestone on on Tonnole avenue in Jersey City. I figure I can get credit for hiding about 2,000 new caches today! icon_biggrin.gif

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quote:
Now, I'm off to writeup my "Cobblestone Virtual Cache" series. One for each antique cobblestone on on Tonnole avenue in Jersey City. I figure I can get credit for hiding about 2,000 new caches today!

 

Well, you're certainly on this cache approvers watch list now. icon_wink.gif

 

Seriously, thanks for the kind words of encouragement in the postings above. The cache approvers are geocachers just like you who do this in the evening from home for the love of the game. We don't get paid, we don't fly to conventions on a www.geocaching.com Lear or Citation jet to compare notes. We sit at home in front of our PCs and rely on our experience and a discussion forum just like this one to compare notes and discuss questionable caches. Many of us have gotten quite demoralized over some of the recent cache postings so it is gratifying to read the positive ones as well.

 

Cache on!

 

erik - geocaching.com adminion lackey

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I created a virtual cache in New York city on NPS (National Park Service) property. In the Short description line I added “This is on NPS land. That is why it’s a virtual cache. Please delete before posting.” I did this in large red letters. This cache was posted within 4 hours. I also received a note from the approver thanking me for the notation. It made allowing it to happen quickly.

 

If when posting a cache we added some Admin only info, things might go quicker and with less flaming on the boards.

 

I’ve also noticed that there is always someone to whom cache posting has become more like professional race cars. The idea in that sport is to push the rules as much as you can without breaking them. I have a few friends that are involved with racing that have explained it to me this way. If by tweaking (I call it cheating without getting caught) they can pick up an extra HP or so that could be the difference between winning and losing.

 

The difference is that when you get caught in racing you don’t get nasty with the judges.

 

====================================

As always, the above statements are just MHO.

====================================

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quote:
Originally posted by zippes:

seems to me it could be assisted in the creation of a ‘closed admin-only forum’ where the admins could cross-talk about a cache that is suspected to have issues. That way all the admins would be involved in the resolution and be the wiser for it… while we would see more consistent results of the evaluation.


We have had that for almost a year now. It has helped tremendously.

 

Thanks for the kind comments. We do get some nice emails from cachers and they do make your day.

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On the note of kind comments I would like to say that Mtn-man is the greatest cache approver around. Not to leave the rest feeling left out you do a fine job also.

 

migo_sig_logo.jpg

______________________________________________________________________________________

So far so good, somewhat new owner of a second/new Garmin GPS V 20 plus finds so far with little to no problem. We'll see what happens when there are leaves on the trees again.

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quote:
Originally posted by umc:

On the note of kind comments I would like to say that Mtn-man is the greatest cache approver around. Not to leave the rest feeling left out you do a fine job also.


OK, now I'm really scared! icon_razz.gificon_razz.gificon_razz.gificon_razz.gif

(Your check is now in the mail.)

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I was just going to ask if you got that money for approving my cache...

 

migo_sig_logo.jpg

______________________________________________________________________________________

So far so good, somewhat new owner of a second/new Garmin GPS V 20 plus finds so far with little to no problem. We'll see what happens when there are leaves on the trees again.

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We needed this thread's pat-on-the-back, thankyou. With the recent bashing, there was some serious consideration to there being even fewer admins working the new cache queue. We each love this sport enough to give up spare time we could be caching and/or spending with our families etc. to review and work with cachers to get your new caches online. But it doesn't take too much beating and kicking to get us to turn off our PCs and step away...

 

__________________

-Alan

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-- my first (and only, so far) cache was denied and I was plenty bitter about it. I felt it encompassed the spirit of geocaching while being a little different but it seemed too different for the approvers.

 

I went ahead and did it anyway and will continue to place this cache but the finders will never get to add it to their tally.

 

Ah, well. It was never about the numbers, right?? icon_wink.gif

 

X is for X, and X marks the spot, On the rug in the parlor, The sand in the lot, Where once you were standing, And now you are not.

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I have been wondering about this little quandary, since in PA, placement of some caches have to Be approved by a Park Ranger(or FOrest Ranger etc ect)

 

I can see it now....Um Mister Ranger geocach would like me to find another location to hide my cache...

 

Yogi....you better leave that Picnic basket alone.....

 

There is nothing like a Packrat who is a geocacher.

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quote:
my first (and only, so far) cache was denied and I was plenty bitter about it

 

Why would you be "plenty bitter" about a stupid thing like having a cache rejected? I think that's the problem. Some people are taking this far too seriously. Would it have been that hard to tweak your cache somewhat to satisfy the objections of the approver?

 

And as far as placing a cache and not posting it here...I doubt I'd go through all the trouble of putting together and placing a cache, for it to sit there without any, or only a handful of finds.

I know there are alternative sites and ways of posting a cache, but if you ignore geocaching.com, you're excluding the vast majority of the geocaching community.

 

A government that is big enough to give you all you want is big enough to take it all away. -Barry Goldwater

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quote:
Judging by the lameness of some of the Virts, I don't think it's so bad that the approvers are pushing back a bit...SNIP... In looking at some of the virts hidden, it looks like some users want to "hide" a cache so desperately they create virts out of any man-made post, plaque or memorial in sight.

 

I think you hit the screw on the head Hartclimbs. I think a virt should be reserved for things that are out of the ordinary, or of significant interest (or for areas where real caches are banned). I've found a few virtuals that when I got there, my reaction was "Yeah OK, so what". I think when someoene finds a virtual, their reaction should be "Wow, way cool!" (or "Groovy!" for the older geocachers among us). I think this is what the admins are now trying to achieve by tightening things up a bit.

 

A government that is big enough to give you all you want is big enough to take it all away. -Barry Goldwater

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quote:
Originally posted by HartClimbs:

Judging by the lameness of some of the Virts, I don't think it's so bad that the approvers are pushing back a bit


 

And what about the lameness of some of the traditionals? I really appreciate the approvers questoning the virts. I just had one questioned and after providing some additional info it was approved. Now if we just had some better controls over trash traditionals...

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quote:
And what about the lameness of some of the traditionals? I really appreciate the approvers questoning the virts. I just had one questioned and after providing some additional info it was approved. Now if we just had some better controls over trash traditionals...

 

There are a lot of junky traditionals. I've placed them myself. Some people, esp. the numbers baggers, actually like them.I saw a recent forum post where the geocacher said he was happy to be able to find X number of caches this year because he concentrated on easy ones.

 

Now to me, a Gladware container, filled with trash and placed in a litter strewn lot, isn't my idea of a great cache. But I've found them and judging from my watch list (I watch every cache I've found), they are quite popular.

 

This being said they are still, strictly speaking , geocaches and I think the admins SHOULD give the placement of real caches a little more leeway than virts and locationless caches.

 

A government that is big enough to give you all you want is big enough to take it all away. -Barry Goldwater

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I've had them denied, questioned, modified, approved as is, and approved in spite of violating most 'rules' because they fit the spirit of the game.

 

In all of that I think they earned one "I told you so" they can use one me if they so choose.

 

Alas, I can't prove their intent wrong on one of my caches yet.

 

So far I've always been able to work out any kinks in getting a cache approved and the admins have always been willing to help me out and answer questions with the patience that working with me can take.

 

Wherever you go there you are.

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I've hidden 58 caches, plus helped my kids place 3 more. They fall into a wide range of types - traditional, multi, micro, locationless, virtuals, events, "other" and even a letterbox hybrid. I've pushed the limits on quite a few of them, but I've never had one denied. Several have been questioned, and I've had to make some minor modifications on some of them, but all were ultimately approved. Some of my more "unique" caches were approved by one of the admins who has been accused of making up his own stricter rules, including a locationless cache and a couple of virtuals.

 

Overall, I think the admins do a terrific job.

 

web-lingbutton.gif

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Unfortunately, the approvers just don't have the ability to prevent caches like this one and this one. Read the thread that accompanied those two caches! (Nostalgic for some of y'all ol' timers.) icon_biggrin.gif

 

Back on topic...

 

I was recently questioned about a virtual I had placed. I was quite bitter. Better understanding that people are hiding a bazillion virtuals of every pre-1900 grave marker can get a little ridiculous. I still contend that locationless and virtuals should still be part of the whole caching theme. I don't think webcam caches should have ever been created.

 

My 2c.

 

---------------

burnout.gif Go! And don't be afraid to get a little wet!

 

[This message was edited by VentureForth on March 04, 2003 at 06:14 AM.]

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I've put out 9 so far, and had one denied, but I contacted the approver and he explained why. I was satisfied. It was one of those awesome Christmas lights displays in a small neighborhood and they had a donation station for the needy so I thought it would be ok, based on a local cache I did around Halloween, but admins told approvers not to approve any more of such type.

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quote:
Why would you be "plenty bitter" about a stupid thing like having a cache rejected?

 

Because I like this sport and I want to do my part. I don't want to just find caches, I want to place them, too. I came up with a neat idea for a cache and it was rejected. Result: a bit of anger and bitterness.

 

quote:
Would it have been that hard to tweak your cache somewhat to satisfy the objections of the approver?

 

Yes. My idea was to place tiny one-time caches in neat spots on the way to the cache I was seeking. When I found the cache, I'd leave the coordinates for the Finders Keepers (as I was calling them) in the "official" cache and the first person to take the coordinates would be the only person to find the cache. Thus the name. The only way the approver would allow it is if it was a permanent cache, which pretty much misses the whole point. All I wanted was one page on which to list all the active Finder's Keepers and give the cachers who found these little caches someplace to step up and claim it. I only managed to place two before snow shut down my caching for the season but once I get out there again I'll resume hiding them. The responses for the two were positive and it'd be nice if the cachers could get "official" credit for finding them but that's just not going to happen, I guess. I'm still going to place them because they're fun for me and seem to be fun for others.

 

quote:
And as far as placing a cache and not posting it here...I doubt I'd go through all the trouble of putting together and placing a cache, for it to sit there without any, or only a handful of finds. I know there are alternative sites and ways of posting a cache, but if you ignore geocaching.com, you're excluding the vast majority of the geocaching community.

 

Tell it to the approvers.

 

X is for X, and X marks the spot, On the rug in the parlor, The sand in the lot, Where once you were standing, And now you are not.

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quote:
Originally posted by umc:

So out of your 40 caches how many did you place prior to the new year? I think things have changed quite a bit around here as of late and I'm not sure why.


 

For what it's worth, while I've only hidden half a dozen so far, all of my caches have been placed since the new year. All have been approved without problem. (And by a volunteer that others have complained about on the forums.)

 

Ron/yumitori

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Well I've just been denied the other day. And yes I did take it personally. Until now. You see, it was my very first cache and I was quite excited. Where I'm from, Miramichi, New Brubswick, we get quite a bit of snow. Geocaching seems to be pretty slow around here in the winter. I just got my Etrex for Christmas. I couldn't wait spring or summer. So I braved the elements, must have wakled about 5 km into the middle of nowhere, dug a hole in the snow about 5 feet deep and placed my cache. Every thing was great except for the Zig Zag rolling papers I left and listed as part of my cache. I was denied because of the "drug paraphanalia" and told to try again. The reason I left them was for paper to light a fire or write a note, it was all I had. So far tried to find four chaches with no luck, too much snow. And now I'm 0 for 1 hiding a cache. Anyways I love my GPS, and I love geocachig. So I'll try my luck another day.

Mic or Mac

Miramichi

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quote:
Originally posted by Mic or Mac:I couldn't wait spring or summer. So I braved the elements, must have wakled about 5 km into the middle of nowhere, dug a hole in the snow about 5 feet deep and placed my cache. Every thing was great except for the Zig Zag rolling papers I left and listed as part of my cache. I was denied because of the "drug paraphanalia" and told to try again. The reason I left them was for paper to light a fire or write a note, it was all I had. So far tried to find four chaches with no luck, too much snow. And now I'm 0 for 1 hiding a cache. Anyways I love my GPS, and I love geocachig. So I'll try my luck another day.

Mic or Mac

Miramichi


No offense, but besides the "drug paraphanalia" thing, there are alot of other reasons a cache like that shouldn't be approved (or placed in the 1st place). What happens to your cache when the snow melts? right now its under 5ft of snow, but what about summer? Is it sitting out in the middle of a field? Woods? Uncovered? Maybe on top of bushes or Poison ivy? In an enviromentally sensitive area? How can you be sure with 5ft of snow on the ground.

You also said the papers could be to write a note, and they were all you had. Was there no log book? A "you found it" note? Was this thought out, or did you just empty your pockets into a container and bury it in the snow?

I know you are eager to geocache, but it's really good to find some caches before hiding one. This way you get an idea how its done. I know I had ideas for hiding caches before I found my first. After I found 2-3, most of those ideas changed. By the time I found 10 caches those ideas had evolved further. By the time I actually placed my 1st cache, every aspect of it had been improved 10 times from my original concept of a cache.

Yeah, the snow sucks, and I can't even imagine 5ft of it. I've had about a foot for a good portion of the winter, and to get in my caching fix while the snow was deep, I did some urban and virtual caches, and even traveled to a warmer climate for a week.

 

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

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I know that it sounded like I walked randomly into the woods, dug a hole and placed a cache. What really happened is I went to a place that visit every summer and when I have enough time I'll even spend the night. I picked a place that is very familar to me and after I dug through the snow to the ground I covered it with branches. It also happened to be between two trees where there was a dip in the ground. When I was finished it looked as though the ground was even. So I can be sure there were no poison ive around and I also know that in is not an environmentally senisitive area. As for the log book yes I did forget it so I wrote a "You Found It Note" on a scrap piece of paper and used up every inch of the paper and then put it into a zip lock bag. So I left the "Papers" in the bag as well, with some macthes and a pen.

 

"How do you write on zig zag papers?"

 

Very easily. Same as any other piece of paper. Just really small. If you are really long winded stick them all together and go nuts!

As for how well thought out my cache was the rest of it was pretty cool including an axe, ,mug,tarp, map of the area fro 150 years and lots of other goodies!

If you need any other info on the cache or if you have any other questioned maybe I should just give you the coordinates and you could come up for a visit!

Thanks for the advice

This is fun!

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quote:
Originally posted by Mic or Mac:

I know that it sounded like I walked randomly into the woods, dug a hole and placed a cache. What really happened is I went to a place that visit every summer and when I have enough time I'll even spend the night. I picked a place that is very familar to me and after I dug through the snow to the ground I covered it with branches. It also happened to be between two trees where there was a dip in the ground. When I was finished it looked as though the ground was even. So I can be sure there were no poison ive around and I also know that in is not an environmentally senisitive area. As for the log book yes I did forget it so I wrote a "You Found It Note" on a scrap piece of paper and used up every inch of the paper and then put it into a zip lock bag. So I left the "Papers" in the bag as well, with some macthes and a pen.


OK, thanks for clarifying that. I was just trying to see reasons it might not be approved. I think thats the key to getting them approved, and maybe why some people have better luck then others. I try to step away from my cache and see it from the approver's (and the finder's) perspective. Often you can streamline the approval process by including a note to the approver clearing up anything that might look questionable without seeing the actual cache.

 

quote:
Originally posted by Mic or Mac:

As for how well thought out my cache was the rest of it was pretty cool including an axe, ,mug,tarp, map of the area fro 150 years and lots of other goodies!


OK! Now you really got me interested! Thats some great stuff, but big! What did you use for a cache container?????

quote:
Originally posted by Mic or Mac:

If you need any other info on the cache or if you have any other questioned maybe I should just give you the coordinates and you could come up for a visit!

Thanks for the advice

This is fun!


Hey, ya never know! Looks like you are in New Brunswick? That's not THAT far. Not until that snow is gone though, LOL! I just went to Florida for a week to get away from all the snow and do some caching.

 

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

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Was that the orange or white (cover) Zig Zag's? I tried on the orange one's and with a felt tip pen I could actually write on it 3 lines but only a few words. Here is what was on my first attempt.

 

Found 03/05/03

nice place for

a cache took

 

So then I tried this on another one:

 

Found 03/05/03

Took axe, left

sledge hammer

 

I tried to light a fire with one but within a half a second it was gone! POOF!

 

icon_cool.gif Just having fun with ya icon_cool.gif

 

icon_razz.gif

 

The problem with the gene pool is that there is no lifeguard.

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On a suggestion from ~Erik~ I'll be putting notes at the top of the next cache page I submit with information for the approver that should be deleted on approval. Extra info i don't want the cacher to know, but privvy info to the approver so they may get the 'gist' of the cache so to speak and skip the back and forth emails.

 

From when gets posted in the forums it seems they get a lot of lame virts and innanimate objects like deflated soccer balls being placed out in the woods all the time, so it's no wonder they make sure before just approving anything. It'd be far easier in some cases for them not to question them at all. I'm glad they do..

 

And on BrianSnat'S post:

 

I could not agree more. There's been a lot of 'I'll take my baseball and go home' talk of late.

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quote:
Originally posted by Mic or Mac:

Every thing was great except for the Zig Zag rolling papers I left and listed as part of my cache. I was denied because of the "drug paraphanalia" and told to try again. The reason I left them was for paper to light a fire or write a note, it was all I had.


 

No matter what the intent of the papers were, the inappropriateness of them is a proper consideration in my opinion for denying approval.

 

Go back, take out the Zig Zags, and put in a nice Rain Write and try again. icon_biggrin.gif

 

---------------

burnout.gif Go! And don't be afraid to get a little wet!

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quote:
Originally posted by VentureForth:

 

No matter what the intent of the papers were, the inappropriateness of them is a proper consideration in my opinion for denying approval.

 

Go back, take out the Zig Zags, and put in a nice Rain Write and try again. icon_biggrin.gif


 

Uh, you all know Zig Zags are used for legal purposes as well, don't you? My grandmother rolled her own cigarettes her entire life. So why assume the worst?

 

Shall we jump on people who leave corkscrews in caches as well? After all, they are intended to be used with substances that can harm the mind and body and have led to all manner of suffering...

 

I'd certainly suggest that the cache owner return in the spring to verify the container's condition and to add a logbook, but if the only reason to reject it is the presence of rolling papers, perhaps the staffer should reconsider.

 

Ron/yumitori

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i wouldn't think of rolling anything in the zig zags. everyone KNOWS the real reason you have them is to blot water out from under the pads of woodwind instruments.

 

it doesn't matter if you get to camp at one or at six. dinner is still at six.

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I don't what's more fun, geocaching, or chating with you guys or gals. This will be a great way to spend the last few weeks of winter and get a few laughs and lots of helpful hints for my First approved cache! As for the log book I don't think that I can wait for spring I'll be going back soon. I like going the day before a storm or a heavy snow fall so people can't just follow my track right to my cache. I know that this will sound unorthodox but I put the cache in a Green and brown back pack with all the supplies in plastic bags and zip lock bags. Then of course covered in branches and stuff.

Other things on my to do list Confluncing! Ever heard of it. It seem that there are only two left to get in New Brunswick and on in PEI that I sailed right by last summer.

Man this GPS stuff is really cool.

My thanks to the American military for sharing it with us!!

Mic or Mac

Miramichi

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