geocaching opposition?

[Guest cartographic]

READ ME

[Guest DisQuoi]

outed leave no trace practices here. Doesn't matter if it is or is not permanent "garbage" left in the woods. Think about the reasons why we teach our children that, no, its not o.k. to throw your orange peel on the trail. Sure decomposition may take place over the next few months but what about the next person who has to look at it. You probably see where I am headed with this. I spend a substantial amount of time off trail and traversing my wildlands and rest assured if I ever come across one of these caches every last component will be packed out and deposited into the local landfill. This will occur after my frustration has settled from the infringement on my recreation experience. Perhaps i'll look up the locations of some local ones and make an effort myself to find them with my own gps unit (which I learned how to use without leaving junk in the woods)and dispose of them properly. So....if you take it into the woods and don't think you need to bring it back out....fine....someone else will. Especially since locations are posted on the internet. And no...it won't be posted when a cache is removed. Sorry there "geocachers" but, uh...have a little respect will you. Go practice your gps skill by finding natural formations, trails trees, waypoints....but purposely leaving your crap in the woods to play hide and seek.....not gonna last folks, just not gonna happen...at least not in the Wilderness surrounding Missoula, MT.

 

Lance seems like a [***]. He's also very hypocritical. First of all, does he believe the wilderness to be his own personal sand box? He acts like it's his property. He speaks of our "infringement on [his]recreation experience" but speaks nothing of his infringment on ours. This just makes me mad.

 

*** edited for Steak N Eggs

... but Lance, if you do read this ... read your own comments from the perspective of geocachers (who consider themselves friends of the outdoors) ... you might see that you were very offensive. I don't trek through the outdoors so I can use my GPS ... I thank God I have a GPS so I can trek through the woods.

 

[This message has been edited by DisQuoi (edited 21 February 2002).]

[Guest DisQuoi]

(and impacts) to areas seldom visited. So now we'll tax our existing wildland base even more for the simple enjoyment of using gps equipment? The thrill of the hunt? Practice using a gps unit? As an avid W. Montana Wilderness user let me just say that this "practice" directly stands in the way of teaching our highly touted leave no trace practices here. Doesn't matter if it is or is not permanent "garbage" left in the woods. Think about the reasons why we teach our children that, no, its not o.k. to throw your orange peel on the trail. Sure decomposition may take place over the next few months but what about the next person who has to look at it. You probably see where I am headed with this. I spend a substantial amount of time off trail and traversing my wildlands and rest assured if I ever come across one of these caches every last component will be packed out and deposited into the local landfill. This will occur after my frustration has settled from the infringement on my recreation experience. Perhaps i'll look up the locations of some local ones and make an effort myself to find them with my own gps unit (which I learned how to use without leaving junk in the woods)and dispose of them properly. So....if you take it into the woods and don't think you need to bring it back out....fine....someone else will. Especially since locations are posted on the internet. And no...it won't be posted when a cache is removed. Sorry there "geocachers" but, uh...have a little respect will you. Go practice your gps skill by finding natural formations, trails trees, waypoints....but purposely leaving your crap in the woods to play hide and seek.....not gonna last folks, just not gonna happen...at least not in the Wilderness surrounding Missoula, MT.

 

Lance seems like a [***]. He's also very hypocritical. First of all, does he believe the wilderness to be his own personal sand box? He acts like it's his property. He speaks of our "infringement on [his]recreation experience" but speaks nothing of his infringment on ours. This just makes me mad.

 

*** edited for Steak N Eggs

... but Lance, if you do read this ... read your own comments from the perspective of geocachers (who consider themselves friends of the outdoors) ... you might see that you were very offensive. I don't trek through the outdoors so I can use my GPS ... I thank God I have a GPS so I can trek through the woods.

 

[This message has been edited by DisQuoi (edited 21 February 2002).]

[Guest Ranger Rick]

Lance, What is your problem with others sharing the wilderness? I would rather see geocachers in the woods with their gps units rather than hunters with their guns. Also I make it a point to remove some visible trash from the woods every time I go into them. If people like you didn't bring things to the landfill, maybe that landfill area would eventually turn into a wilderness. Think about it. Lastly, maybe you need a fan in your bathroom too.

[Guest Steak N Eggs]

Cartographic, where/how did you find this "message board"? What those people are saying is going to get some of us fired up. I want to say to all of us is to keep our comments under check. These people might read these threads and could use our comments aginst us so please, If you comment aboutwhat has been "said" keep the personal/individual "comments" to your self....

 

And yes, I AM fired up about it......

 

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"MY gps said it's RIGHT HERE!"

http://www.geogadgets.com

[Guest ErinsWeb]

This is much the same banter that goes on about Mtn Biking, rock climbing, whitewater, ect. There are some (and these are not the majority) that will end up stating that these activities should not be allowed anywhere because they interfere with the minorities enjoyment of the world. (in so many words)

 

Stick to our creed:

 

Leave no trace. Cache in - Trash out.

[Guest jfitzpat]

I'll bet a hundred bucks "Lance" doesn't pack out his paper. He probably doesn't even bury, since he is sure his does not stink...

 

Seriously, Lance is just the flip side of a coin. I've seen cachers here rant about their "right" to cash on "public" land.

 

I think one of the other posts is sound. Land managers _do_ have the ability to stop caching, so cachers need to educate, open polite dialog, and, above all, be respectful, 'no trace' users.

 

-jjf

[Guest jfitzpat]

I'll bet a hundred bucks "Lance" doesn't pack out his paper. He probably doesn't even bury, since he is sure his does not stink...

 

Seriously, Lance is just the flip side of a coin. I've seen cachers here rant about their "right" to cash on "public" land.

 

I think one of the other posts is sound. Land managers _do_ have the ability to stop caching, so cachers need to educate, open polite dialog, and, above all, be respectful, 'no trace' users.

 

-jjf

[Guest bacpac]

My sister works for the US Forest Service. She has seen a few email exchanges among Forest Service folks trying to figure out this Geocaching thing. They are not sure what to think about it, but it sounds like there will be new rules or possibly a ban by the Forest Service.

 

I told her to forward any future coorespondence to me.

[Guest blinddog]

Man, after reading that thread i got a little PO'd. I really don't like when people think land intended for everybody to use is there personal propery. Geocaching aside, this Lance character has definite issue with anybody that goes into his wilderness area!You know you can't please everybody, but the talk about the NFS getting involved has me a little on edge, If they ban National forest, where can you cache, only on private property?

 

[This message has been edited by blinddog (edited 21 February 2002).]

 

[This message has been edited by blinddog (edited 21 February 2002).]

[Guest jon]

You know, the last account I read about this good ol' earth was that it had been here for million's of years so I seriously doubt a few geocachers, mt. bikers, hikers or whatever else goes on will have much of an effect on the place. Mother Nature has done quite well healing her own wounds....

[Guest Steak N Eggs]

sage has been edited by DisQuoi (edited 21 February 2002).]

---

 

Hey, I like that.

 

And thank you...

 

 

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"MY gps said it's RIGHT HERE!"

http://www.geogadgets.com

[Guest Trafcon]

Lance should leave his e-mail so I can send him photos of each of the garbage bags I haul out of any cache site I visit be it a city park, campground (think what he must think of campers) or a wilderness area.

 

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KTF !!! GBWY !!!

[Guest Misguided One]

Has anyone composed a form letter that can be used by cachers, for the purpose of getting permission from City, County,& State, park managers to place caches on "public" land.

 

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Lost? I'm not lost, it's just creative navigation,..........yeah, that's it. Mg1

[Guest Geo Quest]

You know, it's impossible to do anything without offending somebody in some way. Some people won't be happy until it's illegal to even tread on wilderness lands. What I find particularly disturbing is that he says he will actively pursue caches in his area to deliberately remove them.

 

I knew it was too good to last.

 

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"What's the point of going out, we're just going to end up back here anyway"? --Homer Simpson

[Guest Lucias]

What are the chances of the NFS banning geocaching? I just got into the game and it would be a serious bummer to have it end in the next year or so (so many caches to find!). I imagine that chances are low of bans since geocaching does no more harm than cycling, climbing, etc. Still, what are the odds?

 

And even if the NFS did put up a ban, doesn't that still allow state and city parks and lands?

[Guest T-storm]

Also take a look at this thread discussing such a topic. The last post in the thread contains the text of documents I submitted to get permission for hiding a cache on Army Corps of Engineers managed land. It was successful. I am currently waiting to hear back on another cache place at a different ACE project and expect a fairly positive response. I've also written letters to the directors of the parks departments of 3 cities locally. One has been pretty positive toward the concept of caching. The other two didn't bother to respond at all, which tells me that they really don't care much.

 

There is also a dialog going on between some Texas cachers and the state's Dept. of Parks and Wildlife. See this thread to read about it. It seems on a positive track. Existing laws leave room for caching in state parks so long as one gets approval from the park manager for the placement of the cache. They wrote their rules such that property left behind wouldn't be considered abandoned or unattended so long as park management was aware of it ahead of time and didn't refuse permission on other grounds.

 

The more of these successes folks have, the more documentation and examples we can gather to offer those who are opposed to caching on land they manage. Combine this with documentation of "Trash Out" activities and reasonable estimates of the actual number visitors expected based on similar cachers in the region and we can start to look pretty good to many land management agencies.

 

T-storm

 

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http://www.cordianet.com/geocaching

 

[This message has been edited by T-storm (edited 22 February 2002).]

[Guest exConn]

quote:

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Originally posted by Lucias:

What are the chances of the NFS banning geocaching? I just got into the game and it would be a serious bummer to have it end in the next year or so...

---

 

Even if a NFS ban did occur, I don't think you have to worry about Geocaching going away.

 

The earth is a big place and there are way too many creative people here that will find interesting places for a cache.

 

That said, we do need to communicate with the NFS and educate them that we are a responsible group and that this is a responsible game so that bans do not occur...

 

-exConn

 

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What is Project Virginia?

 

[This message has been edited by exConn (edited 22 February 2002).]

[Guest JAMCC47]

Most interesting site. In order to keep it clear and open minded. Anybody that is reading this, reach in your pocket, pull out a coin, and note there are two sides to this object in your hand.

 

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JoseCanUSea

[Guest jfitzpat]

hing like today for most of it's long life. Only for a small portion of earth's history has the place been hospitable to you and me. And, even in that relatively small time period, things have changed dramatically over time.

 

Food for thought: In biology no one, not even the big business toadies, denies that we are in the midst of a massive bio-diversity die off. And no one denies that our out-of-control species is largely responsible.

 

When the debate shifts from 'if' to 'how big' you know you are in trouble. We have ever shrinking pockets of wilderness, being visited by ever increasing numbers of people.

 

Mother nature is resiliant. Given eons, even the toilet we have created will clean up naturally. But it it foolish to think that she is omnipotent.

 

Take the visitors to a minor state park and just have them tromp through your home for one year. Your house would be a wreck, and it is made up largely of sturdier-than-all-natural materials. Leave it alone for long enough, and your distant decendants can come back to a nice pieceful meadow, desert, forest, or whatever, and start over.

 

But, if you don't want to wait for mother nature and you don't want to live in a wreck, you'll have to spend a lot of time and money continously fixing the place up. Once you do, I'll bet you would appreciate the importance of each vistor causing as little damage as humanly possible.

 

-jjf

[Guest jfitzpat]

e in the midst of a massive bio-diversity die off. And no one denies that our out-of-control species is largely responsible.

 

When the debate shifts from 'if' to 'how big' you know you are in trouble. We have ever shrinking pockets of wilderness, being visited by ever increasing numbers of people.

 

Mother nature is resiliant. Given eons, even the toilet we have created will clean up naturally. But it it foolish to think that she is omnipotent.

 

Take the visitors to a minor state park and just have them tromp through your home for one year. Your house would be a wreck, and it is made up largely of sturdier-than-all-natural materials. Leave it alone for long enough, and your distant decendants can come back to a nice pieceful meadow, desert, forest, or whatever, and start over.

 

But, if you don't want to wait for mother nature and you don't want to live in a wreck, you'll have to spend a lot of time and money continously fixing the place up. Once you do, I'll bet you would appreciate the importance of each vistor causing as little damage as humanly possible.

 

-jjf

[Guest Kubbie]

Jeremy, have you gotten any pics from people on your Cache In / Trash Out request? Is there a link to view them?

 

Thanks.

Kubbie

[Guest DisQuoi]

quote:

---

Originally posted by jfitzpat:

... I'll bet you would appreciate the importance of each vistor causing as little damage as humanly possible.

---

 

Do you participate in geocaching?

[Guest jfitzpat]

quote:

---

Originally posted by DisQuoi:

Do you participate in geocaching?

---

 

I let my kids cache with a map and compass (with a GPS for a backup ), but after trying it a couple of times, it doesn't hold that much interest for me. Maybe a 5/5 cache might be more interesting, but if we get out, sans kids, we'll be backpacking or climbing.

 

The kids certainly enjoy the treasure hunt aspect of it though. And I like them improving their outdoor navigational skills. I let them sign the log book, but not take or leave. I also am not comfortable with them logging on a web site until they are older.

 

I take it from your question, you are already worked up and offended. Relax, I've stated loudly and clearly that my preferred outdoor activities (climbing, mountaineering, etc.) are, by nature, higher impact than most caching.

 

I've also stated that it is silly that I can still sink bolts and pound in pitons in Yosemite valley, but others can't play hide-and-seek with a tupperware tub.

 

But, I still object to any implication that mother nature can take of herself and that all this low impact mumbo jumbo is much ado about nothing. I've got sketchbooks of critters that have gone extinct in my lifetime, and the woods I roamed as a child are now strip malls and tract housing.

 

-jjf

[Guest jfitzpat]

quote:

---

Originally posted by DisQuoi:

Do you participate in geocaching?

---

 

I let my kids cache with a map and compass (with a GPS for a backup ), but after trying it a couple of times, it doesn't hold that much interest for me. Maybe a 5/5 cache might be more interesting, but if we get out, sans kids, we'll be backpacking or climbing.

 

The kids certainly enjoy the treasure hunt aspect of it though. And I like them improving their outdoor navigational skills. I let them sign the log book, but not take or leave. I also am not comfortable with them logging on a web site until they are older.

 

I take it from your question, you are already worked up and offended. Relax, I've stated loudly and clearly that my preferred outdoor activities (climbing, mountaineering, etc.) are, by nature, higher impact than most caching.

 

I've also stated that it is silly that I can still sink bolts and pound in pitons in Yosemite valley, but others can't play hide-and-seek with a tupperware tub.

 

But, I still object to any implication that mother nature can take of herself and that all this low impact mumbo jumbo is much ado about nothing. I've got sketchbooks of critters that have gone extinct in my lifetime, and the woods I roamed as a child are now strip malls and tract housing.

 

-jjf

[Guest T-storm]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kubbie:

Jeremy, have you gotten any pics from people on your Cache In / Trash Out request? Is there a link to view them?

---

 

Kubbie--

I guarantee that Jeremy has some trash out pics, 'cause I've sent several! And no, nowhere to view them all. But occasionally others have asked the same question, including here, where you may see a few examples of these pictures.

 

T-storm

 

 

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http://www.cordianet.com/geocaching

[Guest Pote]

The post on that thread by "Lanc" seems to be a troll. But if it is real, we should give our buddy Lance something to do with his time - let him be the one tearing up "his" wilderness looking for 15 or 20 non-existant caches. Who's game? Here is a good starting coordinate for him: N47 04.866 W113 50.370 After he hunts for that ome for a week or so, let's send him here: N46 25.762 W115 02.720. Anybody want to mess w/ lance?

[Guest jon]

quote:

---

Originally posted by jfitzpat:

But, I still object to any implication that mother nature can take of herself and that all this low impact mumbo jumbo is much ado about nothing. I've got sketchbooks of critters that have gone extinct in my lifetime, and the woods I roamed as a child are now strip malls and tract housing.

 

-jjf

---

 

The point I was "attempting to make is that what impact a few (or alot) geocachers, hikers, bikers or climbers make in the woods, is not going to be any more detrimental than what deer, bear or any larger animal would make being on or off the trail & I seriously doubt any of our hobbies will ever be the blame for any animal going extinct.

Most everyone into their own sport feels that their's is better than others & it will always be that way so it's really not worth discussing be we all do it anyway.

 

Strip malls & tract housing?? It would seem they are a necessity being that they are always full & ya gotta' put em' somewhere.

BTW...I'd much rather step on a geocache box than a pile of bear poop!!:-)

Cheers

[Guest blinddog]

POTE , great idea! I bet after the second goose chase Lance will go home with his tail between his legs and give up trying to find any more.

[Guest blinddog]

ind any more.

[Guest blinddog]

ind any more.

[Guest blinddog]

POTE , great idea! I bet after the second goose chase Lance will go home with his tail between his legs and give up trying to find any more.

[Guest TresOkies]

For the most part, that discussion was very rational and I applaud Quinn and JJF for being the voices of reason. Yes, Lance was an ***, but we have a few of those on our forum as well (present company notwithstanding ).

 

I suggest that we behave like adults in this matter. After all, the people on that forum are just like us, in fact, they are us.

 

-E

 

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N35°32.981 W98°34.631

 

[This message has been edited by TresOkies (edited 22 February 2002).]

[Guest TresOkies]

For the most part, that discussion was very rational and I applaud Quinn and JJF for being the voices of reason. Yes, Lance was an ***, but we have a few of those on our forum as well (present company notwithstanding ).

 

I suggest that we behave like adults in this matter. After all, the people on that forum are just like us, in fact, they are us.

 

-E

 

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N35°32.981 W98°34.631

 

[This message has been edited by TresOkies (edited 22 February 2002).]

[Guest Ttepee]

Pote...you the man! ;-) great idea since I'm not remotely near montana

[Guest Ttepee]

Pote...you the man! ;-) great idea since I'm not remotely near montana

[Guest Ttepee]

But on a serious note... you guys are doing a great job of respectably denouncing their power.

[Guest jfitzpat]

quote:

---

Originally posted by jon:

The point I was "attempting to make is that what impact a few (or alot) geocachers, hikers, bikers or climbers make in the woods, is not going to be any more detrimental than what deer, bear or any larger animal would make being on or off the trail & I seriously doubt any of our hobbies will ever be the blame for any animal going extinct.

---

 

Wow. I'm not even sure where to begin. Let's start with sheer numbers. There are about 500,000 black bear and 25,000 grizzly bears in all of North America (though probably no more than 1,000 of the big boys (and girls) inside the continental US, mostly in or near Yellowstone).

 

If you look up just backcountry permits for wilderness areas in the US, you will see that, in terms of sheer numbers, we make a heck of a lot more trips to all but the most remote areas.

 

Most hunters and outdoor enthusiasts can tell you bear are not terribly timid or secretive in terms of leaving sign. But they are still dramatically better natural route finders than most humans. That is why human visitation can be pretty closely estimated with aerial photometrics, but bear and large game generally requires ground sampling.

 

As for 'none of your hobbies', I say, good for you. I tend to stick with the comforts of a modern lifestyle - car, home, synthetics, baby tomatoes from deforested tropics, that sort of thing. If you can avoid the high impact lifestyle, more power to you.

 

As for "always full...", I won't even go there. A sea of bankrupt malls across the US is forcing most urban planners to reconsider the true costs of new development vs. renovation.

 

-jjf

[Guest Lary]

rt does not balloon out of control.

 

Regards,

Lary

[Guest Lary]

ust belong to a sanctioned club to ride anywhere except on your own land. Well, they cleaned up their act, formed a selfpolicing organization, maintain 7000 miles of trails, and are careful to treat the cooperating landowners with respect.

 

Hopefully, we will be responsible, keep a low profile, and hope that our sport does not balloon out of control.

 

Regards,

Lary

[Guest niskibum]

I too am concerned with the impact that geocaching has on the areas due to high traffic. Has anyone considered putting a time limit on how long a cache can be placed in an area. Maybee if we put some regulations on ourselfs other people won't be forced to do so.

 

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If you cache it, they will come.

[Guest Lazyboy]

I'm not nearly as concerned as others. Most caches buried in a forest seldom get more than a dozen visits a year. There are more hunters wandering through the woods than that. Not to mention backpackers and treehuggers in general.

[Guest niskibum]

Just curious where you got your numbers from. Is that an estimate or have you actually counted?

[Guest JamieZ]

quote:

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Originally posted by niskibum:

Has anyone considered putting a time limit on how long a cache can be placed in an area.

---

 

Niskibum...

 

In a way yes. I think we've all agreed that it's the cache owners responsibility to check on the condition of the cache and its surroundings. If the traffic is causing a detrimental effect, the cache should be moved.

 

Unfortunately, many cache owners are not so responsible--at least in my area.

 

This cache for instance. People repeatedly suggest maintenence and a better container, but the owner hasn't even commented. At least one of our more active cachers fixed it up a little, but it appears its gone bad again. Maybe time for me to go out and check on it. Grrr---some cache owners.

 

If the owners check on their caches occasionally (or simply read the logs to get an idea of the condition) it should become clear when the cache needs to be fixed up or moved so that it's no longer affecting the surrounding area.

 

Jamie

[Guest jaw2925]

I think any willing local cacher should remove the above cache. It appears to be abandoned judging by the lack of activity by the cache owner (1 hide, 0 finds in the last year). Unless the owner is operating under another name or is else ways known to be actively caching then it's just a case of somebody trying out the game and quickly losing interest. There's bound to be lots of these kinds of caches around the nation. Maybe post a courtesy log to announce it's impending removal and if no response after a week it should go.

[Guest Steak N Eggs]

quote:

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Originally posted by Lazyboy:

Most caches buried in a forest seldom get more than a dozen visits a year.

---

 

I HOPE most caches are not buried...

 

YIKES..

 

 

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"MY gps said it's RIGHT HERE!"

http://www.geogadgets.com

[Guest Steak N Eggs]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lazyboy:

Most caches buried in a forest seldom get more than a dozen visits a year.

---

 

I HOPE most caches are not buried...

 

YIKES..

 

 

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"MY gps said it's RIGHT HERE!"

http://www.geogadgets.com

[Guest Steak N Eggs]

quote:

---

Originally posted by jaw2925:

I think any willing local cacher should remove the above cache. It appears to be abandoned judging by the lack of activity by the cache owner (1 hide, 0 finds in the last year). Unless the owner is operating under another name or is else ways known to be actively caching then it's just a case of somebody trying out the game and quickly losing interest. There's bound to be lots of these kinds of caches around the nation. Maybe post a courtesy log to announce it's impending removal and if no response after a week it should go.

---

 

Or if it's in a good spot haveing someone adopt it. just a thought......

 

 

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"MY gps said it's RIGHT HERE!"

http://www.geogadgets.com

[Guest exConn]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lazyboy:

I'm not nearly as concerned as others.

---

 

Nor am I.

 

There's no way a couple dozen cachers are going to "wear a trail" to the extent as noted above in my opinion. I mean the Geocaching community is not that big...

 

-exConn

 

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What is Project Virginia?

[Guest jon]

quote:

---

Originally posted by jfitzpat:

As for 'none of your hobbies', I say, good for you. I tend to stick with the comforts of a modern lifestyle - car, home, synthetics, baby tomatoes from deforested tropics, that sort of thing. If you can avoid the high impact lifestyle, more power to you.

-jjf

 

---

How on earth does this pertain to anything I said?