FullOn Posted April 21, 2003 Share Posted April 21, 2003 I need to get some constructive help. There is a Leave No Trace group called the San Gorgonio Wilderness Association that is now threatening to remove geocaches placed in the San Gorgonio Wilderness here in California. Other than getting the owners to change thier caches into members only caches, does anyone have any suggestions? I've already sent a letter to the BLM who technically manages the land, but apparently the NFS actually carries out the day to day management. I'm planning on contacting them tomorrow. Any good suggestions out there? Quote Link to comment
+briansnat Posted April 21, 2003 Share Posted April 21, 2003 First, there is no such thing as "leave no trace". The goal is to leave as little trace as possible. In this respect, most geocachers I know, and geocaches I've found conform to "LNT" ethics. According to their website, the SWGA is not a LNT group. Their quoted mission is "protecting the San Bernardino National Forest". My guess is that you've run into a group of pompous, self-righteous, busybodies, who think their vision of what a national forest should be, must be. It's probable that they are not familiar with geocaching, beyond what they've read in the newspapers, or on websites and usenet groups. Perhaps you can identify the leaders of the anti geocaching campaign and take them out on a cache hunt, to demonstrate the fact that our sport has no more impact on the land than birders, hunters, photographers and hikers do. Since national forests fall under the BLM umbrella, you might want to point them to this memo, which, since I've seen nothing to supersede it, is the official BLM position on geocaching. Educate these pretentious people about the benefits of geocaching. Explain to them that we are not a bunch of yahoos, stopming throught the woods, GPS in hand. We are really outdoors lovers and our ranks include hikers, backpackers, forest rangers, naturalists, trail volunteers, birders, conservationists, environmentalists and even a few LNT advocates. "It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues" -Abraham Lincoln [This message was edited by BrianSnat on April 21, 2003 at 09:47 PM.] Quote Link to comment
solohiker Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 Assuming you have permission of the land owner you can forward a copy of the contact person or document that approves the use of the land for geocaching to the folks at SGW. If you have not obtained permission to place the cache then ... Quote Link to comment
dsandbro Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 The best initial contact will be the Wilderness Manager or equivalent title. That person will most likely refer it up to the District Ranger. This is an excellent opportunity to discuss geocaching in general and wilderness policies in particular. Use your best diplomacy and get the managers to allow caches. Show them the guidelines for cache placement on this website and stress that a cache is not trash nor abandonment of personal property. Forest Service policy is each local unit is to manage their Wilderness according to local needs (and in accordance with the general constraints of the 1964 Wilderness Act). Some Wildernesses allow caches, some do not. Most have no formal written policy yet, so they are allowed by default. This 'lnt' group is making a unilateral decision that caches are not appropriate. That is not their decision to make. Both sides need to respect the decision of the local Forest Service officials. ======================================== "The time has come" the Walrus said "to speak of many things; of shoes and ships and sealing wax, of cabbages and Kings". Quote Link to comment
FullOn Posted April 22, 2003 Author Share Posted April 22, 2003 Excellent suggestions so far. Thank you all very much. I do suspect that the few individuals I've dealt with so far are a bunch of yahoo's, much like the yahoo's that frequent these boards . I have contacted the person listed on the BLM web site as being in charge of the Wilderness area and I'll attempt to contact the NFS rep for the area today. I have not heard back from the BLM yet. Has anyone dealt with the NFS on the abandonment of personal property issue? It seems that this may be the one sticking point and seems to be the rubric that the yahoos are using to justify plundering caches. As to whether they were placed with permission or not, I don't know. They're not my caches. Quote Link to comment
+Zartimus Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 quote:Originally posted by FullOn:I need to get some constructive help. There is a Leave No Trace group called the http://www.sgwa.org/ I looked at their message board. My god what a bunch of forest nazis a few of them seem to be. Dust off your verbal superpowers, I think you're doing good, ignoring the personal attacks and sticking to the issue. We all want to enjoy the wilderness, just in different ways. I think you should go over their heads. Their group has noble intentions, it perhaps needs geocacher or two in the org to open the their rather closed minds to the fact that geocachers believe in some of the very same things. Cache in Trash out is always a good place to start. Quote Link to comment
+Dave_W6DPS Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 This reminds me of a few years ago when some of these self-appointed "gatekeeper" groups were trying to keep families, especially the children, out of wilderness areas. I actually had one of these folks screaming in my face at a designated parking area, about how much damage was being done and how i should be ashamed of myself for daring to bring Boys Scouts into the wilderness area! I am still amazed how some of these organizations can start out to support conservation and access, and be taken over by Eco-Nazis. This is OUR wilderness, river, forest, cave, coastline, etc., and WE HAVE THE RIGHT idea about how WE should use it and YOU should stay out! I also would like to congratulate you on the quality of your posts on their site. About all we can do is try to keep a level head. Nice example! Dave_W6DPS My two cents worth, refunds available on request. (US funds only) Quote Link to comment
+Marky Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 quote:Originally posted by FullOn:Has anyone dealt with the NFS on the abandonment of personal property issue? Geocaching is *not* abandonment of personal property. The property in question (the geocache) is maintained, which is far from being abandoned. (I made a post on the other site stating this.) --Marky "All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer with a backlit GPSr" [This message was edited by Marky on April 22, 2003 at 10:40 AM.] Quote Link to comment
FullOn Posted April 22, 2003 Author Share Posted April 22, 2003 quote: Geocaching is *not* abandonment of personal property. The property in question (the geocache) is maintained, which is far from being abandoned. I totaly agree. I was just wondering if anyone had actually made this argument to any ranger/wilderness manager types and got anywhere with it. I know I'm not going to change this group's mind (they recommend packing out your used toilet paper) but I know that some cachers have made successful contacts with "offical" land managers. Quote Link to comment
+Bloencustoms Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 On their website, they have a full page of GPS coordinates to different attractions in the area. And a link to a nearest caches page entitled "geotrash". "Searching with my good eye closed" Quote Link to comment
dsandbro Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 quote: Geocaching is *not* abandonment of personal property. The property in question (the geocache) is maintained, which is far from being abandoned. 'abandoning personal property' or 'littering' is the weak excuse used by someone fishing for a reason to ban geocaching. Neither one would last in front of a Federal magistrate. Unfortunately, most people just pay the fine instead of fighting a citation. ======================================== "The time has come" the Walrus said "to speak of many things; of shoes and ships and sealing wax, of cabbages and Kings". Quote Link to comment
+Marky Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 quote:Originally posted by FullOn: quote: Geocaching is *not* abandonment of personal property. The property in question (the geocache) is maintained, which is far from being abandoned. I totaly agree. I was just wondering if anyone had actually made this argument to any ranger/wilderness manager types and got anywhere with it. I know I'm not going to change this group's mind (they recommend packing out your used toilet paper) but I know that some cachers have made successful contacts with "offical" land managers. Well, toilet paper is abandoned property, so I can see where some 'activists' might take this view. I 'pack out' my dogs waste, so it's not a big stretch to do the same for humans. However, what we are talking about here is in no way abandoned, and that's the point that needs to be stressed. The example I used on the other board was of a trailmap kiosk. That is 'trash' left out in the wilderness, but I don't think any of them would have any complaints about it. Geocaches are maintained, and if there is a problem with the container or contents, it gets fixed by the cache owner or other geocachers. It is not trash in any way, shape or form (in my opinion). We even have a website for keeping track of them!!! --Marky "All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer with a backlit GPSr" Quote Link to comment
+StarshipTrooper Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 Man, I haven't seen a website so infested with pop-up ads in a long time! I feel for you man. You are dealing with birkenstockwearingnaturenazis who will never budge in their attitude. Your only hope is if the managers approve. Otherwise you better stick to virtuals. In fact - you might want to consider virts anyway, since threats have been made against the caches. Oh, you might virt some of the neatest "secret spots" and make sure the naturenazis know why you did it. That is - if you feel particularly nasty. Not that I think these spots should be trashed, by any means. It's just that these kind of folks tend to be very selfish about their favorite special place, even if their attitude backfires. And if they whine over the virts, it shows their true colors... Quote Link to comment
+StarshipTrooper Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 Another thought occurred to me... As oposed to trail markers and kiosks - and the trail themselves, for that matter -- If you hide a cache well (and who here doesn't know how to do that?), the LNTs would never know it was there, and they would have nothing to complain about. What really bugs them is that they see evidence (the cache page) that it is there. I bet you dollars to doughnuts that some of those same folks have cached items there themselves, and kept it to themselves - and no one EVER complained about any of those specific caches. Kinda make you go "hmmmmm", doesn't it? Quote Link to comment
+GeneralBracket Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 quote:I looked at their message board. My god what a bunch of forest nazis a few of them seem to be. I browsed those message boards. I almost forgot how angry some jack@sses out there on the Internet can make me. Ahhhh.. I remember the days when information flowed much more slowly and you didn't have to hear things you didn't like. The days when word of mouth reshaped a story so as to take the edge off. <sigh> The days when ignorance was a virtue. When PC Cops roamed the land and not a feeling was hurt. The days when... umm.. err.. <ahem> Nevermind. Quote Link to comment
FullOn Posted April 22, 2003 Author Share Posted April 22, 2003 Apparently, they don't want to discuss geocaching on thier boards over there. They have deleted all the posts related to geocaching and have asked that we refrain from making any more posts there. Let's play nice and let it die. We'll be going through official channels to try to come to a good resolution. Unfortunately one cache has already bit the dust up there - San Gorgonio 1/2 way [This message was edited by FullOn on April 22, 2003 at 04:09 PM.] Quote Link to comment
+briansnat Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 I can't believe they deleted everything! Gosh, after I spent an hour doing research to debunk what one of the guys had to say. I think the problem was that any rational person who read the debate, would have seen that we were winning. "It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues" -Abraham Lincoln Quote Link to comment
+ErSamin Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 quote:Originally posted by StarshipTrooper:Another thought occurred to me... As oposed to trail markers and kiosks - and the trail themselves, for that matter -- If you hide a cache well (and who here doesn't know how to do that?), the LNTs would never know it was there, and they would have nothing to complain about. What really bugs them is that they see evidence (the cache page) that it is there. I bet you dollars to doughnuts that some of those same folks have cached items there themselves, and kept it to themselves - and no one EVER complained about any of those specific caches. Kinda make you go "hmmmmm", doesn't it? In addition to the above, make these caches 'Members Only'; that way the Nature-Nazi can't go on this site and find the coordinates...since I assume that they also have GPSr's? * At least they would have to contribute to the geocaching community (via their $35.00) before they could perform their 'cache sterilization' "Could be worse...could be raining" Quote Link to comment
+Marky Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 quote:Originally posted by ErSamin:In addition to the above, make these caches 'Members Only'; that way the Nature-Nazi can't go on this site and find the coordinates...since I assume that they also have GPSr's? * At least they would have to contribute to the geocaching community (via their $35.00) before they could perform their 'cache sterilization' Another thought, would be for Kablooey to go place some puzzle caches down there. That would drive them Krazy. --Marky "All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer with a backlit GPSr" Quote Link to comment
+Zartimus Posted April 24, 2003 Share Posted April 24, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Marky:Another thought, would be for Kablooey to go place some puzzle caches down there. That would drive them Krazy. --Marky Now there's an idea! Quote Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted April 24, 2003 Share Posted April 24, 2003 Once that cache is there with permission it is theft for them to take it. Without that permission... ===================== Wherever you go there you are. Quote Link to comment
+carivercpl Posted May 6, 2003 Share Posted May 6, 2003 Well the cache that was in the area, has been turned into a virt...and now they have a new board they hang out onhttp://pub41.bravenet.com/forum/show.php?usernum=3438579898&cpv=1 Now they have a station ranger saying...Just spoke to Bob Wood, district recreation officer for the San Bernardino National Forest Service. He has stated that there are no actual CFC provisons except the current littering CFC LAW. that prevents geocaching from happening in the entire San Bernardino National Forest and San Gorgonio Wilderness. So All Caches that are in the San Bernardino National Forest are illegal. I did mention Virtual Caches and he did like that idea. Now that is coming from a ranger...So thats why I am going to chat witha Dist. Head Life Thru Geocaching...Geocaching Thru Life Quote Link to comment
+Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking Posted May 6, 2003 Share Posted May 6, 2003 Arizona had some problems like this. I don't remember too much of the details. Basically, wilderness areas are off limits to us in Arizona and they used the abandoned property rule. Their reasoning was the need to protect wilderness areas and the environmental impact of geocaching. (Don't get you dander up, my memory may be faulty on this.) Some of the caches were turned into virtuals. The wilderness personel were the ones who removed the caches, not some fanatical group of busybodies. Contact azgeocaching to get the details. They'll at least be able to direct you to someone involved with the problem. As my cache partner and husband would say "A few doses of Metamucil will fix their problems." Quote Link to comment
+Sissy-n-CR Posted May 6, 2003 Share Posted May 6, 2003 quote:Originally posted by carivercpl:...and now they have a new board they hang out ... That actually looks like a different group. The other board is still going and both homepage buttons take you to different places. On an interesting side note, the SGWA has a page [HERE] listing their own virts! Only they just don't call them virtual caches, just "coordinates." Hmmm... CR Quote Link to comment
dsandbro Posted May 6, 2003 Share Posted May 6, 2003 Anyone else note the similarity between the arguments here and on the anti-cave thread? You see the same arguments against mountain bikes on hiking websites, SUV's on environmental sites, etc. ======================================== "The time has come" the Walrus said "to speak of many things; of shoes and ships and sealing wax, of cabbages and Kings". Quote Link to comment
+Team GPSaxophone Posted May 6, 2003 Share Posted May 6, 2003 Next time I'm caught using my ATV in a wilderness area, I'll claim to be a caver. When I'm caught marking cave locations on my GPS, I'll claim I'm with the LNT group. They'll start fighting each other instead of us Quote Link to comment
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