I've been told to remove my Cache :(

April 16, 2003

Bummer, I just got this email concerning my cache Glacier Morain;

<<Hi--

My name is Susan Van Der Bosch. I am Vice-President of the Long Grove Park District. We are requesting that you remove the cach from our nature preserve known as the Reed-Turner Woodland. We appreciate your comments about the Woodlands and like having people visit us. However, the Woodlands is a nature preserve and game playing is inappropriate in that facility. At this time of year young plants are very fragile. We have some endangered species we need to protect. Unfortunately, not everyone stays on the trails. Forest Preserves are different from Nature Preserves and the laws governing their use are much more stingent. Thank you in advance.

If you have any questions please call me.

Susan Van Der Bosch

Long Grove Park District>>

The thing is I asked for permission (and got it) when I placed the cache. Apparently they changed their minds. Also, I purposely placed the cache so it can be logged without leaving the trail. (the cache itslef is an altoids tin(it's hidden in a fallen log which actually borders a foot trail. I don't understand the logic of placing foot trails (and bridges) and encouraging people to visit the park and then turning around and implying they DON'T want people to visit. I think the phrase "game playing is inappropriate" says it all. Oh well...

I'm not going to bother fighting this one. I'm sure her concerns are valid and I don't want to give geocaching a black eye. But since there are a LOT of caches in local Nature Preserves this could be the start of a trend.

Jolly R. Blackburn

http://kenzerco.com

April 16, 2003

Why not tell her what you just shared with us?Surely she wouldn't mind justifying the change of policy. I'd like to know why myself....

~ Honest Value Never Fails ~

April 16, 2003

I agree with Dawgies. I wouldn't necessarily fight the judgement, but simply say you would be happy to move it . But I think you should also state that you gained permission (and who from), and ask for what reasons the situation has changed.

Oh, and let us all know what happens, of course.

Just my two pennies worth.

------

An it harm none, do what ye will

April 16, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Dawgies:
Why not tell her what you just shared with us?Surely she wouldn't mind justifying the change of policy. I'd like to know why myself....

~ Honest Value Never Fails ~

To be sure I sent her a nice letter explaining geocaching and that I felt she was wrong. In my cache report I had stated no less than FOUR TIMES not to leave the trail and the fact that the cache could be logged without doing so. I encouraged her to educate herself about the hobby.

Since I placed the cache 31 people visited this seldomly visited preserve. ALL of them (some from as far away as Candada) commente on how beautiful the trails were. I'm sure the increase in visitors is what tipped them off.

This preserve really is in an out of the way place virtually hidden on a side road.

Jolly R. Blackburn

http://kenzerco.com

April 16, 2003

Okay, I'm removing the PHYSICAL cache and making the cache a VIRUTAL. Afterall, it IS a public facility with improved foot trails (and even trail brochures/maps at the parking area).

So I think I'll mark this one down as a draw.

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=36865&Nocache=0.7055475

Jolly R. Blackburn

http://kenzerco.com

1.6k · April 16, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jolly B Good:
Okay, I'm removing the PHYSICAL cache and making the cache a VIRUTAL.

Not so fast!

We are in the same boat, except for the fact we've not been asked to remove it--yet. The policy change went to if it's found by personell it'll be considered lost property and brought in. We, too, had permission AND the park manager gave us ideas where to put it. But the policy change has come from county head and there's not much the park manager can do.

However, seeings how at least in our case the problem is a physical object, I've thought about leaving the cache itself behind the counter--locked. We'd have to modify the puzzle to create a combination to a lock. It would force the hunter to tour the park still and the park wouldn't have to worry about the people going off-trail.

And, yes, the office open during park hours.

See if you can swing that!

CR

April 16, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Sissy-n-CR:

quote:
Originally posted by Jolly B Good:
Okay, I'm removing the PHYSICAL cache and making the cache a VIRUTAL.

Not so fast!

We are in the same boat, except for the fact we've not been asked to remove it--yet. The policy change went to if it's found by personell it'll be considered lost property and brought in. We, too, had permission AND the park manager gave us ideas where to put it. But the policy change has come from county head and there's not much the park manager can do.

However, seeings how at least in our case the problem is a physical object, I've thought about leaving the cache itself behind the counter--locked. We'd have to modify the puzzle to create a combination to a lock. It would force the hunter to tour the park still _and_ the park wouldn't have to worry about the people going off-trail.

And, yes, the office open during park hours.

See if you can swing that!

CR

http://img.Groundspeak.com/user/72057_2000.gif

That's a great idea. Unfortuantely this preserve has no office or on-site facilities (just a community center which can be rented/reserved.

Jolly R. Blackburn

http://kenzerco.com

1.6k · April 16, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jolly B Good:
Unfortuantely this preserve has no office or on-site facilities (just a community center which can be rented/reserved.

Bummer!

I'd suggest a wooden box attached to the side of the building or something along those lines, but I doubt they'd go for it.

CR

April 16, 2003

Austin, Texas has a similar policy, and the local geocachers went through this same situation about a year and a half ago. What it finally boiled down to is the understood policy that the Nature Preserves governed by the city of Austin (and Travis county?) are off limits to physical caches (similar reasons.. rules in the preserves state to stay on the paths, fragile environment, etc), but the city parks are fine with physical caches. We do have a lot of virtuals in the preserves, though. As a geocaching community, we have a good relationship with the county and city park system, and are trying to keep it that way.

1.3k · April 16, 2003

In this case, It doesn't seem that the cache as originally placed would be any more damaging than just walking through the trail. If the area is that sensitive, there shouldn't be a trail. I wonder if two hikers would be run off for playing chess in the middle of a trail, since "games" are inappropriate activity for parks now. The letter seems to say, "Come visit our park, but don't have any kind of fun we didn't think of, and can't take credit for. Have a nice day!"

"Searching with my good eye closed"

38.2k · April 16, 2003

quote:
"game playing is inappropriate"

Which is one of the reasons I prefer not to call geocaching a game. I've edited my "geocaching letters" and switched any game reference to sport. I also call it a sport when discussing it with friends, the media and the authorities.

To me the term "game" suggests something frivolous, while "sport" sounds like a more serious activity.

Perhaps if you met with her and offered to take her to the cache site to show that it isn't impacting the surroundings, it may make a difference.

"It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues" -Abraham Lincoln

April 16, 2003

The letter you recieved stated 'At this time of year young plants are very fragile.' If the concern is mainly spring ephemerals, perhaps you could temporarily archive the cache for a month until the plants have gone dormant again.

RichardMoore

www.geocities.com/richardsrunaway

April 16, 2003

I experienced the same situation with a forest preserve in my area. I made a presentation about the sport and "sold" them on the benefits.

As a result we were asked to relocate a couple of caches that were in sensitive spots and the max number of caches in the preserve was capped.

The preserve manager found all the caches with her GPS and encourages employees to do the same whenever they need to escape the office.

Members of the geocaching communitee have helped the preserve with trail maintenance and a trail relocation project. We have been invited to conduct a summer geocaching class for middle school students. The preserve manager has listed "geocaching" among the uses the preserve supports and is hoping that will help her on a grant application that's scored on the diverse uses the park gets. One of our monthly geocaching association meetings was held at the facility, with the preserve manager speaking to the group about the park. So it's a win-win relationship.

I'm afraid if we had simply replaced a physical cache with a virtual cache that's all that would ever be allowed in that park and the same negative perceptions concerning geocaching would have remained.

~erik

April 16, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by ~erik~:
I experienced the same situation with a forest preserve in my area. I made a presentation about the sport and "sold" them on the benefits.

It sounds like you encountered some open and forward thinking people among the park staff. I agree that it is most probably an 'education' issue and most of the people in a position to make a decision are unframiliar with the concept of what 'geocaching' is. Getting the idea across to them if they are willing to listen is certainly the way to go.

That is a great departure from the other types I have read about in the forums, those park managers who seem to indicate by their actions that they would prefer very high electrified fences surrounding 'their' forests and that mammels, large and small, should stay out lest they bend a blade of grass.

There are worse people than geocachers out there that they should worry about. I think most of us are more up on park rules than your standard human being.

2.6k · April 16, 2003

Well, at least they contacted you instead of just taking it on their own.

Why not invite the person to go to the site with you so you can 1) show her how geocaching works, 2) see what kind of impact the cache has had on the suroundings.

george

Pedal until your legs cramp up and then pedal some more.

April 16, 2003

quote:

So I think I'll mark this one down as a draw.

Good man, I think you have done good for this hobby and its name.

Where you all at?

April 16, 2003

I would thank her for bringing the concerns to your attention, and point out that it was placed with 'name_of_whomever_approved_placement' with those considerations in mind.

Would it be OK to make it inactive until new plant growth is over with? When would be a safe time to re-activate it?

Usually the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing, or doesn't care. If it's brought to her attention that it was authorized to begin with, and you support her concerns--all might be good!

(You might want to first remove it, and tell her you have but wish to make it active again at the time she OK's...)

I don't think the final nail is in the coffin yet!

Hope this helps,

Randy

PS: Don't use the words "game", "sport" or "hobby"--instead forward copies of the positive comments your cache visitors have made about the place.

1.3k · April 16, 2003

From reading her letter, I gather that she has visited the cache page. She mentions comments about the park. It may be that she did not learn of the cache from whoever gave you permission to place it, and had no idea that permission was granted. I am concerned that there is some kind of circulation among park service employees and volunteers about caching. It would be great to find out where they are getting their information about caching from.

"Searching with my good eye closed"

April 16, 2003

Hi, Jolly-

I'm one of the 31- We went during their <open house> on Apple fest weekend, and even though town was bustling, there were plenty of muffins left at the preserve. No one that I know had ever been to that park, even the brownie leader was ignorant of it's existence.

Have you been lately to check out the cache? did somebody go off trailing and bring attention to themselves? If it would help your cause to have her meet some nice family type cachers or have us volunteer a couple of hours, let me know and my little people and I will be at your service.

Thanks again for placing caches-

charlotte of bloomcru

April 17, 2003

Jolly, what would the Knights do? I believe the answer is "waste her with my crossbow"!

PS, no flames please, it's a KODT joke.

Make a sanity check.

May 8, 2003

Here's an Update on the situation. Looks like a virtual cache in this situation was the best route to go.

<<HI Jolly--

Thank you for your quick response. I am sorry that you misunderstood my e-mail. We want people tp visit our preserve--it is, after all, a park. But it is primarily a nature preserve. We have people visiting all the time from universities, schools and conservation groups. It is pristine, and one of the few untouched preserves in the state. It has never been farmed or disturbed and so is regarded as a treasure. We have classes there for school children and scouts and have recieved grants for restoration work where erosion has occured. Our trails are chipped rather than being paved to protect the habitation. Our volunteers burn, chip and remove debris regularly.

Because no pets, bikes or cross-country skiing is allowed, we do not get the usual amount of hikers that are found in Forest Preserves. The woman whose family has been so generous lives adjacent to the property and watches it carefully. Your people who were geocaching caused no damage and are most welcome to enjoy the park. I hope they all return--this time of year is most dramatic. As nature will, to protect her handiwork, she has also provided poison oak and ivy which is off trail, but another rreason we dicourage the uninitiated from random exploration. GPDs have been known to be inaccurate at times which might encourage enthusiastic "hunters" to go off trail, even tho you and we have pointed out that misdemeanor. Thank you again and do please return.

Regards,

Susan >>

Jolly R. Blackburn

http://kenzerco.com

9.5k · May 8, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by BloenCustoms:
In this case, It doesn't seem that the cache as originally placed would be any more damaging than just walking through the trail. If the area is that sensitive, there shouldn't _be_ a trail. I wonder if two hikers would be run off for playing chess in the middle of a trail, since "games" are inappropriate activity for parks now. The letter seems to say, "Come visit our park, but don't have any kind of fun we didn't think of, and can't take credit for. Have a nice day!"

http://angelfire.com/pro/bloen/images/eyes.GIF

"Searching with my good eye closed"

That's not entirely true. Even though the area is sensitive, visitors are encouraged and the established paths allow everybody to enjoy the sensitive area from the same perspective.

Here in the NW, there are many many places like that and even in State Parks, the hiker is encouraged to stay on the established path merely to help protect a sensitive plant germane to the area even though the area itself is not considered to be endangered protected.

I would say take it in stride as we all know government is all about change according to the political winds of the time. Be grateful that every four years, you are encouraged to join in overthrowing our government. In essence, if you don't like the policy change, vote the scoundrel out.

Cheers!

TL

May 8, 2003

<controversial post> I am well aware that by writing this I am opening myself up to being flamed to a crisp. So be it. I am not going to be able to put in a short note exactly what I mean so I accept that some will understand and some will react with heat.

Thing one: I believe that, in the main, damage done by geo-cachers will not hurt nature in any way that will not recover.

Thing two: I really resent situations where plants come before people. So, the 'lesser spotted bogwart' is an endangered plant? Sample it and move it. Grow it somewhere else or fence it in.

Thing three: Walking over the 'bogwart' and crushing it's little leaves is interfering with nature they tell us. If a deer eats it, how about that? Perhaps nature doesn't want it there anymore and needs man to get in and trample it?

Thing four: What is the use of the silly little plant anyhow? If it can't look after its self, well, ummmmm.....

OK! I'll stop now. This was just a pretty small post on the subject of 'Screw The Whales - Save The People...'

</controversial post>

Only nuts eat squirrels.....

Snake.

5.9k · May 8, 2003

You won't get flamed by me.

Jolly, if I send you an email telling you to remove your cache, would you? So what make you (or her) think she has the authority to do so? I would look lot deeper into this before I simply rolled over and presented. You have (not had) permission to hide there. She may be some overeactive lowlevel park flunky who cleans the toilets. Less people in the park mean cleaner toilets between time.

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

20.7k · May 8, 2003

I actually agree with Criminal (again!). My advice is to contact the individual who initially gave you permission.

1.6k · May 8, 2003

Well, in his first post, Jolly quoted her as saying she's the vice-president. Not much higher than that except president or some kind of board of directors.

If the person that originally gave the permission is below her (likely) then she can over-ride that permission.

I say cultivate her as a friend of caching and she may allow extensive use of more "off-trail" groups in other parks. I know the parks around here run from parks that allow practically anything to one that is a strict no-no to step off trail. (I have a cache in the later!)

I don't think getting belligerent with the Vice-President of the Long Grove Park District is a prudent course of action.

Heck, she might even get excited if you can set up a virtual that shows off the park! I'd point out, though, that virts are the last resort and ask if there are spots in other parks where physical caches would work.

CR

6.5k · May 8, 2003

quote:
OK! I'll stop now. This was just a pretty small post on the subject of 'Screw The Whales - Save The People...'

Ithink I saw this on the bumper sticker thread I started a while back:

Nuke the Gay Whales!

These changes in latitudes, changes in attitudes;

Nothing remains quite the same.

Through all of the islands and all of the highlands,

If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane

May 8, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Bug and Snake:

Thing two: I really resent situations where plants come before people. So, the 'lesser spotted bogwart' is an endangered plant? Sample it and move it. Grow it somewhere else or fence it in.

Um, they did 'fence it in'. That's the purpose of the nature preserve. So now that they have set aside this area to preserve the natural environment, you want them to change that.

So let's say the powers that be did so, just for you. Then you or someone else would want to use the new area and say, 'Why are you putting plants before people? Move it somewhere else!' so they do, then someone comes along and wants to use that location for another purpose...

We're going to run out of places to move the plants to if we follow your line of thinking.

Ron/yumitori

May 8, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Bug and Snake:

Thing two: I really resent situations where plants come before people. So, the 'lesser spotted bogwart' is an endangered plant? Sample it and move it. Grow it somewhere else or fence it in.

Thing three: Walking over the 'bogwart' and crushing it's little leaves is interfering with nature they tell us. If a deer eats it, how about that? Perhaps nature doesn't want it there anymore and needs man to get in and trample it?

Thing four: What is the use of the silly little plant anyhow? If it can't look after its self, well, ummmmm.....

By any chance do you work for the BIA? just curious

May 8, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by yumitori:

quote:
Originally posted by Bug and Snake:

Thing two: I really resent situations where plants come before people. So, the 'lesser spotted bogwart' is an endangered plant? Sample it and move it. Grow it somewhere else or fence it in.

Um, they did 'fence it in'. That's the purpose of the nature preserve. So now that they have set aside this area to preserve the natural environment, you want them to change that.

So let's say the powers that be did so, just for you. Then you or someone else would want to use the new area and say, 'Why are you putting plants before people? Move it somewhere else!' so they do, then someone comes along and wants to use that location for another purpose...

We're going to run out of places to move the plants to if we follow your line of thinking.

Ron/yumitori

Had the cache in question not been given the OK at the start I would not have made that post. I suspect that had the area been literally fenced in the cacher would not even have dreamed of placing the cache there to start with.

I am suggesting that if there is a plant that is so 'must have' then it is in the wrong place. If I continue along the path that you have assigned to me, and if that extrapolation were true, then we would have people in zoos shooting the animals.....

May 8, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Trailwalker2:

By any chance do you work for the BIA? just curious

Ummmmmm, well, I didn't (don't) know what you meant there so I Googled.....

Brick Industry Association - BIA

Bord Bia - the Irish Food Board

BIA Financial Network, Inc.

BIA Arbeitsschutz, Forschung, Prüfung

The BioIndustry Association

Brain Injury Association of America

Didn't think it was any of those, and HOPED it wasn't the last one, you were referring to. Then I found www.doi.gov/bureau-indian-affairs.

Not that any of it matters really - I don't work for any person or organisation with those initials.

Regards.....

May 8, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Bug and Snake:

Had the cache in question not been given the OK at the start I would not have made that post. I suspect that had the area been literally fenced in the cacher would not even have dreamed of placing the cache there to start with.

Haven't hunted in the same areas as I have I guess. I imagine that Joll B Good was as responsible as possible, but not every geocacher shows the same concern. And since we don't know who gave the original permission, it may simply be a case where an underling did not realize the potential for damage.

quote:
I am suggesting that if there is a plant that is so 'must have' then it is in the wrong place. If I continue along the path that you have assigned to me, and if that extrapolation were true, then we would have people in zoos shooting the animals.....

I'm still confused - if a nature preserve isn't the correct place for a rare plant, where is?

Ron/yumitori

2.3k · May 8, 2003

In my basement, with the windows aluminum foiled over and the hydros on...

Just kidding....

(Knock, knock)

Uh oh.

May 8, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by yumitori:

I'm still confused - if a nature preserve isn't the correct place for a rare plant, where is?

Ron/yumitori

Perhaps in a greenhouse somewhere. At a university? I think the whole point of what I was saying is that if there is a place where 'people' can leave the paths then the plant is in the wrong place. If ANY plant has a REAL value then it needs to be protected in an active way. Allowing it to be in a 'place of public access' where it's existance is fragile enough to cause PEOPLE to be restricted is perhaps less than the right way to deal with things.

May 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:
You won't get flamed by me.

Jolly, if I send you an email telling you to remove your cache, would you? So what make you (or her) think she has the authority to do so? I would look lot deeper into this before I simply rolled over and presented. You have (not had) permission to hide there. She may be some overeactive lowlevel park flunky who cleans the toilets. Less people in the park mean cleaner toilets between time.

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

Here's my take on the situation. The lady was courteous and took the time to explain the situation. I could have easily gotten into a shouting match with her but I calmly explained my position and the doors of communication are open. She even wrote back to ensure me that I was 'welcome' to come back.

Yes she may be misinformed and basing her concerns on rumors she's heard of "GPDs" as she called them but so far she seems to be open to discussion. I take that as a positive sign.

I'd much rather work with her and educate her on geocaching than to be be combative and possibly alienate her and her office. If that means removing my cache and showing her a little respect while we work things out -- I have no problem with that.

So far she seems to have a favorable impression of the geocachers who have visited the park. I think diplomacy is the best route here.

Jolly R. Blackburn

http://kenzerco.com

1.6k · May 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jolly B Good:
So far she seems to have a favorable impression of the geocachers who have visited the park. I think diplomacy is the best route here.

That's good! Keep us posted. This could be a good example for future hiders that run into the same problem.

CR

May 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Bug and Snake:

Perhaps in a greenhouse somewhere. At a university? I think the whole point of what I was saying is that if there is a place where 'people' can leave the paths then the plant is in the wrong place. If ANY plant has a REAL value then it needs to be protected in an active way. Allowing it to be in a 'place of public access' where it's existance is fragile enough to cause PEOPLE to be restricted is perhaps less than the right way to deal with things.

Strange attitude. Removing nature from the natural world is counter-intuitive. We'll end up with nothing but city parks that way.

Consider an ample - an interpretive trail is created in an alpine environment to make its beauty accessible to the public. Straying from the trail will damage the fragile area and destroy the very plants people are coming to see. Making the same plants available in a controlled environment like a greenhouse is hardly comparable.

From Jolly B Good's reports, it sounds as though the preserve's primary purpose is to protect the local habitat, with recreational visits as a secondary one. Want to guess which will be restricted if they come into conflict?

Still, there should be places in the preserve that will support a cache, without endangering the flora. Best of luck working things out, Jolly.

Ron/yumitori

I've been told to remove my Cache :(

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