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Salvelinus

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quote:
I think it's pretty clear that their little hissy fit has far more to do with their elitism than with any actual concern for the cave in question.

 

You are entitled to your opinion but it is not so clear to me. Perhaps my judgement has been clouded by the fact that I have actually seen all of the good work that these "jerks" have done at Tytoona Cave.

 

I reiterate that there IS a difference between the vague location information on their website and the very specific location information provided by a cache page (virtual or otherwise). It is their position that this information published on the internet might attract unwanted attention to the cave. They are not just concerned about geocachers. This information could be used by anyone including the party crowd which has done great damage to the cave and preserve area.

 

I do not have the wisdom to know if they are right or wrong about the potential for a geocache to create new problems at Tytoona Cave but I will not presume to know better than they how to protect THEIR cave that they have worked so hard to preserve.

 

Johnny

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quote:
Originally posted by Rubbertoe:

How is it that you come to that conclusion? I read the same letter as you did, I assume - and almost all of it seemed reasonable to me.


 

OK. I often hesitate to help folks with their reading comprehension, but you seem sincere. Let's identify particular items from various letters that I found offensive.

 

quote:

I also feel that Geo Caching in caves is a hobby that exploits caves and has nothing to do with any conservation practices or particular cave interest.


 

Translation: those nasty geocachers have no concern for the sanctity of our cave.

 

quote:

I would like to speak as a member of the caving community in saying that we strive very hard to keep caves in a natural state. Often it requires gating and physically keeping people out. We even limit our own visitation to many caves due to the sensitive nature of the environment (bats or formations, for instance).


 

Note that they even limit their own visitation of caves to protect them. Note the implication that the caving community has some special right to the caves, and how impressed they are by their own restraint.

 

Naturally, someone with this attitude reels in horror at the thought of the Unwashed Masses visiting their cave!

 

Note that neither of these examples includes Czmor's repeated threats to prosecute; those threats constituted about a half of the original letter.

 

I find it difficult to believe that you are able to read those letters and consider them "reasonable."

 

Perhaps, given that your opinion of your fellow geocachers is so poor, you might not want to be involved with the activity. It would certainly reduce the load on the forums server.

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Posting the coordinates of where the cave is will definately let more people know where it is, but word of mouth would spread that information as well.

 

Let's say everyone in the world did know where that cave was. Probably 99.9% of those people wouldn't care enough to visit anyway.

 

Only the interested would want to see it. Those interested enough will find out where it is whether it's from the internet or by word of mouth.

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quote:
Originally posted by Rubbertoe:

 

I'm curious - what exactly is the result you expect if people do this? I'm not sure I'm understand the goal of doing that.


 

1. It would show them that geocachers, as members of the general public, understand that they have the same rights of visitation as any other member of the general public ... and some of those who visit may have been potential members or contributors to their group.

 

2. It would provide the owners/controllers of the cave a practical demonstration that geocachers are at least as responsible as other visiting members from the general population, because the geocachers would undoubtedly leave the area in as-good or better condition than they found it.

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quote:
Originally posted by Rubbertoe:

And the argument about the cave being open to the public misses one point... the caves are open to the public, and the reason for people going there was to see the caves. Place a cache there without permission brings a whole new group of people to the location - with their main concern not being the caves, but instead finding a geocache. Any land manager would be wise to have concerns about this.


 

This experience has been a valuable lesson in cache placement. A few points..

 

"Vandals" already know where the cave is and they didn't have a GPS.

 

Putting the "Cavers" on the defensive is not a good strategy to developing a relationship of trust for future cooperation.

 

Humans/groups are extremely territorial, protective and possesive about most everything, what's the surprise? Acceptance/permission may require following certain arbitrary customs and rules by whatever group is power. There's a lot more to life than everyone having access to the coordinates.

 

There's a tendancy to push back when threatened by legal BS. I'd say the reputation and integrity of Geocaching, as displyed by the cache owner, in dealing with this other group is more important, than trying to win a challenge or "get even".

 

Maybe just saying sorry, no harm intended and delisting the cache coordinates wouldn't be a bad start.

 

There other secrets more worthy of a fight, IMO, than any hidden place.

 

Hey, it's just a hole in the ground after allicon_smile.gif

----------

Greenjeens

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quote:
Originally posted by Rubbertoe:

And the argument about the cave being open to the public misses one point... the caves are open to the public, and the reason for people going there was to see the caves. Place a cache there without permission brings a whole new group of people to the location - with their main concern not being the caves, but instead finding a geocache. Any land manager would be wise to have concerns about this.


 

This experience has been a valuable lesson in cache placement. A few points..

 

"Vandals" already know where the cave is and they didn't have a GPS.

 

Putting the "Cavers" on the defensive is not a good strategy to developing a relationship of trust for future cooperation.

 

Humans/groups are extremely territorial, protective and possesive about most everything, what's the surprise? Acceptance/permission may require following certain arbitrary customs and rules by whatever group is power. There's a lot more to life than everyone having access to the coordinates.

 

There's a tendancy to push back when threatened by legal BS. I'd say the reputation and integrity of Geocaching, as displyed by the cache owner, in dealing with this other group is more important, than trying to win a challenge or "get even".

 

Maybe just saying sorry, no harm intended and delisting the cache coordinates wouldn't be a bad start.

 

There other secrets more worthy of a fight, IMO, than any hidden place.

 

Hey, it's just a hole in the ground after allicon_smile.gif

----------

Greenjeens

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quote:
Originally posted by Rubbertoe:

And the argument about the cave being open to the public misses one point... the caves are open to the public, and the reason for people going there was to see the caves. Place a cache there without permission brings a whole new group of people to the location - with their main concern not being the caves, but instead finding a geocache. Any land manager would be wise to have concerns about this.


 

This experience has been a valuable lesson in cache placement. A few points..

 

"Vandals" already know where the cave is and they didn't have a GPS.

 

Putting the "Cavers" on the defensive is not a good strategy to developing a relationship of trust for future cooperation.

 

Humans/groups are extremely territorial, protective and possesive about most everything, what's the surprise? Acceptance/permission may require following certain arbitrary customs and rules by whatever group is power. There's a lot more to life than everyone having access to the coordinates.

 

There's a tendancy to push back when threatened by legal BS. I'd say the reputation and integrity of Geocaching, as displyed by the cache owner, in dealing with this other group is more important, than trying to win a challenge or "get even".

 

Maybe just saying sorry, no harm intended and delisting the cache coordinates wouldn't be a bad start.

 

There other secrets more worthy of a fight, IMO, than any hidden place.

 

Hey, it's just a hole in the ground after all:)

----------

Greenjeens

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quote:
Originally posted by fizzymagic:

Perhaps, given that your opinion of your fellow geocachers is so poor, you might not want to be involved with the activity. It would certainly reduce the load on the forums server.


 

That's nice... I read through your post and was impressed the someone was replying without flaming or anything, then you end it with a snotty little jab. Nice. icon_rolleyes.gif

 

And I don't descriminate - I don't think people are doing inconsiderate things BECAUSE they are geocachers. I have a pretty low opinion of people in general, and some of them just happen to be geocachers as well. If you live in an area where everyone is nice, and always polite to each other - then goody for you. But I've SEEN what damage can be done by geocachers - at MY caches, and at caches I've found. Of course, most geocachers aren't "bad" folks, I know that. icon_smile.gif

 

Like I've said - if any of my hidden caches are doing damage to an area, I'll remove them. And why is everyone so quick to just quit when they don't agree with something. I've posted my opinions about some geocachers, and more than a few people have basically said "well if you don't like it, quit."

 

Here's the deal, folks - I believe that geocachers can do more damage than a lot of you realize, yet I know a lot of geocachers are good folks and have a good time and are considerate while hunting and hiding. I hide my caches for those people - the "good" people. I enjoy seeing pictures of families and their children at my kid's caches, I like seeing folks who've hiked through the woods and finally discovered my other caches. I'm not going to quit doing that, just because I don't agree with how some people act in the hobby. Suggesting that is ridiculous.

 

Anyway, I'm done posting to this thread. I've made my opinion on the matter very clear - obviously there are folks who aren't going to agree with me, and it isn't much use trying to give a thoughtful reply to folks who are just interested in flaming. Oh, and I wouldn't wanna stress the forums servers. icon_rolleyes.gif

 

toe.gif

Click The Toe.

 

[This message was edited by Rubbertoe on September 23, 2002 at 07:55 AM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by fizzymagic:

Perhaps, given that your opinion of your fellow geocachers is so poor, you might not want to be involved with the activity. It would certainly reduce the load on the forums server.


 

That's nice... I read through your post and was impressed the someone was replying without flaming or anything, then you end it with a snotty little jab. Nice. icon_rolleyes.gif

 

And I don't descriminate - I don't think people are doing inconsiderate things BECAUSE they are geocachers. I have a pretty low opinion of people in general, and some of them just happen to be geocachers as well. If you live in an area where everyone is nice, and always polite to each other - then goody for you. But I've SEEN what damage can be done by geocachers - at MY caches, and at caches I've found. Of course, most geocachers aren't "bad" folks, I know that. icon_smile.gif

 

Like I've said - if any of my hidden caches are doing damage to an area, I'll remove them. And why is everyone so quick to just quit when they don't agree with something. I've posted my opinions about some geocachers, and more than a few people have basically said "well if you don't like it, quit."

 

Here's the deal, folks - I believe that geocachers can do more damage than a lot of you realize, yet I know a lot of geocachers are good folks and have a good time and are considerate while hunting and hiding. I hide my caches for those people - the "good" people. I enjoy seeing pictures of families and their children at my kid's caches, I like seeing folks who've hiked through the woods and finally discovered my other caches. I'm not going to quit doing that, just because I don't agree with how some people act in the hobby. Suggesting that is ridiculous.

 

Anyway, I'm done posting to this thread. I've made my opinion on the matter very clear - obviously there are folks who aren't going to agree with me, and it isn't much use trying to give a thoughtful reply to folks who are just interested in flaming. Oh, and I wouldn't wanna stress the forums servers. icon_rolleyes.gif

 

toe.gif

Click The Toe.

 

[This message was edited by Rubbertoe on September 23, 2002 at 07:55 AM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by fizzymagic:

Perhaps, given that your opinion of your fellow geocachers is so poor, you might not want to be involved with the activity. It would certainly reduce the load on the forums server.


 

That's nice... I read through your post and was impressed the someone was replying without flaming or anything, then you end it with a snotty little jab. Nice. icon_rolleyes.gif

 

And I don't descriminate - I don't think people are doing inconsiderate things BECAUSE they are geocachers. I have a pretty low opinion of people in general, and some of them just happen to be geocachers as well. If you live in an area where everyone is nice, and always polite to each other - then goody for you. But I've SEEN what damage can be done by geocachers - at MY caches, and at caches I've found. Of course, most geocachers aren't "bad" folks, I know that. icon_smile.gif

 

Like I've said - if any of my hidden caches are doing damage to an area, I'll remove them. And why is everyone so quick to just quit when they don't agree with something. I've posted my opinions about some geocachers, and more than a few people have basically said "well if you don't like it, quit."

 

Here's the deal, folks - I believe that geocachers can do more damage than a lot of you realize, yet I know a lot of geocachers are good folks and have a good time and are considerate while hunting and hiding. I hide my caches for those people - the "good" people. I enjoy seeing pictures of families and their children at my kid's caches, I like seeing folks who've hiked through the woods and finally discovered my other caches. I'm not going to quit doing that, just because I don't agree with how some people act in the hobby. Suggesting that is ridiculous.

 

Anyway, I'm done posting to this thread. I've made my opinion on the matter very clear - obviously there are folks who aren't going to agree with me, and it isn't much use trying to give a thoughtful reply to folks who are just interested in flaming. Oh, and I wouldn't wanna stress the forums servers. icon_rolleyes.gif

 

toe.gif

Click The Toe.

 

[This message was edited by Rubbertoe on September 23, 2002 at 07:55 AM.]

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Looks like I missed the party, but I wanted to put in my two cents just in case it helps anyone.

I have been caching in Colorado for about the last year or so now and I have placed 10 of the 14 caches that have been placed inside of caves here in the state. It was very interesting to read this disscusion until it all started falling apart and the little jabs started coming out. I was in a similar conversation about caching in caves on the NSS disscucion board, but there the cachers were out numbered considerably.

In the case of Tytoona cave preserve it's a slam dunk. The land and the cave belong to the NSS and they don't want a cache in there cave so it should have been removed right away. The Jerky reaction to the cache is typical of someone who dosen't understand something. When the cave caches first started coming out here in Colorado the local grotto was in an uproar, because they thought there would be dozens of people every day running around in these caves causing damage. Not so. Out here many of the caves are on public land, so there locations are highly guarded secrets. The only thing the grotto can do about geting a cache removed from a cave when they don't own the land the cave is on is go through the proper hoops. Alot has been said here so I don't want to repeat things.

 

Keep up the good fight.

 

Vader

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This thread got me to do some research about the NSS. NSS website They actually look like an interesting organization, that faces the some of the same issues we do as Geocachers. They have a Land Owners Relation committee.

 

I know there are regional geocaching groups, but we will need a bigger voice. Everyday more people participate in Geocaching, and the "bad press" we've seen will increase as well.

 

Geocaching could use some sort of national education/ relations committee. Virtually every hobby and recreation has some sort of organization that serves to educate the public.

 

We should all do our part as individuals to set a good example, but there is strength in numbers. A little coordination can go a long way.

 

This message board and the events calendar are good, but a club listing on the site would make things easier, and encourage participation and formation.

 

Maybe this has been discussed already. Even if so, it's worth discussing again.

 

As I see it, this incident left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths. If the cavers knew more about who we are, they might not have acted in the way they did. Maybe we would have seen things from their perspective sooner.

 

No matter how you feel about this incident, if long standing groups like NSS get a bad impression of Geocaching, whether deserved or not, it won't help us.

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I think geocachers are just starting to have the problems we as cavers have been having for years. You activity is hitting roadblocks that hinders the activity you enjoy. There are many wonderful caves out there that have been closed even to cavers because of liability fears, vandalism and out-right disrespect for the land. Not all caves are on public lands and access can be denied by land owners if they wish. With that said, we (cavers) have and continue to work very hard to insure that our activity and interest is there to enjoy for generations to come. Just have some respect for others wishes and they are more likely to work with you.

 

We are just trying to protect something we enjoy and care about just as you are with geocaching

 

Can't we all just get along?

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and to add another note...

Bad Andy posted to the NSS website his question on how to handle his find. No one on the NSS discussion board stated trashing geocachers and labeling them (i.e. elitist, snobs, etc...) The replies were helpful in pointing Bad Andy in the direction of cavers in his area. To those geocahcers that have trashed cavers on this forum, you really ought to get to know the majority of cavers before you label us as a group. It can easily, and probably will overtime, happen to your group. With all the negative replies about cavers on this forum, cavers could easily draw negative conclusions about geocahers

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quote:
Originally posted by cachew nut:

Wow, it looks like this thread had been dead for about a year and you are just now replying to it. Thanks! Without your post I would have never learned of the Tytoona Cave


 

I found this discussion through links that were posted to the NSS discussion board on 8/29/03.

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I'm sorry but there is way to much whining about this issue. Yes we know cavers are elistists. yes we know cachers cause more traffic in areas not normally traveled. Get over it, this is not going to go away so both groups may want to work together to come to a workable solution. Personally I hate people that think they have more rights then others, you know the type, the ones that park in front of stores directly over the no parking sign, the ones who check out 15 items in the 10 items or less line, the ones that drive on the shoulder to pass everyone else in the toll line, and finally the ones that think they own a PUBLIC site just because they know about it and you don't.

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This is sort of subject that upsets me for the following reason: I don't like people making private or reserved God's land. There are several groups dedicated to "preserving" certain pieces of land. What that means is that no one can come visit unless you are an educator or environmentalist. And then you can only go on certain days. I am neither. I am just a person that like to see nature.

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