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Looking for opinions about a situation


Salvelinus

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Here in Central PA there was a new cache placed by a relatively new cacher in a local cave. It has since been removed. This cave advertises public visitation but one person who is involved in caving and cave preservation basically "freaked" out about a cache being placed there. The current logs on the cache page pretty much explain what is going on.

 

Granted, permission should have been granted for placement of a physical cache, but there seems to be some over-reacting here.

 

A virtual cache may seem to be a better alternative, but I'm not so sure its worth it (or acceptable) considering the situation.

 

Now, the person who had such a problem with this cache has now set up an account with geocaching.com with the sole purpose of monitoring cave caches.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Smoochnme

 

goldfish.gif

"The trail will be long and full of frustrations. Life is a whole and good and evil must be accepted together"

 

Ralph Abele

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I'm still very new to geo-caching and actually went on my first hunt today but it is quite obvious from reading the log that there is a lot of over reacting going on.

 

One thing that comes to mind is 'cache in, trash out' that message is delivered to everyone geo-caching and i'm sure that does more good all around the world in any enviroment than what these "cave conservationist" are doing just in "their" caves, oh wait they're not their caves they are open to the Public. Cache in, trash out could have been brought to the caves but some over excited person decided to go way to far out of their way to put an end to it and even sends out threats (Not Cool).

 

Anyway sorry for spouting off but that is my dimes worth on the subject.

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Growing up I heard stories of 2 small caves on privately owned land very close to my home and for some reason could never locate them. Recently I decided to use the power of the net in hopes to get actual coordinates.

 

I found a few references that they did indeeed exist, but nothing more. After several emails, I came to one conclusion. Spelunkers, or at least the ones I came in contact with, can easily be stereotyped.

 

They don't wan't anyone else near "their" caves.

They will lie, tell you it does not exist, tell you it is somewhere else, or do anything else to convince you not to access the cave. I was told of bat dangers, radon, drop-offs, total darkness, and the delicate structure of the caves here.

 

I have finally found one of the caves here on my own, it is less than 100 feet deep, pretty well lit from outside light. It is little more than a huge granite slab which has cracked open. No bats, no dropp-offs, and several holes from outside force a decent draft of fresh air in and out of the cave. Nothing delicate - just granite slabs bigger than semi trucks.

 

I know caves exist that do have delicate structures as well as other dangers like the noxious fumes from bat droppings. And the placer should have gotten permission for a physical cache.

 

This response seems all so typical of the ones I received, but I am not sure what can be done if the managing party says no. I would think if the cave could be or was advertised in a book, then a virtual cache would be just as legitimate.

 

There's 3 kinds of people in this world, those that can count and those that can't.

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We have two cave caches here in the Boise area. One is mine.

 

Kuna Kave Krawl

 

The other is

 

One Cool Crack

 

I will also do more of these.

 

So far Kuna Kave is cleaner than it's been in one heck of a long time. We did a spring clean up and got it looking good. As it happens this is used as a party spot and is highly grafittied etc. Having a cache here with the cache in trash out is a good thing.

 

One Cool Crack was explored by our local Grotto club. They said bring buddies and help clean it out. They didn't freak out. So your local cave cacher who is freaking out must either own the cave or he's stealing caches. Either way he's not acting morally or resposiblely. He would do more good to request that cave hiders link to the local grotto club (or equivilent) 'cave rules' page.

 

Caves are fair game in geocaching. One point to consider. You can't remove a virtual cache.

 

Anyone who starts an account to monitor caches is probably ok. but once they use that account to confiscate caches they are crossing a line and should have the account banned. Unless they are monitoring what they actually have authority over such as a parks district within it's own boundaries.

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Sounds like another case of NIMBY (Not In My BackYard) syndrome! I did notice on their web page that they accept donations.

 

quote:
DONATIONS

Donations are being accepted to help replenish the NSS funds that were used during the acquisition of the Tytoona Cave Preserve property. ANY amount you can spare is most graciously appreciated and is tax deductable. Please make checks payable to: National Speleological Society and note on the check that it is for the "Tytoona Fund".


 

I cant think of a better way to generate donation revenue then to interest a new group of people to the area. But ... icon_confused.gif

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Sounds like another case of NIMBY (Not In My BackYard) syndrome! I did notice on their web page that they accept donations.

 

quote:
DONATIONS

Donations are being accepted to help replenish the NSS funds that were used during the acquisition of the Tytoona Cave Preserve property. ANY amount you can spare is most graciously appreciated and is tax deductable. Please make checks payable to: National Speleological Society and note on the check that it is for the "Tytoona Fund".


 

I cant think of a better way to generate donation revenue then to interest a new group of people to the area. But ... icon_confused.gif

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From the Management plan for the Tytoona Cave Preserve

see web page

 

Access

 

Under the previous WPC ownership, anyone visiting the Tytoona property was required to sign a liability waiver form. The Management Committee will not continue that policy unless requested by the NSS. The property is available for use by the general public, including Scout troops and university classes. The Management Committee believes that sufficient and reasonable protection of the NSS from liability concerns is provided by the Pennsylvania Landowners Liability Act.

 

General policy rules for access to the cave and for visitation on the preserve property are as follows:

 

(1) The Tytoona Cave Preserve shall not be used in an activity by which organizations can directly profit. This specifically prohibits "cave-for-pay" endeavors.

 

(2) No one is allowed on the property between the hours of 9:00pm and 6:00am, except for members of the Tytoona Cave Preserve Management Committee, (other exceptions may be authorized in writing by advance permission of the Committee on a case-by-case basis).

 

(3) Illegal drugs, drug paraphernalia, alcohol and alcohol beverage containers are prohibited on the property.

 

(4) No open flames are allowed on the property except in the use of carbide lamps for underground exploration.

 

(5) Visitors must use only established trail paths. No off-trail activities or use are permitted, including climbing and rappelling.

 

(6) Parking on the property is not permitted. Visitors must park on the berm of the township road at their own risk.

 

(7) Cave diving without express written consent of the Tytoona Cave Preserve Management Committee is prohibited (see Tytoona Cave Diving Guidelines).

 

As the cache page last indicated the cache is a virtual which requires a picture of the entrance.

 

It doesn't seem to me that its in any violation of thier stated preservation plan.

 

Eeyore

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... and I think we can learn a little about not painting a group with a broad brush.

 

I am trying to put together a multi-cache and one spot I'm trying to find is a cave that will allow a cache. I am supportive of caver's secrecy because it doesn't occur to most people that a cave can be a fragile environment. "It's stone, right? Stones are tough!" Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

 

I contacted my local grotto and put the question to them "Where can I find a cave that might be okay for geocaching?" They very graciously replied "Try the Tytoona Cave." Now, this was not them giving permission, it was just a suggestion on their part.

 

Clearly, cavers are as diverse a bunch as geocachers!

 

I think we should allow the first caver his hissy fit. He cares about caves and will do whatever he thinks is necessary to protect them. However, I think we should also nudge our local grottos to reach some sort of agreement on this particular cave: is it for the public or no? If yes, how can geocachers work with cavers to find solutions that work for both of us? If not, get a lock on the place.

 

Also, if we're that keen on caving, perhaps we could push for some "beginner caves," sturdier sites that could stand a little more traffic.

 

I should also note that when I contacted the grotto, I specified that the cave coords would not be posted to the web, but further along the line in the multi-cache. Perhaps we could recommend that the cacher "disguise" this cache a bit? Change the name and bury the coords in a multi-cache?

 

I think we have an opportunity here to show non-cachers that we can be thoughtful folk who just want to enjoy the outdoors-- not hooligans bent on marking or trashing territory.

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Although it might seem that we are new to geocaching, we are not. This summer we just decided to do alot more without the people we were with last year. This whole situation has been a painful look at how some people would rather criticize things about others in public, instead of just contacting them. This cache has since been removed, although there are a few cachers who have taken it upon themselves to make sure that it will not be forgotten. I will also like to state that if the NSS want their caves to be hidden, then they shouldn't advertise them on websites. They should also understand that if they would like for people to donate money to support these locations, they need to have a more optimistic outlook on the people visiting. I feel that all natural areas need to be protected, but shutting off these areas to all of the public is not the answer. 99% of all cachers take pride and consideration in placing their caches, this includes making sure they are not destroying or in anyway hurting the area of the site. The original cache for this location was sitting on the mud inside the cave, not even touching a rock. After the cache was retrieved by a board member for the cave, who is also a cacher, the cache was changed to a virtual one. The only thing required to get credit for the cache was a photo standing in front of the cave. Even this was decided to be forbidden by the cave manager. To this date, we can't figure out why this is still a problem. They state that geocachers are vandals and should not be visiting and destroying their site. We don't think that geocachers should be characterized in such a poor manner. This cave as well as others that the NSS and other cavers frequent are being destroyed more by their visits, since they actually go inside the caves and crawl, climb and repel their way thorugh them. Don't they think that pounding metal clamps and footholds into the rock sides, ceilings and floors are causing more damage to the cave than a few people walking into the first few feet to retrieve a plastic container sitting on the floor? I really wonder if they are worried more about us destroying the area or if their worried that we'll see how much they are destroying them. I realize that we should have asked permission to use this site, but since we read the rules of the cave that are posted, we didn't think we were breaking any of them. Next time we will be a bit more tactful when using a place like this for a cache site.

 

The Buzzard's

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I've seen enough damaged wildlife and litter around caches that I can certainly understand why people would want to protect areas from this hobby.

 

Not only has it happened around caches that I've placed, but I've also noticed it around several of the caches that I've found... trash on the ground, trampled plants, broken down trees. I usually "trash out" a little bit when I hide, hunt, or check on my own caches - but I don't think the majority of geocachers do.

 

I haven't yet read the logs for the cache in question, but I think it is a fair assumption that placing a cache in any environment is going to change it. And from what I've seen, there are many times when it is changed for the worse...

 

I'll read the logs here in a bit to see if this guy was really nutty or something, but I can understand the idea of not wanting a cache there. Not everyone is as careful or considerate as they could/should be.

 

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Click The Toe.
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I just read the e-mail from the "NSS Manager & Committee Chair for the Tytoona Cave Preserve" and I think all of his concerns are valid, and the only part where I think he is overreacting is where he suggests persuing prosecution.

 

If that letter had been sent, just leaving out the somewhat threatening tone, I think it pretty much hits the nail on the head.

 

Just because YOU wouldn't damage an area while looking for a cache, it doesn't mean that none of the other geocachers wouldn't. In fact, in many other threads where "bushwhacking" and trail damage have been discussed - people are very vocal about their right to go where they want, and how they want - in order to find a cache.

 

Granted, I don't think they mean they'd go crunching through preserved caves and knocking over formations in order to find a cache... but many of the people don't care about what happens to an area when they look for the cache. It's all about the finds, the totals... icon_rolleyes.gif

 

And you say that 99% of the people hiding caches are careful of the location and environment... but that says NOTHING about the people trying to locate those caches. I could probably add another dozen posts here, quoting things that people have said in other post about their rights to go where they want, and do what they want on public lands.

 

quote:
Lets see, they have a website that gives directions to the cave, but they get upset when people go there. Is there something wrong with this picture?

 

Saying it that way oversimplifies considerably. They obviously don't mind visitors to their caves - but they want the reason for the visit to BE the cave, not a quest for a box of goodies somewhere within.

 

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Click The Toe.

 

[This message was edited by Rubbertoe on September 21, 2002 at 01:21 PM.]

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I just read the e-mail from the "NSS Manager & Committee Chair for the Tytoona Cave Preserve" and I think all of his concerns are valid, and the only part where I think he is overreacting is where he suggests persuing prosecution.

 

If that letter had been sent, just leaving out the somewhat threatening tone, I think it pretty much hits the nail on the head.

 

Just because YOU wouldn't damage an area while looking for a cache, it doesn't mean that none of the other geocachers wouldn't. In fact, in many other threads where "bushwhacking" and trail damage have been discussed - people are very vocal about their right to go where they want, and how they want - in order to find a cache.

 

Granted, I don't think they mean they'd go crunching through preserved caves and knocking over formations in order to find a cache... but many of the people don't care about what happens to an area when they look for the cache. It's all about the finds, the totals... icon_rolleyes.gif

 

And you say that 99% of the people hiding caches are careful of the location and environment... but that says NOTHING about the people trying to locate those caches. I could probably add another dozen posts here, quoting things that people have said in other post about their rights to go where they want, and do what they want on public lands.

 

quote:
Lets see, they have a website that gives directions to the cave, but they get upset when people go there. Is there something wrong with this picture?

 

Saying it that way oversimplifies considerably. They obviously don't mind visitors to their caves - but they want the reason for the visit to BE the cave, not a quest for a box of goodies somewhere within.

 

toe.gif

Click The Toe.

 

[This message was edited by Rubbertoe on September 21, 2002 at 01:21 PM.]

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I think that this particular cache had to be taken down from geocaching.com. It is the desire of the Tytoona Cave Preserve management that there should not be a geocache, virtual or otherwise, at Tytoona Cave. It might appear that there could be no harm in having a virtual there since the area is open to the public but if you reread the NSS management plan or any other stuff on the internet about Tytoona Cave, you will discover that there are no specific maps or directions for getting to the cave. I might agree that it is only a subtle difference between the vague location information published elsewhere and the very specific coordinates and maps available on geocaching.com but it is an important difference in the considered opinion of the Tytoona Preserve management. It is a standard practice of cavers not to publish this information for sensitive cave areas such as Tytoona. I don’t care to discuss whether or not geocachers would or wouln’t have a significant negative impact on the preserve and I don’t want to begin another yet another discussion about whether keeping a place inaccessible by keeping it a secret is an effective conservation practice. None of this is relevant here. We can debate the pros and cons of whether it might be a good idea for there to be a geocache at Tytoona Cave until we are blue in the face but we cannot ignore the fact that the manager of the preserve is opposed to the idea. We have to acknowledge and respect that he is the legitimate authority here. He is on the front lines of a conservation effort and is charged with protecting the cave. We have to acknowledge and respect that also. Who is better qualified to decide if geocaching is an appropriate activity at this site? Did the guy overreact and have a hissy fit. I think that he did. But another fact that we cannot ignore is that a geocacher started it all by hiding a cache without asking permission first. We’re not about breaking the rules. Let this one go.

 

Johnny

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The concern of these hysterical cavers has absolutely nothing to do with preservation or conservation. It is all about the adverse psychological impact that the democratization of information has on the arrogant elite who are used to being part of a select few, privy to information not generally available to the public. We should protect our natural resources by education and regulation; not by restricting the free flow of information, as arrogant elitists would prefer.

 

You may not agree with what I say, but I will defend, to your death, my right to say it!(it's a Joke, OK!)

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quote:
Originally posted by seneca:

The concern of these hysterical cavers has absolutely nothing to do with preservation or conservation. It is all about the adverse psychological impact that the democratization of information has on the arrogant elite who are used to being part of a select few, privy to information not generally available to the public. We should protect our natural resources by education and regulation; not by restricting the free flow of information, as arrogant elitists would prefer.

 

_You may not agree with what I say, but I will defend, to your death, my right to say it!(it's a Joke, OK!)_


 

AMEN

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quote:
Originally posted by Rubbertoe:

 

I haven't yet read the logs for the cache in question, but I think it is a fair assumption that placing a cache in any environment is going to change it. And from what I've seen, there are many times when it is changed for the worse...


 

If you totally abstain from finding or placing caches you will no longer be part of the problem.

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quote:
Originally posted by seneca:

The concern of these hysterical cavers has absolutely nothing to do with preservation or conservation. It is all about the adverse psychological impact that the democratization of information has on the arrogant elite who are used to being part of a select few, privy to information not generally available to the public. We should protect our natural resources by education and regulation; not by restricting the free flow of information, as arrogant elitists would prefer.


 

*laugh* Yeah, or it could just be they don't want people tearing up their caves. You see black helicopters above your house much? "the free flow of information" *laugh more*

 

Okay - does anyone actually disagree with what I've said, when I've suggested that some geocachers DO damage the surrounding areas of a cache? A lot of us are careful, sure, but many people aren't. Why do you think it is so horrible that the cave management want to prevent potential damage by geocachers? Especially since the cache was placed without permission.

 

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Click The Toe.

 

[This message was edited by Rubbertoe on September 22, 2002 at 08:40 AM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by GeoPrincess:

If you totally abstain from finding or placing caches you will no longer be part of the problem.


 

As people have said, there are probably more good people in geocaching than bad, and I'm glad to hide caches for people to find and enjoy. If they appear to be causing damage to the environment in the area, I will remove them... I've already decided that when I started placing them.

 

As for finding them, I'm certainly helping more than I am hurting anything... the handful of times that I've been hunting, I've always picked up a little trash in the area - trying to make the location as nice as possible.

 

So, no, I don't consider myself part of the problem. Is that why you have zero finds/hides? Are you just taking your own advice and not becoming part of "the problem" of geocaching?

 

Hopefully nobody thinks that I am a troll too. icon_razz.gif The original post asked for opinions, so I'm giving mine... I really do want to understand how some people think that they should be able to leave caches wherever they want, and how they think that no geocacher ever does any damage. One of the more amusing arguments I've heard for situations like this... "What happened to THIS LAND IS YOUR LAND, THIS LAND IS MY LAND?"

 

And the argument about the cave being open to the public misses one point... the caves are open to the public, and the reason for people going there was to see the caves. Place a cache there without permission brings a whole new group of people to the location - with their main concern not being the caves, but instead finding a geocache. Any land manager would be wise to have concerns about this. Just as any of us would, if we had some sort of display of "something" open to the public in our back yard or field - and suddenly someone put something in it, for other people to come snooping around for. I doubt there is any one of us who wouldn't be concerned in that circumstance.

 

toe.gif

Click The Toe.

 

[This message was edited by Rubbertoe on September 22, 2002 at 09:40 AM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by GeoPrincess:

If you totally abstain from finding or placing caches you will no longer be part of the problem.


 

As people have said, there are probably more good people in geocaching than bad, and I'm glad to hide caches for people to find and enjoy. If they appear to be causing damage to the environment in the area, I will remove them... I've already decided that when I started placing them.

 

As for finding them, I'm certainly helping more than I am hurting anything... the handful of times that I've been hunting, I've always picked up a little trash in the area - trying to make the location as nice as possible.

 

So, no, I don't consider myself part of the problem. Is that why you have zero finds/hides? Are you just taking your own advice and not becoming part of "the problem" of geocaching?

 

Hopefully nobody thinks that I am a troll too. icon_razz.gif The original post asked for opinions, so I'm giving mine... I really do want to understand how some people think that they should be able to leave caches wherever they want, and how they think that no geocacher ever does any damage. One of the more amusing arguments I've heard for situations like this... "What happened to THIS LAND IS YOUR LAND, THIS LAND IS MY LAND?"

 

And the argument about the cave being open to the public misses one point... the caves are open to the public, and the reason for people going there was to see the caves. Place a cache there without permission brings a whole new group of people to the location - with their main concern not being the caves, but instead finding a geocache. Any land manager would be wise to have concerns about this. Just as any of us would, if we had some sort of display of "something" open to the public in our back yard or field - and suddenly someone put something in it, for other people to come snooping around for. I doubt there is any one of us who wouldn't be concerned in that circumstance.

 

toe.gif

Click The Toe.

 

[This message was edited by Rubbertoe on September 22, 2002 at 09:40 AM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by Rubbertoe:

*laugh* Yeah, or it could just be they don't want people tearing up their caves. You see black helicopters above your house much? "the free flow of information" *laugh more*


No, I do not see "black helecoptors", and I was not talking about government control of information. In fact, I believe in your country, your governments have done an admirable job of making information available to the masses (including the information we receive from their GPS satellites). I was talking about elitism, and how people react to losing it. You yourself have acknowledged elitism among the alarmed cavers, who don’t mind having caves visited by people who share their aesthetic appreciation of caves (as determined by their standards) but who are aghast at any potential riffraff who might just be just visiting for an unenlightened gawk. The internet has unearthed many alarmed elitists who were used to having information in their special areas of expertise cornered. They have not appreciated the internet taking that special information edge away. In fact, many members of my profession (I am a lawyer) are included among those.

 

You may not agree with what I say, but I will defend, to your death, my right to say it!(it's a Joke, OK!)

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Doesn't this just want you to just post a big ol' virtual cache right in their cave.

 

Really comming off like they did - all you have to do is read the note in the geocache or the website to realize all you have to do to get a cache removed is to have the land owner/manager ask it to be removed.

 

----(sig line)---> Did you ever do any trail maintainence? - if so you will know that all but the most worn trails need continuous maintenance to prevent mother nature from reclaiming it. herd paths are quickly reclaimed - k2dave

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quote:
Originally posted by Rubbertoe:

*laugh* Yeah, or it could just be they don't want people tearing up their caves. You see black helicopters above your house much? "the free flow of information" *laugh more*

 

Okay - does anyone actually disagree with what I've said, when I've suggested that some geocachers DO damage the surrounding areas of a cache? A lot of us are careful, sure, but many people aren't. Why do you think it is so horrible that the cave management want to prevent potential damage by geocachers? Especially since the cache was placed without permission.


 

You guys are smoking crack if you don't think people do damage...

 

I started a very difficult multi a few weeks ago where the coordinates were *dead on* and those same coords took you *far* away from vegetation... The area 20-30 feet from the center were totalled... broken limbs, flattened bushes, trails everywhere... the whole area was totalled, and I do mean totalled... The bushes were trashed... I wandered around for a few minutes and immediately nailed it... But after I found the clue, I was dismayed at how trashed the area was... Everything flattened...

 

Either people are impatient or stupid... I suspect stupid...

 

The cache I refer to is... Puma

 

It's not the cache hider's fault, it's the finders who are morons... Great clues, great hiding, great execution... bad finders... Now I'm not the most experienced cacher, but I'm not sooo stupid as to flatten the local veg looking... Made me kinda sick...

 

Another one... I got to the near area... and someone threw all the rocks off the side of the cliff... and I mean ALL... I got there and there were a bazillion craters where rocks used to be... It's the only time I've been so pissed off that I would have cracked skulls in this game... I was hot... I spent at least an hour trying to make it look like no one had been there... and it was very hard... I hiked out in the dark, with no light... thanks to the morons before me... Got lost, got found...

 

In short, Those of us on the boards seem to be responsible... but those that are in between seem to do what they want...

 

I've wanted to get this off my chest for a while... thanks for posting this...

 

geosig.jpg

Contents Under Pressure...

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quote:
Originally posted by yorelken:

"their caves", Rubbertoe? Now I'm laughing.


 

Yeah, THEIR CAVES. The meaning of "their caves" in that post was referring to the fact that they maintain those caves, they are the management team that handles issues involving those caves.

 

How convenient for you to ignore everything else I said. icon_rolleyes.gif

 

(Btw, that was a nice post by Acceptable Risk... it is nice to see another voice of reason in the forums like that.)

 

toe.gif

Click The Toe.
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quote:
Originally posted by yorelken:

"their caves", Rubbertoe? Now I'm laughing.


 

Yeah, THEIR CAVES. The meaning of "their caves" in that post was referring to the fact that they maintain those caves, they are the management team that handles issues involving those caves.

 

How convenient for you to ignore everything else I said. icon_rolleyes.gif

 

(Btw, that was a nice post by Acceptable Risk... it is nice to see another voice of reason in the forums like that.)

 

toe.gif

Click The Toe.
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quote:
Originally posted by yorelken:

"their caves", Rubbertoe? Now I'm laughing.


 

Yeah, THEIR CAVES. The meaning of "their caves" in that post was referring to the fact that they maintain those caves, they are the management team that handles issues involving those caves.

 

How convenient for you to ignore everything else I said. icon_rolleyes.gif

 

(Btw, that was a nice post by Acceptable Risk... it is nice to see another voice of reason in the forums like that.)

 

toe.gif

Click The Toe.
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quote:
I started a very difficult multi a few weeks ago where the coordinates were *dead on* and those same coords took you *far* away from vegetation... The area 20-30 feet from the center were totalled... broken limbs, flattened bushes, trails everywhere... the whole area was totalled, and I do mean totalled... The bushes were trashed... I wandered around for a few minutes and immediately nailed it... But after I found the clue, I was dismayed at how trashed the area was... Everything flattened...

 

Interesting, I checked the cache page and didn't see a note from you informing the cache owner of the condition of the area surrounding the cache site. I hope you at least e-mailed the owner to let him know what was up.

 

"Life is a daring adventure, or it is nothing" - Helen Keller

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quote:
Originally posted by Rubbertoe:

...Okay - does anyone actually disagree with what I've said, when I've suggested that some geocachers DO damage the surrounding areas of a cache? ...


 

I don't disagree with you, but it all depends on how you define damage(Don't worry, I'm not going to post definitions like I did in the bushwhacking thread).

 

Any evidence a cacher leaves behind IS damaging to the welfare of the cache, but not neccesarily to the environment, at least permanently. Most grasses recover quickly, and small branches will not usually kill a tree. Wild animals trample more grass and break more limbs than people ever will.

 

Ever seen a beaver chew down a 75 year old, 1.5 foot diameter birch tree, only to remove the upper branches for use in his dam, leaving the rest to rot? I can show you hundreds around here. I've heard many environmentalists say "It's only natural to them", then they complain when a human cuts down a 1 inch diameter alder bush to maintain an ATV trail.

 

I'll even agree that any sensitive cave features take a long time to recover. In that case, maybe it should be left at a virtual. But it will be hard to convince me that geocachers have any more of a percentage of damaging characteristics than any other visitor. I've seen non-cachers take rocks from mountians and beaches here even when it's posted not to. One would guess that the same percentage of geocachers might do the same.

 

Geocachers don't do permanent damage to the environment, thoughtless people do.

 

Save our forests, wipe your *** with a tree-hugger.

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quote:
Originally posted by Acceptable Risk:

 

You guys are smoking crack if you don't think people do damage...

 


 

Alright, accepting you are correct, what is your solution? Ensure that we hide the locations of environmentally sensitive public areas away from all persons until they have passed a conservation exam?

 

You may not agree with what I say, but I will defend, to your death, my right to say it!(it's a Joke, OK!)

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quote:
Originally posted by Quest Master:

It is the desire of the Tytoona Cave Preserve management that there should not be a geocache, virtual or otherwise, at Tytoona Cave. It might appear that there could be no harm in having a virtual there since the area is open to the public but if you reread the NSS management plan or any other stuff on the internet about Tytoona Cave, you will discover that there are no specific maps or directions for getting to the cave.


 

I note that you used the words "it is the desire ..." Frankly, I don't give a dadgum what land managers "desire." To what extent have the managers of the site in question been granted legal control and responsibility for any and all activities at and around the caves?

 

The idea that one has to seek permission to create a virtual cache in an area that is legally accessible to the public and is actively promoted by the controlling agency is absolutely nuts.

 

[This message was edited by BassoonPilot on September 22, 2002 at 03:13 PM.]

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I'm glad that you asked. The Tytoona Cave preserve was purchased by the National Speleogical Society (NSS) with dues money and donations from "hysterical cavers" and "arrogant elitists". The Tytoona Cave management is a group of volunteers that have worked hard make improvements to the preserve such as constructing a trail from the roadway to the cave, erecting an information kiosk, cleaning up trash left by inconsiderate persons (this site was quite the party spot at one time), and removing spraypaint graffiti from in and around the cave. I do think that their knee-jerk overreaction does have something to do with a "fear of democritization of information" which pervades caver culture but to say that these people (who I do not know personally) are not genuinely concerned about conservation and preservation of caves is just plain WRONG in this particular case. They are the legitimate authority here and could close or restrict public access to the site. You should care about what they desire or the day will surely come that nobody will be allowed to go into this place. There seem to be a lot of people on these boards who have issues with authority. Please substitute "should" for "have to" in my previous post and see if you can deal with it. If you still have problems, get help.

 

Johnny

 

[This message was edited by Quest Master on September 22, 2002 at 03:32 PM.]

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There is a serious distinction between "problems with authority" and "problems with abuse of authority." In this situation, it appears that NSS actually owns the land in question, so if they want to prohibit a cache, they have every right to do so.

 

But that doesn't keep them from being jerks.

 

I think it's pretty clear that their little hissy fit has far more to do with their elitism than with any actual concern for the cave in question. While it is true that many caves are extremely fragile and need to be protected from public access, those caves tend to be controlled by actual authorities rather than ad hoc volunteer groups like NSS.

 

Since these folks have published the location of the cave on their website, their claim to be objecting to a virtual cache out of concern for the cave rings pretty hollow.

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quote:
Originally posted by GeoPrincess:

Stop talking out of both sides of your mouth. You _are_ part of the problem.


 

Okay, well I'll consider your opinion as soon as you actually add something worthwhile to this conversation other than single sentence flames.

 

I can't really respect the opinions of someone who has only posted here a little more than a dozen times, and hasn't even logged a single cache found or hidden. icon_razz.gif

 

I guess you don't want to be a part of the problem, eh? icon_rolleyes.gif

 

toe.gif

Click The Toe.
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quote:
Originally posted by GeoPrincess:

Stop talking out of both sides of your mouth. You _are_ part of the problem.


 

Okay, well I'll consider your opinion as soon as you actually add something worthwhile to this conversation other than single sentence flames.

 

I can't really respect the opinions of someone who has only posted here a little more than a dozen times, and hasn't even logged a single cache found or hidden. icon_razz.gif

 

I guess you don't want to be a part of the problem, eh? icon_rolleyes.gif

 

toe.gif

Click The Toe.
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quote:
Originally posted by fizzymagic:

I think it's pretty clear that their little hissy fit has far more to do with their elitism than with any actual concern for the cave in question.


How is it that you come to that conclusion? I read the same letter as you did, I assume - and almost all of it seemed reasonable to me. The only part where I think they got carried away was when they threatened prosecution. I just don't see what makes you think their concern is with being elite, rather than protecting the caves. Don't think this is a flame, I really want to know what made you think that. icon_smile.gif

quote:

Since these folks have published the location of the cave on their website, their claim to be objecting to a virtual cache out of concern for the cave rings pretty hollow.


I imagine they just have a bad taste in their mouth for geocaching in general, after this incident. I agree, a virtual cache would be ideal for this location - it wouldn't require any searching around, looking for hidden boxes in the caves... it's a shame they won't consider it.

 

And, brdad - thanks for the 'kind' reply up there... I hate when it gets to the point where everyone is all cheezed off and end up flaming each other. (I know I'm guilty of it from time to time as well) I really do try to understand both sides of the argument, so it really gets to me when people can't at least see what I'm saying - even if they don't necessarily agree with it. icon_smile.gif

 

toe.gif

Click The Toe.

 

[This message was edited by Rubbertoe on September 22, 2002 at 06:13 PM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by fizzymagic:

I think it's pretty clear that their little hissy fit has far more to do with their elitism than with any actual concern for the cave in question.


How is it that you come to that conclusion? I read the same letter as you did, I assume - and almost all of it seemed reasonable to me. The only part where I think they got carried away was when they threatened prosecution. I just don't see what makes you think their concern is with being elite, rather than protecting the caves. Don't think this is a flame, I really want to know what made you think that. icon_smile.gif

quote:

Since these folks have published the location of the cave on their website, their claim to be objecting to a virtual cache out of concern for the cave rings pretty hollow.


I imagine they just have a bad taste in their mouth for geocaching in general, after this incident. I agree, a virtual cache would be ideal for this location - it wouldn't require any searching around, looking for hidden boxes in the caves... it's a shame they won't consider it.

 

And, brdad - thanks for the 'kind' reply up there... I hate when it gets to the point where everyone is all cheezed off and end up flaming each other. (I know I'm guilty of it from time to time as well) I really do try to understand both sides of the argument, so it really gets to me when people can't at least see what I'm saying - even if they don't necessarily agree with it. icon_smile.gif

 

toe.gif

Click The Toe.

 

[This message was edited by Rubbertoe on September 22, 2002 at 06:13 PM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by Quest Master:

I'm glad that you asked. ... I do think that their knee-jerk overreaction does have something to do with a "fear of democritization of information" ... They are the legitimate authority here and could close or restrict public access to the site. You should care about what they desire or the day will surely come that nobody will be allowed to go into this place.


 

Then they should do just that ... and deal with what assuredly would follow. I have no issue with those who own or control a site exercising their authority in an even handed manner. This cave is obviously open to the public and the controlling authority promotes its use by the public.

 

I think every geocacher near this site should pay it a visit and send an e-mail to the site manager and all the principals of the MAR as verification of their visit.

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quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

I think every geocacher near this site should pay it a visit and send an e-mail to the site manager and all the principals of the MAR as verification of their visit.


 

I'm curious - what exactly is the result you expect if people do this? I'm not sure I'm understand the goal of doing that.

 

toe.gif

Click The Toe.
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