Caches and Bomb Squads

[Guest Wow!]

I read, with interest, the posts here on the caches that were removed by the bomb squads and/or police departments. This situation could result in a serious problem for us cachers.

 

Since 9-11 our police departments and the FBI have been on high alert for any type of foreign or domestic terrorist activity. If the authorities view geocaching as a problem I?m sure they could put a halt to it in some areas.

 

I wonder how many of you have given this any consideration and if so what ideas can we come up with to reduce the possible clamp-down on our fun.

 

Let?s talk.

 

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Lost somewhere in southern Ohio, Wow!

[Guest madphatboy2]

at to look for in a typical cache. Maybe the police/FBI can have a local in that district be the designated cache-something or other where they know all the caches in that district so that if the bomb squad has a question, a quick phone call could resolve the issue. Just my .02.;

 

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MPB2

 

I wander from here to there looking for. . .my mind? And then I find it in the cache.

[Guest makaio]

The issue is awareness. The persons who stumble across these caches are unaware. They notify authorites who are also unaware and have no way to identify these containers as safe.

 

If they're aware of geocaching (they'd need to be to call someone), they can check the website just as easily as calling someone. If it's a posted cache, odds are it's not an explosive and/or harmful device.

 

This, of course, doesn't prevent terrorists from posting caches, but if they did, there would be an easily traced electronic path back to them.

 

I think simply disseminating information about geocaching through law enforcement channels would be a prudent way to get the word out and make them aware of our sport.

[Guest Jake.Hazelip]

How about y'all stop using surplus military containers? It looks military, people think military, people react badly.

 

If you need suggestions for watertight, airtight containers, I can help.

[Guest Mopar]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jake.Hazelip:

If you need suggestions for watertight, airtight containers, I can help.

---

Can I put food/wine in them?

[Guest madphatboy2]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jake.Hazelip:

How about y'all stop using surplus military containers? It looks military, people think military, people react badly.

 

If you need suggestions for watertight, airtight containers, I can help.

---

 

Jake.hazelip,

How about some ideas then. I would love to have another way to have my cache identified and not blown up.

 

Thanks

 

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MPB2

 

I wander from here to there looking for. . .my mind? And then I find it in the cache.

[Guest Kerry]

Is there really any other way than too treat what might be suspicious packages in a suspect way. Who knows when they might not be, who knows everything about all, who really knows.

 

Unfortuneately it's probably simply not save to assume anything in this day and age.

 

Cheers, Kerry.

[Guest TX_Twister_Chaser]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jake.Hazelip:

How about y'all stop using surplus military containers? It looks military, people think military, people react badly.

B]

---

 

Since when has tupperware been considered military??

 

Both tupperware and ammo cans have been "Blown up" so its not what it looks like that matters. The problem is when over- reactive people think that everything that is out of place is suspicious. Its like after all of the anthrax was found, everyone was calling in with white powdery substances.

 

Anyways, from what I have read about the other blown up caches it appears that they will blow up any container clear or not in the name of Public Safety. So I will still use ammo cans, which are clearly marked and all military markings have been painted over.

 

Just my $.02

 

TTC

[Guest madphatboy2]

I also love to use ammo cans. My town is fairly small, so keeping in touch with the bombsquad would be easier then say if I were in SLC or Atlanta. It's worth a shot, all though nobody gets too suspicious about boxes and tupperware sitting around.

 

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MPB2

 

I wander from here to there looking for. . .my mind? And then I find it in the cache.

[Guest mac]

I think something to consider is where a cache is hidden. What I mean is, people can only report something as suspiscious if they come across it. If I go for a walk in the woods strictly for the purpose of a hike, and I see an ammo can sitting at the base of a tree, I know exactly why its there. A non-geoacher would probably freak after everything we are fed in the news headlines. On the other hand, the caches I have hidden are in no way noticable or conspicuous. You would have to be looking pretty hard to find any of them.....and if you find one, there is about a 100% chance that you are a geocacher... and as a result, obviously you wont report the container as suspiscious.

 

This being said, I will still use my ammo cans painted flat black. I don't do urban caches, I only hide stuff out in the woods, so the likelyhood that a non-geocacher finds my cache and call the bombsquad is as close to nil as I can make it.

[Guest Hawk-eye]

$2.25 to $2.99 ...

 

[This message has been edited by Hawk-eye (edited 06 March 2002).]

[Guest Irishmike3032]

I work for a Special Operations Group in the NYC area. I can tell you in these times, any device found somewhere where it does not belong is going to raise even the most stable persons suspicious nature. The key here is education. The only way to stem the tide of removed/destroyed caches is to educate local authorities about our "GAME". Unfourtunately, there is a need to be this suspicious. Even with education there are going to be misunderstandings and removal of caches. A small price to pay for national security in my opinion.

[Guest Wow!]

mac and hawkeye - I think those are both great ideas. I'm planning a cache stash and I think I'll check out the Rubbermaid containers.

 

I have been thinking that it may be a good idea for us to develope a geocaching logo on an information sheet that could become very well known by the authorities. This sheet (or maybe even a sticker) could be prominantly displayed on all caches. It may take a while but eventually the logo would become familiar with the authorities (I don't know what elde to call them). But that still does not eliminate the use of these stickers by the "Dastardly-Dans" out there.

 

---------------------------

 

Mike, I just read your post and I'm glad to hear from one of the "authorities". Do you folks view this kind of game activity as a nuisense and a cause for concern? One thing that could really hurt our cause is to become a pain in the neck for the agencies who are there to protect the citizens.

 

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Lost somewhere in southern Ohio, Wow!

 

[This message has been edited by Wow! (edited 06 March 2002).]

[Guest VentureForth]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wow!:

I have been thinking that it may be a good idea for us to develope a geocaching logo on an information sheet that could become very well known by the authorities. This sheet (or maybe even a sticker) could be prominantly displayed on all caches.

---

 

The Sticker

 

They are available for purchase. No way no how make anyone do anything in geocaching. Bureaucracy not needed. Only common sense.

 

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VentureForth out to the wild, wet forest...

[Guest MajBach]

I've owned a GPs for two years, yet I only heard about GeoCaching last Saturday. Since then, I have found three caches (Hooray!), and I look forward to hiding my own. However, of the three I have found, the majority of the logs state 'my first find'. suffice is to say, the 'sport' is growing rapidly. Of told three people of these mini adventures, and two of them stated they heard of it on the news. As much as I enjoy it and look forward to continuing to do so, the cynical side of me fears a good sport turning sour. I believe it is only a matter of time before some wrong-to-do person places a bomb or what have you in one of these things. Strict rules, and perhaps a governing body may have to be put in place.

As new as I am to all this, it seems obvious to me that all caches should be transparent and clearly identified on the outside. Even still, that wouldn't stop someone from lacing the contents with Anthrax or something. I just worry that some kid is going to open one eventually with a pipe bomb or the like inside. I suppose these types of worries never put a stop to activities such as Hallowe'en, but then again, with a GC, you're often by yourself and you cannot be certain of the last person who visited the cache.

MajBach

[Guest GammaBoo]

My .02 on ammo cans:

 

They hold up a LOT better than plastic containers, and the contents are safe from the elements and critters.

 

I put stickers over all of the printing on the can. The stickers include the notice "GEOCACHE SITE---DO NOT VANDALIZE". I then put the can in a sturdy dark plastic bag along with the official geocaching notice, laminated, OUTSIDE the ammo can. Then I wrap the whole thing in a piece of camouflage burlap. Finally I hide the cache so it can't be seen from the nearest trail or path.

 

Even this can probably be improved on. Any suggestions?

[Guest brokenwing]

As has been stated before, what a cache looks like is not going to address this problem. A malicious individual could just as easily make a bomb from an innocuous "properly marked" container. No amount of education or marking of containers is going to prevent the occasional destruction of cache in this way. Do you really think the bomb squad is going to take a look at the container and just say: ?oh, it?s just another geocache, don?t worry about it?. Of course not. It?s their job to insure the item is safe. If they are unsure, they will err on the side of safety and destroy the cache. To not do so would be negligent.

 

The best advice I've seen so far is to simply hide caches better. If no one other than geocachers see it, the problem is eliminated. Also, the bit about avoiding suspicious locations is also sound. I once thought about placing a cache under a small footbridge in a local park. It has occurred to me that this is not the best type of location, however. If you put something in a location like under a bridge, or on or near a train track, next to a building, you have to expect people to be more suspicious.

 

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Brokenwing

http://www.cordianet.com/geocaching

[Guest brokenwing]

o-do person places a bomb or what have you in one of these things.

---

 

While it is certainly possible that someone could do this, we have to be realistic and not live in fear. If someone wanted to hurt other people, where are plenty of better ways to do it than placing an explosive device in a box that may or may not ever be found again. Besides, the possibility also exists that someone could place a bomb in your car while you are in the grocery store. Shall we all stop leaving our car unattended because of it? Do we all start checking the car out for bombs before we get in? No, there is little point. You are much more likely to die on the highway in a car accident than by a car bomb.

 

It just is not very likely someone would do this kind of random act. There are much better ways to terrorize people and cause mass causalities. Public places are much more likely to be bombed than a container in the woods.

 

In reference to your idea about "Strict rules, and perhaps a governing body", I fail to see how this could make any difference at all in whether or not such a thing ever happened. Can you explain how this would help? Remember, malicious people don't follow rules.

 

Thanks.

 

------------------

Brokenwing

http://www.cordianet.com/geocaching

[Guest JamieZ]

Yeah,

 

I've had some personal experience with the bridge issue, although not related to Geocaching.

 

A couple years ago, a friend and I were exploring around the Harahan Bridge over the Mississippi River. It's an old bridge; I'm not sure when it was built. It has two train tracks on the top, and underneath that, out on each side is a very, very narrow auto lane. The auto lane is long since in disuse, but at the ends of the bridge, there are still indications of the wooden roadbed it contained.

 

Anyway, this friend and I were checking it out and as BNSF Railroad cop drove up. He wanted every little piece of identification we had on us, including our social security numbers. Before he finally let us leave, he told us that security around any bridge (especially on the lower Mississippi) is not taken lightly and if we were to be caught messing around out there again, we could face some serious trouble.

 

I dunno what sort of authority the guy has, or if he was feeding us a bunch of BS in order to scare us or not, but I'll tell you I haven't been out to that bridge (or any other for that matter) since.

 

I imagine a Geocache out by a major bridge could cause some problems as well.

 

Jamie

[Guest VentureForth]

I've brought this up in chat before, but now I think it's worth mention here. My wife encouraged me to check out a neat place to hide a cache near where I work. So after a day of caching, my family and I went there and looked around. It was on public land off of an abandoned county road near the fence of a municipal airport which happens to be occupied by a company which is a major defense contractor. As my daughter and I were looking around at some really neat places to place a cache, security from the company approached us from the other side of the fence. She flat out told us that we had no business being there. After reminding her that we were on public land and that her responsibilites were on the other side of the fence, she just said that we shouldn't be there and if we wanted to watch airplanes, we should go to the other side of the field (??? No difference!). At this point, I got beliegerent ('cause whereas I will respect civil authorities, corporate security guards don't fit that bill). I asked what I was violating and why this side of the airport was worst than the other side? I didn't EVEN get into geocaching with her. I just told her that I was on public land with my family watching airplanes.

 

She finally got up and left.

 

I hate confrontation, but when I know that someone is overstepping their bounds, I will react. We subsequently decided (I decided) not to put one there 'cause I don't want other cacher's pissed at me for getting talked to by security guards. And it is understandable that a suspicious object in the woods by the airport would cause someone to get uptight. We were probably even on a surveillance camera. My wife wants to put one there anyway to spite them, but I voted not to.

 

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VentureForth out to the wild, wet forest...

[Guest whidbeywalk]

VentureForth,

 

If you made it a virtual and put the whole security guard story in the description (and I lived in the area) I would go for it. I love those type confrontations where you know you?re in the right.

 

As far as the topic of this thread goes, I think brokenwing covered my point of view nicely.

[Guest whidbeywalk]

VentureForth,

 

If you made it a virtual and put the whole security guard story in the description (and I lived in the area) I would go for it. I love those type confrontations where you know you?re in the right.

 

As far as the topic of this thread goes, I think brokenwing covered my point of view nicely.

[mtnsteve]

The day after a newspaper article talked about the bomb squad blowing up a near by cache, illegally placed next to railroad tracks, I meet three folks just coming back from my Lassen View cache (I was on my way to pull it for the winter) they read the article, and took note of the part where an FBI agent said the game looked like fun, and decided to try it.....(they went to the web site just before I pulled the cache from it) They probably never would have heard about Geocaching if it wasn't for the guys blowing up that cache.

 

The next day I was searching for a cache near Shasta Dam, right under a transmission tower, with my day pack on and my trusty GPS in hand, when I started thinking what this would look like...about that time H14 (the local CHP chopper) started hovering right over my head, after making a couple passes, and waving back and forth, they flew off.

[+VentureForth]

quote:

---

Originally posted by whidbeywalk:

If you made it a virtual and put the whole security guard story in the description (and I lived in the area) I would go for it. I love those type confrontations where you know you’re in the right.

---

 

Normally I would have, but there was a lot of controversy with another cache that I placed near a highway patrol offer's home. The cachers were looking in his yard for it when he got back in full uniform. They were playing along and the trooper was really cool about it. The cachers wrote about their excursion into the 'neighbor who has an automatic'. Apparenty this caused outcry and at one point, Jeremy even asked us to archive it. When we got this straightened out, we revised the description and Jeremy let us keep it. It hasn't been visited in nearly a month, though. Not since the controversy.

 

In the words of Rodney King, "Why can't we all just get along?"

 

Venture Forth, out to the wild, wet forest...

[+VentureForth]

quote:

---

Originally posted by whidbeywalk:

If you made it a virtual and put the whole security guard story in the description (and I lived in the area) I would go for it. I love those type confrontations where you know you’re in the right.

---

 

Normally I would have, but there was a lot of controversy with another cache that I placed near a highway patrol offer's home. The cachers were looking in his yard for it when he got back in full uniform. They were playing along and the trooper was really cool about it. The cachers wrote about their excursion into the 'neighbor who has an automatic'. Apparenty this caused outcry and at one point, Jeremy even asked us to archive it. When we got this straightened out, we revised the description and Jeremy let us keep it. It hasn't been visited in nearly a month, though. Not since the controversy.

 

In the words of Rodney King, "Why can't we all just get along?"

 

Venture Forth, out to the wild, wet forest...

[Jake.Hazelip]

Ahhh, the modern American love of blind fear...

 

Anyway, I still think ammo cans suck and just ask for trouble. I was going to use an 80mm mortar ammo tube, but decided against it when I thought about all the stupid people actually thiking that a terrorist faction coordinated enough to crash four planes in less than two hours on one day would actually hide a bomb or poison in the woods away from any targets...

 

Anyway, here are alternatives I've found:

 

Kalamata olive containers. I have these in what I think is the five gallon size. I have about a dozen. I've been thinking about sending a few to Jeremy to let him sell them on the site as a kind of geocaching kit. They have a double lid with o-ring. They're great. They also come in smaller but usable sizes, but I haven't been able to track them down. Example (small size...I can't find one of the larger one): http://shop.store.yahoo.com/chiamp/greekkalolin.html

 

Waterproof utility boxes in three sizes:

http://www.campmor.com/webapp/commerce/command/CategoryDisplay?cgrfnbr=7695&cgmenbr=226

 

Waterproof, crushproof Otter Boxes: http://www.otterbox.com/index2.html

 

Waterproof, crushproof Pelican cases can be found here: http://www.cases4less.com/

 

Underseat canoe boxes for *really* large caches are great. You can also use those five gallon and smaller buckets found in Home Depot and Lowe's stores. The lids are good and tight and the handles usually don't go all the way through the sides of the bucket. Many of these can be found on eBay at just about any given time.

 

Sorry for the long links, shorterlink.com seems to be broken right now.

[Jake.Hazelip]

Ahhh, the modern American love of blind fear...

 

Anyway, I still think ammo cans suck and just ask for trouble. I was going to use an 80mm mortar ammo tube, but decided against it when I thought about all the stupid people actually thiking that a terrorist faction coordinated enough to crash four planes in less than two hours on one day would actually hide a bomb or poison in the woods away from any targets...

 

Anyway, here are alternatives I've found:

 

Kalamata olive containers. I have these in what I think is the five gallon size. I have about a dozen. I've been thinking about sending a few to Jeremy to let him sell them on the site as a kind of geocaching kit. They have a double lid with o-ring. They're great. They also come in smaller but usable sizes, but I haven't been able to track them down. Example (small size...I can't find one of the larger one): http://shop.store.yahoo.com/chiamp/greekkalolin.html

 

Waterproof utility boxes in three sizes:

http://www.campmor.com/webapp/commerce/command/CategoryDisplay?cgrfnbr=7695&cgmenbr=226

 

Waterproof, crushproof Otter Boxes: http://www.otterbox.com/index2.html

 

Waterproof, crushproof Pelican cases can be found here: http://www.cases4less.com/

 

Underseat canoe boxes for *really* large caches are great. You can also use those five gallon and smaller buckets found in Home Depot and Lowe's stores. The lids are good and tight and the handles usually don't go all the way through the sides of the bucket. Many of these can be found on eBay at just about any given time.

 

Sorry for the long links, shorterlink.com seems to be broken right now.

[LazyLeopard]

Some places it's just not sensible to hide anything, however well labelled. We had a discussion in the UK forum recently about caches placed in locations that (to a UK resident) were likely to cause problems. They were micro-caches in a railway station and an airport. Many of us have experienced travel delays as a result of bomb warnings and so on, and PA announcements about not leaving anything un-attended are made at airports and railway stations frequently. The concensus was that the caches should be removed (with the hider's agreement). If such a location nevertheless cries out for a cache then there's always the virtual cache option.

 

Purrs... LazyLeopard http://www.lazyleopard.org.uk

[+lostinjersey]

This cache used to be located in the middle of the GWB. I sought it once (post 9/11) I didn't like the location as I felt very exposed & conspicuous. I know that the National Guard uses helicopters, so a guy fumbling around & hanging out for a proloinged time on the middle of a large bridge leading into manhatten, nah he won't seem suspicious. The cache was removed (presumably by the police), and is now replaced. I haven't sought it, don't intend to, but from the mapping software I use, it appears to be hid somehwere near the support section, almost as brilliantly bad as the first place. Someone is going to get arrested in this "arrest you & ask questions later" post 9/11 environment...

 

Team GWho

 

WUHOO TEAMGWHO!

[Jake.Hazelip]

That is indeed a dumb cache.

[+Jamie Z]

You know, I don't want to get into a flame war, but I tried to look through some of that guys other hidden caches and I just gave up. Every one of them is written in hacker. I thought that if just one was, that might be amusing... but all of them? Geesh.

 

Jamie

 

(My first post. Isn't that sweet?)

[MajBach]

quote:

---

Originally posted by brokenwing:

o-do person places a bomb or what have you in one of these things.

---

 

While it is certainly possible that someone could do this, we have to be realistic and not live in fear. If someone wanted to hurt other people, where are plenty of better ways to do it than placing an explosive device in a box that may or may not ever be found again. Besides, the possibility also exists that someone could place a bomb in your car while you are in the grocery store. Shall we all stop leaving our car unattended because of it? Do we all start checking the car out for bombs before we get in? No, there is little point. You are much more likely to die on the highway in a car accident than by a car bomb.

 

It just is not very likely someone would do this kind of random act. There are much better ways to terrorize people and cause mass causalities. Public places are much more likely to be bombed than a container in the woods.

 

In reference to your idea about "Strict rules, and perhaps a governing body", I fail to see how this could make any difference at all in whether or not such a thing ever happened. Can you explain how this would help? Remember, malicious people don't follow rules.

 

Thanks.

 

------------------

Brokenwing

_http://www.cordianet.com/geocaching_

---

 

I am not living in fear nor do I plan to stop geocaching. Like it is often stated, 'if we stop doing such and such, then they win'. I do think I am being realistic however. Someone planting a bomb in my car specifcally is targeted at me, or it is a random act. since there are far more cars than geocaches, little worry. However, there are geocacher haters and it is drawing attention to itself. Some weirdos like seeing their name in the paper. It's random but targeted at the same time. Kind of like arson.

i'm not suggesting we all live in fear or even be any more vigilant than we are. I'm merely stating that I believe it will happen and I think it sucks that I am pessimistic about be even more so because I have reason to be. How is it any different than dropping cinder blocks from bridges or spiking Hallowe'en treats? It happens, all to often.

I too fail to forsee how a governing body could make any difference. That too, doesn't mean it will not happen.

 

MajBach

 

You can't have everything.

where would you put it?

[DisQuoi]

quote:

---

Originally posted by GammaBoo:

 

They hold up a LOT better than plastic containers, and the contents are safe from the elements and critters.

 

I put stickers over all of the printing on the can. The stickers include the notice "GEOCACHE SITE---DO NOT VANDALIZE". I then put the can in a sturdy dark plastic bag along with the official geocaching notice, laminated, OUTSIDE the ammo can. Then I wrap the whole thing in a piece of camouflage burlap. Finally I hide the cache so it can't be seen from the nearest trail or path.

 

Even this can probably be improved on. Any suggestions?

---

 

I have placed three ammo cans. They are all painted canary yellow with the geocaching handpainted on the front. I also painted the name of the cache and WWW.GEOCACHING.COM. I may even paint a peace sign on the next one.

[DisQuoi]

quote:

---

Originally posted by GammaBoo:

 

They hold up a LOT better than plastic containers, and the contents are safe from the elements and critters.

 

I put stickers over all of the printing on the can. The stickers include the notice "GEOCACHE SITE---DO NOT VANDALIZE". I then put the can in a sturdy dark plastic bag along with the official geocaching notice, laminated, OUTSIDE the ammo can. Then I wrap the whole thing in a piece of camouflage burlap. Finally I hide the cache so it can't be seen from the nearest trail or path.

 

Even this can probably be improved on. Any suggestions?

---

 

I have placed three ammo cans. They are all painted canary yellow with the geocaching handpainted on the front. I also painted the name of the cache and WWW.GEOCACHING.COM. I may even paint a peace sign on the next one.

[+lostinjersey]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jamie Z:

You know, I don't want to get into a flame war, but I tried to look through some of that guys other hidden caches and I just gave up. Every one of them is written in hacker. I thought that if just one was, that might be amusing... but _all_ of them? Geesh.

 

Jamie

 

(My first post. Isn't that sweet?)

---

 

I HATE that technogeek speak spelling of his. I actually have a lot of trouble reading his cache descriptions, ergo I havent sought them out. When Cache Ninja can speak english, I'll seek his caches. I asked him politely about this & he adamantly refused. No problem. Too bad that idea talked about in another folder about "IGNORE" buttons isn't in effect. maybe if he knew folks were ignoring his caches because of that technocrap writing style, he'd get the hint that it interferes with our enjoyment of the cache since I can't read any of it.

 

William

 

WUHOO TEAMGWHO!

[+travisl]

See this thread. They were very nice about it, but like us, would like some way to know what to look for.