Hmm, Iraq has GPS jammers..

January 15, 2003

These days, the word 'patriot' seems to be synonymous with 'warmonger' ...and very little of what is currently going on in this country in the aftermath of 9/11 falls under the category of 'patriotism'. McCarthyism is a better word for it.

(As for all these so called 'soldiers' who are posting ...no offense, but, this is the internet ...and for all I know you could be a 12 year old girl sitting in your PJ's ...claiming to be whomever ...therefore, any post where someone makes dubious claims ...I take with a grain of salt.)

It all boils down to how well the media and political spinmeisters have done their job (excellently, by the way)...convincing the American public to believe its about the Flag, Mom, and Apple Pie, when the exact opposite is true ...it's all about money ...specifically, oil money.

I too, remember the Gulf War ...I remember how we blew the chance to oust Saddam at that time ...and here we are right back there, just as predicted.

I also remember further back than that, to the 1970's, when (surprise!) Saddam was our friend, and Iran was our current 'bad guy'. How did Saddam get so powerful? We made him that way, thats how.

Talk about 'forgetting about history ...doomed to repeat it'... Please, don't make me laugh.

The attention span of most Americans today seems to be about as long as the average TV commercial, with an intelligence level to match.

Read this article for a sobering reminder of just what we are doing to ourselves, and how we look to others.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,482-543296,00.html

1.4k · January 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by clpsAs for all these so called 'soldiers' who are posting ...no offense, but, this is the internet ...and for all I know you could be a 12 year old girl sitting in your PJ's ...claiming to be whomever ...therefore, any post where someone makes dubious claims ...I take with a grain of salt.)

My record is open for anyone to see. Photos here. What have you done for your country? Hmmm... after looking at your profile, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?

In retrospect, I think you are a TROLL. Is there still a reward for pointing out trolls? Can somebody tell me that? How do I collect my troll prize???

Mike. Desert_Warrior (aka KD9KC).

El Paso, Texas.

Citizens of this land may own guns. Not to threaten their neighbors, but to ensure themselves of liberty and freedom.

They are not assault weapons anymore... they are HOMELAND DEFENSE WEAPONS!

[This message was edited by Desert_Warrior on January 15, 2003 at 11:11 AM.]

January 15, 2003

Dont trolls live under bridges????

I'm a man and I can change if I have to,I guess.

January 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Desert_Warrior:

quote:
Originally posted by clpsAs for all these so called 'soldiers' who are posting ...no offense, but, this is the internet ...and for all I know you could be a 12 year old girl sitting in your PJ's ...claiming to be whomever ...therefore, any post where someone makes dubious claims ...I take with a grain of salt.)

My record is open for anyone to see. http://www.qsl.net/kd9kc/Gulfwar.html What have you done for your country? Hmmm... after looking at your profile, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?

In retrospect, I think you are a TROLL. Is there still a reward for pointing out trolls? Can somebody tell me that? How do I collect my troll prize???

Mike. Desert_Warrior (aka KD9KC).

El Paso, Texas.

Citizens of this land may own guns. Not to threaten their neighbors, but to ensure themselves of liberty and freedom.

They are not assault weapons anymore... they are HOMELAND DEFENSE WEAPONS!

[This message was edited by Desert_Warrior on January 15, 2003 at 11:11 AM.]

...I doubt if he(she?) has ever worn a combat boot, much less experienced a theatre of armed conflict first hand. The world can appear deceptively simple when you watch it on TV from the comfort and safety of your living room.

Cheers.

Terry.

(...another 'so called' soldier)

[This message was edited by Cache Canucks on January 15, 2003 at 03:12 PM.]

January 15, 2003

What about if we convince North Korea to bomb Iraq?

Wouldn't that solve two problems at once?

========================================

Friends don't let Friends geocache drunk.

January 15, 2003

When all you do is follow the orders of your superiors, with no thought as to the consequence of your actions. Dare to think for yourself for even a fraction of a second about just what the heck you were/are doing over there in Iraq/Kuwait.

You probably still think it was about 'liberating the Kuwaiti people'. (It was about the oil then, too ....truth be known.)

It's funny how the response to my last post is all about trying to prove who you are or aren't, rather than addressing the points that were presented.

Go ahead and resort to name-calling and questioning others worth based on some lame statistics on a web site ...it's just what I would expect as a reply.

All kinds of chest thumping and posturing won't change the facts ...it's about the oil. Always has been, always will be in that neck of the woods. You're just to tied up in your own self-importance to see it.

Whether I choose to post cache finds or not is as relevant to this conversation as flying a kite. It's called 'privacy' ...something we may be in short supply of very soon if we keep on going down the direction we're headed as a nation.

1.2k · January 15, 2003

Man do you speak the truth.... big time!!!

I remember sitting on the autobahn seat of my tank commanders position and wondering late one night if anyone would care or appreciate anything we were doing 100 years from now. The stars were so bright I didn't even need my nods to see out to the edge of our perimeter, it was beautiful, and horrid all at the same time...sigh.

I only came back into this thread to remind those that care about the original subject, GPS jammers...lol, that we do have those wonderful EMP cruise missles that will be fired in way ahead of time to take out electronic devices such as, let's see, GPS jammers? They are actually detonated and have a mix of metals, minerals, chemicals and explosives that create a huge microwave effect that acts the same as the electromagnetic pulse you would get from a small nuke. This will take out computers, jammers, radars, etc. by burning out the unprotected circuits. It is extremely effective. For every measure, we have a countermeasure, and for every countermeasuer, we have a counter-countermeasure.... you didn't know you had such a great military, did ya???

To my two oldest sons, serving on ships at sea (well, my son on the sub says the other one is serving on a target, navy humor...)I give my profound thanks for carying on a family tradition of service, and to God I give my prayers for their safety, and the safety of all our sons and daughters as they go forth to do their duty. Luckily for this country some of us know what needs to be done, and what has to be done, and are willing to do it, regardless of risk or cost to us personally. We owe so much to those that have gone before us and secured us the rights we enjoy today. Desert Warrior said it the best, thank a soldier.

Hooah!!

Captain M. E. McKinney

USARMY (ret)

aka Breaktrack

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

1.2k · January 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by clps:
When all you do is follow the orders of your superiors, with no thought as to the consequence of your actions. Dare to think for yourself for even a fraction of a second about just what the heck you were/are doing over there in Iraq/Kuwait.

You probably still think it was about 'liberating the Kuwaiti people'. (It was about the oil then, too ....truth be known.)

All kinds of chest thumping and posturing won't change the facts ...it's about the oil. Always has been, always will be in that neck of the woods. You're just to tied up in your own self-importance to see it.

It's called 'privacy' ...something we may be in short supply of very soon if we keep on going down the direction we're headed as a nation.

Hooookay, boy, we're really having fun now, eh?

On many levels, you are correct, it does have a great deal to do with oil, no doubt. The only thing is you seem to be off the mark about why it is about the oil. You seem to think it's simply about someone making money, when that is actually not the case. Those that are intelligent enough to give the subject some thought know that our entire economy runs on a sea of oil, period. We don't have to like it, and we ought to do something to get out of that prediciment, but that is how it is now and will be for most of our lifetimes. The solution to the problem is not at hand and won't be for some time so we have to deal with our situation as realistically as possible.

Either we stop tin-horn dictators that threaten to destabilize the region even more than it already is (through blackmailing their neighbors with WMD) or we prepare to move our society back several steps from where it is, along with all the bad things that will come with it. Yes, we have a standard of living that is to be envied around most of the rest of the world but without the petroleum products you use every day that standard would fall rapidly. Spare me the liberal hoo-ha about the environment and how wasteful we are, etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum, we all know it already, but I don't see many people putting their money where their mouth is so that leaves the soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines to go and secure the area so that things don't get so far out of hand that we become like our dear friend Russia is now, scrambling to keep from becoming a third world country itself.

Chest thumping is nothing to be ashamed of my friend, when you've earned the right to thump your chest, rather than having that right handed to you by others. Having a right to do something doesn't make it "right" for you to take advantage of it recklessly. Open your eyes and see that just because you may not agree with the reasons things are being done does not mean we are wrong to do those things.

History is a tricky mistress isn't it? Saying it is our fault for building up Saddam in the first place is like saying we are responsible for all bank robberies because we put the money is such neat accesible areas... with good lighting. You've all heard the Arab saying, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend". Guess what, you don't always like everything your friends do, but they are still your friend, until they try to burglarize your house or slash the tires on your car, or molest one of your kids, then the friendship is over and you have to call the cops. Now, does that make you wrong to have been their friend in the first place, of course not. You deal with the situation as it stands, in reality, and the reality is we supported hime at one time, and now, we don't. Didn't we used to really get along well with that one county, the U.S.S.R.? Seems like we get along with them a lot better nowadays, but, using your logic, we ought to still be bombing them because that's what we intended to do in the old days, yes?

C'mon, no one wants a war, especially the guys that have to go fight it, trust me, but if you think that this one can be avoided if we would just stop driving SUV's you are fooling yourself, and badly. This war is partly because of the oil, partly because of Saddam's propensity for weapons he doesn't need, and partly because he trains and supports terrorist groups and we all know it. We cannot just stick our heads in the sand to make it all go away, it won't, it will only get worse. So those of you that want to object, please feel free to do so, while at the same time thanking those that secured that right for you, and try to make your arguments more than just "It's all about the oil". Please, gimme a break....

"PCT" (Proudly Chest Thumping) because I "EARNED" the right to.

Captain M. E. McKinney

US Army (retired)

aka Breaktrack

(oh yeah, and I couldn't care less whether you believe me or not.... machs nichts)

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

1.4k · January 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by clps:

Go ahead and resort to name-calling and questioning others worth based on some lame statistics on a web site ...it's just what I would expect as a reply.

Hmmm.... I am not the one who said anything about a 12 year old girl in PJs. I just asked you what you have done for your country. A simple question really. I didn't see any answer, just your proclaimed name calling.

You are hereby irrelevent... go back under your bridge. Obviously honor and integrity do exist, for people who have no fear. Who might that be you ask. I would guess the ones who are not hiding behind some lame excuse about privacy. Wwill you be a man, stand up and show yourself? Or will you slink away under cover cover of darkness, knowing only your baseless fear to stand up and be counted, using lame excuses to hide? Who dares to cross your bridge? Heh heh heh, what does it matter, you won't come out anyway. A brave man dies but once. A coward dies a thousand times. How many lives have you lost so far?

Again, I have nothing to hide. Come out and show us.... if you dare. I am standing on your bridge TROLL.

Mike. Desert_Warrior (aka KD9KC).

El Paso, Texas.

Citizens of this land may own guns. Not to threaten their neighbors, but to ensure themselves of liberty and freedom.

They are not assault weapons anymore... they are HOMELAND DEFENSE WEAPONS!

January 15, 2003

The subject is jammers. All the name calling about ones opinion. Shame. Off subject again. I think if it came down to it, all of us ( now this is my opinion) would come together & defend our country. Just because you don't serve doesn't mean you won't defend. I (if God willing) would pick up a weapon & defend my family. But I'm not into serving. Do you understand what I'm trying to get at here???? Open you eyes & mind & let it flow.

Now, did anyone watch the special on Why we can't kill Saddam???? On the History channel? It may have been a repeat. But History does that.

OK......Take the subject back to the Jammers..

Happy & Safe Caching.

rocker51

January 15, 2003

The ones that actually DO the fighting (i.e. killing), aren't usually the chest thumping type. They are (as a rule) not exactly proud that they had to take human life in the name of their country, for whatever the reason, and do not 'brag' about being a 'warrior'. They usually don't like even talking about their tour of duty.

The chest thumpers are usually the ones that served well behind the lines, and didn't see a bit of action ...other than errant fire. It's hard to be a self-professed 'hero', I guess, when you're washing dishes on KP.

And I don't have a problem with fighting Saddam over the oil, the problem I have is the lying being done to the general public as to the 'real reason' for being there.

January 16, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Desert_Warrior:

quote:
Originally posted by thestraws:
I saw the subject of bigcall's post and thought he was joking, but someone has managed to hide a cache in Iraq!http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=35424

Now, _who wants to be first to find it!_

Perhaps my son, Army_Scout, will be one of the first. I will mail him the link. I think he has internet access from the rear lines. Hmmm... maybe I better send him the printed cache page, don't know if he can get away from the front lines or not. Scouts lead the way.

Desert_Warrior,

I for one am proud of what your son is doing over there. I'm in the military, although as a computer programmer, I haven't been to the front, I've got several friends in or on their way to the desert. A man I was in school with until mid-November is a flight enigneer for close air support AC-130 gunships. He deployed three days after we graduated. And, yes, I'm on the hot list, too. I know your son, and all of us, are ready and willing to carry out our orders to protect the liberties of this country.

(Yes, I saw the earlier post about how could the military be willing to particpate in something that had no purpose. My difference of opinion on the purpose aside, we (the military) are not here to determine what is in our nation's best interest, we are here to implement what our leaders have determined are in our nation's best interest!

January 16, 2003

OK, I read the rest of the thread after I responded to the Desert_Warrior posting. It's good to know there's still this many patriots out there. Sometimes it seems like everyone is complaining about this country instead of being thankful for what we have (I've seen how other countries have it!). As far as the trolls, I look at it this way: I enlisted to defend their right to be a troll, and my right to call them a troll.

1.2k · January 16, 2003

Well, those that get it, get it, those that don't, probably never will. Those that have served, as far as I've seen on here haven't bragged about killing anyone, or about being proud of having done so. The posts I've read have bragged about serving their country, period, as I did in mine. Neither in my former profession, the profession of arms, nor in my current profession, law enforcement, will I ever "brag" about being forced to harm or kill anyone. I will "brag" about serving my community, my state, and my country because I have earned the right to do so with my service.

Thestraws said it well, as did those that have gone before, I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it. The only difference is, I and others have put our narrow butts on the line for that saying, and that is the only difference that counts.

All that said, I am really interested in seeing one of those GPS jammers, as it would definitely make a cache hunt a little more challenging, don't ya think? Hide a cache and put a GPS jammer nearby, set to operate at random periods of time. One minute you have a good read, the next you don't..... and not a tree or building in sight? LOL. I can see the log entry now, "This one had us confused as our GPS was acting CRAZY!!!!!"

It's a thought anyway....lol.

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

January 16, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by clps:
"...Interesting thing about soldiers, the ones that actually DO the fighting (i.e. killing), aren't usually the chest thumping type. They are (as a rule) not exactly proud that they had to take human life in the name of their country, for whatever the reason, and do not 'brag' about being a 'warrior'. They usually don't like even talking about their tour of duty.

The chest thumpers are usually the ones that served well behind the lines, and didn't see a bit of action ...other than errant fire. It's hard to be a self-professed 'hero', I guess, when you're washing dishes on KP..."

'clps', you're so predictable (as anyone who has stumbled upon some of your posts in other forums would attest).

Interesting how you back-peddle your statements and adopt a different 'angle of approach' whenever you're confronted with how little you really know, huh? First you suggest that some folks who've made mention of their military service here are perhaps "...a 12 year old girl sitting in your PJ's ...claiming to be whomever...". Then, when proof of their service is pushed in front of your face (which, I suspect, is flat), you come back and - in yet another stroke of 'armchair postulation' - attempt to cast judgement on their 'type' of military service.

But of course, you're 'clps', and you continue to 'put your foot in it':

quote:
Originally posted by clps:
"...The chest thumpers are usually the ones that served well behind the lines, and didn't see a bit of action ...other than errant fire..."

Although I didn't serve in the Gulf War (my own 'trial by fire' was as a blue beret in the villages of Southern Lebanon back in 1978 ...look it up), anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of that conflict - as yours surely is at best - should appreciate that when you start lobbing ballistic missles over hundreds of kilometres, there is no 'rear'. In fact, if you look at the stats, those who served behind the FEBA (a military acronym ...I could tell you what it means, but maybe you'll learn something by doing a 'Google' to find out for yourself) were as much at risk - if not more so.

But again, what would you know...?

Apparently, very little.

January 16, 2003

Or position changes here ...my position is still the same: (its pretty simple really)

1)I don't believe we should enter this conflict unless absolutely necessary, i.e. all other options are exhausted. And even then, we better be darn sure we go into this with UN backing, and full support from our 'allies' and other Muslim nations in the region.

2) We should be upfront and clear to the US public and others, as to our true motives ....to secure the oil in order to stabilize that commodity for the 'world' (read U.S.) market.

Only then can it be judged whether or not the U.S. public supports this country's (U.S.) energy policies.

As for the '12 year old in PJ's' comment ...if it doesn't apply, why should it bother you?

You folks make all types of comments regarding my supposed character and motives ... which doesn't bother me a bit. As some have correctly stated ...you should be able to state what you like, when you like. It's called 'freedom of speech' ....and it's what makes this country great.

January 16, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by clps:
Or position changes here ...my position is still the same: (its pretty simple really)

1)I don't believe we should enter this conflict unless absolutely necessary, i.e. all other options are exhausted. And even then, we better be darn sure we go into this with UN backing, and full support from our 'allies' and other Muslim nations in the region.

2) We should be upfront and clear to the US public and others, as to our true motives ....to secure the oil in order to stabilize that commodity for the 'world' (read U.S.) market.

Only then can it be judged whether or not the U.S. public supports this country's (U.S.) energy policies.

As for the '12 year old in PJ's' comment ...if it doesn't apply, why should it bother you?

You folks make all types of comments regarding my supposed character and motives ... which doesn't bother me a bit. As some have correctly stated ...you should be able to state what you like, when you like. It's called 'freedom of speech' ....and it's what makes this country great.

Seems to me that (true to form) you've sanitized your earlier inflammatory statements and distilled them down to a couple of fairly benign and far less controversial points under the guise of supposedly reiterating what you were saying all along ...which is nonsense. Your posts in this forum have been nothing less than insulting to those who PRESERVE your precious 'freedom of speech', and all you offer in apology is some backhanded weak-knee gibberish about "...if it doesn't apply, why should it bother you?..."??!?

You really are a 'piece of work'.

1.2k · January 16, 2003

I just KNEW I loved those Canadians!!!

Hoooah!!!

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

January 16, 2003

I'm not apologizing for anything ...the fact is, this is the internet, and I could have a page up in ten minutes with photos of 'me' storming the beaches at Normandy, standing next to General McArthur, and chasing Rommel thru the desert ...or whatever. It doesn't mean its really 'me' ...or that its reality, it's just some photos on a website, period.

Here's a simple truth about the internet ...in case you're new to the medium. Anyone can claim to be anything on the internet, and it's very easy to manufacture 'proof'. I'm always skeptical (very skeptical, actually) of people attempting to bolster their 'word' based on who they claim to be, or the 'experience' they claim to have.

I'm not saying you are or you aren't who/what you claim to be, only that ...just because you claim to be something, doesn't mean I believe that you really are ...or that I believe what you say any more or any less because of it.

I guess the only person who really knows one way or the other is yourself, and when all is said and done, thats all that really matters.

If you reread my posts, my position hasn't changed one iota ...and I'm glad you finally copped to it being all about the oil

January 16, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by clps:
I'm not apologizing for anything ...the fact is, this is the internet, and I could have a page up in ten minutes with photos of 'me' storming the beaches at Normandy, standing next to General McArthur, and chasing Rommel thru the desert ...or whatever. It doesn't mean its really 'me' ...or that its reality, it's just some photos on a website, period.

Here's a simple truth about the internet ...in case you're new to the medium. Anyone can claim to be anything on the internet, and it's very easy to manufacture 'proof'. I'm always skeptical (very skeptical, actually) of people attempting to bolster their 'word' based on who they claim to be, or the 'experience' they claim to have.

I'm not saying you are or you aren't who/what you claim to be, only that ...just because you claim to be something, doesn't mean I believe that you really are ...or that I believe what you say any more or any less because of it.

I guess the only person who really knows one way or the other is yourself, and when all is said and done, thats all that really matters.

If you reread my posts, my position hasn't changed one iota ...and I'm glad you finally copped to it being all about the oil

(...what an idiot )

1.2k · January 16, 2003

By the reasoning of our new friend none of our opinions have any significance because we could be "fake". The internet allows us to "manufacture" a personae in order to attempt to bolster our argument.

An observation: my account is real, and has a profile attached, and I have a web page attached that can be examined at your leisure, whether or not it has any "real" content is completely at your discretion, of course. But the point is, I am available to confirm any detail you doubt, while you, are not. Your account is fake, there is no profile or contact information, so therefore, using your own reasoning, you could be some 16 year old disaffecte youth showing out by questioning your betters. On the other hand, you might just be one of those long haired hippie types that laughed at those of us who chose to serve voluntarily and thought us fools. Some poor little rich kid that never grew up and now has to get on the very internet you denegrate and spout liberal anti-american viewpoints while putting down those that helped guarantee you the right to do that very thing.

Isn't this a great country! We guarantee everyone the right to be a fool, so, I guess I should be gratified to see someone, like yourself, taking full advantage of that right. I now see things in a whole new light. Please, say something else really stupid and meaningless so that we who have served can revel in our accomplishment!!!

Man, I love this sport....LOL.

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

January 16, 2003

I guess the best defense is a good offense ...so you once again resort to belittlement and name calling to attempt to assert your position.

To clear matters up ...I'm not 'denegrating' the internet, just stating some fundamental facts about it which you don't seem able to comprehend. I also see that you fail to understand some other fundamental basics behind the internet, that being ...everyone's opinion is equal, no matter who or what they are, whether a housewife in Peoria, a taxi driver in New York, or a 12 year old with an AOL account ...it doesn't really matter ...demographics don't matter here. Nor does your purported 'expert' opinion matter any more or less than anyone else's.

Finally, while we're at it, lets dispel a common misconception regarding 'serving your country' (i.e. military service).

The truth is, (unless you were drafted, which is an entirely different matter) most people entering the military in the U.S. ever since the abolishment of the draft enter for two primary reasons.

1) They have no other prospects in the job market.

2) They are looking for Uncle Sam to foot the bill for a continuing education, so that they WILL have job prospects when they leave the military.

I wonder what we would dig up regarding your demeanor at the time ...were we to question your friends, family, teachers, neighbors, acquaintances, drill sergeant, etc., at the time you chose to enter the military?

I can't wait to hear the revisionist history in the responses to this post.

January 17, 2003

One other thing.

Its interesting that you think my viewpoints are 'anti-american' ...as you put it.

I guess anyone that doesn't agree with your gung-ho militaristic solution to the Iraq problem (or any other problem), is a 'commie' in your opinion ...which sort of makes my prior McCarthyism reference pretty accurate, I'd say.

Quite the contrary, in fact. I consider myslf a true american ...willing to speak out against a perceived injustice, even when that opinion is unpopular, or not 'politically correct'.

In the name of 'terror' we are giving up some of our fundamental American civil liberities, ...with, for instance, passage of legislation such as the (wrongly titled) 'Patriot Act' ...which is what I would call a truly 'anti-american' piece of legislation.

But I guess you don't mind that you've given up the right to be 'secure in your possesions' ...if it means you'll feel a little 'safer'.

January 17, 2003

For those of you who are fighting for my country, for those of you who have fought for my country, and for those of you who have children fighting for my country, you have my thanks, and my deepest respect. Debates such as this one would not be possible otherwise.

I've been going in circles my whole life. May as well make a hobby of it.

January 17, 2003

clps your an ar@#hole, we need people to fight for us when the situation arises - if it was not for these people we would not enjoy the civil liberties we do today (and I dont care whether they are doin the killing or cooking the food).

Keeping these civil liberties and protecting ourselves from peoples that would take these away from us is important - I think though before we embark on a course of war in this instance we do need the proper backing/endorsment from the UN, prosecuting war is a serious business and affects the lives of thousands of people.

3.1k · January 17, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by clps:
Interesting thing about soldiers

The ones that actually DO the fighting (i.e. killing), aren't usually the chest thumping type. They are (as a rule) not exactly proud that they had to take human life in the name of their country, for whatever the reason, and do not 'brag' about being a 'warrior'. They usually don't like even talking about their tour of duty.

The chest thumpers are usually the ones that served well behind the lines, and didn't see a bit of action ...other than errant fire. It's hard to be a self-professed 'hero', I guess, when you're washing dishes on KP.

quote:
Originally posted by clps:
Finally, while we're at it, lets dispel a common misconception regarding 'serving your country' (i.e. military service).

The truth is, (unless you were drafted, which is an entirely different matter) most people entering the military in the U.S. ever since the abolishment of the draft enter for two primary reasons.

1) They have no other prospects in the job market.

2) They are looking for Uncle Sam to foot the bill for a continuing education, so that they WILL have job prospects when they leave the military.

Wow, how do you know so much about the military? did you just make it up, or did you learn it on the Internet? Oh, wait...

quote:
Here's a simple truth about the internet ...in case you're new to the medium. Anyone can claim to be anything on the internet, and it's very easy to manufacture 'proof'.

Hmm....

I had to jump in here, as my brother is too busy defending you to come here and defend himself.

Thank you, military.

Mein Vater war ein Wandersmann, und ich hab' auch im Blut

1.2k · January 17, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by clps:
Finally, while we're at it, lets dispel a common misconception regarding 'serving your country' (i.e. military service).

The truth is, (unless you were drafted, which is an entirely different matter) most people entering the military in the U.S. ever since the abolishment of the draft enter for two primary reasons.

1) They have no other prospects in the job market.

2) They are looking for Uncle Sam to foot the bill for a continuing education, so that they WILL have job prospects when they leave the military.

I wonder what we would dig up regarding your demeanor at the time ...were we to question your friends, family, teachers, neighbors, acquaintances, drill sergeant, etc., at the time you chose to enter the military?

I can't wait to hear the revisionist history in the responses to this post.

Wow, I am amazed, you took me up on my proposal! Outstanding! But, in order to exercise due courtesy, I guess I should at least provide you an answer to the questions you have raised above.

Why did I enter the military even though there was no draft at the time? Hmmmm, actually, that is a very good question because it allows me to dispel the myth you also raised. You state the only reason individuals joined the military after the draft ended was to either get a free education or to obtain a job as they had no other abilities or prospects.

It is obvious that you fall into the "Blame America First" crowd all the way down to believing no one would join the military because they believed it was the right thing to do. No one could possibly believe that every American has an obligation to serve and help protect what others before us have won and defended with their lives. My own reasons I would normally not share with the likes of you, but, you decided it was part of our discussion, so, I'll put my reasons out there.

My father served on active duty in the U. S. Army for 24 years before he retired. I grew up a military dependent and I loved the life we had. Draft or no draft I was always impressed by my father's dedication and professionalism and knew that I would serve at least one term of active duty myself. I was in the Boy Scouts from the age of 11 and grew up learning that patriotism was nothing to be ashamed of or an aspect of my personality that I should keep to myself. I was made fully aware of what I owed to those that served in much more perilous times and the many that gave their lives that I might enjoy the many benefits of living in a free country. I was already set up to go to college when I originally joined the Army National Guard in Tennessee during my senior year of high school. I wanted to start as soon as I could and I didn't juust want to go to ROTC during school, just didn't seem like enough. So I started going to drills in January of my senior year and attended boot camp and advanced individual training at Fort Knox, Kentucky that summer. The funny thing was, when I got back home in October I really wasn't interested in going to college, I wanted to go on active duty right then and get out and do the job I had learned. So were the education benfits anything that I considered in my decision to join? Not really. It was there if I needed it, but I didn't really need it as my father was a Warrant Officer in the Army and we were okay with paying for college. So, issue one, not relevant.

The next issue is the "no prospect of getting meaningful work" which, in my case, would not have been a problem as I was already set up for college and I'd already been working since I was 16 and had a good work ethic. My lifelong desire was to work as a police officer and military training is definitely a benefit in that instance. So I did not need to go in the military in order to have work, but it was excellent training for my chosen profession.

Ironically, I wound up accepting an offer by the U. S. Navy the following January to go on active duty as they offered me a much better package than the Army did, who knew? So I served in the U. S. Navy for four years as an Electronics Technician, learning most importantly that electronics bored me to tears, no challenge whatsoever. So we live and learn.

I decided to not reenlist in the Navy as they did not have a true military police rate and I still wanted to be a law enforcement officer so I got out and joined the police department in nice town in Texas. At the same time I joined the Texas Air National Guard as an Air Force Security Police for two years so I could stay in the reserves once I was off active duty. When the Texas Army National Guard created a new Armor unit in my town I switched back the the Army and tanks once again. I didn't realize how much I had missed them! I spent the next 13 years in the Texas Army National Guard, attending OCS in 1988 and gaining my commission as an officer. My time in the Guard included my depoloyment on active duty on two separate occassions, both of which were ver interesting situations. No bragging or chest thumping necessary, it's what we do. Also during the later years got divorced and obtained custody of my two youngest children and as a single father had to juggle my reserve obligations with my home duty.

I served the last four years in a staff position with the U. S. Army Reserve which was a position allowing me to be a full time dad and part time soldier. I am now retired from the whole mess after nearly 28 years of service. At no time do I claim that I got nothing out of serving, I did, but not just what you seem to be implying. I have great pride in what I accomplished, and what I contributed. Furthering that tradition my sister served a tour in the U. S. Navy, and my brother served a tour in the U. S. Army. And it goes on, my two oldest sons are both on active duty at this time in the U. S. Navy. None of us HAD to serve, we were not forced to do anything, neither by a draft, nor by economic circumstances, nor because we were so inept that we couldn't do anything else. We have served because we chose to serve. It's kind of a family tradition if you will. For you to imply otherwise is the first real insult that you have flung, all else was all in the spirit of having a vigorous discussion, and was so considered by myself at least. I am actually enjoying the back and forth in this forum, as other's have said as well, it's a healthy expression of what we are all about.

Is it so hard for you to believe there are people out there that truly choose to spend a few years of their life to serve in the U. S. Military? Are you so ashamed of your own country that you feel that no one in it would feel it was worthy of a sacrifice of at least a few of it's citizens to defend it? Do we have to wait for the country to be in such dire straits that the very survival of our way of life is in jeopardy in order to justify being in the military? We won the cold war because we showed our enemies we were serious and would go to whatever length it took to defend ourselves. Did we always do so in a manner that made sense, probably not, but it was a symptom of the times in which we lived. But those that wanted to destroy the U. S. had to look across an ocean and see a strong active duty military, backed by a huge reserve force with which they would have to contend, so they didn't do anything to us directly, they had to do it through proxy.

Yes, we served, our service was important, and it still is. We serve YOU my friend, that's what irks us when you insult our military service. That's what makes us incredulous at your oversimplification of the reasons for the Iraq situation. It is never so simple as those that claim to be "anti-war" want to make it out. It is an escape, an excuse, a dodge to keep from having to understand the very complex and intricate forces that are working to tear us down in order to build up our enemy. No, I don't consider you a "commie", LOL. I consider you an individual who has fallen victim to revisionist history that tells you America is at fault for eveything that has happened to the world since Teddy Roosevelt was President.

Be that as it may, it seems to me this discussion has taken on a life of it's own and maybe it would be appropriate to create our own thread for discussion of such matters, there are times when I forget that we were originally talking abou tGPS jammers....LOL.

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

9.4k · January 17, 2003

I think everyone forgot that this was a Geocaching discussion forum. Go somewhere else to discuss politics. The initial discussion was of GPS and Iraq. Closing this thread since it has degraded to off-topic political discussions.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

Hmm, Iraq has GPS jammers..

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