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Europeans Want Their Own GPS


MissJenn

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Here is a link to an interesting story I just found:

 

Europeans Want Their Own GPS

Here is JUST a small snippet:

 

quote:
Despite strong opposition from Washington, the European Union has voted to move ahead on its Galileo satellite-based navigation system, which will compete with Uncle Sam's Global Positioning System. No date has been set for launching the Galileo system.

 

You can aslo download a document from Galileo:

GALILEO: A decision must be taken urgently

Pick "en" for english...

 

 

What do you think? How much support is there from the general population?

 

I'd love to hear from our European geocacher friends, too.

 

-----

Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious.

 

[This message was edited by MissJenn on March 13, 2002 at 12:10 PM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by MissJenn:

Despite strong opposition from Washington, the European Union has voted to move ahead on its Galileo satellite-based navigation system, which will compete with Uncle Sam's Global Positioning System. No date has been set for launching the Galileo system.


 

There's already at least one alternative to NAVSTAR (what we commonly call "GPS") out there in the cold dark reaches of space; Russia already operates the GLONASS constellation of navigational satellites. (http://www.rssi.ru/SFCSIC/english.html) So if the EU wants their own, well, why not? What could it hurt?

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quote:
Originally posted by oregone:

Is it okay to place caches on navigation satellites? Someone should call the EU's version of NASA and see if there's room for some tupperware on one of those things.

 

all rights reserved, all wrongs reversed


 

How about we all get a pool going and just send someone up as a space tourist. The lucky person just bungees it to the outside of the space station. Definitely a 5/5.

 

rdw

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"Look for the old Soyet debris, turn left, float about 500 yards towards the secret american nuke platform and look for a tupperware container under the third mirv"

 

Seriously, if the Euros get thier birds up, could old gps units be firmware upgraded to include them?

 

How much of an accuracy boost would it ammount to?

 

-tom

 

----------------------------

TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

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After a quick read of the first document from Jeremy's link:

-Operational in 2008 at best. Something always goes wrong

-Basic service is free but I didn't see an accuracy range for the basic service, just the pay service

-More reliable than GPS. I've never had any GPS reception problems. Perhaps it uses a stronger signal so you can receive it if you're in the woods (I haven't read the technical docs yet)

-30 sats to GPS's 24

-Supposedley better than GPS block III. By the time Galileo is running the US will probably have block IV up.

 

Basically, the European Union is having an inferiority attack. Right now we think Garmin vs. Magellan is divisive. Could you imagine GPS vs Galileo? icon_eek.gif

 

rdw

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After a quick read of the first document from Jeremy's link:

-Operational in 2008 at best. Something always goes wrong

-Basic service is free but I didn't see an accuracy range for the basic service, just the pay service

-More reliable than GPS. I've never had any GPS reception problems. Perhaps it uses a stronger signal so you can receive it if you're in the woods (I haven't read the technical docs yet)

-30 sats to GPS's 24

-Supposedley better than GPS block III. By the time Galileo is running the US will probably have block IV up.

 

Basically, the European Union is having an inferiority attack. Right now we think Garmin vs. Magellan is divisive. Could you imagine GPS vs Galileo? icon_eek.gif

 

rdw

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The overall situation between galileo and GPS is quite different in many respects.

 

Galileo is a commercial enterprise and being funded (well that's the plan) by the EU. There's this thing that they don't wont to rely on other countries. However in doing this there's really a whole range of different countries, funding issues and so far there's really been no absolute get up and go with it as many countries appear a little hesitant (especially when it comes to euro's).

 

Who will operate it, what's the structure of the revenue stream, what future regulatory actions will be put in place, the interoperability of a free open system (which GPS is) with a fee-based encrypted system, safety-of-life applications (especially if encrypted), misuse is a consideration with so many different countries at the controls, sprectrum use and will there be open specifications and standards for equal worldwide market access (as with GPS).

 

That's one thing with GPS as some might not like it military controlled but ever seen the military go on strike icon_eek.gif

 

2 systems with joint operability is certainly an advantage but that also existed with GLONASS to a certain extent but never really got of the ground. Right now GLONASS is not really an operational system with only a very (very) limited number of sats still operational.

 

Galileo still has some way to go and the first is the EU Transport ministers (all of them) agreeing and so far that's been one stumbling block. Maybe they've got over that hurdle as there was meeting due this month but then there's been do or die ultimatum type meetings before without results.

 

Cheers, Kerry.

 

I never get lost icon_smile.gif everybody keeps telling me where to go icon_wink.gif

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The overall situation between galileo and GPS is quite different in many respects.

 

Galileo is a commercial enterprise and being funded (well that's the plan) by the EU. There's this thing that they don't wont to rely on other countries. However in doing this there's really a whole range of different countries, funding issues and so far there's really been no absolute get up and go with it as many countries appear a little hesitant (especially when it comes to euro's).

 

Who will operate it, what's the structure of the revenue stream, what future regulatory actions will be put in place, the interoperability of a free open system (which GPS is) with a fee-based encrypted system, safety-of-life applications (especially if encrypted), misuse is a consideration with so many different countries at the controls, sprectrum use and will there be open specifications and standards for equal worldwide market access (as with GPS).

 

That's one thing with GPS as some might not like it military controlled but ever seen the military go on strike icon_eek.gif

 

2 systems with joint operability is certainly an advantage but that also existed with GLONASS to a certain extent but never really got of the ground. Right now GLONASS is not really an operational system with only a very (very) limited number of sats still operational.

 

Galileo still has some way to go and the first is the EU Transport ministers (all of them) agreeing and so far that's been one stumbling block. Maybe they've got over that hurdle as there was meeting due this month but then there's been do or die ultimatum type meetings before without results.

 

Cheers, Kerry.

 

I never get lost icon_smile.gif everybody keeps telling me where to go icon_wink.gif

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The Galileo system will probably be free for anyone who wants to use it, but for $30, members will have access to "Members Only" satellites. Of course, there will only be a few of these, and most of those will have the "Members Only" feature turned off after a few weeks...

 

25021_1200.gif

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Galileo is supposed to be more accurate than GPS, mostly because of using three frequencies, not two, and making them all available to private receivers. No "military only" signal, that is.

 

The intention was that the industry should fund a great deal of this project. Now, the intended funders can't really see how to get their money back. This has given the politicians cold feet, and split up the EU in three categories:

1: For

2: Against

3: Ehhhh...

 

Anders

24148_200.jpg

 

Anders

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Anders, so what's going to be the difference compared to GPS L1, L2 & L5 apart from the fact that one is actually being progressed today and one is still being decided around a table.

 

Galileo's biggest problem is the decisions (as you say) not the technology and when it's all said and done is there going be a real difference in accuracy.

 

Funny about the eiro bit icon_wink.gif

 

The following is Galileo's accuarcy specs

 

Open Service - single freq, accuracy @ 95% Horz=15m, Vert=35m, no integrity, no monitoring, standard ionosphere model and no certification/liability.

 

Open service - dual freq, accuracy @ 95% Horz=4m, vert=8m, ionosphere corrected by dual freq, no integrity, no monitoring and no certification/liability.

 

Safety-of-Life Service - currently dual freq only, accuracy @ 95% Horz=4m, Vert=8m, integrity monitored and will be a certified/liable system. Certification/liability comes at a cost to the user icon_eek.gif

 

Public-Regulated Service - dual freq, integrity yet to be defined/decided (@ Aug/2001), dual freq iono corrections, accuracy @ 95% Horz=4m, Vert=8m, certification/liability still under review.

 

Then there's the other commercial services including additional encrypted signals (same as what third parties provide with GPS) plus the wireless communication networks (so very revenue driven).

 

I don't see anything in all that which says galileo is anymore accurate than GPS and actually the modernization specs have GPS down to 1.5m

 

Cheers, Kerry.

 

I never get lost icon_smile.gif everybody keeps telling me where to go icon_wink.gif

 

[This message was edited by Kerry on March 13, 2002 at 03:45 PM.]

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Anders, so what's going to be the difference compared to GPS L1, L2 & L5 apart from the fact that one is actually being progressed today and one is still being decided around a table.

 

Galileo's biggest problem is the decisions (as you say) not the technology and when it's all said and done is there going be a real difference in accuracy.

 

Funny about the eiro bit icon_wink.gif

 

The following is Galileo's accuarcy specs

 

Open Service - single freq, accuracy @ 95% Horz=15m, Vert=35m, no integrity, no monitoring, standard ionosphere model and no certification/liability.

 

Open service - dual freq, accuracy @ 95% Horz=4m, vert=8m, ionosphere corrected by dual freq, no integrity, no monitoring and no certification/liability.

 

Safety-of-Life Service - currently dual freq only, accuracy @ 95% Horz=4m, Vert=8m, integrity monitored and will be a certified/liable system. Certification/liability comes at a cost to the user icon_eek.gif

 

Public-Regulated Service - dual freq, integrity yet to be defined/decided (@ Aug/2001), dual freq iono corrections, accuracy @ 95% Horz=4m, Vert=8m, certification/liability still under review.

 

Then there's the other commercial services including additional encrypted signals (same as what third parties provide with GPS) plus the wireless communication networks (so very revenue driven).

 

I don't see anything in all that which says galileo is anymore accurate than GPS and actually the modernization specs have GPS down to 1.5m

 

Cheers, Kerry.

 

I never get lost icon_smile.gif everybody keeps telling me where to go icon_wink.gif

 

[This message was edited by Kerry on March 13, 2002 at 03:45 PM.]

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When I stated that the accuracy was supposed to be better, I quoted an article in a Swedish magazine, Ny Teknik (New Technology).

I hadn't read the specs myself. Maybe it's because it's supposed to have more satellites, which means that the geometry can more often be favorable.

 

I'm not sure (but I'm old enough to admit, without blushing!). icon_eek.gif

 

Anders

 

[This message was edited by Anders on May 09, 2002 at 11:40 AM.]

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When I stated that the accuracy was supposed to be better, I quoted an article in a Swedish magazine, Ny Teknik (New Technology).

I hadn't read the specs myself. Maybe it's because it's supposed to have more satellites, which means that the geometry can more often be favorable.

 

I'm not sure (but I'm old enough to admit, without blushing!). icon_eek.gif

 

Anders

 

[This message was edited by Anders on May 09, 2002 at 11:40 AM.]

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Anders, yeah I wouldn't be too sure what an extra sat or 2 would really do. I suppose it would depend on some things we don't really know. Galileo is supposedly 30 all up (includes 3 spares) but not sure what the upper limit could really be but it would have to have some upper limit purely from a signal view point.

 

GPS as you know is a 24+3 system (total 27 from a max limit of 32 vehicles) but has run around the 28/29 for quite some time so things don't really appear all that much different.

 

Cheers, Kerry.

 

I never get lost icon_smile.gif everybody keeps telling me where to go icon_wink.gif

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Anders, yeah I wouldn't be too sure what an extra sat or 2 would really do. I suppose it would depend on some things we don't really know. Galileo is supposedly 30 all up (includes 3 spares) but not sure what the upper limit could really be but it would have to have some upper limit purely from a signal view point.

 

GPS as you know is a 24+3 system (total 27 from a max limit of 32 vehicles) but has run around the 28/29 for quite some time so things don't really appear all that much different.

 

Cheers, Kerry.

 

I never get lost icon_smile.gif everybody keeps telling me where to go icon_wink.gif

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I don't see how the EU'S birds could offer better performance over the gps satellites. When you get down to basics, a satellite provides a LOS (line of sight) signal. Whether for voice/data/video transmission or a beacon frequency for navigation purposes, the theory is the same. We realized this in the early days of satcom aboard navy ships. As the ship would turn the satellite antenna would be blocked from the satellite view by the mast of the ship (masking or masting). We beat this by having multiple antenna arrays. Increasing antenna gain had no affect nor did changing frequency. We noted the same problems whether using a uhf or a shf downlink frequency. Having been in that arena for over 20 years (gapfiller, comsat, leasat, etc.), my guess is that the EU wants to guanantee their geosynchronous real estate. There is a finite amount of space available in geosynchronous orbit. Sorry to babble, been a long time since I got to speak satelliteze.

 

LOST IN SPACE......

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Actually, I derived my information from a statement, made by Håkan Lans, in that magazine, Ny Teknik. But since I shortened it, it came out of its context somewhat. So here we go:

 

He said that Gallileo will give a higher accuracy to everyone, not only the military. Note that he didn't say that Gallileo necessarily was more accurate, but that it was as accurate to anyone wanting that precision.

However, he continued, most people seem satisfied with the current accuracy of GPS, now when SA is off. So perhaps Gallileo isn't what we really need.

 

Now, it should be added, that Håkan Lans is the same person, that has invented a transponder, where he hopes that the civil aircraft authorities will make that transponder mandatory on airline flights in a few years. That transponder is based on (can you guess?) GPS. Go figure. icon_wink.gif

 

Anders

 

[This message was edited by Anders on May 09, 2002 at 11:40 AM.]

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Actually, I derived my information from a statement, made by Håkan Lans, in that magazine, Ny Teknik. But since I shortened it, it came out of its context somewhat. So here we go:

 

He said that Gallileo will give a higher accuracy to everyone, not only the military. Note that he didn't say that Gallileo necessarily was more accurate, but that it was as accurate to anyone wanting that precision.

However, he continued, most people seem satisfied with the current accuracy of GPS, now when SA is off. So perhaps Gallileo isn't what we really need.

 

Now, it should be added, that Håkan Lans is the same person, that has invented a transponder, where he hopes that the civil aircraft authorities will make that transponder mandatory on airline flights in a few years. That transponder is based on (can you guess?) GPS. Go figure. icon_wink.gif

 

Anders

 

[This message was edited by Anders on May 09, 2002 at 11:40 AM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by MissJenn:

So, what does Washington have up its butt that they "strongly opposed it"?

 

-----

_Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious._


 

I suppose that the objection is largely to maintain a military advantage. As long as the overwhelming majority of commercially available GPRr equipment is based on one system - a system that the US can selectively shut down or scramble, the US military has technological targetting and navigational advantage.

 

I'm not saying I agree or disagree, I'm just guessing at a reason.

 

-jjf

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At the current Barcelona meeting the European heads of Government decision regarding Galileo:

 

"In the field of transport, the European Council welcomes the progress on

GALILEO and asks the Council (Transport) at its meeting in March to take the

necessary decisions regarding both the funding and launching of this programme

and the setting-up of the Joint Undertaking, in cooperation with the European

Space Agency"

 

It sounds like the "necessary decisions" are to be yes.

 

Cheers, Kerry.

 

I never get lost icon_smile.gif everybody keeps telling me where to go icon_wink.gif

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At the current Barcelona meeting the European heads of Government decision regarding Galileo:

 

"In the field of transport, the European Council welcomes the progress on

GALILEO and asks the Council (Transport) at its meeting in March to take the

necessary decisions regarding both the funding and launching of this programme

and the setting-up of the Joint Undertaking, in cooperation with the European

Space Agency"

 

It sounds like the "necessary decisions" are to be yes.

 

Cheers, Kerry.

 

I never get lost icon_smile.gif everybody keeps telling me where to go icon_wink.gif

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Let them build it. A little competition is a good thing.

 

I certainly hope that they aren't planning on charging money for it. Good luck. The current FREE GPS system is good enough for almost anything except surveying. If they build it and hope to have people pay for it, they are going to be disappointed. I certainly wouldn't pay to be able to double my accuracy.

 

HOWEVER....

 

There is one thing that I would pay for. If they offered a service where they piggybacked map data on the signal, that would be useful. Imagine driving and having a detailed map wherever you go in the world. The sattelites could transmit complete map data once or twice a day. A receiver would only have to fill up its RAM with the map data as it is received. In addition, every sattelite could broadcast the map for the region directly under it. The receiver would just get map data from the sattelite directly overhead. If there were enough bandwidth, then a local phone book could even be broadcast. Imagine just typing in a name and getting turn-by-turn directions. This would be worth paying for.

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Charge icon_eek.gif, yes, that's probably going to be inevitable icon_frown.gif

 

GPS is one of the biggest changes & assets to surveying since dot. Surveying accuracy & capability is quite staggering, besides it was surveyors icon_smile.gif who developed the work around to sqeeze millimetres (even less) from a system capable of 100m.

 

The mapping stuff could probably be a reality now except the satellite system itself would never handle the extra bandwidth but certainly dedicated geo sats on the side. You'll be surprised the amount of mapping info they can now fit on one CD.

 

Actually in Germany (I think or over that way somewhere) the in-car navigation systems link to the local weather forecast and traffic control system which makes for intelligent route decision making.

 

It's a turn by turn description with pre-warning and lane changing requirements etc etc with the voice selectable from 12 languages (male or female).

 

Been the odd miss-adventure but like the BMW driver who drove off what the system thought ("in 400 metres turn left") was a bridge. Was actually a ferry ramp and of course the ferry wasn't home and BMW's don't float icon_biggrin.gif

 

Cheers, Kerry.

 

I never get lost icon_smile.gif everybody keeps telling me where to go icon_wink.gif

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Charge icon_eek.gif, yes, that's probably going to be inevitable icon_frown.gif

 

GPS is one of the biggest changes & assets to surveying since dot. Surveying accuracy & capability is quite staggering, besides it was surveyors icon_smile.gif who developed the work around to sqeeze millimetres (even less) from a system capable of 100m.

 

The mapping stuff could probably be a reality now except the satellite system itself would never handle the extra bandwidth but certainly dedicated geo sats on the side. You'll be surprised the amount of mapping info they can now fit on one CD.

 

Actually in Germany (I think or over that way somewhere) the in-car navigation systems link to the local weather forecast and traffic control system which makes for intelligent route decision making.

 

It's a turn by turn description with pre-warning and lane changing requirements etc etc with the voice selectable from 12 languages (male or female).

 

Been the odd miss-adventure but like the BMW driver who drove off what the system thought ("in 400 metres turn left") was a bridge. Was actually a ferry ramp and of course the ferry wasn't home and BMW's don't float icon_biggrin.gif

 

Cheers, Kerry.

 

I never get lost icon_smile.gif everybody keeps telling me where to go icon_wink.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by Kerry:

Actually in Germany (I think or over that way somewhere) the in-car navigation systems link to the local weather forecast and traffic control system which makes for intelligent route decision making.


 

Sounds like a description of the RTI (Road and Traffic Information) system, developed mainly by Volvo in Sweden. It's a GPS navigation system, linked to the RDS (Radio Data System), to provide it with updates of road blocks, accidents etc. Can also be combined with Volvo-on-Call, where you can press an emergency button in your car. When you do, your position is automatically transmitted via GSM phone to an emergency response center, so you can get help as quickly as possible.

 

Anders

 

[This message was edited by Anders on May 09, 2002 at 11:41 AM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by jfitzpat:

 

I suppose that the objection is largely to maintain a military advantage. ......I'm not saying I agree or disagree, I'm just guessing at a reason.


That is a good guess.

 

*sigh* .... "What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?"

 

-----

dartfrogsmall.jpg Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious.

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Let's cut throught it.....

The EU is basically run by the French. How the EU will hold together being run by the French, I don't know. I can't imagine the Germans giving up their nationhood over the French, but I digress.

 

The French have an inferiority complex and the EU is going to try and compete with the US on EVERYTHING. That is the point of the EU. They want to be the moeny standard and they want to be the superpower, they want to leave the US in the dust whenever and wherever they can. Thats fine with me because there isnothing like competition.

If they want to throw up a GPS like system, go ahead, but how many people do you think will really pay for a system that they can get for free, espically when they figure out that they have already paid for the system once.

I wish the EU all the best but I for one sure wouldn't want to have to consult with Mexico or Canada everytime we want to lower taxes or pass legislation. The EU is an enormous beauracracy like the United Nations, and will probably prove to be just as ineffective. icon_mad.gif

 

46113_400.jpg

The KGB

guy.gif

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Let's cut throught it.....

The EU is basically run by the French. How the EU will hold together being run by the French, I don't know. I can't imagine the Germans giving up their nationhood over the French, but I digress.

 

The French have an inferiority complex and the EU is going to try and compete with the US on EVERYTHING. That is the point of the EU. They want to be the moeny standard and they want to be the superpower, they want to leave the US in the dust whenever and wherever they can. Thats fine with me because there isnothing like competition.

If they want to throw up a GPS like system, go ahead, but how many people do you think will really pay for a system that they can get for free, espically when they figure out that they have already paid for the system once.

I wish the EU all the best but I for one sure wouldn't want to have to consult with Mexico or Canada everytime we want to lower taxes or pass legislation. The EU is an enormous beauracracy like the United Nations, and will probably prove to be just as ineffective. icon_mad.gif

 

46113_400.jpg

The KGB

guy.gif

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Dear KGB,

 

You must know very little about Europe to pretend that France rules it, and that French people have an inferiority complex; they have a SUPERIORITY complex! Germany has at least as much power as France in Europe (European Central Bank, ...)

 

Anyone who knows the basics of Europe realizes that "Europe is the power of small countries on the biggest ones". Just have a look at who were the actors in Galileo's decision.

 

Besides, it is time for America to realize they don't have the monopoly to act worldwide. Europe doesn't want to threat anybody, but needs to gain independance in all critical matters, global positionning being one of them.

 

Galileo will be free for end-users like you and I but fabricants will have to pay for the technology.

 

Happy geocaching to you all,

 

Pick icon_smile.gif

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Dear KGB,

 

You must know very little about Europe to pretend that France rules it, and that French people have an inferiority complex; they have a SUPERIORITY complex! Germany has at least as much power as France in Europe (European Central Bank, ...)

 

Anyone who knows the basics of Europe realizes that "Europe is the power of small countries on the biggest ones". Just have a look at who were the actors in Galileo's decision.

 

Besides, it is time for America to realize they don't have the monopoly to act worldwide. Europe doesn't want to threat anybody, but needs to gain independance in all critical matters, global positionning being one of them.

 

Galileo will be free for end-users like you and I but fabricants will have to pay for the technology.

 

Happy geocaching to you all,

 

Pick icon_smile.gif

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i am rofl lmao @ weblings post about members only sattelites! holey ****e! your serious icon_wink.gif

 

I am all about VIP membership to elite satalites !

I heard their signal contains way better stuff to! and you get a special name tag to where in certain areas!

 

<-T 3 a |/| B a || d i T 0->

S [] U T |-| 3 U < |_ i D [] |-| | []

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i am rofl lmao @ weblings post about members only sattelites! holey ****e! your serious icon_wink.gif

 

I am all about VIP membership to elite satalites !

I heard their signal contains way better stuff to! and you get a special name tag to where in certain areas!

 

<-T 3 a |/| B a || d i T 0->

S [] U T |-| 3 U < |_ i D [] |-| | []

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