Permission Takes Time

24.7k · November 4, 2003

A long, long, time ago in forum years I did a post on a couple of caches. One of the criticisms of the cache I wanted unarchived was that getting permission took so long that the cache owner must have been sitting on his butt doing nothing.

I thought I would illustrate the permission process for the unbelievers.

First you get a cache idea. You realize the perfect location will require permission and that it may be about 467’ from another cache. So you email your friendly neighborhood approver to ask the question about the perfect location vs. the 528’ guideline. No answer so you email again. No answer. Great. So far so good. Now you don’t know if the cache can be approved but you still need permission from the landowner. Time to charge ahead anyway. No comment means they agree right? Having no other answer you run with it.

Next I walk into the landowners building and explain geocaching to them. They are clueless and the explanations just fall on uncomprehending ears. In a flash of inspiration I realize they are volunteers and that they have a boss. They give me the information on how to contact their bosses.

A call is made to Boss number 1. No answer, leave a message. Two weeks pass and it’s time to try again. Same thing, no answer, leave a message. A couple of more weeks pass and it’s time to try boss number two.

A call is made to Boss 2 and there is no answer so you leave a message. Wait a week and call again. There is no answer so you leave your last message and wash your hands of the entire project. It’s not happening.

Two weeks pass and I get a call. Boss 2 was on vacation, they proceeded to grill me for half an hour on goecaching. “Can you guarantee that there will never be any drugs placed in the cache?” “No”. “Can you guarantee that bikers in leather won’t seek the cache” “No”. “Can you guarantee me that there will never be any money in the cache?” “No.” Can you guarantee me anything at all?” “Only that people who are generally nice will come and look for the cache, and that you can take any money or drugs out of the cache any time you want because you will know where it’s at and can check on it any time.” “Oh…” she says. The conversation isn’t going well. Then finally I say “Look it would be so much easier to just show you, why don’t we meet at lunch and you can go on a hunt and you will know exactly what I’m talking about and can then judge for yourself”. She thinks I’m wacko but says yes. She later admits she agreed to go mostly because I was bluntly honest about not being able to guarantee anything about the cache. Go figure.

A couple of weeks pass and finally our schedules match up and we go. She has a great time, and thinks it’s a blast. She had met someone else over the two weeks it took to coordinate, who had heard of goecaching. She talked to them and learned a little more and found an article on it which she copied and gave to me. After all that she decided that I wasn’t a wacko. She likes the idea now and wants to see it happen. But she works for Boss number 1 and has to sell her on the idea, then if that succeeds has to sell the board on the entire idea. The board in turn needs to mull on it and so on and so forth.

Eight weeks have come and gone since then. I’m not worried. Part of my job is convincing boards and councils that projects have merit. This just takes time. Her card turned up on my desk. So I called and left a message. She wasn’t in.

Over three months have passed and by the time I get permission another three will come and go. During those six plus months I’m not going to sweat it if someone places a cache within that 528’. There is no reason why they should not place a cache just because I’m working on permission. While I think permission will ultimately be given there is no guarantee. However you can bet I will raise one heck of a ruckus if my cache is denied or archived after all that work just because someone “aced” me to that 528’ radius circle of the planet.

1.3k · November 4, 2003

I've never considered putting a cache on privately owned property of someone I didn't know. I had made a few phone calls to a local National Park to see if they would let me place a logbook in the visitor's center. The person I spoke to was very interested in the concept of caching. They had never heard of it before, but after I explained it they told me that they were looking for ways to get people out to visit the park, and a cache there might help to do so. Further, they were not even aware of the NPS policy against physical caches. (How could they be if they had never heard of caching?) The only reason I even bothered to call is that I wanted permission to put a logbook in their visitor's center. I didn't want to go through the hassle of getting a virt approved.

Unfortunately, the person I spoke to said he would have to run the idea by his superiors, and he would need a copy of the finished cache page to do so. There is no way I was going to go through the trouble of creating the whole multistage cache, only to have it denied by either the park, or GC. So, cachets miss out on a great location. They'll just have to find out about the park some other way. Even if I was lucky enough to get a virtual approved and use the park's own guest register as confirmation, it would not be the same, and I'd rather the park personnel knew about the cache anyway. Hopefully someone with more free time during the week can work something out with the people in charge there.

Incidentally, the reason I was not able to speak directly with the guy's superiors was that they were on vacation. Coincidence, or conspiracy?

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

38.2k · November 4, 2003

Let that be a lesson to you.

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

1.3k · November 4, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:
Let that be a lesson to you.

_"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm_

LMAO!

I think I might subscribe to you ideas about policy. If you wouldn't ask permission to play frisbee, then don't bother with permission for caches.

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

6.5k · November 5, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Bloencustoms:

quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:
Let that be a lesson to you.

LMAO!
I think I might subscribe to you ideas about policy. If you wouldn't ask permission to play frisbee, then don't bother with permission for caches.

If someone finds a frisbee lost woods they'll likely either take it home, or throw it out. However, doing the same to a cache would be wrong...

Not a perfect parallel is it?

-------------------------------

"You see, if a group is going to represent people, it needs to be in touch with those people." -Frolickin

November 5, 2003

All I know is if I am out looking for a cache, I don't want to be on land where the owner either doesn't know or hasn't given permission for the cache to be there. I would think a no reply is just as good as a no.

November 5, 2003

I happen to be experiencing this same thing right now. I've been working with the local park authority for over a month to get approval to place a cache on park property. I learned today that a cache has been placed in this same park without park approval. By the waypoints, it is obvious that it sits on park property yet it got approved by gc.com. Not sure what I should do but if the park authority finds it they will dispose of it and probably reject my request to place a cache.

"Yesterday has been and gone. Tomorrow will I find the sun or will it rain?" -Ozzy

November 5, 2003

You guys are really making me enjoy south Florida -- even more than I do already. The local approver down here (Crow T Robot) is excellent -- fast, reasonable, and helpful. Helped me do a major edit on text in a cache that had to be moved last week, and agreed with my point of view that it was a mystery cache even after he had switched it to a multi-stage. As for our local state park, also fortunate. I have placed two caches, and in both cases all it took was a phone call and approval was granted.

1.7k · November 5, 2003

It has taken a little while, but tomorrow morning I meet with the high muckety-mucks at Kansas City Parks and Rec to get approval and to introduce the idea to them.

Hopefully, it will pave the way to getting quick approval of caches in KC parks.

I think once the initial contact and approval is gained from an agenciy, it makes it easier for the next person.

DustyJacket

Not all those that wander are lost. But in my case...

2.3k · November 7, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by hikemeister:
You guys are really making me enjoy south Florida -- even more than I do already. The local approver down here (Crow T Robot) is excellent -- fast, reasonable, and helpful. Helped me do a major edit on text in a cache that had to be moved last week, and agreed with my point of view that it was a mystery cache even after he had switched it to a multi-stage. As for our local state park, also fortunate. I have placed two caches, and in both cases all it took was a phone call and approval was granted.

Crow T Robot is an approver? He posted a note on one of my disabled caches, and I checked his profile. No finds, no forum posts, etc. I thought he was a sockpuppet stirring up stuff.

BTW, permission isn't all it's cracked up to be sometimes. I was asked by one park to move a cache to a "less sensitive area" by a park volunteer. Now I have to place the cache, then get the volunteer's approval before I can release the coords to the site. I place where he suggests, he checks, then tells me "well, that may not be good after all." I've moved the cache THREE times already, with weeks between "suggestions." I don't think he'll be happy unless it's hanging from a string above the trail, touching nothing.

I'm almost ready to suggest he "hide" it somewhere very specific...

Joel (joefrog)

"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for ye are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!"

November 7, 2003

I seriously can't figure out why it is such a big deal for a cache to be placed on public property. I personally don't ask permission on public property. The one I placed in my local State Park was placed by using the "frisbee" rule which I really like. I can't understand why a park official would not want a cache on park grounds. I hear so much about disturbing nature, ecosystems, blah blah blah. How is a small ammo box or tupperware that can barely be seen with the naked eye gonna cause any problems. And if they are so concerned with leaving nature untouched, why did you build that lodge? Why did you build the golf course? How about the campground? All of these "attractions" are to entice the public to use and enjoy the land that has been set aside for that purpose.

My entire theory of why a land manager wouldn't allow a cache is this, he/she is in a position of authority and can't handle the responsibility. Bottom line is caches don't hurt the environment or the scenery. And if there are any negatives to a cache being placed, they are far outweighed by the positives.

Wartide

1.7k · November 7, 2003

Unfortunately, it doesn't really matter how we think of it.

What matters is how the land managers think of caching. All the publicity that we seem to be seeking is forcing GeoCaching to evolve from an un-noticed, "under the radar" activity to a much more visable activity.

Land Managers know how to get onto geocaching.com and check for caches in their area. They tend to get upset when they find caches already on their lands without permission.

I think that permission requirements are going to stay for quite a long time. We can either work with land managers to define and streamline the processes and policies, or start an adverse relationship trying to get around them. If that happens, life could get rough for cachers.

Land managers in most cases have the law on their side. They don't have to win a littering case, or trespassing case. All they have to do is cause you to take time off from work to attend court, and pay for a lawyer, and they have won.

I say, lets work with them instead of against them.

This is my opinion.

DustyJacket

Not all those that wander are lost. But in my case...

November 8, 2003

Well, I finally got permission to place the cache on park property. They had never heard of geocaching so I got to tell the story. We picked out an area that they were not too concerned about as far as trampling goes. They have actually been pretty responsive and understanding, considering this is an out-of-the-ordinary request for them.

Now I have to get GC.com permission...

BTW, what do I do about the cache that was placed in the same park but did not get park permission? Turn it in or leave it be?

"Yesterday has been and gone. Tomorrow will I find the sun or will it rain?" -Ozzy

2.1k · November 9, 2003

Damned if you, damned if you don't!

I think that it could be looked at several different ways. The "would you ask to play frisbee", as well as would you "ask to leave something hidden there". Just because it's not posted, does not mean you can do it either. I think the permission effect has good merit, although there would be many caches that would not be placed if permission had to be granted or was actually seeked. I have 2 caches. Both are in parks withing a city. I emailed the park director there and in another adjoining city. I got responses back from the both of them. The one in which I placed my caches granted me permission and knew what geocaching was. The other said I could come to a meeting they were having a while later and introduce it. I had planned on it, but I actually forgot about it and it passed by. I really don't need to place caches in their parks there as there are plenty of places in this other one(which I have permission) to hide them. I suggest more clarification on what needs to be gotten permission on. Some say if there is a person who manages the land, then get permission. Well I think there is someone that manages about every inch of US soil. If you ask Geocaching.com, what do they say about the issue? At least their view as far as listing a cache on their site. I'm under the impression, and it may be wrong, that they state to get permission before doing so to stay on the good side of land managers.

Like I said, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Brian

www.woodsters.com

"TOUGH NUTS" - for those who don't like it...

[This message was edited by Woodsters Outdoors on November 09, 2003 at 06:12 AM.]

38.2k · November 9, 2003

quote:
BTW, what do I do about the cache that was placed in the same park but did not get park permission? Turn it in or leave it be?

That all depends on whether or not you want to make enemies of local geocachers.

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

3.8k · November 9, 2003

Anything worthwhile is worth waiting for.

This applies to posting in the forums, too!

==============="If it feels good...do it"================

**(the other 9 out of 10 voices in my head say: "Don't do it.")**

.

November 9, 2003

quote:
That all depends on whether or not you want to make enemies of local geocachers.

Nope, I don't however, it took me a month to get approval to place my cache there and my concern is that the agency may revoke it if they find out that people are placing caches there without permission or that I knew about this 'rogue' (for lack of a better term) cache, and did nothing about it. (I guess that's not totally true, I did log it as a find! doh!)

I've emailed GC.com and the cache owner but no response to date.

"Yesterday has been and gone. Tomorrow will I find the sun or will it rain?" -Ozzy

38.2k · November 9, 2003

quote:
Nope, I don't however, it took me a month to get approval to place my cache there and my concern is that the agency may revoke it if they find out that people are placing caches there without permission or that I knew about this 'rogue' (for lack of a better term) cache, and did nothing about it. (I guess that's not totally true, I did log it as a find! doh!)

I've emailed GC.com and the cache owner but no response to date.

Well if the park has an established policy that requires permission for geocaches and the cache is in violation of that policy, then by all means turn the guy in.

If, on the other hand, you're little more than a busybody and self appointed "cache cop", then don't expect to find many friends at the next local geocaching picnic.

[This message was edited by BrianSnat on November 09, 2003 at 03:47 PM.]

November 9, 2003

I'm going to support the "frisbee philosophy" here.

If an area has a caching policy, great. I'm happy to follow the rules. If it doesn't and has open public access, I don't see any need to open a can of worms by asking permission.

Why? Because it is the job of administrators and managers to say "no" whenever they're confronted with something new, unknown, or different.

My motto is "easier to ask forgiveness than permission" and it's served me well for a long time.

Now, all that said, my primary concern is not the cache, or myself as cache owner but of the cache seeker. Am I endangering this person by having them seek a cache at any particular location? Are they trespassing? Will they look overly suspicious and thus be subject to landowner/police oversight?

It is my responsibility to take into account the surrounding land management rules that may apply to cache visitors. They are my "guests"

One thing I'll never understand is the inability of cachers to be discrete in seeking a cache EVEN WHEN the cache description clearly states that it has been placed surreptitiously.

On the one hand, this is a nod towards asking permission (then people wouldn't have to be so stealthy). On the other, it means that, in many instances, instead of a short lived cache, we'd have no cache at all.

Thoughts?

November 9, 2003

quote:
Well if the park has an established policy that requires permission for geocaches and the cache is in violation fo that policy, then by all means turn the guy in.

I doubt there is an established policy since that I had to explain to the park manager what geocaching is. When I petitioned the county I explained that GC.com had an established policy of cache hiders getting permission prior to GCs approval and posting. I guess I was wrong. (Not meant to be a knock on the approvers. I'm sure it's tough, if not impossible, to ensure that permission has been granted.)

About being discrete, I find that it is much more difficult with the leaves down on the ground instead of in the trees. I must look very suspicious trying to be so discrete. I imagine there are others who take the crash 'n burn approach, particularly since it is not their cache and they don't intend to ever return. With the leaves down, I bet more caches will be muggled/plundered/confiscated.

I'd vote for fewer short-lived caches if it increased the longevity of the sport.

"Yesterday has been and gone. Tomorrow will I find the sun or will it rain?" -Ozzy

38.2k · November 9, 2003

quote:
I'm going to support the "frisbee philosophy" here.

If an area has a caching policy, great. I'm happy to follow the rules. If it doesn't and has open public access, I don't see any need to open a can of worms by asking permission.

Why? Because it is the job of administrators and managers to say "no" whenever they're confronted with something new, unknown, or different.

My Liberterian roots come in here. If there is no rule prohibiting an activity, then why should you ask? Do hunters ask permission to place a tree stand? We are not children and the government is not our parent. If there is a rule re geocaching then follow it. Outside that, I don't see why we should plead to our governmental agencies to allow a sport that they've not banned.

"The rainbow is more beautiful than the pot at the end of it, because the rainbow is now and the pot never turns out to be quite what I expected." - Hugh Prather

38.2k · November 9, 2003

quote:
I'm going to support the "frisbee philosophy" here.

If an area has a caching policy, great. I'm happy to follow the rules. If it doesn't and has open public access, I don't see any need to open a can of worms by asking permission.

Why? Because it is the job of administrators and managers to say "no" whenever they're confronted with something new, unknown, or different.

My Liberterian roots come in here. If there is no rule prohibiting an activity, then why should you ask? Do hunters ask permission to place a tree stand? Do pet owners ask permission to walk their dog? We aren't children and the government isn't our parent. Mommy, may have a cookie? Uncle Sam, may I hide some Tupperware in "your" park?

If there is a law regarding geocaching, then follow it. Outside that, I don't see why we should beg governmental agencies for permission to allow a sport that they never banned in the first place.

"The rainbow is more beautiful than the pot at the end of it, because the rainbow is now and the pot never turns out to be quite what I expected." - Hugh Prather

[This message was edited by BrianSnat on November 09, 2003 at 07:40 PM.]

2.1k · November 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:
Do hunters ask permission to place a tree stand?

Depends on where they are hunting. Is the tree stand affixed permenantly to a tree or is it one of the types that comes back down with you when your done that day? Hunting has been around forever and place normally have laws and rules already in effect for it. Either it's not allowed or there are certain rules if it is allowed on public accesible land. Some [place may let you go with a permanently placed stand while other areas and people who manage/police the land do not. Normally a person who goes out and places a tree stand permanently will not put their name on it and can not claim ownership to it. Nor will they be responsible for it unless they are caught doing so or attention is brought forward to the person managing the land about it.

quote:
Do pet owners ask permission to bring their dog?

That depends too. Some places don;t allow them. Some do. For instance. I go to a cache and luckily I don't bring my dogs or my bike as when I get there, it is posted that no dogs and bike riding allowed. It's a dirt road wide and big enough for a semi. It's obvious that someone drives down there. I never knew this until going there. I posted in my comments about it on the cache page. But many parks and public properties do not allow pets.

Brian

www.woodsters.com

"TOUGH NUTS" - for those who don't like it...

3.5k · November 9, 2003

When I first started caching in February of 2002 I had one park in mind to place a cache. I forced myself to wait, though until I had found a few caches before even beginning the process.

It was May before I finally got to ask permission and was flatly turned down. It seems that a geocache had been placed without permission and was accidentally found in the middle of September, 2001. The park manager wanted nothing to do with geocaching.

Over the course of the last year or so I've seen him around a few more times and occasionally brought geocaching up. Finally this past week I received permission to hide a cache there! It seems that now that Illinois DNR has geocaching policy set in place he's satisfied that we're all for real and not just a bunch of weirdos running around his woods. He's also asked me to come in next spring to do a class on geocaching. Should be fun.

A year and a half of waiting. Hopefully it's been worth it.

Bret

"The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field.

When a man found it, he hid it again." Mt. 13:44

CYBret's Geocaching Page

1.7k · November 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:
......If there is no rule prohibiting an activity, then why should you ask?.....

Unfortunately, many areas have different laws on the books, with different definitions for littering and trespassing. Some of these laws can be construed to make placing a cache illegal in those areas.

I would rather avoid problems like that, because going to court and winning or losing is expensive.

Just look at the threads about what to tell the police or other authorities when they contact you while caching. There obviously is an "issue" there.

I don't mind not telling a geo-muggle what I am doing, but I like to keep it honest with folks that can legally ruin my day/weekend/life......

Just my opinion. I don't expect people to agree.

DustyJacket

Not all those that wander are lost. But in my case...

Permission Takes Time

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Join the conversation