Pantalaimon Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 This cache has been plundered by a pirate, and the owner has stated that he is going to retrieve and archive the remainder of his caches (which numbers in the 30's I think) in response. Personally, I think that's a bit of an overreaction to a developing problem. Certainly everyone doesn't agree with the pirates' intentions (whatever they may be), but isn't archival of all the players remaining caches playing right into the pirates hand. I know this issue can be resolved. Maybe not to everyone's complete satisfaction, but maybe to a marginally amicable truce. I would ask for further consideration of such a plan. Thoughts? Pan Here there be tigers. - My response when asked by a fellow Geocacher to describe the attitude of the forums. Quote Link to comment
+Team Og Rof A Klaw Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Geez. BrianSnat does some of the better caches in the area. It's his choice, but I'd hate to lose 'em all after doing only one or two. Another way to handle this would be to post coords to the parking lot, and for the owner to hand out coords only on request. ____________________________ - Team Og Rof A Klaw All who wander are not lost. Quote Link to comment
Pantalaimon Posted September 19, 2003 Author Share Posted September 19, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Team Og Rof A Klaw:Geez. BrianSnat does some of the better caches in the area. It's his choice, but I'd hate to lose 'em all after doing only one or two. I think he needs to hear more of that before he makes a 'final' decision. quote:Another way to handle this would be to post coords to the parking lot, and for the owner to hand out coords only on request. Interesting thought. I wonder if admins would approve such a cache. Pan Here there be tigers. - My response when asked by a fellow Geocacher to describe the attitude of the forums. Quote Link to comment
+sept1c_tank Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Why not just temporarily disable them? I'm not sure how easy it is to unarchive a cache. Of course, I'm assuming that you're not quitting. You're not are you? ==============="If it feels good...do it"================ **(the other 9 out of 10 voices in my head say: "Don't do it.")** . Quote Link to comment
+FerretFinder Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 at least they don't trash it. It looks like the pirates rehide the cache contents after awhile. In fact looking at their site it looks like they encourage leaving something for the kiddies so they dont' cry. I hope they are honest about it and it's just another part of the game for other people I guess. It could be interesting if someone worked with them when the cache was pirated. It could make an intersting story. I'm not saying any of the pirates antics are a good idea but it's better than someone stealing the cache altogether. I think they do need to leave information on how to find your cache contents if they are going to take it though so someone can go find it. Just my thought. Quote Link to comment
umc Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 you can still view the cache page when its temporarily disabled the same is true for archived caches so the pulling the cache would be the way to prevent someone (pirate) from taking your cache. Seems they steal identities too now. __________________________ Caching with a clue.... Quote Link to comment
+Metaphor Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Think about it guys... it's BrianSnat. HeheHe... "All of us are standing in the mud, but some of us are looking at the stars." Oscar Wilde Quote Link to comment
Jomarac5 Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 BrianSnat, I'd be interested in hearing about how the cache was plundered. Can you fill us in on the details? ***** Quote Link to comment
+Finders_Jeepers Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Personally, I don't see the big deal with these pirates. They take the loot, leave a note and map, rehide the loot in a good container.. Seems like a surprise multi.. Also neat that they 'kidnap' TB's, and put them in a prison where they can be rescued.. I don't see any problem with this really.. what am I missing? -Ken Quote Link to comment
+Bill D (wwh) Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 No offence, Jeepers_Keepers, but if you had a few caches of your own out there I think you might see it differently. I haven't placed many caches, but the ones I have I've put a lot of time and thought into. And judging from the logs people enjoy finding them. When someone goes out there to find one, I want them to find it the way I set it, not find a note from some pathetic self-styled pirate. Bill ------------------------------- "Ah, take the Cache and let the Credit go..." The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam, trans. Edward Fitzgerald Quote Link to comment
+clearpath Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 One way to possibly take the fun out of pirate caching would be to give GC cache owners 'credit' for caches that have been pirated. We could include a category that counted pirated caches and 'imprisoned' TBs. When the pirates find out they are actually helping us achieve a number (possibly even 'status') then it might take some of the wind out of their sail. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment
bug and snake Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Bill D (wwh):I haven't placed many caches, but the ones I have I've put a lot of time and thought into. And judging from the logs people enjoy finding them. When someone goes out there to find one, I want them to find it the way I set it, not find a note from some pathetic self-styled pirate. Well stated. I can't see any way to justify the actions of these people. When someone goes out to find a cache it seems reasonable that they will find what is described on the cache page by the placer of that cache, not a re-design by someone who thinks they can improve on all the work done by the cache originator. Only nuts eat squirrels, Snake Quote Link to comment
+carleenp Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 I think a good response to the plundered caches would be no response. Simply disable the cache with a note saying that there is a problem with the cache and never mention the pirates. Quote Link to comment
+El Diablo Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 quote:Originally posted by sept1c_tank:Why not just temporarily disable them? I'm not sure how easy it is to _unarchive_ a cache. Of course, I'm assuming that you're _not quitting._ You're not are you? http://www.indianageocaching.comhttp://ubbx.Groundspeak.com/6/ws/emoticons/signal/bad_boy_a.gif http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/puke.gif ===============_"If it feels good...do it"_================ **_(the other 9 out of 10 voices in my head say: "Don't do it.")_** . The only way to unarchive them is to contact the Admins. El Diablo Everything you do in life...will impact someone,for better or for worse. http://www.geo-hikingstick.com Quote Link to comment
Trogdor! Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Jeepers_Keepers:Personally, I don't see the big deal with these pirates. They take the loot, leave a note and map, rehide the loot in a good container.. Seems like a surprise multi.. Also neat that they 'kidnap' TB's, and put them in a prison where they can be rescued.. I don't see any problem with this really.. what am I missing? -Ken You know, I'm starting to agree with this opinion. IF the geotrash/mactoys/treasure does turn up in a new cache nearby what's the problem? It's almost forcing cache owners to maintain their caches. I beginning to think that this plunder and re-hide, adds a new level to the game. Maybe Trogdor!!!! The Burninator should join the pirates on the darkside! When in trouble, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout! Quote Link to comment
umc Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Trogdor!:You know, I'm starting to agree with this opinion. IF the geotrash/mactoys/treasure does turn up in a new cache nearby what's the problem? It's almost forcing cache owners to maintain their caches. I beginning to think that this plunder and re-hide, adds a new level to the game. Maybe Trogdor!!!! The Burninator should join the pirates on the darkside! The problem is that I then have to work twice as hard to keep up my cache because of some arses. I maintain my caches very now as it is so if someone thinks its funny to take my goods and move them thats BS. What IF they just decided to take the whole cache? Thats not ok right? well in my opinion neither is what they are doing. As far as adding a new level to the game then they should have consent from the cache owner first. That is not the game I sign up for when I hide my caches. If I had to chase about a bunch of jerks that want to mess with my caches then I would pull them too because I don't need that BS hassle. I'm sure this is the exact response that the joksters want to see so there ya have it. [edit] Furthermore, I put way too much time and money into my caches for the 'real' cachers to enjoy them not for some band of "pirates" to destroy them. __________________________ Caching with a clue.... Quote Link to comment
Trogdor! Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 quote:Originally posted by umc: The problem is that I then have to work twice as hard to keep up my cache because of some arses. I maintain my caches very now as it is so if someone thinks its funny to take my goods and move them thats BS. What _IF_ they just decided to take the whole cache? Thats not ok right? well in my opinion neither is what they are doing. As far as adding a new level to the game then they should have consent from the cache owner first. That is not the game I sign up for when I hide my caches. If I had to chase about a bunch of jerks that want to mess with my caches then I would pull them too because I don't need that BS hassle. I'm sure this is the exact response that the joksters want to see so there ya have it. [edit] Furthermore, I put way too much time and money into my caches for the 'real' cachers to enjoy them not for some band of "pirates" to destroy them. http://www.mi-geocaching.org/ __________________________ Caching with a clue.... Wow! That’s a lot of whining about what ifs! Besides, twice as hard with only 3 active caches couldn’t be that demanding! Not all Pirates nor Dragons might plunder in the same ways. Plundering a cache could be done in a non-destructive way. Criminey, keep an open mind and lighten up, it’s a game! When in trouble, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout! Quote Link to comment
mckee Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 quote:Originally posted by clearpath:One way to possibly take the fun out of pirate caching would be to give GC cache owners 'credit' for caches that have been pirated. We could include a category that counted pirated caches and 'imprisoned' TBs. When the pirates find out they are actually helping us achieve a number (possibly even 'status') then it might take some of the wind out of their sail. Just a thought. That might achieve the opposite, as they could then declare they are "helping you out." The incidents may actually rise. -------------------- Searching for the lost, Geocache....... Quote Link to comment
+Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Here's a thought. Why don't we all become cache pirates and clandestinely plunder our own caches, clog up their website and maybe they'll leave us alone. Or do they plunder the same cache twice? Till a voice, as bad as Conscience, rang interminable changes On one everlasting Whisper day and night repeated -- so: "Something hidden. Go and find it. Go and look behind the Ranges -- "Something lost behind the Ranges. Lost and waiting for you. Go!" Rudyard Kipling , The Explorer 1898 Quote Link to comment
+TotemLake Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Team Og Rof A Klaw:Geez. BrianSnat does some of the better caches in the area. It's his choice, but I'd hate to lose 'em all after doing only one or two. Another way to handle this would be to post coords to the parking lot, and for the owner to hand out coords only on request. ____________________________ - Team Og Rof A Klaw _All who wander are not lost._ Gaak! Can you imagine the headache that entails? Particularly if the "owner" didn't respond fast enough for the hunter!?! I mean, look at the complaints here in these forums about how slow some of the approvals can be and multiply that by x caches. Cheers! TL Quote Link to comment
+Xitron Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 If the cache is plundered and/or moved miles away I can see why someone would have a problem with it. The new pirate seems to improve the cache and also add another cache container for the finder to keep and create his own cache. That I think will increase our caching experience because for every cache plundered,(and then placed back with all loot and something extra), we would get a new cache placed by the finder of the plundered cache. Do you see it this way or am I way off the mark? Quote Link to comment
+briansnat Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Geocaching has been a lot of fun and one of my favorite parts was placing caches for people to find. I put a little thought and some money into my caches and the contents and I place them for geocachers to find. I also make the effort to maintain them, which isn't easy with all the caches I have out there. I'll be damned if I have to go chasing the contents, because some jerk who never made it out of the 8th grade mentally, wants to play some other game. They can play their game, but they aren't using my ball. "You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm Quote Link to comment
+Xitron Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 BrianSnat, I Applaud you for all the caches you have placed and all the effort you went through to do it. I agree with you on one hand, if someone plunders your cache and takes it or even moves it 100 miles away he is an a$$. If however the pirate just takes the loot moves it 100 feet and places the coords in the cache for the next finder then I don't see the problem. First off you will not have to go out and replace the cache contents the next finder will do that for you. Second the finder gets an extra bonus prize for finding and returning the cache's orginal loot. Third the finder gets a cache container to then place a new cache that you and I can go hunt for. While I know many people have issues with anyone messing with something they think they own, is a cache out in the woods considered owned? Quote Link to comment
+Right Wing Wacko Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 A notice I am thinking about putting on any traditional cache I plant. This cache and it's contents are the private property of ___________. This is NOT abandoned property. Permission to engage in standard Geocaching activities with this property is herby granted provide you leave something of equal or greater value of the item you remove. Travel Bugs and their Hitchhikers must be placed in an appropriate publicly available cache within a reasonable length of time. Pirate Cacheing or Plundering will be considered theft and will be reported to the proper authorities. Quote Link to comment
Pantalaimon Posted September 19, 2003 Author Share Posted September 19, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Right Wing Wacko:A notice I am thinking about putting on any traditional cache I plant... A well-written note. If your cache is plundered, and you call the police, what do you anticipate their response will be? Pan Here there be tigers. - My response when asked by a fellow Geocacher to describe the attitude of the forums. Quote Link to comment
+Whidbey Walk Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 quote:Originally posted by BrianSnat:They can play their game, but they aren't using my ball. I agree. The many supporters of the current pirate epidemic are failing to realize the full extent of the plundering. They keep saying "It's not so bad." "They are improving the cache." "They only move the cache a short distance." However, they are neglecting the truth. There maybe one pirate who is leaving a new container and a slight few other caches have had their contents returned (by the way, they were no where near the original cache location), but this is ignoring the truth in the majority of cases. The pirate in my region has managed to return the contents of three caches. Oh isn’t he such a good pirate. Never mind the fact he has plundered at least three times that many caches. To everyone who thinks this is just a new twist on the game: You’re being duped! Quote Link to comment
+Xitron Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 To Whidbey Walk you stated"Oh isn’t he such a good pirate._ Never mind the fact he has plundered at least three times that many caches. To everyone who thinks this is just a new twist on the game: You’re being duped!" Yes I am new to the game and may be duped, but since I am new to the game I have to take what people say at face value. If in fact the pirate is doing what he stated and is just improving the cache I have no problem with it. If however a cache is plundered and removed I do have a big problem with it as it adds nothing to the game and just serves to pi** people off. So if you pirate make sure the cache is close and you trade up inside it and add a bonus item for the next finder. Quote Link to comment
+sept1c_tank Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 OK. A pirate/plunderer is an *** and not worth the **** of day. So what can be done about it? I think the best solution is to just ignore them; turn the other cheek and put out a new cache. Yes, I have a few caches of my own. A couple seem to be really good ones. And yes, I spent a good deal of time planning and setting them. I would be really ****** if someone trashed them. But what can you do? If everyone started pulling all their caches, where would we be headed? The 911 of geocaching? Pirates are no better than terrorists. But you still have to live your life. ==============="If it feels good...do it"================ **(the other 9 out of 10 voices in my head say: "Don't do it.")** . Quote Link to comment
+NJ Admin Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Xitron:BrianSnat, I Applaud you for all the caches you have placed and all the effort you went through to do it. I agree with you on one hand, if someone plunders your cache and takes it or even moves it 100 miles away he is an a$$. If however the pirate just takes the loot moves it 100 feet and places the coords in the cache for the next finder then I don't see the problem. First off you will not have to go out and replace the cache contents the next finder will do that for you. Second the finder gets an extra bonus prize for finding and returning the cache's orginal loot. Third the finder gets a cache container to then place a new cache that you and I can go hunt for. While I know many people have issues with anyone messing with something they think they own, is a cache out in the woods considered owned? Since I think it's better to just ignore them, this will be my only comment. The Canadian pirate seems to be an exception, not the rule. The pirate that hit Briansnat's cache and others in NJ did not leave it nearby in a nice new container. He took all the contents, and left them in a ziplock 1/2 mile away, on what looks like private property. (the pirate mentions having to climb through a hole in a fence to retrieve the contents). We all know a ziplock bag is not suitible for a cache container, especially with the tropical storm that just swept over the area. -------------------- Personal slave of The Frog. Quote Link to comment
+droosa Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Xitron:Yes I am new to the game and may be duped, but since I am new to the game I have to take what people say at face value. If in fact the pirate is doing what he stated and is just improving the cache I have no problem with it. If however a cache is plundered and removed I do have a big problem with it as it adds nothing to the game and just serves to pi** people off. So if you pirate make sure the cache is close and you trade up inside it and add a bonus item for the next finder. Boy I can't stand this nonsense anymore. Your opinion is coming from a position of ignorance. You continue to state how new you are, but that is not the point. GO hide some caches and have them plundered and stolen. Then come back and report your feelings about how wonderful and innovative those actions are. When you support someone, other than the owner, taking these caches this game is damaged..period. These actions cause the owner time and effort to go check the cache and put it back in order. IF you support the rules of this game, then support the basic rule of respecting someone's property. These Pirates don't surprise me, but others supporting this activity do! We just lost two caches to theft, so supporting theft/tampering is a bit irritating to us. So, here you go...we hid 12 lost 3, go look at our area for cache population. HOW did that help our area? We are not putting any back that are stolen, how does that help our area? When someone makes the choice to remove your cache, whether to relocate it or not, they are degrading the game and NOTHING happens in this game without the cache and the people willing to hide them! You have a good day. Quote Link to comment
radical geezer Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 I've not yet encountered the problem, but I tend to agree with Sept1c_Tank. It sounds like these pirates are people who are desperate for attention, so I would suggest that the solution would be to give them as little attention as possible. How to do that? 1. Cache owner - BrianSnat (and others), please don't archive your caches. I'm sure this action pleases the pirates no end - it draws the attention to them they are seeking. Carry on as if nothing had happened. 2. Cache Finder - Here's where the problem might be solved. The finder of a pirated cache should (a) remove any evidence of piracy. If the pirated contents are nearby, the finder may be able to locate them, return them to their rightful place and log a normal find. This would deprive the pirate of any attention whatsoever. If the pirated contents are not nearby, the finder should then ( replenish the cache to the best of his/her ability, and © log a normal find. Assuming these pirates are furnishing some means of contact, the finder should then inform the pirate that evidence of their action has been removed and no one will be participating in their game, so any travel bugs or logs taken might as well be returned to the cache. The finder should also privately notify the cache owner, so that the owner will have the opportunity to make any further adjustments to the cache beyond what the finder has already done. Most of us carry an extra logbook and such so we can replace things that are missing, and I think that if we, as finders, do this, and pirates are finding that they're getting no notice other than the occasional communication of "Hey a**hole, you might as well return the logbook and TBs because they're not going to do you any good", we would be able to quickly take the wind out of the sails of these morons. Anyway, that's the way I believe I'll handle the problem if and when I find any pirated caches. To those who say no big deal, or maybe this adds another dimension - geocachers participate in this activity under an established set of parameters. Unless a cache owner indicates that he/she is willing to be a part of something that does not fall within those parameters, others should have the common decency to abide by the cache owner's established intentions. It is the equivalent of signing up for a flag football team only to have one of the participants take the ball and inform the others that *he* would rather play rugby. The rest of the team should neither give in to the sociopath nor be amused by his behavior. Peace, Radical Geezer [This message was edited by radical geezer on September 20, 2003 at 07:00 AM.] Quote Link to comment
+seneca Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 Well said, Radical Geezer. That is clearly how the problem should be handled. The Geocaching community that I know, has always supported an ethic of honesty and respect for the property of others. Its what makes the game work. Where in the world is there another game where you leave personal property unguarded in the woods and then tell thousands of strangers where to find it - with a reasonable expectation that the vast majority will respect it. It’s a credit to the decency of Geocachers in general. The “piracy” phenomena, although maybe only a minor irritant to some, does not fit in at all with this ethic. I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me. Quote Link to comment
Pantalaimon Posted September 20, 2003 Author Share Posted September 20, 2003 quote:Originally posted by radical geezer:2. Cache Finder - Here's where the problem might be solved... ..the finder should then inform the pirate that evidence of their action has been removed and no one will be participating in their game... If you're inclined to ingore the pirates in this way, which I think would be an effective way of taking the wind out of their sails, I would suggest no contact with the pirate whatsoever. I say this because I think the pirate would post your email on the web page, giving him exactly the attention he wants. That said, he may still post something about how you're ignoring him, but it will probably be much less satisfying to the pirate. Pan Here there be tigers. - My response when asked by a fellow Geocacher to describe the attitude of the forums. Quote Link to comment
+mozartman Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 I think Radical Geezer's solution is the best, with the addition of Pantalaimon's idea. Replace the contents if possible, log a find, email the owner, and ignore the idiot "pirate". He's not really a part of the game as I want to play it. Quote Link to comment
radical geezer Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 I agree with Pan & Mozartman that absolutely no contact with the pirate is ideal. The only reason I suggest the finder contact the pirate at all is for the purpose of trying to reclaim the logbook and any TBs that were taken. These are the two irreplaceable items that may be in a cache. If the finder can locate and retrieve them, then there is no reason at all to contact the pirate. If he/she cannot, then I think it may be worthwhile to make this contact, regardless of what the pirate may do with it. Peace, Radical Geezer Quote Link to comment
+mozartman Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 I think in the event of "piracy", you have to just consider the Bugs and Logbook as being gone. I believe ANY contact with the "pirate" will only encourage him in his efforts. Quote Link to comment
+mozartman Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 ...and of course, that means no talking about the pirate in the forums, either.... not even to complain about it. Quote Link to comment
Pantalaimon Posted September 20, 2003 Author Share Posted September 20, 2003 quote:Originally posted by mozartman:I think in the event of "piracy", you have to just consider the Bugs and Logbook as being gone. I believe ANY contact with the "pirate" will only encourage him in his efforts. I don't believe there has been any instance of a pirate taking a log book. I may be wrong, but I haven't heard of any such instance. Pan Here there be tigers. - My response when asked by a fellow Geocacher to describe the attitude of the forums. Quote Link to comment
+Team Og Rof A Klaw Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 quote:Gaak! Can you imagine the headache that entails? Particularly if the "owner" didn't respond fast enough for the hunter!?! I mean, look at the complaints here in these forums about how slow some of the approvals can be and multiply that by x caches.People that are running virts already have to do similar stuff. I don't see it as a very big deal. ____________________________ - Team Og Rof A Klaw All who wander are not lost. Quote Link to comment
+briansnat Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 quote:I don't believe there has been any instance of a pirate taking a log book. I may be wrong, but I haven't heard of any such instance. Well here's a log from today: We brought my sister and her boyfriend with us today. He is new to geocaching. This was our fourth one of the day and he was catching on as to what caching was about. He was so happy he found this one on his own, but then he said what's this, its empty. A note inside said its been geopirated. The kids didnt like that. Soooo we looked at their note and it said go to www.piratecaching.com to get your loot back. To our surprise the geopirate didnt follow his rules. He was suppose to leave the log book, a map to where he rehid the cache + a little something for the kiddies. This was the first time we ever seen this. The kids were disappointed. I certainly hope those jerks are satisfied. "You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm Quote Link to comment
+Team GeoCan Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Trogdor!:You know, I'm starting to agree with this opinion. IF the geotrash/mactoys/treasure does turn up in a new cache nearby what's the problem? The problem is that people PLAN cache hunts. The cache owner puts time, money and effort into placing cache for OTHERS enjoyment. The contents are not being stolen, the enjoyment is. Also many of the cachers expect to be "within the system" when they cache, ie: download waypoints, plan secific routes, and use the system to accomplish a successful, enjoyable trip. These pirates are the destroyers. The type of person who isn't having fun, so they make everyone as miserable as themselves. It is NOT harmless fun, especially when my caches are set by my KIDS, who get really disappointed when they disappear or get looted. Looting is a "part of the game" and happens sometimes, but ORGANIZED looting is dispicable. It is Sabotage (and yes, there is a TINY logo on the scope.) Trash-out, EVERYtime "And I asked myself, 'Why is he sprinkling dirt on his GPSr?' " Quote Link to comment
Trogdor! Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 I thought I’d make my last statement on subject. This is as much of an open letter to Geocan as it is to others on this thread. As I always do before responding to someone on the forum I’ll check the profile and stats so I can try to get a handle on where someone might be coming from. I see that you have had to replace a cache with a temp. for one that came up missing. Did firehouse16 and code3 ever return the original? For some reason I don’t seem to see a bunch of name calling or finger pointing at them for taking your cache. I’ve never placed a cache or placed anything into a cache that I didn’t expect could possibly be taken by a muggle or become MIA. I as a father of a 16 year old boy with Downs Syndrome, I can empathize with your using geocaching in your special needs kids education. As a parent of special needs kids you know how important it is to not be critical or judgmental of others based on hearsay or rhetoric. I especially know not to be critical of others because they are different or want to do something in a different way. I don’t know about you, but I’m not so willing to join a lynch mob based on fears of what might happen. I don’t under stand the basis of your statement that; “These pirates are the destroyers. The type of person who isn't having fun, so they make everyone as miserable as themselves.” Have you judged these Pirates to be miserable? How many of those who are complaining have been to Pir@tecaching.com ? Oh I’m sure there are some real “Toads” out there who enjoy screwing things up. There are going to be a certain percentage of mean people in any large group. I’m just not sure that every self-proclaimed Pirate is as destructive as some imply. Read the forums on the Pirate site and you will see that the site publishes “rules” for plundering. There is no promotion of the destruction of caches by these Pirates. Who ever is causing the problems in NJ is getting a lot of flack on the Pirate site for his actions. Look at the log for this cache and tell me about disappointment and destruction: Plundered and returned This gal really enjoyed the unexpected “twist” to the game! Another plundered cache: another Plundered and returned This one even has the nude cacher involved!!! (Now that’s a whole issue in of it’s self!) And finally: yet another plundered and returned The cache owner seems to be pretty happy with what happened. Ok flame me! I'm a Dragon I can take the flame! When in trouble, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout! Quote Link to comment
+Whidbey Walk Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Trogdor!: Look at the log for this cache and tell me about disappointment and destruction: http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=a4684a94-a4e0-4331-9afb-7f2645b18c95 This gal really enjoyed the unexpected “twist” to the game! Another plundered cache: http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=f0224ae4-5f36-4f73-b6a6-fcac4b4ad3c5 This one even has the nude cacher involved!!! (Now that’s a whole issue in of it’s self!) And finally: http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=5af9febe-4675-4ee6-b470-235a90c04a4a The cache owner seems to be pretty happy with what happened. I’m going to make this my last post on this topic as well. I again want to add perspective. Burrows Island plundered >8/19 http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=50683&log=y&decrypt= Geology Geocache #11 plundered >8/18 http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=41744&log=y&decrypt= Skagit Wings plundered >8/19 http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=4338&log=y&decrypt= Samish Bay View Point plundered >9/4 http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=2991&log=y&decrypt= Blanchard plundered >9/4 http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=20450&log=y&decrypt= Little Cache at Big Rock plundered >8/17 http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=68695&log=y&decrypt= Corny plundered >8/29 http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=68695&log=y&decrypt= Almost Lost Park #3 plundered >9/10 http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=61446&log=y&decrypt= A Big Rock with Big Views plundered >9/18 http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=44709&log=y&decrypt= None of these caches have been returned. There may be others out there that haven’t been discovered yet. Remember that the “pirate” doesn’t log on gc.com, or on his page, the caches he has plundered. He just lists what he wants. The aspects that make his actions appear more acceptable. Quote Link to comment
radical geezer Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Trogdor! - Since you made your post an open letter, I wanted to note that it does not address the central issue I raised - that a person engaging in piracy is attempting to force others to play the game/engage in the activity outside of the parameters the cache owner has accepted without ever requesting the cache owner's permission to do so. Whether or not items were returned, whether or not a subsequent cacher found the experience entertaining or amusing - indeed, whether or not the cache owner him/herself complained are all completely beside the point. The point is that the general world of geocachers - at least in my experience - is a group of generous people, respectful of both their environment and their fellow cachers. Piracy, in its involuntary enlisting of another in the activity one is pursuing, is antithetical to the fundamental concept of geocaching as I have come to understand it. Your statement "I especially know not to be critical of others because they are different or want to do something in a different way" is not applicable to the situation, as the people who are engaging in this are not merely doing "something in a different way", they are forcing someone else to be a participant in their "different" activity, which takes their actions to a completely different level than what you are talking about. If one wanted to engage in piracy without violating my understanding of the fundamental concepts of the sport, the only way to do it would be to plant some caches and then pirate your own. That way the pirates would be able to judge whether cachers are actually drawn to this "variation" of the game simply by observing whether or not their caches are being sought out. And in this case, your argument about judging people who want to do something in a different way would be applicable - we would have no grounds to judge a person who only played this little game with their own caches. But in any case, involuntarily enlisting another in one's own vision of the activity simply cannot be defended - it is rude, thoroughly disrespectful of others and can be viewed as nothing more or less than antisocial behavior. That is why I used the rather harsh term "sociopath" for these people in my initial post - it is a term that fits the behavior. Peace, Radical Geezer Quote Link to comment
+briansnat Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Bravo Rad Geezer. You said it far better than I could. I agree with every word and I wish that the apologists for these miscreants (some of whom I suspect may actually be one of them) had the capability to understand what you are saying. "You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm [This message was edited by BrianSnat on September 21, 2003 at 04:23 AM.] Quote Link to comment
+cmarrero Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Ok Now for my 2 Cents because I encounter the missing loot. I kinda like the idea according to what I have found the 2 caches the Pirate took is in the same park so we are going to try to reclaim it for the cache owners today after church. Now the idea is good but this A$$ can't even follow the rules on the game he is playing. He didn't leave a log book and he didn't leave any little toys for the kiddies that is what my young ones look for. Age 6,5,2,1 if this person follow his own rules then he would have made if fun cause this kids would have a toy and us adults would be out looking for another cache to help of the owner kinda like a search and rescue. I do think that the concept need a little work, also the guy needs a better website. And there should be no looting caches like the ones that where put out by kids for kids, Or based in kid location, like a kiddie park. The ones in that are adult based or not like a 1/1 should be fair game. Now on to archiving cache in responce to pirates, I think that would not be worth it. Maybe noting in the online logs that a pirate was there so people that will visit know what they are in for. But if we are going to archive every cache the we should just shut down geocaching.com and forget the whole concept. sooner of later they will get tired of doing this and just stay home. I can't think of how 1 person can get the jolly off on doing this every single weekend. Well those are my thoughts on the subject. Now let me step down from the soapbox Quote Link to comment
+briansnat Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 quote: Now on to archiving cache in responce to pirates, I think that would not be worth it. Maybe noting in the online logs that a pirate was there so people that will visit know what they are in for. But if we are going to archive every cache the we should just shut down geocaching.com and forget the whole concept.sooner of later they will get tired of doing this and just stay home. I can't think of how 1 person can get the jolly off on doing this every single weekend. Yeah, but what happens when the next pirate comes along. And what happens when there are 5 or 6 of these idiots working an area? They are actively recruiting others you know. Caches will be plundered repeatedly. I don't know about you, but I have better things to do than waste time chasing down the contents of my caches (if they are re-hidden. Judging from some of the posts here, this isn't happening in many cases). Maybe those who think this is a such a great idea should start their own website where everyone plants caches for others to plunder. "You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm Quote Link to comment
+canadazuuk Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 I'm not sure that archiving all our caches is neccessarily the best long run option, but to each their own. Perhaps making them 'members only' temporarily is a decent interim alternative? I do say this. We really need the administration of geocaching.com to make a formal statement regarding the pirate concept, so that we can put this issue to rest. Provided that gc.com is NOT willing to play along with the pirate concept, I would be in favor of some aggressive action taken against the apologists and advocates of the pirate concept. Up to and including banning them from this site. Let those in favor of the pirate concept go elsewhere. Quote Link to comment
Dinoprophet Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 First, an open statement to all potential pirates: I don't want to play your game, so leave my caches alone. Paintballers can't play paintball in my yard, cache pirates can't play with my caches. Second, if the pirate leaving bonus containers has such a great idea, why not just leave the container while leaving the original cache contents alone? People have been doing that for quite some time. Quote Link to comment
+cmarrero Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 quote:I don't know about you, but I have better things to do than waste time chasing down the contents of my caches (_if_ they are re-hidden. Judging from some of the posts here, this isn't happening in many cases). Bluehook 11 and Sailing Adriatic have been hidden but the A$$ doesn't even follow the rules set on that site. The concept need a lot of work PLUS we do need a statement by the SYSOP of geocaching.com to put this to rest. Worst case we will need to start making members only cache, but that will Suck for people that can't pay, also get rid of the monthly and keep the yearly in place. I think 30/yr will get rid of the pirates, unless they are crazy enought to pay $30.00 a year to loot caches. Quote Link to comment
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