Radios

October 28, 2003

I currently use two motorola two ways for me and my wife. We ususally have our 2 year old in teh car and if he is asleep, she hangs there with the printout, deciphering the code, and I go out searching. They havew come in reall handy at times, esp. on our last caching event (deatails at the end in case you don't want to read) My question is, What is GMRS/FRS radios? What ti sthe diference between what I have, basically a walkie talkie and these? What are the pros/cons?

The story:

" If you believe in yourself and have dedication and pride...and never quit, you'll be a winner. The price of victory is high but so are the rewards." Paul "Bear" Bryant

God Bless you and your family.

God bless

October 28, 2003

I hit the silly post button by accident

The story:

We recently went to a new cache to be FTF. I get out, wander down the trail, wife is in the car with mini-Bubba. She tells me, about 10 minutes into the search (we now know coords were off) she tells me there are some weird guys around the parking area. She watches two wander off into the woods. I tell her to get out and meet me half way (we were only 75-100 yards apart) Place ends up being a "meeting spot" for those who prefer it were Adam and Steve. We got out pretty quick. Later we find out that the local news had done stories on that location and video taped car tags. Don't want to have to explain that one to friends!!! Police have also begun to do sting operations there. So not only do I not want to be there at the wrong time, I don't want to have my family there. So the radios came in handy and my wife gave me a heads up on what was going on in the oarking area.

" If you believe in yourself and have dedication and pride...and never quit, you'll be a winner. The price of victory is high but so are the rewards." Paul "Bear" Bryant

God Bless you and your family.

God bless

October 28, 2003

I use FRS radios consistently, even when hiking alone I leave a note on my car to tune to FRS-2 to reach me.

The difference between them and a walkie talkie would include the multiple channels to choose from with the privacy codes, with my set I can technically get 500+ different private channels by combining the two options.

FRS radios I find also tend to have better range than regular walkie talkies.

then there's the Rinos, with those units you have a gps and frs in one, you can actually transmit data across the radio, such as waypoints and your current location.

In anycase I don't leave home with out them and if I'm caching with a group who doesnt have I always give them one of the units so we can stay in contact while splitting up on a search.

Keith

Bear & Ducky

5.3k · October 28, 2003

FRS radios are limited to a 2 mile range while GMRS radios are limited to 5 miles. With the FRS radio yo do not need a licences for GMRS you will, there is not test involved you just fill out a form and send it to the FCC with a check for $75.00. The license covers anyone in your family and is good for 5 years.

Keep in mind if you shop for a GMRS radio some of them have no more power than an FRS radio so there range will be the same. THey are both operate in the UHF band are line of sight communication, if there is a hill in the way they will not work.

My girl freind and I use Ham radios which are much more reliable but the license does require a simple test and the price is around $10.00 for ten years.

4.8k · October 28, 2003

We have a couple of Motorola's too. They're great for meeting up when we get seperated for one reason or another.

We love them for skiing so one of us can take a run up the chairlift while the other watches Jr. T on the rope tow:

"Excuse me Honey, what was that? Your breaking up, I can't hear you....."

- my wife

Be not afraid of greatness: some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them. The rest go geocaching.

5.3k · October 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Bear & Ducky:
I use FRS radios consistently, even when hiking alone I leave a note on my car to tune to FRS-2 to reach me.

The difference between them and a walkie talkie would include the multiple channels to choose from with the privacy codes, with my set I can technically get 500+ different private channels by combining the two options.

FRS radios I find also tend to have better range than regular walkie talkies.

then there's the Rinos, with those units you have a gps and frs in one, you can actually transmit data across the radio, such as waypoints and your current location.

In anycase I don't leave home with out them and if I'm caching with a group who doesnt have I always give them one of the units so we can stay in contact while splitting up on a search.

Keith

Bear & Ducky

Walkie Talkie is kind of a generic term. The type sold in toy stores I seem to remember operate in the 49 Mhz range, the ones that operat in CB band (27Mhz) will have amore power but they are very large.

Then you have the one that operate on Ham radio bands, these may opearte several bands, the most common being UHF (450 Mhz) Not the same as GMRS or FRS, VHF (144 Mhz). 6 meters (50Mhz) and a few will operate in the 220 Mhz or 1.2 Ghz range. WIth hame radios we also have access to repeater to extend or range in some cases to internet linked repeaters which will cover about any area in the planet.

2.3k · October 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Bubba Cache:
The story:

We recently went to a new cache to be FTF. I get out, wander down the trail, wife is in the car with mini-Bubba. She tells me, about 10 minutes into the search (we now know coords were off) she tells me there are some weird guys around the parking area. She watches two wander off into the woods. I tell her to get out and meet me half way (we were only 75-100 yards apart) Place ends up being a "meeting spot" for those who prefer it were Adam and Steve. We got out pretty quick. Later we find out that the local news had done stories on that location and video taped car tags. Don't want to have to explain that one to friends!!! Police have also begun to do sting operations there. So not only do I not want to be there at the wrong time, I don't want to have my family there. So the radios came in handy and my wife gave me a heads up on what was going on in the oarking area.

We tried to hit that cache the same day, Bubba... I made the mistake of going near dark. Those kinds of parks are called a "pickle park" in some parts of the country -- I can't think of a more appropriate name. I'll still be hitting the cache, but it'll be a QUICK run to the cache and I'll be dragging my wife in tow when I do. No news stories for me! To everybody else, turns out the coords were 250+ feet off. How the HELL the FTF guy found it I have no idea.

I also use the shorter-range radios. VERY handy! And as others have said, it seems that channel "2" is the one that has been adopted by geocachers.

See you on the trail! (But hopefully not at THAT park!)

Joel (joefrog)

"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for ye are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!"

5.9k · October 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Johnnyvegas:
FRS radios are limited to a 2 mile range while GMRS radios are limited to 5 miles. With the FRS radio yo do not need a licences for GMRS you will, there is not test involved you just fill out a form and send it to the FCC with a check for $75.00. The license covers anyone in your family and is good for 5 years.

Keep in mind if you shop for a GMRS radio some of them have no more power than an FRS radio so there range will be the same. THey are both operate in the UHF band are line of sight communication, if there is a hill in the way they will not work.

My girl freind and I use Ham radios which are much more reliable but the license does require a simple test and the price is around $10.00 for ten years.

A correction, FRS is not limited to a two mile range. That is just the best range you can expect from the real limit, one-half watt. FRS is limited to one-half watt (500 milliwatts) and must have a fixed antenna.

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

October 28, 2003

Kind of a recap here to clear up some mis-information.

FRS is a radio service that is called "Licence by Rule". What this means is that if you follow the rules, that is your licence. Just because a paper licence is not required does not mean that there are not rule covering the operation of the radio. FRS radios are limited to 1/2 watt of rf power. They are also limited to a non removeable fairly inefficient antenna. This was all by design. The FRS service was intended, by the FCC, to be short range communications for family use. Range is often advertiesed as 2 miles, is really just a marketing gimmick. Range of any radio is dependant on so many different variables that it is impossible to make a blanket statement about range. The FRS service consists of 14 channels, 7 around 462MHz, and 7 around 467MHz. Modulation is FM, as opposed to CB which used AM or SSB (Single Side Band). So think of the audio quality as comparing FM broadcast radio to AM broadcast radio.

GMRS is a LICENCED service. A lot of consumers seem to ignore this fact. As was stated a $75 licence is good for 5 years, and covers your entire family, including in-laws, children, grandparents and Aunts and Uncles. The only family it does not cover is cousins, which can be a very loose discription depending on your proximity to the Mason/Dixon line. GMRS service is a bit more complicated than FRS. GMRS is limited to 50 watts of power on the GMRS frequencies, and 5 watts on the "intrastital" frequencies that are shared with FRS. Antennas are not limited except for base stations. As was said above, range is a marketing gimmick, but GMRS can give much better range than FRS. Not necessarily because of higher power, but more importantly because you are not limited to the non removeable, inefficent antennas. GMRS also permits repeaters. A repeater is basically a reciever and a transmitter connected and placed on top of a mountain, building, or its antennas high on a tower. The repeater basically receives the signal from a mobile, base or handheld radio, and retransmits the signal from the higher location. This gives increased range.

There are FRS/GMRS radios out there, but most are a real compromise. FRS works just about as good as GMRS, unless you spend big bucks on commercial quality handheld or mobile radios.

My family and I have been using GMRS for many years. We use 35 watt mobile radios with external antennas, we all have commercial high quality radios that are set up to operate on GMRS frequencies.

In all truth, if you are happy with the FRS radios, stick with them. 1/2 watt can do pretty good. If you were to go out and spend more money on a 1,2 or 3 watt GMRS radio, all you are really going to see is maybe (if you are lucky) a very slight increase in range, and a whole lot of dead batteries. The increased power output does not translate into greater range, it just drains your batteries faster. Example: To get a 100% increase in radio range, you must increase RF power output by 400%. The real way to increse range is to use more efficent antennas.

The ideal situation, if you decide to go with GMRS is to use a high quality handheld, and either a mobile radio with an external antenna, or a handheld radio with an external antenna.

I am not trying to steer you away from using GMRS, just trying to clear up some of the marketing fog.

A really good source of information is available at www.popularwireless.com There are a few geocachers on the chat boards there.

GMRS WPQL444

HAM WL7MN

Patti and Matthew McKenna, Watsonville California

Garmin 72

1.4k · October 28, 2003

Is there an esatblished 2 meter simplex frequency for cachers or does everyone just use the national calling frequency?

73 de W4JEF

Jeff

http://www.AlaCache.com

http://www.StarsFellOnAlabama.com

http://www.NotAChance.com

October 28, 2003

I found a Pair of Motorola FRS radios for $36.

BTW, how long does it take you two year old to decrypt the clues? (You do know that you can click on "Decrypt" before you print them out...)

BTW, you can edit your posts by clicking on the icon with the pencil at the lower right of your message post as long as you are logged into the same account you used to enter the post.

"I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it"

1.4k · October 28, 2003

(You do know that you can click on "Decrypt" before you print them out...)

Sometimes having a child manually do things such as decrypting hints keeps them occupied while dad is out nabbing the cache. Also, by having a child participate in this manner it help them to think that they are an important part of the 'team' even if they aren't really old enough to help in all the searches.

Jeff

http://www.AlaCache.com

http://www.StarsFellOnAlabama.com

http://www.NotAChance.com

October 28, 2003

Actually, after I re-read the post, I see I interpreted it in a way that it couldn't be if I'd read carefully.

I do agree with what you said... my wife and I talked about printing the cache sheets encrypted and using the decryption task as a way to teach our 7 year old the value of persistance and the reward of a difficult task accomplished.

We just hit "Decrypt" and print it now.

"I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it"

5.3k · October 29, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:

quote:
Originally posted by Johnnyvegas:
FRS radios are limited to a 2 mile range while GMRS radios are limited to 5 miles. With the FRS radio yo do not need a licences for GMRS you will, there is not test involved you just fill out a form and send it to the FCC with a check for $75.00. The license covers anyone in your family and is good for 5 years.

Keep in mind if you shop for a GMRS radio some of them have no more power than an FRS radio so there range will be the same. THey are both operate in the UHF band are line of sight communication, if there is a hill in the way they will not work.

My girl freind and I use Ham radios which are much more reliable but the license does require a simple test and the price is around $10.00 for ten years.

A correction, FRS is _not_ limited to a two mile range. That is just the best range you can expect from the real limit, one-half watt. FRS is limited to one-half watt (500 milliwatts) and must have a fixed antenna.

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

Getting any more than 2 miles from an FRS radio is a long shoot. I have tried them from several companies and I hav enever gotten more than a mile.

The 2 mile limit is what the FCC requires, this is why they lare limeted to 500mw.

October 29, 2003

So, how do I boost the gain (other than building a linear amp)?

"I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it"

1.4k · October 29, 2003

So, how do I boost the gain (other than building a linear amp)?

You don't with an FRS radio, as this is illegal. You could however get a GMRS unit and pay the license fees or, better yet, get your ham ticket Dit Dit...

73 de W4JEF

Jeff

http://www.AlaCache.com

http://www.StarsFellOnAlabama.com

http://www.NotAChance.com

2.6k · October 29, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Johnnyvegas:
Getting any more than 2 miles from an FRS radio is a long shoot. I have tried them from several companies and I hav enever gotten more than a mile.

The 2 mile limit is what the FCC requires, this is why they lare limeted to 500mw.

I've tested five FRS and GMRS radios, out to 5 1/2 and 7 1/2 miles respectively.

Kenwood UBZ-LH14 Freetalk FRS

Motorola T5420 FRS

Motorola T6250 GMRS

Motorola T6400 GMRS

Motorola T7200 GMRS

I left my friend in an observation booth thirty feet off the ground. It had 360 degree double pain windows. I made a waypoint and drove away. I drove across a valley with only a few trees between us.

The FRS radios transmitted clearly out to 5 miles. They dropped off at 5 1/2. The GMRS T6250 and T6400 transmitted out to 6 1/2 miles and dropped off at 7. The 2 watt T7200 didn't do much better. It transmitted out to 7.2 miles and dropped off at 7.8 miles. Although it stayed clear all the way to the end.

This is line of sight. I drove into town. Where there were buildings and trees. The FRS would work for 1.8 miles and the GMRS for 2.7 miles. The Motorola FRS radios worked better in respect to the squelch. The Kenwood became very choppy even though it was clearer sounding.

[This message was edited by leatherman on October 29, 2003 at 10:30 AM.]

3.9k · October 29, 2003

I just got the Motorola T7510 FRS/GMRS radios. It says up to 5 mile range. I'll let you know.

What I want to know is what could happen if you don't get the license?

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I-

I took the one less traveled by,

And that has made all the difference.

Because now I am Lost.

2.6k · October 29, 2003

Do you mean the T5710?

I can't find anything on the T7510.

1.3k · October 29, 2003

I have had good results using FRS radios at a distance of 1.6 miles over water. The range greatly decreases in areas with dense vegetation, or buildings.

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

October 30, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Johnnyvegas:

quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:

quote:
Originally posted by Johnnyvegas:
FRS radios are limited to a 2 mile range while GMRS radios are limited to 5 miles. With the FRS radio yo do not need a licences for GMRS you will, there is not test involved you just fill out a form and send it to the FCC with a check for $75.00. The license covers anyone in your family and is good for 5 years.

Keep in mind if you shop for a GMRS radio some of them have no more power than an FRS radio so there range will be the same. THey are both operate in the UHF band are line of sight communication, if there is a hill in the way they will not work.

My girl freind and I use Ham radios which are much more reliable but the license does require a simple test and the price is around $10.00 for ten years.

A correction, FRS is _not_ limited to a two mile range. That is just the best range you can expect from the real limit, one-half watt. FRS is limited to one-half watt (500 milliwatts) and must have a fixed antenna.

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

Getting any more than 2 miles from an FRS radio is a long shoot. I have tried them from several companies and I hav enever gotten more than a mile.

The 2 mile limit is what the FCC requires, this is why they lare limeted to 500mw.

The FCC does not regulate based on "range". They regulate based RF power (500mw) or Effective Radiated Power (ERP is the combination of RF power and antenna gain).

As stated in an earlier post there is no way to make a general statement of the range of a communications system.

October 30, 2003

What would keep a person from buying a GMRS radio and not paying the $75 for the license? Not saying I'd do it... Just wondering.

October 30, 2003

Ethics.

2.3k · October 30, 2003

If you get caught without a license, you can get fined (not likely), or worse, not get a license in another FCC service when you really need to.

For best distance, hold the radio and antenna vertical, and as high and in the open as possible.

For FRS, you are stuck with the radio and antenna as purchased (no midifications). However, Radio Shack had one where the radio and antenna were enclosed in a magnetic mount for your car roof, with a cable down into your car for the control head and cig-lighter power. This will give more range because of the ground plane of your car roof, and the full power output.

October 30, 2003

With a lot of people going to FRS & GMRS is CB becoming more viable now?

Doesn't it have far greater range?

Couldn't CB radios be made small, almost approaching the compactness of FRS units?

October 30, 2003

From my understanding of CB radios, the power is only part of the equation. The antenea is the other. I remember when the thing to have was a 5' Tiger Tail, adjustable SWR stinger and just as good as 8'. I am not so sure that a CB would be beneficial in a crowded or heavily used area because of "walking". Explination: In the woods a FRS/GMRS has a relativily short range, but a CB would be picking up traffic from across the valley. Not to mention the fact that one can have mulitple "side" channels on the FRS/GMRS v. CB (that can be realistically put into a handheld unit).

See the happy moron

He doesn't give a da**

I wish I were a moron

My God, perhaps I am

Author Unknown

October 31, 2003

Do any of the FRS radios have adjustable squelch?

Mine tend to cut in and out, which gets annoying.

Or is it just because I have a pair of cheap Audiovox FRS radios?

How do the privacy codes work? Do you just select one, or is it like SSB, or what?

Do you just tune into the privacy code by flipping a switch or turning a dial after telling the other person which one to switch to?

"I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it"

October 31, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by jeff35080:
Is there an esatblished 2 meter simplex frequency for cachers or does everyone just use the national calling frequency?

We generally use 146.58 around here (Clarksville, TN) when out 'caching as a group.... When I've gone 'caching in other areas I've not gone with other HAMS, so I just scan several of the local repeaters just so I know I can hit at least one of them if the need arises. Some of the places I've cached in AZ the only comms were via a repeater, as cell phones had no service, and FRS is only good for a few miles under optimum conditions. My personal recommendation would be to get a Technician License (no morse code test required, just a multiple choice test) and get a HAM radio HT.... you'll find you'll use at times other than 'caching (if there are such times , too.

Hank

3.9k · October 31, 2003

quote:
We generally use 146.58 around here (Clarksville, TN) when out 'caching as a group.... When I've gone 'caching in other areas I've not gone with other HAMS, so I just scan several of the local repeaters just so I know I can hit at least one of them if the need arises. Some of the places I've cached in AZ the only comms were via a repeater, as cell phones had no service, and FRS is only good for a few miles under optimum conditions. My personal recommendation would be to get a Technician License (no morse code test required, just a multiple choice test) and get a HAM radio HT.... you'll find you'll use at times other than 'caching (if there are such times , too.

You feel pretty strongly about that statement don't ya Hank.

quote:
Do you mean the T5710?

Yep. Thats the one. And they work very well. Not amazing but well. Very clear to about 1.5 miles with some trees in the mix. Probably can't beat them for the price.

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I-

I took the one less traveled by,

And that has made all the difference.

Because now I am Lost.

November 1, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Mark 42:
Do any of the FRS radios have adjustable squelch?

There is no reason that they couldn't however I am not aware of a model currently on the market.

quote:
Mine tend to cut in and out, which gets annoying.

Or is it just because I have a pair of cheap Audiovox FRS radios?

How do the privacy codes work? Do you just select one, or is it like SSB, or what?

Do you just tune into the privacy code by flipping a switch or turning a dial after telling the other person which one to switch to?

The "Privacy Code" that is offered on FRS radios has nothing to do with privacy. These codes are sub-audible tones that are transmitted along with the carrier. Some people know these tones as CTCSS, Private Line (PL) Channel Guard, "Tone Code". It is a tone that you can not hear that is broadcast when ever you transmit. However it also blocks your receiver from hearing any transmission that does not have that tone.

Example:

Your radio is set to Channel 6 Code 0

My radio is set to Channel 6 Code 7

You can hear me, I can't hear you

Your radio is set to Channel 6 Code 12

My radio is set to Channel 6 Code 10

I cant hear you, You cant hear me

Your radio is set to Channel 6 Code 4

My radio is set to Channel 6 Code 4

I hear you, you hear me

Using this feature just helps to keep down the amount of crap you will hear. It offers you zero privacy.

Also, as a side not CB would in theory perform better in the woods as the lower frequency signals tend to travel better through vegitation then UHF (FRS/GMRS) signals.

November 3, 2003

Thanks!

So, if I understand you right, if I don't have the privacy

codes feature, I will hear everyone's transmissions,

which may even sound like they are walking all over each

other, but the people using that feature will only hear

each other.

Right?

I do wish I could turn up the squelch just a bit to stop

the static from cutting in and out. I suspect a weak signal

is triggering it. I wonder if there's a trim pot inside

the radio somewhere.

Are some brands less prone to this annoying phenomenon?

Radios

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