My cache was just confiscated. What do you think?

[Luffliffloaf]

Hello. My cache was just confiscated. Basically this message board message is a reprint of my last log, which includes a very polite email I received from fellow Geocachers and my response. I'm curious as to everyone's opinion on this matter, since the cache was confiscated only for safety reasons.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=31797

_________

 

We were climbing the stairs to your cache today, 9-08-02, when we met a park ranger coming down with your cache in his hands!!! We talked to him at length and he told us that the Park Commission decided to confiscate your cache because the cliff nearby was deemed too dangerous for folks to be wandering around off trail. He also told us that he was on his way to In Gorged to confiscate that cache next. Apparently for the same reason.

 

Now for the good news... The officer was quite pleasent and just informed us that the reason for taking the caches was more for public safety than anything else. He also stated that the owners (you) would be contacted to retrieve your cache without any kind of reprimand! They just felt it was better to pull the caches in the best interest of the park and public. He also said that they (the Park Service) would be notifing GeoCache.com in the next few days.

 

We asked him if there was any protocol to follow for getting permission to place a cache on their property and he said to call the main office and start working thru the many channels. He did say that it wouldn't happen (get permission) very

fast.

________

 

Let me just say that I am extremely frustrated about what has happened. My cache instructed geocachers to stay on the trail until they got very close to the cache. The cache was only ten feet off of the trail *away* from the cliff, and it was 50 feet away from the deadly-steep parts of the cliff. If this area is deemed unsafe, then the Metropark System should close the trail. This cache was not dangerous if instructions were followed in my opinion. I suppose any cache in the Metroparks should be 1/1's placed on flat land maybe 6 inches off of the trail.

 

Thus far no one has contacted me from the park system.

 

It seems that this cache will be permanently archived soon. Thanks to everyone who enjoyed the cache while it lasted.

 

Sincerely,

Loomis and Bughead

 

[This message was edited by Loomis and Bughead on September 09, 2002 at 09:12 PM.]

[Islander]

I was a park ranger with acadia national park for two years. Parks tend to get worked up about little things, esp when the rangers are bored and think of things to do. They were probably talking with a supervisor and all got paranoid and decided to remove the cache. I knew a guy who made it his duty to do stupid things like that. I would not have removed the cache from your discription, unless the policy said they were illegal, which at least in a national park almost everything besides walking ON the trail is.

[+welch]

first, im going to have to assume that you didnt make contact before during or after you placed the cache, and you never notified any of the rangers or anyone elase that there was or would be a cache at this location. if thats thats the case, i would suggest you take a deep breath and be glad that the "metropark system" seems to be taking this in stride. they havent banned caching in the park, they havent given you any fines that you know about, and they are looking for contact and communictation with geocachers. i see this as much better than several other course of action that could have been followed by them. also, i think now would be perfect time to prepare to place another cache since the two in the area are now gone.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Loomis and Bughead:

I suppose any cache in the Akron Metroparks should be 1/1's placed on flat land maybe 6 inches off of the trail.

Loomis and Bughead

---

call them up and talk to them...

 

[+welch]

first, im going to have to assume that you didnt make contact before during or after you placed the cache, and you never notified any of the rangers or anyone elase that there was or would be a cache at this location. if thats thats the case, i would suggest you take a deep breath and be glad that the "metropark system" seems to be taking this in stride. they havent banned caching in the park, they havent given you any fines that you know about, and they are looking for contact and communictation with geocachers. i see this as much better than several other course of action that could have been followed by them. also, i think now would be perfect time to prepare to place another cache since the two in the area are now gone.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Loomis and Bughead:

I suppose any cache in the Akron Metroparks should be 1/1's placed on flat land maybe 6 inches off of the trail.

Loomis and Bughead

---

call them up and talk to them...

 

[Luffliffloaf]

I cannot be angry or right about what happened, for you are correct in that I did not get permission to place this cache. However, my questions here regard the fact that the cache wasn't confiscated due to it being illegal per se, but because it was deemed unsafe. Safety verses confiscation and how that is determined is my question, especially when the park builds (and keeps open) a trail in an area that is apparently too unsafe to place a cache near.

 

Loomis

[+Rebel]

When placing a cache in an established park, it's best to get approval first.

 

Georgia has some really weird rules concerning caches in state parks. They must be in the office with combination locks, etc., etc. But you know what, we now have two approved caches in state parks, with a third to come soon.

 

I placed one in what is held to be the oldest state park in the country. I had to overcome some bias on the part of the park super, but we came to an agreement. I put that agreement on paper (bureaucrats love paper) and the cache was placed just a week or so ago.

 

Hopefully by being up front, open, cooperative, and responsible, we can open up *our* parks to our use.

 

I say that you humbly go to the park, apologize profusely and see if you can work out an agreement on cache placement.

 

More flies with honey!

 

-----------

"If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything." - Mark Twain

[+Renegade Knight]

Approving a cache is a simple thing. If the government chooses to make it complex, then most people will simplify the process on their behalf. "I called and asked about a cache and got a tentative approval. So I placed the cache and will remove it should after debating this for 6 months youre agency decides it should be there. Thanks and happy caching!"

 

Slowly this sport is getting organized. There are national geocaching places (this website for example) local homepages and the like.

 

Parks should be proactive and start getting in touch with us geocachers so we know who to talk to and how to get approval. Otherwise you will have 3000 cachers working 3000 people in 3000 agencies trying to place 3000 caches in 3000 spots. Give or take.

 

If they are not proactive, then they will compound their own work.

[river ranger]

... as a county park ranger (and cacher), my agency just became concerned about this activity in our parks (we have 3 located currently within our jurisdiction). i went to a local cache event and chatted with other cachers about our concerns and theirs as cachers. we will be getting together soon to discuss ideas about policy (really not much different from Geocaching.com posted policies).

 

i really enjoyed meeting fellow cachers, and their comments. this dialog will improve relations between cachers and those in my agency that may have knee jerk presumptions about this activity.

 

i recommend, if an agency is reluctant to work with cachers, suggest planting a 1/1 cache and invite the ranger staff (or whoever is in charge of location) for a demo cache hunt, let them find the cache. it would probably help if you filled the ammo box full of donuts. jelly filled ones ... just kidding. the more they understand the activity, the more they may accept it. good luck.

 

having to do what the voices in my GPSr tell me to do...

[river ranger]

... as a county park ranger (and cacher), my agency just became concerned about this activity in our parks (we have 3 located currently within our jurisdiction). i went to a local cache event and chatted with other cachers about our concerns and theirs as cachers. we will be getting together soon to discuss ideas about policy (really not much different from Geocaching.com posted policies).

 

i really enjoyed meeting fellow cachers, and their comments. this dialog will improve relations between cachers and those in my agency that may have knee jerk presumptions about this activity.

 

i recommend, if an agency is reluctant to work with cachers, suggest planting a 1/1 cache and invite the ranger staff (or whoever is in charge of location) for a demo cache hunt, let them find the cache. it would probably help if you filled the ammo box full of donuts. jelly filled ones ... just kidding. the more they understand the activity, the more they may accept it. good luck.

 

having to do what the voices in my GPSr tell me to do...

[+Byron & Anne]

It appears to me that if the park considered the cache to be in a dangerous place the worst thing you could do is go remove it. Now you've got geocachers looking all over the place for a cache that isn't there. Cachers have a tendency to wander in larger and larger circles when a cache can't be found. Therefore a greater risk of injury has been created rather than the risk reduced.

 

Byron

[+GrizzlyJohn]

Has anyone thought about what happens if the trickle down effect occurs with banning caches? They are not allowed in National Parks now. What happens when states start banning them in their parks? Then the local county and city parks start to follow suit. Where does that leave us to place caches? I don't want to seem like the grim reaper here but I don't know that it is that far fetched.

[+georgeandmary]

quote:

---

Originally posted by GrizzlyJohn:

Has anyone thought about what happens if the trickle down effect occurs with banning caches? They are not allowed in National Parks now. What happens when states start banning them in their parks? Then the local county and city parks start to follow suit. Where does that leave us to place caches? I don't want to seem like the grim reaper here but I don't know that it is that far fetched.

---

 

I can live a long time on urban micro caches. Maybe it's just because I live in the west, where we have so much open land, that I don't really see an end to geocaching.

 

I remeber a thread months ago, linked to a site where instead of containers, you carved something into a rock and placed that out in the woods somewhere. How are you going to regulate a rock in the woods? I'd hunt that. Or carve something into a downed log.

 

I've said before, i'm in it for the hunt. I'll hunt a rock in the woods.

 

george

 

Remember: Half the people you meet are below average.

[+Mr. Snazz]

quote:

---

Originally posted by GrizzlyJohn:

Has anyone thought about what happens if the trickle down effect occurs with banning caches? They are not allowed in National Parks now. What happens when states start banning them in their parks? Then the local county and city parks start to follow suit. Where does that leave us to place caches? I don't want to seem like the grim reaper here but I don't know that it is that far fetched.

---

 

For me, geocaching has been a "gateway drug", causing me to leave my Cave-o-Computers and venture forth into the world. Now, I'm occupying a different kind of cave - lava tube caves

 

Even if caches are banned everywhere, so long as our public lands are still open to foot traffic, I'll be out there. Looking for off-the-map caves. USGS benchmarks. Or even a great view.

 

[+Mr. Snazz]

quote:

---

Originally posted by GrizzlyJohn:

Has anyone thought about what happens if the trickle down effect occurs with banning caches? They are not allowed in National Parks now. What happens when states start banning them in their parks? Then the local county and city parks start to follow suit. Where does that leave us to place caches? I don't want to seem like the grim reaper here but I don't know that it is that far fetched.

---

 

For me, geocaching has been a "gateway drug", causing me to leave my Cave-o-Computers and venture forth into the world. Now, I'm occupying a different kind of cave - lava tube caves

 

Even if caches are banned everywhere, so long as our public lands are still open to foot traffic, I'll be out there. Looking for off-the-map caves. USGS benchmarks. Or even a great view.

 

[k2dave]

The 1st thing to do is to notify the owner and geocaching.com and get it archived.

 

Removing the cache was the worst thing they could do (besides putting bear traps near the cache). What they did could force geocachers to expand their search to include the dangerous cliff area. These guys are making a situtation they think is unsafe into a situation that would increase the risk of injury & death.

 

Guys like this may not have all their jelly beans in their jolly rodger's bag.

 

Actually that's just what bryan said.

 

[This message was edited by k2dave on September 10, 2002 at 10:36 AM.]

[+worldtraveler]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Loomis and Bughead:

...I'm curious as to everyone's opinion on this matter, since the cache was confiscated only for safety reasons.

---

1. You should have gotten permission first.

 

2. Perhaps the rangers would not have had a safety concern if your description had noted the fact that the cache was on the side of the trail AWAY from the cliff. I understand your logic that the cache placement was safer than the trail because it was farther from the cliff, but the rangers were probably using a different logic: the location of the trail is clearly known, but the location of the cache is unknown. Searchers could mistakenly look on the wrong side of the trail and go dangerously close to the cliff.

 

3. Use what you've learned to make your next placement more bulletproof.

 

Worldtraveler

[+Desert_Warrior]

I went to the state park headquarters, and made an appointment to see the parks director for this part of the state. I explained what GeoCaching was, and requested permission to place a cache on park property. I presented him with a complete outline of what I wanted to do, including my estimate of the environmental impact, and printed digital photos of the proposed cache site. I also let him see the actual cache.

 

After my presentation, he informed me that he was not in a position to give an answer, but he would forward my request to higher headquarters, with a favorable recommendation. To speed up the process, I offered him a CD with the proposal ready for electronic (E-mail) transmission. He accepted.

 

Within 2 weeks, I was granted approval. I placed the cache, and all has been well.

 

I have provided the local director with monthly updates, including photos of the area to assure him the environmental impact has been minimal. I also sent a letter to the surpervisors, as far up as I could find, outlining the entire process and thanking them for approval at all levels. You would not believe what an impression that thank-you letter made!

 

Yes... it did take quite a bit of leg-work to get the first approval. But now they know me, and I am certain I would get approval for any other cache I requested. And I have pointed out that I am willing to work with them to change or remove any cache they thought questionable.

 

Was it worth it? YES! It set the tone for geocaching in the state parks around El Paso, and we have a great acceptance within the parks service now... at least until some dumb-$hit screws it up.

 

Hope this helps someone....

 

Mike. KD9KC.

El Paso, Texas.

 

Seventeen minutes after her FIRST call for help, police officers arrived to find Ronyale White dead.

 

Prohibiting self defense is the ultimate crime. Police carry guns to protect themselves. What protects YOU ???

[magellan315]

Sounds like KD9KC has just provided you with a template to getting a cache placed. The only reason the pulled the cache was because of what they perceived to be a safety issue. Its their park, they manage it. However based on the Geocachers who ran into the park ranger, no one is unhappy with the cache and sounds like they will allow you to place the cache in a new location.

Just follow KD9KC'c process and you should have your cache up and running quickly. Get the park to help you find a new spot. I have a cache in which the park management drove me around for a 45 minute tour of the property. They found a location that I would have never found on my own.

[Lyra]

At least he was pretty cool about it, compared with what others have done. I think KD has given you exactly what you need to do. BTW, KD, that's a pretty impressive undertaking. I think I would've just found another place for it.

 

Always wear proper caching safety equipment!

[+Runaround]

Speaking as someone who found both the caches in question, I cannot fault the parks. Remember, they have to protect themselves against people doing something stupid and getting hurt. Normally, they tend to lean toward being very cautious.

 

"What are you Stairing at?" was close enough to a drop-off that an overprotective official could interpret it as being potentially dangerous. I sat on the log near the slope while going through the cache. It was enough to make me glad I didn't drop anything. "In Gorged" was actually part way down a slope with very poor footing. Throw in a little rain and you could slide for a while.

 

I recommend you archive the caches while you sort things out with the parks. You can always reinstate them. Talk to the parks officials about their concerns. If they're concerned about negative impacts of caching or are not in favor of it, have them talk with Carly Martin at Cleveland MetroParks. Lastly, consider coming to the NEO-Geocachers meeting on the 16th. Someone might have an idea.

 

Now where did I park my car???????

[+sbukosky]

My thought while reading the message was like others, that removing the cache will further endanger people who will look for it in a larger area. As much as I dislike the idea of asking permission for hiding a cache, this situation seems like a good arguement for requiring it.

 

Steve Bukosky N9BGH

Waukesha Wisconsin

[Luffliffloaf]

Thank for all of your input and advice.

 

I agree largely with nearly everything that everyone has said. Rather than address everyone's points, I would just like to say that thru all this, and thru all of the emails that I have received, the one thing that sticks in my mind is that both my cache and the "In Gorged" cache were removed in a manner that further endangered people. These caches would've been MIA with people dangerously looking for them maybe for a week had we not found out what had happened via another Geocacher.

 

Neither I nor the other Geocacher were or have been contacted since the caches were confiscated.

 

The owner of the other confiscated cache contacted the Metroparks and they gave him the runaround and had no idea what he was talking about. He left his phone number. We'll see if they call back.

 

Both caches had Bugs in them, so we'd like to at least get the caches back!

 

Shucks, what can you do?