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We're shooting ourselves in the foot, folks.


Attila
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That is the only one that was fairly close to the described area, anyway... I don't know that I would have added a note to that cache just yet though, just in case that wasn't the one. icon_smile.gif

 

I'd sure be careful about hiding stuff anywhere near urban stuff like that, though... not only do I not want to stir people up - but I also don't wanna have the police or FBI knocking on my door, like this guy might soon have. icon_razz.gif

 

- Toe.

 

--==< Rubbertoe's Webcam, Photo Albums, and Homepage >==--

 

[This message was edited by Rubbertoe on September 11, 2002 at 12:01 PM.]

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That is the only one that was fairly close to the described area, anyway... I don't know that I would have added a note to that cache just yet though, just in case that wasn't the one. icon_smile.gif

 

I'd sure be careful about hiding stuff anywhere near urban stuff like that, though... not only do I not want to stir people up - but I also don't wanna have the police or FBI knocking on my door, like this guy might soon have. icon_razz.gif

 

- Toe.

 

--==< Rubbertoe's Webcam, Photo Albums, and Homepage >==--

 

[This message was edited by Rubbertoe on September 11, 2002 at 12:01 PM.]

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(message edited several times to protect the potentially innocent and to hide my phear of accusing someone incorrectly) icon_wink.gif

 

Ya know... the more I look at that cache page, and then the page that is generated from an address search on MSN's terraserver - the more I'm not too certain it is actually the right cache. One has an airport nearby, the other doesn't as far as I can tell. Er, wait... that isn't an airport, that is a highway. Umm. I don't know. icon_smile.gif I guess I'll just watch that cache and see if it gets archived or not. Er, wait again... here is another incriminating image:

Topo Map for Junk Cache

 

That one even mentions the sewage plant by name. Ruht-roh rhaggy! icon_eek.gif

 

- Toe.

 

--==< Rubbertoe's Webcam, Photo Albums, and Homepage >==--

 

[This message was edited by Rubbertoe on September 11, 2002 at 12:03 PM.]

 

[This message was edited by Rubbertoe on September 11, 2002 at 12:08 PM.]

 

[This message was edited by Rubbertoe on September 11, 2002 at 12:11 PM.]

 

[This message was edited by Rubbertoe on September 11, 2002 at 12:12 PM.]

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(message edited several times to protect the potentially innocent and to hide my phear of accusing someone incorrectly) icon_wink.gif

 

Ya know... the more I look at that cache page, and then the page that is generated from an address search on MSN's terraserver - the more I'm not too certain it is actually the right cache. One has an airport nearby, the other doesn't as far as I can tell. Er, wait... that isn't an airport, that is a highway. Umm. I don't know. icon_smile.gif I guess I'll just watch that cache and see if it gets archived or not. Er, wait again... here is another incriminating image:

Topo Map for Junk Cache

 

That one even mentions the sewage plant by name. Ruht-roh rhaggy! icon_eek.gif

 

- Toe.

 

--==< Rubbertoe's Webcam, Photo Albums, and Homepage >==--

 

[This message was edited by Rubbertoe on September 11, 2002 at 12:03 PM.]

 

[This message was edited by Rubbertoe on September 11, 2002 at 12:08 PM.]

 

[This message was edited by Rubbertoe on September 11, 2002 at 12:11 PM.]

 

[This message was edited by Rubbertoe on September 11, 2002 at 12:12 PM.]

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Well, I did delete my note on the page, but it fits the description. I know the area pretty well. It's about 1/3 mile from the address in the article, and there is a sewer plant close by. Salt Lake International Airport is just to the west of the cache - not to mention the Utah Air National Guard base. Perhaps the one confiscated was not listed on this site. If so, it would be easy for the police to ID the person who placed it from his profile here.

 

[This message was edited by Attila on September 11, 2002 at 12:24 PM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by Attila:

Well, I did delete my note on the page, but it fits the description. I know the area pretty well. It's about 1/3 mile from the address in the article, and there is a sewer plant close by.


 

Yeah, I think that was a good choice to delete the log - at least for now. icon_smile.gif I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt until I'm sure about something... and this one we just can't be sure about.

 

Like you said, someone might have placed a new cache that wasn't listed yet - just in a location that is pretty close to the Junk Drawer Cache. Also, one other thing that I considered - perhaps some careless geocacher actually found and moved the cache from its original location.

 

For some reason, some people can't manage to return a cache to its original hiding spot. There was a cache close to me that was stolen, and the last person that found it informed the owner that they had found it a good 20-30 feet from the original hiding spot - right out in the open. With the newspaper article saying how it was found by the road, hopefully it won't be this guy's cache.

 

It still sucks that SOMEONE involved with geocaching would have let this happen, though.

 

Okay - enough posting and editing by me on this thread. I'll sit back and let y'all investigate. icon_wink.gif

 

- Toe.

 

--==< Rubbertoe's Webcam, Photo Albums, and Homepage >==--

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quote:
Originally posted by Attila:

Well, I did delete my note on the page, but it fits the description. I know the area pretty well. It's about 1/3 mile from the address in the article, and there is a sewer plant close by.


 

Yeah, I think that was a good choice to delete the log - at least for now. icon_smile.gif I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt until I'm sure about something... and this one we just can't be sure about.

 

Like you said, someone might have placed a new cache that wasn't listed yet - just in a location that is pretty close to the Junk Drawer Cache. Also, one other thing that I considered - perhaps some careless geocacher actually found and moved the cache from its original location.

 

For some reason, some people can't manage to return a cache to its original hiding spot. There was a cache close to me that was stolen, and the last person that found it informed the owner that they had found it a good 20-30 feet from the original hiding spot - right out in the open. With the newspaper article saying how it was found by the road, hopefully it won't be this guy's cache.

 

It still sucks that SOMEONE involved with geocaching would have let this happen, though.

 

Okay - enough posting and editing by me on this thread. I'll sit back and let y'all investigate. icon_wink.gif

 

- Toe.

 

--==< Rubbertoe's Webcam, Photo Albums, and Homepage >==--

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Looks like Roger is right... check out the online log for her Olympic Cache

 

The log even mentions photos and the dog doll. That's one thing I hadn't considered - the cache had already been archived, so it wasn't showing up in our searches. icon_smile.gif

 

Sorry about that, Roger... hope yours is hidden well over there - looks like they're really tighening down in that area.

 

- Toe.

 

--==< Rubbertoe's Webcam, Photo Albums, and Homepage >==--

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Looks like Roger is right... check out the online log for her Olympic Cache

 

The log even mentions photos and the dog doll. That's one thing I hadn't considered - the cache had already been archived, so it wasn't showing up in our searches. icon_smile.gif

 

Sorry about that, Roger... hope yours is hidden well over there - looks like they're really tighening down in that area.

 

- Toe.

 

--==< Rubbertoe's Webcam, Photo Albums, and Homepage >==--

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OK, I’m going to take what will probably be an unpopular position on this. Was the cache placement smart and was it legal? I say most likely to the former and yes to the latter. There is no law that I’m aware of that forbids geocaching/letterboxing/orienteering. The guy might get visited by the FBI? So what. He’ll simply explain what geocaching is and that should be the end of it. If the hider or any of the finders didn’t break any laws, and I doubt they did, what is the FBI or police going to do? Is congress going to ban geocaching or components of the game like ammo boxes? Not likely. I don’t know about anybody else, but I don’t recall surrendering my freedom before, during, or after 9/11. I’m an American and if I want to plunk down an ammo can in the weeds, I can. There is NO law against it. Remember COMMON SENSE? I am not familiar with the details of this particular cache but it sounds like a regular run of the mill cache that had the misfortune of being observed by someone a bit on the paranoid side.

 

The statement “We're shooting ourselves in the foot, folks” is absurd. How are “we” doing that? It wasn’t a “we” that called the cops; it was a “them”. One of us geocachers placed a cache (“we”) and it was misunderstood (by “them”) and was unfortunately killed off. Suddenly someone has declared the cache owner an outsider, judged them, and cast them off. I think the finger pointing, which is unnecessary first of all, was pointing in the wrong direction.

 

Right now as of today, there is no law against geocaching or the components thereof. The game has suffered no ill because of this. If nothing else it points out the irrationality of our current state of mind. If someone places an ammo can between the railroad ties outside a chemical plant, OK, bad decision. (It’s also private property which is way way bad.) In the weeds on the side of the road? WOOOOOO that’s a primary terrorist target!

 

All in all I thought the article was very even keeled. It wasn’t condemning of the game as other similar articles were. It leaves the reader to conclude that the whole incident was an innocent misunderstanding.

 

If your house catches afire, and there aint no water around,

If your house catches afire, and there aint no water around,

Throw your jelly out the window; let the dog-gone shack burn down.

**Huddie Ledbetter**

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You're right criminal, it WAS a misunderstanding. But, it didn't have to happen. I didn’t say anything about it being illegal or improperly placed. The owner had every right to place it there and it’s not their fault it got discovered. I just wanted to point out the fact that all of us need to be low-key about snooping around public areas. If not, the police, FBI, Forest Service, et. al. will actively remove ALL caches instead of just the ones they stumble across. (Actually, that sounds like a pretty good job – getting paid to search for caches). I’m sure the SLPD are pretty ticked that they used valuable time/$$$/resources to blow up a worthless box. I would be willing to bet that IF the finder was cautious about being seen (by a security guard), and IF it wasn’t the day before 9/11, and IF the cache was something other than an ammo box, etc, it wouldn’t have made the paper. AND, it would still be a part of this game.

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Attila, other than the “we” in the subject line, I agree with you. My outrage here is directed at the whole way we’re (yes, me too) acting since 9/11. One of the terrorist’s goals is to disrupt our way of life and the freedoms we are entitled to. I have it in my realm of capability to refuse to let them win that one.

 

If your house catches afire, and there aint no water around,

If your house catches afire, and there aint no water around,

Throw your jelly out the window; let the dog-gone shack burn down.

**Huddie Ledbetter**

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Sometimes you should do something just because you can. I will not voluntarily give up ANY of my freedoms. That being said obviously we need to be careful and smart about the caches that we place and/or hunt for. I always appreciate a cache page the lets me know that while the cache is on private land that the owner has given permission, or contains information like "no need to go into anyone's backyard" This makes me feel a lot more comfortable about searching for the cache and keeps me from stepping on anyone's toes accidentally

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quote:
Originally posted by cannonlaw:

...I will not voluntarily give up ANY of my freedoms...Sometimes you should do something just because you can...


 

Jeez, you'd swear you were talking about exercising 'sovereign rights' or something (GeoCaching is a GAME for crying out loud). Like you yourself said, this is about being "...careful and smart about the caches that we place and/or hunt for...".

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I think we all recognize the fact that "muggles" occasionally stumble on a cache. It's not the first time the bomb squad has been called out (can't find the thread right now that references two separate "controlled explosions"), but it happens.

 

9/11 sparks a great deal of emotion in every American and to someone who, in a position of authority, sees a guy slip into a hidden position, probably innocently looking around to make sure he's being discreet and looking pretty suspicious in the process and watches the guy hide a package near a public facility...well, a call to the cops would be pretty much a part of his job.

 

Bottom line is that the cacher was observed, despite what may have been his best efforts at discreetness. I've actually had to leave a cache area with the cache and return an hour or so later to replace it due to muggles dropping in on me whilst I fill out the log and figure out whether my trades are worthing of taking the good stuff. He got caught, and somebody reported it as suspicious. Can you blame them?

 

Always wear proper caching safety equipment!

60748_1200.jpg

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Does litter have contact information for the owner of the litter (well I guess in the case of some dumb litterers it may) and does litter have a letter explaining why it is there and is litter visited periodocally by the litterer to check up on its status and its impact on the surrounding area?

 

And finally, do litters post the coordinates of their litter on the internet, so other people can come to find it?

 

Calling a Geocache litter is a real stretch. My dictionary defines litter as "carelessly discarded waste or scraps". A Geocache is the exact opposite of that.

 

"Life is a daring adventure, or it is nothing" - Helen Kelle

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This incident was dramatically overrated. None of the local newspapers came even close to reporting this correctly. After personally speaking with local law enforcement and the geocachers involved I started developing a theory. I believe the person who called this into the police "enhanced" the story. Like telling them the person just set the ammo box down in plain sight (he didn't, he rehid it). The caller told them it was placed next to a power pole - it wasn't. etc etc etc. The FBI was briefly involved, but told the local police they knew about geocaching, and they weren't too worried about it. I for one will not alter my life because of terrorism. That's what those morons want us to do. Should we be careful when we geocache? Of course..But we should be that way anyway, regardless of 9/11.. Just my two cents..RogerB

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i think what happened here is a bad combination of a geocacher been noticed, local law enforcement stupidity, some baboon seeing a possible opportunity to be a hero, and overall bad timing.

 

i think that 9-11 has little or nothing to do with this because if it had been the same story on the first aniversary of the terrorist attacks in atlanta, or anywhere else for that matter, with the same baboon reporting to the same cops it probably would have been the same results.

 

the truth of this comes out from the fbi, they dismissed it for what it is - a game.

 

ps - if the local cops were a little more knowledgeable they could have looked up on this site and realized that it may have been a geocache and acted a little differently. not to say that caution wasn't warranted but i think that the bomb squad is overeacting.

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Its clear that the FBI and ATF know about this hobby. Have we ever thought of contacting them plainly so we can set up a dialogue that would involve clearly defined parameters for things like what type of containers are OK, what minimum labels are required, some coded system to link a specific container to a specific cache and a specific location. Then if we have another muggle who finds one of these, cops can be called and we can clear up the situation with a quick check of this website.

 

By appointment to the Court of HRM Queen Mikki I.

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quote:
Originally posted by bigredmed:

Its clear that the FBI and ATF know about this hobby. Have we ever thought of contacting them plainly so we can set up a dialogue that would involve clearly defined parameters for things like what type of containers are OK, what minimum labels are required, some coded system to link a specific container to a specific cache and a specific location. Then if we have another muggle who finds one of these, cops can be called and we can clear up the situation with a quick check of this website.

 

By appointment to the Court of HRM Queen Mikki I.


 

...so then any terrorist can safely hide his bomb by posting it to this website?

 

I don't think some people here have any idea what it's like to try maintain security. They seem to think security personel should be psychic and know the box-hiders intent.

If the price of security is a few caches get destroyed, count yourselves lucky, and just place your next one with a little more care and situational awareness.

Acting out on the idea that we should be able to place caches with total disregard for the state of the world and just do it to show contempt for security people will lead only to three possible results:

1. Geocachers will be seen as jerks by law enforcment and hassled as much as possble.

2. Geocaching will be outlawed.

or 3. Someone WILL disguise a bomb as a cache.

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Events like this point out why it's a bad idea to place caches in sensitive or conspicuous locations, or in locations where it is unusual to encounter recreational activities.

 

I also think we have to keep in mind when placing our caches that they will occasionally be visited by an indiscrete dimwit who can't/won't follow instructions, or who is so hopeless that their every movement appears suspicious.

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______________________________________________

......we can set up a dialogue that would involve clearly defined parameters for things like what type of containers are OK, what minimum labels are required, some coded system to link a specific container to a specific cache and a specific location.

________________________________________________

 

Here we go with the argument for more rules again. I enjoy the creativity of the different cache containers and imaginative placements. Why is it that every time something doesn’t go right, out of the woodwork comes the request for more rules and regulations? This was a very minor incident and I don’t blame the hider or the finder. Sh** happens. If anybody thinks that there will never be bad press, they are only kidding themselves. Insofar as the “press” is concerned, we’ll get good and bad. We get a lot more good than bad.

 

Also: Being more careful while you’re searching a cache will actually make you look more suspicious. Hold that Garmin high and look like what you are, a maniac searching around the bushes for a box.

icon_eek.gificon_razz.gificon_rolleyes.gif

 

If your house catches afire, and there aint no water around,

If your house catches afire, and there aint no water around,

Throw your jelly out the window; let the dog-gone shack burn down.

**Huddie Ledbetter**

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______________________________________________

......we can set up a dialogue that would involve clearly defined parameters for things like what type of containers are OK, what minimum labels are required, some coded system to link a specific container to a specific cache and a specific location.

________________________________________________

 

Here we go with the argument for more rules again. I enjoy the creativity of the different cache containers and imaginative placements. Why is it that every time something doesn’t go right, out of the woodwork comes the request for more rules and regulations? This was a very minor incident and I don’t blame the hider or the finder. Sh** happens. If anybody thinks that there will never be bad press, they are only kidding themselves. Insofar as the “press” is concerned, we’ll get good and bad. We get a lot more good than bad.

 

Also: Being more careful while you’re searching a cache will actually make you look more suspicious. Hold that Garmin high and look like what you are, a maniac searching around the bushes for a box.

icon_eek.gificon_razz.gificon_rolleyes.gif

 

If your house catches afire, and there aint no water around,

If your house catches afire, and there aint no water around,

Throw your jelly out the window; let the dog-gone shack burn down.

**Huddie Ledbetter**

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quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:

 

Here we go with the argument for more rules again. I enjoy the creativity of the different cache containers and imaginative placements. Why is it that every time something doesn’t go right, out of the woodwork comes the request for more rules and regulations? This was a very minor incident and I don’t blame the hider or the finder. Sh** happens. If anybody thinks that there will never be bad press, they are only kidding themselves. Insofar as the “press” is concerned, we’ll get good and bad. We get a lot more good than bad.

 

Also: Being more careful while you’re searching a cache will actually make you look more suspicious. Hold that Garmin high and look like what you are, a maniac searching around the bushes for a box.

icon_eek.gificon_razz.gificon_rolleyes.gif


 

I agree with criminal here. My dad was the one how drove away in a pickup truck. He had rehid the cache down by the log. The guy that had seen him had called about 1 to 2 hours after my dad had left. My dad was at a different cache by the time that the guy that called said he had been there. We think he might of gone down and found the cache and maybe even looked in it and wanted to be a hero so he called. What gets me is that the bomb squad still blew it up after they had opened i and gone through it. My dad and RogerB have set it up with the reporter to go on a geocache and after talking to the detective my dad said that he was ready to go buy a gps and join in the fun.

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quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:

 

Here we go with the argument for more rules again. I enjoy the creativity of the different cache containers and imaginative placements. Why is it that every time something doesn’t go right, out of the woodwork comes the request for more rules and regulations? This was a very minor incident and I don’t blame the hider or the finder. Sh** happens. If anybody thinks that there will never be bad press, they are only kidding themselves. Insofar as the “press” is concerned, we’ll get good and bad. We get a lot more good than bad.

 

Also: Being more careful while you’re searching a cache will actually make you look more suspicious. Hold that Garmin high and look like what you are, a maniac searching around the bushes for a box.

icon_eek.gificon_razz.gificon_rolleyes.gif


 

I agree with criminal here. My dad was the one how drove away in a pickup truck. He had rehid the cache down by the log. The guy that had seen him had called about 1 to 2 hours after my dad had left. My dad was at a different cache by the time that the guy that called said he had been there. We think he might of gone down and found the cache and maybe even looked in it and wanted to be a hero so he called. What gets me is that the bomb squad still blew it up after they had opened i and gone through it. My dad and RogerB have set it up with the reporter to go on a geocache and after talking to the detective my dad said that he was ready to go buy a gps and join in the fun.

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I wouldn't open an ammo box UNLESS it was located where I expected it to be. In other words, I wouldn't blindly open a can I found in the woods that was NOT listed on the geocache site.

 

In reality though, you are in considerably greater jeopardy driving to and from the caches than you are from a random act of terror in the woods.

 

If your house catches afire, and there aint no water around,

If your house catches afire, and there aint no water around,

Throw your jelly out the window; let the dog-gone shack burn down.

**Huddie Ledbetter**

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quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:

 

Here we go with the argument for more rules again. I enjoy the creativity of the different cache containers and imaginative placements. Why is it that every time something doesn’t go right, out of the woodwork comes the request for more rules and regulations


 

I'm totally with Criminal on this.

 

Like so many pieces knee-jerk legislation, rules like that totally miss the point and would not help. Might even hurt, not just my making the game less fun, but by detracting from the real point.

 

If anyone wants to prompt me as to what the point actually is, go ahead. I don't want to offer two unprompted rants in the same day.

 

ApK

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quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:

 

Here we go with the argument for more rules again. I enjoy the creativity of the different cache containers and imaginative placements. Why is it that every time something doesn’t go right, out of the woodwork comes the request for more rules and regulations? This was a very minor incident and I don’t blame the hider or the finder. Sh** happens. If anybody thinks that there will never be bad press, they are only kidding themselves. Insofar as the “press” is concerned, we’ll get good and bad. We get a lot more good than bad.


 

Bad Press?? Well... if everyone who does not like the bad press that happens writes the reports in a civilized manner and request that things like this get less spin or that the reporter do more research, then maybe they will. Everytime I see an article like this, I write the reporter. Most are receptive and a few have even offered to explore the game more (in a positive fashion). Have I seen any positive articles produced from this? Cannot say I have, but I have not seen another poorly spun article from them on the game.

 

Bear & Ting

 

I thought I was a little off, then I looked at my GPS and discovered I accurate to 12 ft.

 

Geocachers don't NEED to ask for directions!

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