Threatening Comments

[TahoeJoe]

I’m very disappointed with the behavior some members of the geocaching community have demonstrated with the issue of the removal of the caches in the Desolation Wilderness Area (see the thread “Removal of caches from the Lake Tahoe Desolation Wilderness”). From what I have heard from my friend Tahoeberne, ski3pin has been receiving threatening e-mails. This is totally wrong and unacceptable behavior. While I feel ski3pin may have made a poor judgment call, the facts are that geocaches are not allowed in wilderness areas and I will respect that. Any geocacher who threatens another geocacher should be removed from this website. I encourage anyone who has received threats to report them to the administrators of this website. Let’s stop the name calling and remember that we make ourselves look bad to the community when we resort to negative comments and behavior. Let’s continue to work to make geocaching a fun activity for all to enjoy.

 

Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others.

 

[This message was edited by TahoeJoe on November 05, 2002 at 11:46 AM.]

[+Criminal]

No, that's beyond bad. It's perfectly acceptable to disagree with a person or their actions. Threatening them by email or any other way is downright wrong.

 

If your house catches afire, and there ain?t no water around,

If your house catches afire, and there ain?t no water around,

Throw your jelly out the window; let the dog-gone shack burn down.

**Huddie Ledbetter**

[Salvo]

I couldn't resist that, criminal! Sorry!

 

We've unfortunately recently seen a little of this action out here in Memphis as well.

 

It takes some of the fun away from the activity, and actually doesn't hurt the cache hider (other than materially losing the cache), but rather hurts other future finders.

[Duke of the Desert]

Well, at least you were bright enough to remove your name calling posts from the cache log pages before posting this thread here. I seem to remember words like "self-appointed-cache-anihilating-gestapo" or something similar in your posts to the pages, as well as on the thread about the Desolation Wilderness. I to believe that threatening harm to people is very wrong. A healthy debate is one thing. threatening violence is quite another. I just found it a bit amusing that you yourself were doing a little name calling, then removed your posts before starting this thread.

 

Huh?

[TahoeJoe]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Duke_:

Well, at least you were bright enough to remove your name calling posts from the cache log pages before posting this thread here. I seem to remember words like "self-appointed-cache-anihilating-gestapo" or something similar in your posts to the pages, as well as on the thread about the Desolation Wilderness. I to believe that threatening harm to people is very wrong. A healthy debate is one thing. threatening violence is quite another. I just found it a bit amusing that you yourself were doing a little name calling, then removed your posts before starting this thread.

 

Huh?

---

I think you have me confused with someonle else, I never made such comments. If you reread the orginal thread you will see that I didn't make that comment. I think and reflect on what I have written before I post it. Also you only have 1440 minutes after posting to delete your comments on a thread.

 

Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others.

 

[This message was edited by TahoeJoe on November 05, 2002 at 12:42 PM.]

[+ron50eli]

What did we miss. Shame on them. Though I don't know what happened. This is suppose to be a fun game, sport, outing, whatever you perfer. Are we turning into the WWF,NFL,NHL ect. Sure hope not.

rocker51.

ok I'm ready. I know I'll get slack about pro-sports. But.......

[+cachew nut]

I think there's a difference in the kind of threats one can receive. If someone threatens you with bodily harm, I'm almost positive you can get the police to act. If you threaten to turn someone's cache into a doot bucket, I'm pretty sure you can get the police to laugh.

 

Anyone stupid enough to threaten someone else with bodily harm over email deserves what they get.

 

Anyway, who else is getting tired of reading about Lake Tahoe Desolation Wilderness? This seems to be an isolated regional issue, maybe this belongs in the regional forums.

[tahoeberne]

D

Originally posted by Duke_:

Well, at least you were bright enough to remove your name calling posts from the cache log pages before posting this thread here. I seem to remember words like "self-appointed-cache-anihilating-gestapo" or something similar in your posts to the pages, as well as on the thread about the Desolation Wilderness. I to believe that threatening harm to people is very wrong. A healthy debate is one thing. threatening violence is quite another. I just found it a bit amusing that you yourself were doing a little name calling, then removed your posts before starting this thread.

 

________________________________________________

 

Duke,

 

Please check the posts carefully. The fact is that I, TahoeBerne, originally used the name-calling as stated above, not TahoeJoe. It was my first entry when I originated the topic of removing caches from wilderness areas. Learning more and having contacted the cache remover, forest service, cache placers, and many others, I have since apologized for my anger and lack of restraint in name calling. I tried to even delete that first entry, but I went beyond the time limit of 1440 minutes.

 

I again will state that it is illegal to place caches in the wilderness area and I support that policy; there are too many other areas available.

 

We tarnish our reputation as legitimate and respected geocachers with disrespectful, or worse, threatening tones of expression. This should not be tolerated by us, the geocaching website mananagement, and the viewer-at-large who can visit our website. As TahoeJoe stated, we put our reputations on the line with our words and we need to think carefully and respond thoughtfully in a media where everyone can be viewing us. Violators who flagrantly disregard this, I agree, should be reported to the website administrators.

Tahoeberne

 

David Berne

 

[This message was edited by tahoeberne on November 05, 2002 at 03:37 PM.]

 

[This message was edited by tahoeberne on November 05, 2002 at 03:40 PM.]

 

[This message was edited by tahoeberne on November 05, 2002 at 03:42 PM.]

[+georgeandmary]

Society has codes of conduct and accepted standards in order for people to get along with each other. It is proper etiquette to email someone if there is a problem with a cache. Ski3peeOh, decided to step outside these codes of conduct, and used here own rules of engagement. Some memebers of the geocaching society have reacted.

 

There are rules for a reason. How exactly did she expect people to react?

 

george

 

Pedal until your legs cramp up and then pedal some more.

[tahoeberne]

quote:

---

Originally posted by georgeandmary:

Society has codes of conduct and accepted standards in order for people to get along with each other. It is proper etiquette to email someone if there is a problem with a cache. Ski3peeOh, decided to step outside these codes of conduct, and used here own rules of engagement. Some memebers of the geocaching society have reacted.

 

There are rules for a reason. How exactly did she expect people to react?

 

george

 

http://img.Groundspeak.com/user/39570_500.jpg

Pedal until your legs cramp up and then pedal some more.

---

--------------------------------------------------

 

I surely don't think ski3pin expected threatening emails,and epithets. This flatly does not fit into the realm of etiquette in my book. Yes, ski3pin did step outside the respectable bounds as the majority of posts affirmed, but the abundance of villifying reactions, likewise, steps out of bounds of deceny of criticism.

 

By the way, I am sure it can be physically proven that if you pedal until your legs cramp up, and then pedal some more, you can receive serious tissue and muscle damage. Going to extreme means going to the edge, but not over it: otherwise it is a long, nasty fall.

 

David Berne

[+Alan2]

“Have you heard? They found some poor guy who was caching the North Fork that had been stabbed. The Feds picked up another cacher just outside the park fleeing with a makeshift plastic McToy sharpened to fine tip and stained bloody. Apparantly a dispute broke out. The first guy was insisting to hide this ammo box under some rock and the second wouldn’t let him insisting ‘not in this park you don’t’ and one thing led to another and than it happened.”

 

“That’s really pathetic. I thought cachers were cool, hiking, nature loving, high-tech geeks who just didn’t get along with society. Especially their wives. That’s why they’re out in the woods all the time. But not this! What’s this world coming too?”

 

“Yup. In fact I just got a call from a geocacher who regularly uses our park. He wanted to know if it was all right to cache a flak jacket to use when he visits or would it be considered abandoned property?”

[+Planet]

Just plain Bad Form! boo hiss

 

Cache you later,

Planet

 

I feel much more like I do now than when I first got here.

[+georgeandmary]

quote:

---

Originally posted by tahoeberne:

 

By the way, I am sure it can be physically proven that if you pedal until your legs cramp up, and then pedal some more, you can receive serious tissue and muscle damage.

 

David Berne

---

 

It happens all the time with the me and the guys I ride bikes with. What else are you going to do. You're in the middle of the woods on a long bike ride and you're legs cramp up. If I stop, it hurts more, so I keep pedaling and then the cramp goes away. Hurts like hell, but I'm not going to lay down and cry. I keep going.

 

george

 

Pedal until your legs cramp up and then pedal some more.

[+georgeandmary]

quote:

---

Originally posted by tahoeberne:

 

I surely don't think ski3pin expected threatening emails,and epithets. This flatly does not fit into the realm of etiquette in my book. Yes, ski3pin did step outside the respectable bounds as the majority of posts affirmed, but the abundance of villifying reactions, likewise, steps out of bounds of deceny of criticism.

---

 

I've never said threatening a person by email is right but when you stand up for something you believe in, and then steal someone's property to uphold that belief, you have to expect a reaction. A lot of people are fed up with the whole tree hugger group and this is just one more hugger forcing their opinion upon everyone else.

 

People have lost jobs, property and money to these tree huggers. Now you have one imposing their political views on our recreation. How hard is it to beleive that someone would get really PO'ed?

Right or wrong, if you're going to take matters into your own hand you will get a reaction. It may not be one you like, one that fair, or even one that is reasonable, but I would not consider it unexpected.

 

george

 

Pedal until your legs cramp up and then pedal some more.

[+LaPaglia]

Just checking I have this right.

 

Threats BAD

 

Name Calling NOT SO GOOD

 

Pedal thru the pain GOOD

 

 

Did that sum this thread up?

 

Lapaglia

Muga Muchu (forget yourself, focus)

[+cachew nut]

Someone please Markwell this thread to here.

[tahoeberne]

It happens all the time with the me and the guys I ride bikes with. What else are you going to do. You're in the middle of the woods on a long bike ride and you're legs cramp up. If I stop, it hurts more, so I keep pedaling and then the cramp goes away. Hurts like hell, but I'm not going to lay down and cry. I keep going.

 

_________________________________________________

 

OK. Under those conditions, I would do the same.

 

David Berne

[tahoeberne]

Originally posted by Lapaglia:

Just checking I have this right.

Threats BAD

Name Calling NOT SO GOOD

Pedal thru the pain GOOD

________________________________________________

 

Lapaglia,

You sure know how to sum up threads. It must come from forgetting yourself and focusing.

 

David Berne

[Duke of the Desert]

Bernie was ticked about this Babe In Total Control Herself removing caches. Bernie posts the issue and inflames others. Now Bernie, after getting support, decides he might have screwed the pooch and does a 180. Well, in my book, Bernie has a right to do what he will. But I'll be doing some serious research before I decide to throw my .02 behing this guy again.

 

Huh?

[+cachew nut]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Duke_:

Bernie was ticked

---

Who's Bernie?

edit...nevermind

[tahoeberne]

"A lot of people are fed up with the whole tree hugger group and this is just one more hugger forcing their opinion upon everyone else. People have lost jobs, property and money to these tree huggers. Now you have one imposing their political views on our recreation."

george

_________________________________________________

First of all, there are many degrees of tree hugger groups: some want to save all trees, some want to save most trees, some want to save selected trees, and some want to propagate healthy forests--such as the forest service. So lumping them together is an inaccurate stereotype.

 

Second. By restricting caches in a wilderness area, we geocachers may be losing a place to seek caches, but we certainly are not remotely close to losing jobs, property, and money.

 

Third. In regard to imposing their political views, yes this is true. Just as it is true that we all directly or indirectly impose our political views. The named tree hugger we are talking about here just enforced the existing view which is now a political law.

 

And fourth, the concern in Desolation Wilderness is not trees. It is virtually a granite area with trees that are few and far between due to the massive terrain of granite, hence, the name Desolation. What is the concern is that this wilderness area is the most heavily used area in the country and erosion, land decimation, litter, and scenic destruction are the primary concerns. Thus, this tree hugger might rightly be labelled a granite hugger.

Something to think about.

 

David Berne

[Cache Canucks]

quote:

---

Originally posted by cachew nut:

"...Someone please Markwell this thread to [url=http://opentopic.Groundspeak.com/0/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=1750973553&f=3000917383&m=9320929635..."

---

Oh NOOOOOOO...!!! Linking this thread to the original (...6 pages and counting) 'discussion'(?) is like one of those nasty not-so-fun Fun House hall of mirrors where you get caught in an endless series of nasty reflections that just keep going on and on and on... AHHHHHHH!!!

 

Is it just me, or do you get the impression that some folks simply enjoy climbin' the ol' soapbox and listening the steady clickity-click of their own keyboards ...even if they *are* saying the same thing over, and over (and over) again? If there ever is a 'National' geocaching event (the subject of a much more constructive thread I might add), it will certainly be interesting to see how some of the more 'vocal' forum regulars handle themselves 'in the flesh' when each statement they make isn't punctuated by hitting the 'Post Now' button. My guess is, should that occasion ever arise, we'd discover what we should already know ...whatever it is that drew us into GeoCaching in the first place is probably a heck of a lot stronger at forging our friendships than any 'over magnified' differences in the forums could be at sustaining the bickering.

[Duke of the Desert]

quote:

---

Originally posted by TahoeJoe:

 

I think you have me confused with someonle else, I never made such comments. If you reread the orginal thread you will see that I didn't make that comment. I think and reflect on what I have written before I post it. Also you only have 1440 minutes after posting to delete your comments on a thread.

---

 

Joe, you can think and reflect as much as you like, but if you are denying that you deleted messages that you have posted, then you are simply damaging your credibility. I don't have you confused with anyone. At least your p had the nads to leave his posts as they were. You deleted yours, and if you say you didn't, you are simply lying. End of story. We all saw them. I'm sure my cache (computer cache that is) isn't the only one that retains them. Good grief man, you had a good cause you were supporting. Name calling isn't a capital offense. Blowing your integrity is though. At least in my opinion, which might not be worth much.

 

Huh

 

[This message was edited by Duke_ on November 05, 2002 at 07:28 PM.]

[+Mudfrog]

Originally posted by Duke:

quote:

---

Amusing

 

Well, at least you were bright enough to remove your name calling posts from the cache log pages before posting this thread here. I seem to remember words like "self-appointed-cache-anihilating-gestapo" or something similar in your posts to the pages, as well as on the thread about the Desolation Wilderness. I to believe that threatening harm to people is very wrong. A healthy debate is one thing. threatening violence is quite another. I just found it a bit amusing that you yourself were doing a little name calling, then removed your posts before starting this thread.

---

hhmmmm, Seems like you are implying that TahoeJoe had deleted or edited his messages right before he posted this thread.

 

As i expected, i posted here and then tried to delete the message. This is what came up:

"This forum does not allow messages to be deleted.".

 

I havnt read all the threads on this board but did go back and read the Removal of caches from the Lake Tahoe Desolate Forest thread. Only found a couple or three posts by TahoeJoe that he edited, and they were done minutes after he originally posted on the same day. Maybe im missing something here?

 

[This message was edited by Mudfrog on November 05, 2002 at 08:26 PM.]

[Duke of the Desert]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:

Originally posted by Duke:

Amusing

 

I havnt read all the threads on this board but did go back and read the Removal of caches from the Lake Tahoe Desolate Forest thread. Only found a couple or three posts by TahoeJoe that he edited, and they were done minutes after he originally posted on the same day. Maybe im missing something here?

 

[This message was edited by Mudfrog on November 05, 2002 at 08:26 PM.]

---

 

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I was refering to the actual cache pages (of the caches that were removed) wherein Tahoe Joe echoed his partner, TahoeBerne's comments, ripping on the gal that removed the caches. If you'll note, Bernes comments are all that remain on those pages (at least the last time that I looked), and Joe's have been removed.

 

Huh?

[+Mudfrog]

WHOOPS, i see you stated cache log pages in your reply above so i did mess up here. Oh well, second time in my life that ive screwed up,, guess thats not too bad!

 

I didnt read the cache page logs before so i have no idea what was posted, ,, im shutting up now!

[+briansnat]

I disagreed vehemently with Ski3pin's actions and admit to a lot of name calling. I stand by that. But anybody who would send her threatening mail is an idiot. IF that's really happening.

 

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on its hind legs, but by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" -Max Beerbohm

[+Jamie Z]

So... let me see if I understand this. According to the "other" thread about this topic, no one has heard from or talked to ski3pin. In fact, it seems that we don't even know the sex of this person, or if "they" are an individual or group. But somehow we know that this person has received threatening email? How does that work?

 

Jamie

[+worldtraveler]

Before someone else responds (possibly in a less friendly, name-calling manner ), S3P is a "she", and has responded. I'm not going to try to Markwell you to them (too lazy and he does them much better anyway ), but I did read a few responses from her on one of these related threads.

 

edit: Or maybe it was just somebody quoting an email response from her? I don't remember exactly and don't care enough to check anymore.

[+briansnat]

quote:

---

Or maybe it was just somebody quoting an email response from her?

---

 

Yes, someone has printed responses that he received from her, in the thread that started this all.

 

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on its hind legs, but by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" -Max Beerbohm

[+Markwell]

The thread and what DisQuoi posted October 23, 2002 11:24 AM

 

I have purposefully NOT responded in that thread (nor read it in full) until now. I'm glad I hadn't. My responses would not have been viewed as kosher in that thread.

 

Markwell

Chicago Geocaching

"Therapy is expensive but bubble wrap is free."

[+Jamie Z]

I guess I missed that part. Thanks guys.

 

Well.. I have some more opinions, but I'm gonna leave 'em out.

 

Jamie

[tahoeberne]

Originally posted by Duke_:

Bernie was ticked about this Babe In Total Control Herself removing caches. Bernie posts the issue and inflames others. Now Bernie, after getting support, decides he might have screwed the pooch and does a 180.

______________________________________________

 

A 180, Duke? Well, let's see. Berne, not Bernie--that's me, posts that the manner in which the cache was removed was not in line with what a respectful geocacher would do if they found a cache in a Wilderness Area. All my subsequent posts have not changed on that point.

Second, geocache placing in a wilderness area is illegal. Again, all my posts keep this consistency.

Third, I condemn threatening email. It is completely inappropriate and unacceptable. I still stand by that.

180? I don't see no stinkin' 180.....

 

David Berne

[Duke of the Desert]

quote:

---

Originally posted by tahoeberne:

A 180, Duke? Well, let's see. Berne, not Bernie--that's me, posts that the manner in which the cache was removed was not in line with what a respectful geocacher would do if they found a cache in a Wilderness Area. All my subsequent posts have not changed on that point.

Second, geocache placing in a wilderness area is illegal. Again, all my posts keep this consistency.

Third, I condemn threatening email. It is completely inappropriate and unacceptable. I still stand by that.

180? I don't see no stinkin' 180.....

 

David Berne

---

 

I stand corrected Mr. Berne. I was under the impression that you, as I, believed that caches in wilderness areas were acceptable unless they are specifically banned by the authority having jurisdiction over the area. The fact that some rangers allow such caches while others do not has lead me to believe this. I was under the impression that you believed, as I do, that geocaching does not impact such areas in a negative way. Damaging granite by geocaching? I don't think so. Anyway, it appeared to me that we were on the same side of the issue. Then it appeared you were trying to convince folks to not place caches in wilderness areas. As for sending threatening emails, hey, we definately are on the same side. Thats poor form, and further, it is STUPID. The evidence is there should this lady decide to press charges.

[tahoeberne]

Duke,

Thanks for your understanding, and yes, we do seem to be basically standing on the same side of this issue. The geocaching guidelines state clearly what the conditions are when placing a cache. In my 50+ geocaches found, I always find a sense of care for the environment by geocach seekers. Many mention about picking up trash and treading lightly. It seems then, that in practical terms, if you are not hurting that which is not supposed to be hurt, then it should be OK. That of course, is not always everyone's view. Some uphold laws, regardless of reality, and others almost totally ignore it. Well, with the big differences in ranger enforcement, this is what you have. Fortunately, there exists a wide range of places where cache placement is not critical issue and that is why this form of recreation is still fun.

 

David Berne

[Duke of the Desert]

Will be seekin your caches my next pass through! / 5