Guest Irishmike3032 Posted September 10, 2001 Share Posted September 10, 2001 In another forum someone had metioned the absoulute lack of 4/4 5/5 caches out there. I sat yesterday pondering where to place my first cache. I am an avid hiker and outdoor enthusiast. I have hiked a decent section of the AT. I gave serious consideration to making my first cache a 5/5 cache. The problem is this, I went to a geocaching picnic here in NJ and the idea was not very well received. I have considered hiding caches in very remote areas. In my job I have been trained in rope work and SAR (search and rescue) as well as many, many other subjects. I think there would be a call for a cache that would require some top ropeing to get to. I also live by the shore and own a boat, lent consideration to hiding the cache on a small island ( acccesable by small boat or kayak or canoe) however I am at a loss here. I have not been able to find any like this, and it would be no fun if I hid one like this and noone went after it. HELP!!!! Quote Link to comment
Guest tedoca Posted September 10, 2001 Share Posted September 10, 2001 As they are very fond of saying around here... "If you hide it, they will come." Sure, some people may not want to work that hard to get your cache but there will be others who will go after it simply because it is rated 5/5. I say go for it! Terence Quote Link to comment
Guest AZMark Posted September 10, 2001 Share Posted September 10, 2001 or maybe not a 5/5 but a terrain 5 difficulty 3 or so.... If someone needs to take a full day, get the gear ready head out, make the climb, don't hide it in an insane place. After the adventure it would be nice if the adventurer could actually find the cache. Quote Link to comment
Guest Irishmike3032 Posted September 10, 2001 Share Posted September 10, 2001 quote:Originally posted by AZMark:or maybe not a 5/5 but a terrain 5 difficulty 3 or so.... If someone needs to take a full day, get the gear ready head out, make the climb, don't hide it in an insane place. After the adventure it would be nice if the adventurer could actually find the cache. Good thought, my idea is making it hard to get there not find it. Quote Link to comment
Guest brokenwing Posted September 10, 2001 Share Posted September 10, 2001 So this could conceivably be a 1/5 cache. Hard to get to, but easy to find once you're there. Nothing wrong with that. Maybe what some folks objected to was a cache that was really difficult to find even after you get to the right location. That would be a 5/5. brokenwing Quote Link to comment
Guest Irishmike3032 Posted September 10, 2001 Share Posted September 10, 2001 quote:Originally posted by brokenwing:So this could conceivably be a 1/5 cache. Hard to get to, but easy to find once you're there. Nothing wrong with that. Maybe what some folks objected to was a cache that was really difficult to find even after you get to the right location. That would be a 5/5. brokenwing Thanks for the imput!!! Irishmike Quote Link to comment
Guest exConn Posted September 10, 2001 Share Posted September 10, 2001 There *is* room for caches such as this that serve the "difficult" niche. Geocaching attracts a diverse group of people. Sure, you won't get as many logs and the many families or those who just like a nice walk along trails will tend to stay away. But there are adventure seekers who would love to see more of these cache listings. I normally go out with my family, but it would be highly rewarding to leave the kids home occasionally to tackle one of these in my area. You would just need to be sure to make clear in your cache description about the dangers involved and that it is not for the casual 'cacher. To me, a cache can be placed *anywhere* on earth no matter how difficult as long as it is legal, does not impact the environment negatively, and is described properly to the seeker. There will always be someone who goes after it, especially a cache that hasn't been found yet... -exConn Quote Link to comment
Guest Irishmike3032 Posted September 10, 2001 Share Posted September 10, 2001 tend to stay away. But there are adventure seekers who would love to see more of these cache listings. I normally go out with my family, but it would be highly rewarding to leave the kids home occasionally to tackle one of these in my area. You would just need to be sure to make clear in your cache description about the dangers involved and that it is not for the casual 'cacher. To me, a cache can be placed *anywhere* on earth no matter how difficult as long as it is legal, does not impact the environment negatively, and is described properly to the seeker. There will always be someone who goes after it, especially a cache that hasn't been found yet... -exConn Thanks for your insight exconn. Like the user name!!! Quote Link to comment
Guest arffer Posted September 10, 2001 Share Posted September 10, 2001 While I would hardly consider going for a 1/5 cache (I'd kill myself or the S&R team looking for me), I'd love to go for a 5/1-2 cache. While I'm not in shape to have my body stretched to its limits, I'd love to have my searching abilities tested. Markwell's Hard as Pi has intrigued me since I first read it. I'm looking forward to tackling it, just wish it were closer. Perhaps that's why we find it hard to place normal stroll in the woods caches ourselves. Three of our caches don't have co-ordinates that lead to the actual cache. Rather, you need clues in the stories to find them; we try and make folks think a bit. Tales from the crypt Ode to the bearded lady Three blind mice [This message has been edited by arffer (edited 10 September 2001).] Quote Link to comment
Guest k2dave Posted September 10, 2001 Share Posted September 10, 2001 Any shlomo can rent a boat - why does that make it a 5? 5 should be for special skills - a boat rental requirement should be in hte description. Just my humble O ------------------ "A well-regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed." - Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution Quote Link to comment
Guest arffer Posted September 10, 2001 Share Posted September 10, 2001 k2dave, Not sure about your point. Who said renting a boat should be a 5? Read Row, Row, Row your boat, it is rated a two specifically BECAUSE you can rent a boat there. Now, if you had to provide your OWN boat, then its a 5, because YOU have to provide special equipment. Quote Link to comment
Guest ClayJar Posted September 10, 2001 Share Posted September 10, 2001 quote:Originally posted by arffer:While I would hardly consider going for a 5/1 cache (I'd kill myself or the S&R team looking for me), I'd love to go for a 1-2/5 cache. While I'm not in shape to have my body stretched to its limits, I'd love to have my searching abilities tested. Um, not to nitpick or anything, but I believe you have your ratings backward. You'd go for a 5(difficulty)/1-2(terrain) cache is what you were trying to say, right? Personally, I'd love to have some real 4-4.5 terrain caches to hunt. I don't want to have to rock climb or buy a canoe or anything, but I'd love to actually get a little closer to my limits. I've done a 10-mile hike (round trip) that was about 2500 feet from parking to peak, and it didn't phase me (although I didn't drink quite enough water on the way down... shame on me). If anyone ever makes a non-equipment-requiring really hard hiking cache, I just might drive all the way to it. Quote Link to comment
Guest ClayJar Posted September 10, 2001 Share Posted September 10, 2001 quote:Originally posted by k2dave:Any shlomo can rent a boat - why does that make it a 5? 5 should be for special skills - a boat rental requirement should be in the description. Just my humble O A boat rental does not a 5 make. Having to bring your own boat/canoe/kayak to get to a small island where the cache is, THAT would indeed make it a 5. Quote Link to comment
Guest arffer Posted September 10, 2001 Share Posted September 10, 2001 Clayjar, quote:Originally posted by ClayJar:Um, not to nitpick or anything, but I believe you have your ratings backward. You'd go for a 5(difficulty)/1-2(terrain) cache is what you were trying to say, right? Thanks! I edited my post. [This message has been edited by arffer (edited 10 September 2001).] Quote Link to comment
Guest bob_renner Posted September 10, 2001 Share Posted September 10, 2001 quote:Originally posted by ClayJar:...If anyone ever makes a non-equipment-requiring really hard hiking cache, I just might drive all the way to it. How about at the bottom of the Grand Canyon? http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=1521 Bob Quote Link to comment
Guest Cisupete Posted September 10, 2001 Share Posted September 10, 2001 ure. Assigning a point total to caches, I feel, would be much too difficult. Lord knows, navigating on this county's roads is, at times, far more treacherous than any hiking trail around. Quote Link to comment
Guest Vagabond Posted September 10, 2001 Share Posted September 10, 2001 Check (Blackbeards booty) and see what you think of it Quote Link to comment
Guest Cisupete Posted September 10, 2001 Share Posted September 10, 2001 Blackbeard's Booty sounds cool - and WET !! I wish it wasn't 3,000 miles away !! Quote Link to comment
Guest ClayJar Posted September 10, 2001 Share Posted September 10, 2001 quote:Originally posted by bob_renner:How about at the bottom of the Grand Canyon? http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=1521 Actually, that one is already on my TODO list. When I looked at it a few weeks ago, I got to see that the trail had some severe damage due to heavy rains, but they apparently finished and reopened it on September 1st. Now I just need a loooong weekend to get over there and hike it (actually, I'm saving the Grand Canyon for a future vacation). Quote Link to comment
Guest Wesley Horton Posted October 21, 2001 Share Posted October 21, 2001 You guys want a true 5/5 cache? I can think of one. It is a golf ball cache too! ?? Remember the golf ball that one of the astronauts hit on the moon? Now THAT should be a 5/5 cache! Quote Link to comment
Guest Pote Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 IrishMike, I, like you, was interested in a harder cache so I placed Malbon's Twin I rated it a 4.5 terrain because a cacher has to figure out how to take a shallow draft vessel to a suitable launch location, figure out when low tide will be, then get out and back before the location becomes impassable. It's only been found twice and one finder has my rowboat stored in his back yard. Even with his access to the water, it took them more than 2 hours and some special equipment to find it. Our city does have locations to rent kayaks and cannoes, but the cacher would still have to transport and launch to get to my cache. I personally like a challenge cache. I'm not scuba rated (yet) so I know that some caches I just can't attempt. I don't have ropes or live in Oz so there are others I know I can't attempt. That's part of the greatness of GCing. You can find caches that suit your abilities and interests and go for them. I'd encourage you to follow thru with your idea and place it. An island is certainly a barrier to some folks. I think there is an island cache in Michigan or Illinois and one near Charlotte, NC. It's a cool idea. Go for it, and if I'm up that way, I'll hunt it down! If you do make a 5/5, put a prize in it to make it worthwhile - I saw somebody had a 5/5 in Utah where there were dinner gift certificates at a nice restaraunt as the treasure. That was cool cuz it made the effort rewarding. Personally, I've done enough 1/1's with happy meal crap in them. They are nice for kids, don't get me wrong, but there should, IMO, be an even distribution of 1's to 5's, 2's to 4's, etc. Good luck with your placement! Quote Link to comment
Guest Gliderguy Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 I just placed my first cache in New Mexico and it was a 4/4. The one hit it has recieved so far agreed it was a fairly rated 4/4: http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=8291 Part of the difficulty is that a GPS lock is difficult in the vicinity of the crash, but not impossible. A little patience and/or moving around a bit will give one a decent shot at getting 3 sats. The 4 Terrain came from a little rock scrambling, 5 hour round trip time, and a 2500 ft elevation gain with the cache at 9000 ft MSL. I also consider the cache difficulty "derated" to a 3 if someone has to use the encrypted hints to find the cache. Quote Link to comment
Guest glenn95630 Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 Here is a 5/5 http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=8218 Here is a 5/4.5 http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=4145 Here is a 4.5/4.5 http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=3888 Maybe Clayjar will drive out here before the snow starts and give these last two a try! Quote Link to comment
Guest ClayJar Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 Hmm... when does the snow start? (Actually, if anyone has any suggestions about where to go on a driving/hiking trip coming from Louisiana from December 22 through January 1, I'm all ears.) Quote Link to comment
Guest Pote Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 I like the looks of Payback Glenn. I'm presuming it must be affixed to a bridge piling somehow? If I was a couple thousand miles closer... :^) Quote Link to comment
Guest kbraband Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 sed our own boat to get there. Even though the rating system suggested it should be a 5 for terrain, I gave it a 4.5 because someone may be able to walk across the ice during winter, depending on how cold it gets and how brave they feel. So far... no finders. Quote Link to comment
Codge13 Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 I am glad I found this thread, I have been wondering this myself. I live in the Charlotte, NC area and have got my fill of easier Cache's already. You might want to check before placing one though, I know you mentioned The AT, I know NC dosent allow them to be placed inside any state parks. Also since I am new to this what are the thoughts of combining Cache types. If a Cache is multi - staged and has a puzzle or puzzles to it what is it considered? I like a challenge so I would say make it as hard as you want to! Quote Link to comment
+sbell111 Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 I am glad I found this thread, I have been wondering this myself. I live in the Charlotte, NC area and have got my fill of easier Cache's already. You might want to check before placing one though, I know you mentioned The AT, I know NC dosent allow them to be placed inside any state parks. Also since I am new to this what are the thoughts of combining Cache types. If a Cache is multi - staged and has a puzzle or puzzles to it what is it considered? I like a challenge so I would say make it as hard as you want to! You get that this thread is going on eight years old, right? Quote Link to comment
Codge13 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I am glad I found this thread, I have been wondering this myself. I live in the Charlotte, NC area and have got my fill of easier Cache's already. You might want to check before placing one though, I know you mentioned The AT, I know NC dosent allow them to be placed inside any state parks. Also since I am new to this what are the thoughts of combining Cache types. If a Cache is multi - staged and has a puzzle or puzzles to it what is it considered? I like a challenge so I would say make it as hard as you want to! You get that this thread is going on eight years old, right? Dont guess i was paying attention to that thanks for the heads up Quote Link to comment
+Tahoein' Bunch Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 If you can hide one Someone will go for it, Me personally I can't climb and scramble any more my Knees' won't allow it but I can walk and look and light hill climbing. I would not do 5 terrain but would find a boat to borrow or rent to do an Island Cache. The thing is there is something for everyone out there and thts what makes it so fun if you like wally trash go get it if you like Caves or mines go find them. If you need a helo to get it Bring you check Book. Just have fun. Quote Link to comment
+ZSandmann Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Great ethers-of-the-past-Batman, this is the oldest grave dig I think I have ever observed. Now let's see how the conversation continues regardless. Quote Link to comment
Clan Riffster Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 (edited) Yup! Knock the dust off this sucker & see where it goes. Looking at the list of ancient names, there's only one I recognize. On topic: (on the off chance that the OP opts to revisit their 8 year old thread) Hide what you like. Like minded folks will enjoy it thoroughly. P&G fans might ignore it. No loss. Edited January 20, 2009 by Clan Riffster Quote Link to comment
+Gipsie Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Irish Mike, where in NJ are you located? There is a group of us from Jersey that LOVE exterme caching, but sre disappointed by the lack of it in our area. We have been known to travel many miles to get a 5/5 cache. This summer we are traveling 200 miles to spend a week and get a series of 5/5 caches. I brought a group of cachers on a 120 mile excursion to get an awesome cave cache for my 1000th. We are out there but there is a lack of caches to get. Hide it in Jersey and WE will come!!!! Quote Link to comment
+Vinny & Sue Team Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 (edited) Irish Mike, where in NJ are you located? There is a group of us from Jersey that LOVE exterme caching, but sre disappointed by the lack of it in our area. We have been known to travel many miles to get a 5/5 cache. This summer we are traveling 200 miles to spend a week and get a series of 5/5 caches. I brought a group of cachers on a 120 mile excursion to get an awesome cave cache for my 1000th. We are out there but there is a lack of caches to get. Hide it in Jersey and WE will come!!!! Gipsie, someone had resurrected a very old forum thrad, and thus that post from Irish Mike is one that was posted in 2001. Next, girl, get a grip on things! You know DARN WELL that you have never tackled a 5/5 cache in your life, and that all you are good for -- and even that would be only on your best days -- is a 2/2 cache at most! Anything harder would wipe you out! Wimpy girl! (P.S. I adore you!) . Edited January 20, 2009 by Vinny & Sue Team Quote Link to comment
+Gipsie Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Irish Mike, where in NJ are you located? There is a group of us from Jersey that LOVE exterme caching, but sre disappointed by the lack of it in our area. We have been known to travel many miles to get a 5/5 cache. This summer we are traveling 200 miles to spend a week and get a series of 5/5 caches. I brought a group of cachers on a 120 mile excursion to get an awesome cave cache for my 1000th. We are out there but there is a lack of caches to get. Hide it in Jersey and WE will come!!!! Gipsie, someone had resurrected a very old forum thrad, and thus that post from Irish Mike is one that was posted in 2001. Next, girl, get a grip on things! You know DARN WELL that you have never tackled a 5/5 cache in your life, and that all you are good for -- and even that would be only on your best days -- is a 2/2 cache at most! Anything harder would wipe you out! Wimpy girl! (P.S. I adore you!) . Oh! Oh!! Oh!!! OK I am getting the niceties out of the way first.... I did not notice the post was old...my bad. But I still agree with my own sentiments. However... WHAT!!!???!!! Wow! Is that a challenge, my friend? And to think of all the nice things I wrote about those two PUCs I went to... You know, the ones I DIDN'T complete...! Game on! I will be down there in the spring or summer (with or without my partner in crime)and will get ALL your caches. The PUC's. The SPC's. The other really easy ones you have down there. They will be so OFF MY LIST!!! And when it is over and done with I will send you an email saying...."IS THAT ALL YOU GOT?!?!" Be ready. my friend. I am coming for you.... (The adoration goes both ways!) Quote Link to comment
+Keruso Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 well aware of how old this thread is, but here's one for ya RACCOON LOOP..........HIKING 20 MILES FOR ONE SMILEY? enough said Quote Link to comment
+Vinny & Sue Team Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 (edited) Irish Mike, where in NJ are you located? There is a group of us from Jersey that LOVE exterme caching, but sre disappointed by the lack of it in our area. We have been known to travel many miles to get a 5/5 cache. This summer we are traveling 200 miles to spend a week and get a series of 5/5 caches. I brought a group of cachers on a 120 mile excursion to get an awesome cave cache for my 1000th. We are out there but there is a lack of caches to get. Hide it in Jersey and WE will come!!!! Gipsie, someone had resurrected a very old forum thrad, and thus that post from Irish Mike is one that was posted in 2001. Next, girl, get a grip on things! You know DARN WELL that you have never tackled a 5/5 cache in your life, and that all you are good for -- and even that would be only on your best days -- is a 2/2 cache at most! Anything harder would wipe you out! Wimpy girl! (P.S. I adore you!) . Oh! Oh!! Oh!!! OK I am getting the niceties out of the way first.... I did not notice the post was old...my bad. But I still agree with my own sentiments. However... WHAT!!!???!!! Wow! Is that a challenge, my friend? And to think of all the nice things I wrote about those two PUCs I went to... You know, the ones I DIDN'T complete...! Game on! I will be down there in the spring or summer (with or without my partner in crime)and will get ALL your caches. The PUC's. The SPC's. The other really easy ones you have down there. They will be so OFF MY LIST!!! And when it is over and done with I will send you an email saying...."IS THAT ALL YOU GOT?!?!" Be ready. my friend. I am coming for you.... (The adoration goes both ways!) First, you are just a clueless chick who has never successfully tackled anything harder than a 2/2 cache in your life, and even then, you usually need to use phone-a-friend! Next... sounds like not only I, but also some of the local cachers (who comprise the loose-knit cabal known as "Team Psycho") wanna come watch when you and your team tackle PUC #13 and PUC #14. Finally.... I think I wuv you! Please note that the operative word is "think", as in "I am not really sure..."! . Edited January 21, 2009 by Vinny & Sue Team Quote Link to comment
+Gipsie Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Irish Mike, where in NJ are you located? There is a group of us from Jersey that LOVE exterme caching, but sre disappointed by the lack of it in our area. We have been known to travel many miles to get a 5/5 cache. This summer we are traveling 200 miles to spend a week and get a series of 5/5 caches. I brought a group of cachers on a 120 mile excursion to get an awesome cave cache for my 1000th. We are out there but there is a lack of caches to get. Hide it in Jersey and WE will come!!!! Gipsie, someone had resurrected a very old forum thrad, and thus that post from Irish Mike is one that was posted in 2001. Next, girl, get a grip on things! You know DARN WELL that you have never tackled a 5/5 cache in your life, and that all you are good for -- and even that would be only on your best days -- is a 2/2 cache at most! Anything harder would wipe you out! Wimpy girl! (P.S. I adore you!) . Oh! Oh!! Oh!!! OK I am getting the niceties out of the way first.... I did not notice the post was old...my bad. But I still agree with my own sentiments. However... WHAT!!!???!!! Wow! Is that a challenge, my friend? And to think of all the nice things I wrote about those two PUCs I went to... You know, the ones I DIDN'T complete...! Game on! I will be down there in the spring or summer (with or without my partner in crime)and will get ALL your caches. The PUC's. The SPC's. The other really easy ones you have down there. They will be so OFF MY LIST!!! And when it is over and done with I will send you an email saying...."IS THAT ALL YOU GOT?!?!" Be ready. my friend. I am coming for you.... (The adoration goes both ways!) First, you are just a clueless chick who has never successfully tackled anything harder than a 2/2 cache in your life, and even then, you usually need to use phone-a-friend! Next... sounds like not only me, but also some of the local cachers (who comprise the loose-knit cabal known as "Team Psycho") wanna come watch when you and your team tackle PUC #13 and PUC #14. Finally.... I think I wuv you! Please note that the operative word is "think", as in "I am not really sure..."! . Team??? I don't need no stinkin' team! I will be heading down there and tackling them all. And while I agree with the "clueless chick" part most of the time, not in this case! You are GOING DOWN!!!! It is definitely GAME ON! There is one rule up here in South Jersey. Do not, under any circumstances, issue Gipsie a challenge. IT'S A RULE! I see that that rule has not made it south of the Mason-Dixon line yet. Oh, well. You will learn. This is getting VERY interesting. (Do I have to come down there and actually do them all for you to realize that you really, truly do wuv me? No matter, I know the truth!) Quote Link to comment
+Vinny & Sue Team Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Irish Mike, where in NJ are you located? There is a group of us from Jersey that LOVE exterme caching, but sre disappointed by the lack of it in our area. We have been known to travel many miles to get a 5/5 cache. This summer we are traveling 200 miles to spend a week and get a series of 5/5 caches. I brought a group of cachers on a 120 mile excursion to get an awesome cave cache for my 1000th. We are out there but there is a lack of caches to get. Hide it in Jersey and WE will come!!!! Gipsie, someone had resurrected a very old forum thrad, and thus that post from Irish Mike is one that was posted in 2001. Next, girl, get a grip on things! You know DARN WELL that you have never tackled a 5/5 cache in your life, and that all you are good for -- and even that would be only on your best days -- is a 2/2 cache at most! Anything harder would wipe you out! Wimpy girl! (P.S. I adore you!) . Oh! Oh!! Oh!!! OK I am getting the niceties out of the way first.... I did not notice the post was old...my bad. But I still agree with my own sentiments. However... WHAT!!!???!!! Wow! Is that a challenge, my friend? And to think of all the nice things I wrote about those two PUCs I went to... You know, the ones I DIDN'T complete...! Game on! I will be down there in the spring or summer (with or without my partner in crime)and will get ALL your caches. The PUC's. The SPC's. The other really easy ones you have down there. They will be so OFF MY LIST!!! And when it is over and done with I will send you an email saying...."IS THAT ALL YOU GOT?!?!" Be ready. my friend. I am coming for you.... (The adoration goes both ways!) First, you are just a clueless chick who has never successfully tackled anything harder than a 2/2 cache in your life, and even then, you usually need to use phone-a-friend! Next... sounds like not only me, but also some of the local cachers (who comprise the loose-knit cabal known as "Team Psycho") wanna come watch when you and your team tackle PUC #13 and PUC #14. Finally.... I think I wuv you! Please note that the operative word is "think", as in "I am not really sure..."! . Team??? I don't need no stinkin' team! I will be heading down there and tackling them all. And while I agree with the "clueless chick" part most of the time, not in this case! You are GOING DOWN!!!! It is definitely GAME ON! There is one rule up here in South Jersey. Do not, under any circumstances, issue Gipsie a challenge. IT'S A RULE! I see that that rule has not made it south of the Mason-Dixon line yet. Oh, well. You will learn. This is getting VERY interesting. (Do I have to come down there and actually do them all for you to realize that you really, truly do wuv me? No matter, I know the truth!) Clueless chick! . Quote Link to comment
+Gipsie Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Clueless chick! . This coming from a devious dude!!! Quote Link to comment
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